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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Dec 2012 : 05:41:50
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Several of you may have noticed by now how interested I am in the afterlife in the Realms and the fate of the souls of characters when they die. It's why I like places like Arvandor, because an elf will most likely go there, unless they worship a deity other than the Seldarine (anyone know how to pronounce that word, btw?), vs the Abyss, where they will likely be tortured. Some of my favorite drow characters ended up in Lolth's realm 
I know in the end they are fictional, but in the story they are real, and I think it shows the talent of the author if he/she can make us care about the characters. It's why I like the gods and one of the reasons I freaked when some of the gods died, because as far as I know, all the realms of the gods who died but Eilistraee's were destroyed, unless that god shared his realm with another deity that survived, such as Torm with Celestia. Even though Helm and Tyr died, Celestia remained. But were the souls who "lived" in the realms of the dead gods destroyed too? It's why I love Arvandor, why I want to know the "good place" Zak's soul is in, it's why I want Drizzt to end up with the CotH when he dies (and possibly Zak, too), it's why I was glad when E's realm was spared--and V's too, in a way, since it emerged with E's. It's also one thing I liked about the Avatar series: you got to see glimpses of the gods' realms. One of the reasons I liked Evermeet: Island of Elves, too.
I know some people probably don't care. The characters are fictional and don't effect real life. But they matter to me, and I care what happens to them, even after they're killed off. It eases the pain...a little And I will admit, their fate keeps me up at night sometimes (I need a life, I know). 
And, hey, it is the Realms, after all. 
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2012 : 18:11:34
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I pronounce it "sell-deh-reen."
It seems to me extremely unlikely that souls would be destroyed. That happens very rarely in the D&D multiverse, and is reserved for really, truly evil acts (like when a demilich consumes a soul to power itself). Because honestly, what could be worse than the destruction of a soul, particularly for another person's benefit? No, I think all those souls ended up scattered, homeless, and in great danger.
"Destroyed" is a relative word when it comes to divine realms. Several of those planes might have discorporated, but I don't think that means they're permanently gone. It's like the law of conservation of energy--energy doesn't just vanish, it turns into a different form. So it's very possible that those realms (and the souls therein) will re-emerge at some point, or that they've just been transferred somewhere else.
Remember also that souls are extremely valuable in the economy of certain parts of the planes, particularly the Nine Hells. You better believe Asmodeus would have tried to seize as many soon-to-be-homeless souls as he could get, and if any escaped from a breaking divine realm, they could be hunted down by devil bounty hunters or otherwise enslaved by any number of powerful beings.
A pretty cool story could be crafted out of a quest to locate the soul of a companion or loved one that was "settled" in a divine realm that has since been "destroyed." Where in the planes would that soul have ended up?
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2012 : 19:30:36
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A question to ask ED:
Do gods have wills? Do and can they give their realms, powers and/or worshiper's souls to a deity they trust until they are resurrected or for all eternity (Which ever comes first)? Cause even at this point gods know they can die, why else do they develop multiple resurrection gambits (like Bane does)? |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2012 : 20:22:32
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I would think 'orphaned souls' would fall under Kelemvor's purvey - perhaps he maintains some semblance of their former realms within his own (the way Hades is divided into different regions in mythology).
Cyric probably just didn't give a crap, and Myrkul probably just made them all live in his realm, but I can see Jergal acting in the same manner I described for Kelemvor above. They'd be held 'in trust' until the power returns, or a similar power manifests. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2012 : 21:50:38
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I'm largely in agreement with Markus and Erik. My feeling - like Erik's - is that the souls aren't destroyed, they are simply temporarily displaced. I think the Fugue Plane in FR is unique to all other planes though, since it acts as a holding area for souls. So, once a soul is displaced, they likely feel a VERY strong call to return to the Fugue Plane.
The difficulty in getting there could vary depending on how much Kelemvor intervenes. He oversees the Dead, so my guess is that he'd be sending someone to pick them up and return them to the Fugue Plane. (This, of course, doesn't mean that devils, demons, and the like couldn't prey upon the souls in the interim.)
Once they're back in the Fugue Plane Kelemvor likely sorts them out. They likely profess a desire to go to one deity or another... keeping in mind that virtually everyone worships and believes in ALL the gods. So, most people are going to have second, third, and fourth choices.
So, they arrive on the Fugue Plane, they begin telling Kelemvor where they'd like to go... then Kelemvor's agents work out an arrangement with the second choice deity... (Who may or may not accept the soul.) And eventually, this continues until all the new souls find a new home.
That's how I'd handle it. |
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Sossrim
Acolyte
USA
2 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2012 : 22:06:09
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I can see Kelemvor wanting to take in the souls of deities to whom there is not yet a successor; it's in character with his efforts to change the image of death he inherited from his evil predecessors, and with the abolition of the Wall of the Faithless in 4e it seems that Ao has loosened up on what Kel is allowed to do with souls who are in his care but are not his worshippers. If Ao or some other factor does prevent Kel from rescuing orphaned petitioners, perhaps they flock around the corpse of their deity as it drifts in the Astral Sea, waiting for his/her rebirth. It'd make for a neat adventure location.
What about Gods whose divine sparks are devoured, though? What happened to Moander's petitioners when Finder Wyvernspur stole and updated his portfolio, or to Azuth's worshippers when Asmodeus ate him (and somehow used his power to become something completely unrelated to that portfolio)? When Shar murdered Eshowdow and Ibrandul, stealing their portfolios, what happened to their petitioners, and to future worshippers of the two since their deaths were a secret and Shar continued to grant spells in their names? When a deity and all his/her power is utterly consumed, does the consumer also gain the souls that followed/will follow them? |
Edited by - Sossrim on 05 Dec 2012 03:00:20 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2012 : 23:12:42
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The god of the dead (in my campaign this is Jergal, not Kelemvor as I have a problem with mortals rising to greater godhood...Myrkul is still around btw ) would hold stewardship of all displaced souls until a proper disposition can be determined. However, some souls would be in dire peril as other entities seek to capture them for their own purposes. Jergal's agents would quickly move to rescue these souls of course.
I like the idea of some souls clinging to their fallen deity's carcass and the adventures this could create though  |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Euranna
Learned Scribe
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2012 : 23:36:53
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I agree with everyone that their souls would return to Kel and the Fugue Planes, if another deity does not step in and take them in (akin to Corellon and Eilistrae's death).
Which brings me to a question. Do we assume the Wendonai somehow had something to do with Eilistraee and Qilue being destroyed when Cavatina was not and actually collected in the Fugue Plans and taken home to Arvandor? Of course I am not sure how much power he had left when he only existed in the sword.
Of course, he was also in the sword when Cavatina was decapitated as well, so that does not make sense to me either.
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2012 : 00:23:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Sossrim
If Ao or some other factor does prevent Kel from rescuing orphaned petitioners, perhaps they flock around the corpse of their deity as it drifts in the Astral Sea, waiting for his/her rebirth. It'd make for a neat adventure location.
I love the idea that some souls choose to willingly flock around the corpse of their deity in the Astral awaiting their deities rebirth. I could definitely see this happening, and the suggestion is awesome. Some former clerics in life would most likely be prone to do this...
quote:
Originally posted by Sossrim
What about Gods whose divine sparks are devoured, though? What happened to Moander's petitioners when Finder Wyvernspur stole and updated his portfolio, or to Azuth's worshippers when Asmodeus ate him (and somehow used his power to become something completely unrelated to that portfolio)? When Shar murdered Eshowdow and Ibrandul, stealing their portfolios, what happened to their petitioners, and to future worshippers of the two since their deaths were a secret and Shar continued to grant spells in their names? When a deity and all his/her power is utterly consumed, does the consumer also gain the souls that followed/will follow them?
Those are very good questions. My personal opinion boils down to: "it depends." 
It depends on a number of factors, primarily how much power a soul has over their own destiny in the afterlife. Are they effectively imprisoned on the plane after death, or do they have some ability to leave?
The way I've normally handled things in the past is that planes don't go 'poof' when a deity dies. Although planes CAN be destroyed, this doesn't usually happen. They either fade over time or are slowly absorbed into domains controlled by other deities.
For example, when Shar slew Ibrandul, that didn't give her direct control over Ibrandyllaran (his home plane). It effectively became leaderless. After thinking about it; under normal circumstances I'd argue that the souls of the dead are effectively powerless before the deity. Their independence is forfeit and belongs to the deity that they serve; largely this means they're imprisoned on the home plane of that deity, and are therefore forced to endure what ever afterlife that deity offers. (Whether it's an amazing or horrific afterlife - it's what you're getting.)
However, when a deity dies the souls of the dead suddenly regain a measure of free will. They're allowed to leave - the warden is dead. My guess is that various deities (nominally allies of the dead deity), send servitors to offer the souls a chance to leave and live within their domain instead. Kelemvor likely sends servitors to offer them a chance to return to the Fugue Plane and sort things out there...
...then there are the less savory deities. Those who are sending servitors to stake a claim. I'm pretty sure servitors of Shar quickly found themselves in Ibrandyllaran, and were attempting to cajole, coerce, or forcefully capture the souls that once served Ibrandul back to her home plane - the Palace of Loss.
My guess is that as the souls begin to flee, get claimed elsewhere, or are captured various portions of Ibrandyllaran would begin to fall under the sway of the new deity. The area would likely be a battle ground between the servitors of various deities trying to assert themselves over the domain; with large portions falling into new divine domains. Those portions that fall under the sway of 'new management' so to speak, can be reforged to suit the desires of the deity staking the claim.
I don't imagine this is without risk, as it is likely possible that if a war for control over a fallen deities home plane went sour, it could be possible for it to begin to spill over into a deities home plane... at which point the gates would have to be closed.
It's unlikely that the deities would duke it out in person; unless they send some minor avatars to lead the charge.
This is one possibility, I think... I'm drawing inspiration from Planescape here. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7966 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2012 : 01:18:19
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I personally prefer "Sell-da-reen".
Planescape lore basically posits that (unless intercepted or claimed), the souls/spirits/anima of the dead drift (apparently through the Ethereal and Astral) across the planes, irrevocably toward whatever "afterlife" or "eternal rest/reward/punishment" their actions in life have earned for them ... for some this means whichever specific Outer Plane destination matches their alignment, for others this means a specific Outer Plane (or even Demiplane) Realm governed by some deity, pantheon, or other Power. Planars tend to refer to these "dead" people/creatures as Petitioners, and Petitioners can range from noble Pers and other exemplars of their alignment/faith all the way down to half-mindless gibbering larvae. Some varieties of Outer Planar species are reserved for those who lived/died in a particularly noble/vile fashion, typically "reborn" on the lowest rung of some Outsider/Celestial/Fiend heirarchy.
It is worth noting that the "cosmos" itself is reshaped in part by the beliefs of the living. Specifically, if a Prime believes in, say, some universe-spanning "World Tree" or "River/Ocean/Islands" version of the cosmos then that's what he'll encounter when he leaves the living world. Most DMs/authors/players forget that Planescape's "Great Wheel" cosmology (along with it's generic Yggdrasil, Olympus, and Rivers Oceanus/Styx) is intended to provide only a generic "default" setting. In short, the worlds beyond death are pretty much whatever you'd expect to find while living, and you may not be able to access places formed by the beliefs of people in other worlds. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Sossrim
Acolyte
USA
2 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2012 : 02:58:16
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
I like the idea of some souls clinging to their fallen deity's carcass and the adventures this could create though
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
I love the idea that some souls choose to willingly flock around the corpse of their deity in the Astral awaiting their deities rebirth. I could definitely see this happening, and the suggestion is awesome. Some former clerics in life would most likely be prone to do this...
Thanks!
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
-Lovely planar explanation-
I like this, and think it fits well with Realmslore. Shar's efforts to gain dominance over Ibrandyllaran without tipping off rival deities, opposed by the planar creatures and petitioners still loyal to their dead deity, would make for a great story. And since she could still be struggling to covertly consolidate her power there many years after Ibrandul's death, it could make for a great 3.5e era high-level adventure seed.
I also noticed in one of the WotC "ask the creators" threads that petitioners of Azuth and Mystra were rescued from the collapsing Dweomerheart and reassigned by Kelemvor to the remaining good deities. Kind of a shock to end up in someone else's afterlife, but with the other possibility being annihilation I doubt too many of them minded. In any case, it's support for the original theory.
Can't get the URL tag to work, but here's the link:
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19777426/The_one_and_only_34;Ask_the_Realms_authorsdesigners_thread34;_3?post_id=336696034#336696034
Oh, and I also say "Sell-da-reen". |
Edited by - Sossrim on 05 Dec 2012 03:03:49 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2012 : 04:31:25
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Most deities do not come in person to collect the souls of their worshipers (or "petitioners") from the Fugue Plane. Typically they send an agent of some kind, often an angel, on a periodic basis to collect any souls that are waiting there. Depending on the number of worshipers, an agent may report hourly, say for a greater god, or daily, or weekly, or maybe only once every 2 weeks for the least powerful of deities. Only the soul's patron god, or agent of that god, can interact with the soul and escort it out of the Fugue. (With the exception of certain devils, who may, by agreement with Kelemvor — in exchange for protection services against raiding demons — try to convince the soul to go with them instead.)
If a god dies, goes dormant, gets kidnapped or imprisoned, or becomes otherwise unavailable, then most likely his staff will continue to collect the souls of that patron's worshipers and bring them to the deity's divine dominion, per usual. They will basically continue on autopilot, or follow any standing instructions the deity has left them, until they are instructed otherwise, or the dominion starts to dissolve and fade away as divine dominions will do if they are not sustained by the divine power of their god.
If the god's domain is not crumbling, shrinking or fading away, then that is a good sign the deity is still alive somewhere, just unavailable for whatever reason. Either that, or another deity is sustaining his dominion by lending some of her power. I can think of one instance of this, during the time that Waukeen was imprisoned by Graz'zt, Liira sustained her realm, even actually relocated it to Brightwater (from, presumably, the House of Knowledge — although that is just conjecture.)
Once a god dies, that god's divine domain will start to run out of divine juice (mana, numen, incarnum, whatever you want to call it.) It should be able to maintain itself for a time. But eventually the domain will basically evaporate without a god to sustain it. Unless another god steps in and helps out, that domain will dissipate. This process has been described different ways. Sometimes the domain falls apart, just crumbles to bits, like in a bad action movie when they kill a load-bearing boss. Sometimes the domain just gradually fades and becomes intangible. Sometimes natural disasters and monsters rage through the domain (like tornadoes, volcanoes, earthquakes and lava). And sometimes, the domain just becomes unmoored from the astral, all the links become severed and it slips away into the deeper astral or some other "beyond" like a bubble. In very rare, special instances, it may be possible to find or stumble upon such lost planes or demi-planes, maybe through a lone portal that is still connected somehow, or some other creative means.
In the mean time, that god's servants, depending on alignment, training, instructions, and fortitude of character, will try to "hold down the fort." Lawful domains may insist on business as usual, playing "nearer my god to thee" and rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, so to speak. Evil domains might turn on each other. Chaotic domains might vie for power, or send petitioners out on quests to find the god or fight the perpetrators deemed responsible.
Descriptions of what happens to divine domains when their god dies can be found in On Hallowed Ground and also in The Players Guide to Faerûn. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2012 : 10:01:42
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Several of you may have noticed by now how interested I am in the afterlife in the Realms and the fate of the souls of characters when they die. It's why I like places like Arvandor, because an elf will most likely go there, unless they worship a deity other than the Seldarine (anyone know how to pronounce that word, btw?), vs the Abyss, where they will likely be tortured. Some of my favorite drow characters ended up in Lolth's realm
I know in the end they are fictional, but in the story they are real, and I think it shows the talent of the author if he/she can make us care about the characters. It's why I like the gods and one of the reasons I freaked when some of the gods died, because as far as I know, all the realms of the gods who died but Eilistraee's were destroyed, unless that god shared his realm with another deity that survived, such as Torm with Celestia. Even though Helm and Tyr died, Celestia remained. But were the souls who "lived" in the realms of the dead gods destroyed too? It's why I love Arvandor, why I want to know the "good place" Zak's soul is in, it's why I want Drizzt to end up with the CotH when he dies (and possibly Zak, too), it's why I was glad when E's realm was spared--and V's too, in a way, since it emerged with E's. It's also one thing I liked about the Avatar series: you got to see glimpses of the gods' realms. One of the reasons I liked Evermeet: Island of Elves, too.
I know some people probably don't care. The characters are fictional and don't effect real life. But they matter to me, and I care what happens to them, even after they're killed off. It eases the pain...a little And I will admit, their fate keeps me up at night sometimes (I need a life, I know).
And, hey, it is the Realms, after all.
Hmmm, hadn't really thought about it much until you just mentioned all those deific realms disappearing, but....... that could explain what happened to the weave. The weave draws upon soul energy, so the sudden destruction of this power base could have disrupted the "draw" into the weave, which would have fractured all the "systems" dependent upon this constant "flow". This also brings up another question.... where did this soul energy go? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2012 : 10:10:33
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| Hmmm, another idea popped in my head. What if those deific realms weren't destroyed? What if they were "transferred" to Abeir? Then, all the stories of the last hundred years that deities have been spinning may have all been lies wherein they've been trying to steal portfolios of those who are gone. Perhaps Talos and Gruumsh AREN'T the same, but Talos was pulled to Abeir, and Gruumsh was trying to capitalize on his disappearance until the other deities figured it out (and then Auril seized a lot of the power). Perhaps Dweomerheart has been shunted into Abeir this whole time and Savras is not dead. Perhaps it was all the greatest illusion ever pulled, and Leira and Mask were behind it? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2012 : 00:32:06
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Thanks for the contributions, everyone! I appreciate it. You've all made great points, I don't know who to quote (and thanks Erik, Sossrim, and Ayrik for the pronunciation of the Seldarine. I kept pronouncing it "Seld-ar-eye-n" but that didn't sound right).
If I remember correctly, in GHotR, it mentioned the Dwmeomerheart disintergrated or something, so I've since wondered what had happened to the souls of followers of the "deceased" deities. The could wind up back on the Fogue Plane, or be sent into the Astral Plane. If a soul is energy, and some spell or something "destroys" that soul, if energy can't be destroyed, then maybe parts of that soul are simply...dispersed? The soul is destroyed in the sense it is no longer complete or "sentient", but its parts aren't completely gone? I don't see that as a good fate either, though, nor that of a soul being snatched by a demon and taken to the Nine Hells.
Allied deities might take hold of another god's realm if that god dies (like Corellon did with Eilistraee), or as I said, if more than one deity shares the same realm (such as is the case with Celestia). All--or at least the majority of souls--end up on the Fogue Plane, and then wait for their deity--or agent of, as Gray said--to claim them. Such was the case during Lolth's Silence in WotSQ, if I remember. For those on Faerun who don't worship a specific deity, but invoke certain ones at certain times--like Tymora for good luck--they wait for whatever deity comes to claim them, based on their personality and such (and assuming a demon doesn't get there first and "bargain" for the soul). Under what circumstances would a soul end up just...wandering the Fogue Plane, aside from perhaps the death of their god? Would they just wander until claimed by some god or demon, be put in the Wall of the Faithless and False, or just hang out, so to speak? Or if they had a deity but forsook it and did not end up following another.
But then...wait, DO in fact the majority of souls come to the Fogue Plane first, or are some taken directly to their god's realm? It sounds like elves go straight to Arvandor, or what about clerics? Would a cleric of, say, Sune have to wait for her or her agent to come fetch it, or would that cleric's soul go straight to Brightwater?
And what Sleyvas said made me think: what if the essences of the "dead" deities were indeed dispered in Faerun or Abeir? Some artifacts of a dead god's (like Helm) still have power in them. Is it indeed just the rememants of that imbued power, which will evenutally fade, or is it being fueled somehow by the deity?
And Erik, that would indeed be an interesting story. Write it!
Oh, and Erik, that would be an interesting story! Write it!
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7966 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2012 : 00:49:32
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| Belief, and moral/ethical alignment properties, is the very stuff of the Outer Planes, call it the "Fifth Element" which shapes and flows the (four, or five, or six, or whatever) "Cardinal elements" which exist in the "Prime Material" world. Most dead "Petitioners" aspire to ultimately merge their spiritual essence with a deity/Power of some sort, and if they "die" (again) on their Outer Plane their essence dissolves into the stuff of the plane, not unlike how their physical bodies dissolved into the stuff of the physical world. Deities/Powers (and clever Celestials/Fiends/etc) like to have a (Planar) Realm where they "live" their daily lives in the presence of the "dead" folk who sustain their particular belief/power source. Realms (and those within them) tend to dissolve back into a Plane when not maintained by a Power. Or so sayeth Planescape lore. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2012 : 03:16:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Most deities do not come in person to collect the souls of their worshipers (or "petitioners") from the Fugue Plane. Typically they send an agent of some kind, often an angel, on a periodic basis to collect any souls that are waiting there. Depending on the number of worshipers, an agent may report hourly, say for a greater god, or daily, or weekly, or maybe only once every 2 weeks for the least powerful of deities. Only the soul's patron god, or agent of that god, can interact with the soul and escort it out of the Fugue. (With the exception of certain devils, who may, by agreement with Kelemvor — in exchange for protection services against raiding demons — try to convince the soul to go with them instead.)
If a god dies, goes dormant, gets kidnapped or imprisoned, or becomes otherwise unavailable, then most likely his staff will continue to collect the souls of that patron's worshipers and bring them to the deity's divine dominion, per usual. They will basically continue on autopilot, or follow any standing instructions the deity has left them, until they are instructed otherwise, or the dominion starts to dissolve and fade away as divine dominions will do if they are not sustained by the divine power of their god.
If the god's domain is not crumbling, shrinking or fading away, then that is a good sign the deity is still alive somewhere, just unavailable for whatever reason. Either that, or another deity is sustaining his dominion by lending some of her power. I can think of one instance of this, during the time that Waukeen was imprisoned by Graz'zt, Liira sustained her realm, even actually relocated it to Brightwater (from, presumably, the House of Knowledge — although that is just conjecture.)
Once a god dies, that god's divine domain will start to run out of divine juice (mana, numen, incarnum, whatever you want to call it.) It should be able to maintain itself for a time. But eventually the domain will basically evaporate without a god to sustain it. Unless another god steps in and helps out, that domain will dissipate. This process has been described different ways. Sometimes the domain falls apart, just crumbles to bits, like in a bad action movie when they kill a load-bearing boss. Sometimes the domain just gradually fades and becomes intangible. Sometimes natural disasters and monsters rage through the domain (like tornadoes, volcanoes, earthquakes and lava). And sometimes, the domain just becomes unmoored from the astral, all the links become severed and it slips away into the deeper astral or some other "beyond" like a bubble. In very rare, special instances, it may be possible to find or stumble upon such lost planes or demi-planes, maybe through a lone portal that is still connected somehow, or some other creative means.
In the mean time, that god's servants, depending on alignment, training, instructions, and fortitude of character, will try to "hold down the fort." Lawful domains may insist on business as usual, playing "nearer my god to thee" and rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, so to speak. Evil domains might turn on each other. Chaotic domains might vie for power, or send petitioners out on quests to find the god or fight the perpetrators deemed responsible.
Descriptions of what happens to divine domains when their god dies can be found in On Hallowed Ground and also in The Players Guide to Faerûn.
This whole post suddenly makes me wonder if Ravenloft is one of those unmoored divine realms... |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2012 : 04:06:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Most deities do not come in person to collect the souls of their worshipers (or "petitioners") from the Fugue Plane. Typically they send an agent of some kind, often an angel, on a periodic basis to collect any souls that are waiting there. Depending on the number of worshipers, an agent may report hourly, say for a greater god, or daily, or weekly, or maybe only once every 2 weeks for the least powerful of deities. Only the soul's patron god, or agent of that god, can interact with the soul and escort it out of the Fugue. (With the exception of certain devils, who may, by agreement with Kelemvor — in exchange for protection services against raiding demons — try to convince the soul to go with them instead.)
If a god dies, goes dormant, gets kidnapped or imprisoned, or becomes otherwise unavailable, then most likely his staff will continue to collect the souls of that patron's worshipers and bring them to the deity's divine dominion, per usual. They will basically continue on autopilot, or follow any standing instructions the deity has left them, until they are instructed otherwise, or the dominion starts to dissolve and fade away as divine dominions will do if they are not sustained by the divine power of their god.
If the god's domain is not crumbling, shrinking or fading away, then that is a good sign the deity is still alive somewhere, just unavailable for whatever reason. Either that, or another deity is sustaining his dominion by lending some of her power. I can think of one instance of this, during the time that Waukeen was imprisoned by Graz'zt, Liira sustained her realm, even actually relocated it to Brightwater (from, presumably, the House of Knowledge — although that is just conjecture.)
Once a god dies, that god's divine domain will start to run out of divine juice (mana, numen, incarnum, whatever you want to call it.) It should be able to maintain itself for a time. But eventually the domain will basically evaporate without a god to sustain it. Unless another god steps in and helps out, that domain will dissipate. This process has been described different ways. Sometimes the domain falls apart, just crumbles to bits, like in a bad action movie when they kill a load-bearing boss. Sometimes the domain just gradually fades and becomes intangible. Sometimes natural disasters and monsters rage through the domain (like tornadoes, volcanoes, earthquakes and lava). And sometimes, the domain just becomes unmoored from the astral, all the links become severed and it slips away into the deeper astral or some other "beyond" like a bubble. In very rare, special instances, it may be possible to find or stumble upon such lost planes or demi-planes, maybe through a lone portal that is still connected somehow, or some other creative means.
In the mean time, that god's servants, depending on alignment, training, instructions, and fortitude of character, will try to "hold down the fort." Lawful domains may insist on business as usual, playing "nearer my god to thee" and rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, so to speak. Evil domains might turn on each other. Chaotic domains might vie for power, or send petitioners out on quests to find the god or fight the perpetrators deemed responsible.
Descriptions of what happens to divine domains when their god dies can be found in On Hallowed Ground and also in The Players Guide to Faerûn.
This whole post suddenly makes me wonder if Ravenloft is one of those unmoored divine realms...
Well, some brief plot points supporting Death and the Domain of Necropolis in the 3e material from White Wolf suggested that the entire region of RAVENLOFT might be a lingering manifestation of a creator-deity's proto-world.
Which, given the earlier interpretations of the proto-matter elements of Ethereal Plane, might not be so far off the mark. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2012 : 05:59:39
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Several of you may have noticed by now how interested I am in the afterlife in the Realms and the fate of the souls of characters when they die. It's why I like places like Arvandor, because an elf will most likely go there, unless they worship a deity other than the Seldarine (anyone know how to pronounce that word, btw?), vs the Abyss, where they will likely be tortured. Some of my favorite drow characters ended up in Lolth's realm
I know in the end they are fictional, but in the story they are real, and I think it shows the talent of the author if he/she can make us care about the characters. It's why I like the gods and one of the reasons I freaked when some of the gods died, because as far as I know, all the realms of the gods who died but Eilistraee's were destroyed, unless that god shared his realm with another deity that survived, such as Torm with Celestia. Even though Helm and Tyr died, Celestia remained. But were the souls who "lived" in the realms of the dead gods destroyed too? It's why I love Arvandor, why I want to know the "good place" Zak's soul is in, it's why I want Drizzt to end up with the CotH when he dies (and possibly Zak, too), it's why I was glad when E's realm was spared--and V's too, in a way, since it emerged with E's. It's also one thing I liked about the Avatar series: you got to see glimpses of the gods' realms. One of the reasons I liked Evermeet: Island of Elves, too.
I know some people probably don't care. The characters are fictional and don't effect real life. But they matter to me, and I care what happens to them, even after they're killed off. It eases the pain...a little And I will admit, their fate keeps me up at night sometimes (I need a life, I know).
And, hey, it is the Realms, after all.
You know, when you bring up Zak, specifically, I have to scratch my head and wonder why the guy didn't end up on the wall of the faithless when he died. There's no indication that he actually worshiped any of the Seldarine and he certainly didn't worship Lolth.
It's one of those things that grinds my gears because it's a pet character from the novels being given special treatment by an author for no reason that makes real sense in universe. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2012 : 06:19:13
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I'm in agreement that it would be pretty obscenely rare for a soul to be destroyed in D&D (as opposed to damaged, lost, scattered, digested and recycled in various ways and circumstances). Pathfinder is a bit different with its NE daemon race being active soul-devourers, but even there I'd still hew to the side of rare for obliteration to be irreversable.
Still, lost souls might end up being used in horrific ways (I imagine a veritable buffet in Gehenna after Illsensine's domain collapsed following the events of Dead Gods, and the 'loths having a fire sale on stolen souls available to any and all buyers).
I could probably think of only a handful of entities capable of obliterating a soul forever (Lady of Pain, the eldest of the first generation of outsiders that existed prior to the arrival of mortal souls and gods, and possible, -possibly- overpowers)
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Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2012 : 06:40:24
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| I believe it's mentioned that Kezef destroys the souls of those he devours utterly, beyond even the god's ability to restore them. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2012 : 07:12:03
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It is drilled into drow that Lolth is the only true deity. Many males--not all, it sounded like Ryld worshiped her--probably do not worship Lolth, and only pretend to in order to avoid further punishment by the matrons. I'm not sure if mortals know about the Wall, but many of them do not worship a particular deity, but will invoke the name of one depending on the circumstances (such as Tymora or Sune). Myrkul may have originally designed the Wall for those who had no deity, but I think its ultimate person was to punish those who didn't acknowledge the gods at all.
It is true that Zak could fall into this category--many drow could, actually. They are intent on seeking power in life and surviving being back stabbed. A lot of them probably dread the day they entered the Fogue Plane and Lolth came to claim them. Zak was certainly not a "good drow" like his son or the Eilistraeens (I think he would have made a decent Vhaeraunite though). This does not mean however, that he couldn't have been claimed by another deity before becoming part of the Wall, if that was to be his original fate. Some other deity could have been watching him, and decided to take him in. There are probably numerous cases where the "faithless and false" end up not going up on the Wall. Gods--or their servitors--could take them in before they become another brick. This could have been the case with Zak. A god could have become interested in him. This is all speculation, of course, but it makes sense to me.
Personally, I think Kelemvor should have done away with the Wall when he became the God of Death. Seems a bit much to me. I'm fine with there being evil deities, but the God of Death should be neutral, IMO, which is why I like Kelemvor. He is fair, but not to the point where he's goody-goody. If a person worships an evil god, he doesn't stop that god from taking that person's soul, but he also doesn't punish needlessly. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2012 : 07:21:40
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Kelemvor tried getting rid of the Wall. It...didn't work out so well.
The way I've always interpreted the Wall is that it isn't a punishment. It's certainly not a reward, and does function as something of a deterrent for those who seek to go against the gods, but really all it is is recycling. The souls of the faithless have no where to go(souls of the false go to their patron's realm to be punished).
Zak could have conceivably been picked up by a deity who took an interest in him, but I've always seen this as a cop out for avoiding unpleasant fates for fan favorite characters. But that's just me. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2012 : 07:28:04
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Oh did he? Huh, I don't remember that. Did something happen when he tried, or it just plain didn't work?
Hmm, I seem to remember in the Avatar series (forgot which book) that those on the Wall were in pain, and it would be a punishment in that you're a stuck. If they were recycled, it would mean they'd eventually go somewhere else (or even get reincarnated) right?
Well, I'm a fan girl (though hopefully not the annoying kind that squeal lol), so I'm happy with the cop out, but like you said for yourself, that's just me. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2012 : 07:39:46
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It was the plot of one of the video games, and I believe there was a novelization to go along with it. If memory serves, without the Wall the gods began to lose their powers as there was no longer incentive to worship them, or something like that, so they forced him to put it back up. And I think there was something about the multiverse destabizing or something. It's been a while.
I tend to write off most of what the Avatar series says as a bad dream. Though I'm sure I've seen another source that paints melting into the wall as simply a bland, boring existence until your consciousness faded away, I'd need to go digging for that, though. As for what happens to them, I believe it's variously been described as either melding with the plane itself or reincarnation, but I think it's one of those things that's better left unanswered in the interests of preserving some mystery.
And for me, I just don't like it when characters blatantly escape without facing the consequences of their actions. Zak made a choice to either not worship or pay lip service to a goddess without seeking alternatives. The consequence for that is the Wall. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2012 : 07:49:14
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Oh, I see. The losing of incentive to worship makes sense, though I'm not so sure about the multiverse destabilizing (sounds somewhat like the death of Mystra...)
I liked the later books in the Avatar series. The first one felt really slow and it was hard for me to get into. I liked when Mask started getting involved. I've always liked Mask.
Hmm, I can see your point, even if I disagree. It's true that Zak didn't even pay lip service to a deity, but then again, maybe he didn't know other deities existed, or at least didn't see them as true deities, though I suppose that could be an insult to them, too. It could really be based on circumstances, and I'm probably stretching it here, but drow might be a special case, just because of their lifestyle and the fact that Lolth is, well, Lolth. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2012 : 07:55:38
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I think souls are a type of energy - a universal energy that many - deities and outsiders being the most common - have learned to tap-into. This is why fiends use them as a form of currency.
However, in another way souls are like containers filled with water, and as a person's life goes on it is possible the substance gets 'cloudy'... even murky... there is where 'taint' comes in. Its almost like a soul having either a positive or negative charge, except its not entirely either/or.
I feel this way because sometimes in stories we see a fiend is harmed by a 'pure' soul, and yet in most stories we see them eating up souls like they are candy. I think thats why they need to corrupt them first. It has nothing to do with where they'll end up (especially true in a D&D setting), but rather, what flavor they are. A completely pure soul is like poison to a fiend, whereas a badly tainted one (a serial murderer) is quite tasteless and boring. So they prefer to 'tarnish' somewhat pure souls, at least a little, so that they go down 'spicey'.
The idea is to consume souls* that are somewhat different from your own nature, but not so different as to be anathema. So a devil might prefer to ingest a CE soul, while a demon might prefer to dine on a LE soul. They are more 'flavorful' when they are are a different nature then the consumer. And by 'consume' I mean absorb, which is different then normal eating. The soul still exists - its just trapped as part of something more powerful. The fiend (or deity, or whatever) gets the energy, but its more like its 'on loan' (it should be possible to rescue a 'consumed' soul from a fiend). Even in the case of Kezef I think there should be some remote possibility. What I think is things like Kezef, Ithyak-Ugly, River Styx, etc is that it corrupts the 'persona' of the soul, like spiritual acid. Whats left is nothing like what went in - its just the energy with no trace of the person (if you wait too long).
So then Styx becomes part of the universal process of decay and new growth - the souls are stripped of their 'baggage' and the river dumps all that energy back into the cosmic pool, like a giant soul-smelter. The river feeds the great tree and new souls are born from there. Even Kezef may play a part - when he defecates perhaps his 'leavings' helps fertilize the "soil of the universe", also helping the Tree grow new souls.
Okay... I'm tired, and I'm not sure if I am being deeply philosophical or silly at this point. Anyway, my point was that even when a soul is considered obliterated, the energy should still be there. It just might become impossible to restore a person after that. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Dec 2012 16:23:49 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2012 : 08:00:48
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I've also seen at least one theory, and I don't know if this was ever proposed in an official work, that the Wall existed partly to prevent Asmodeus from attaining divinity; there was some old fluff that said he devoured the souls of the faithless in order to heal the wounds he sustained during the fall, and that once he became fully healed he would achieve godhood, at which point we'd all be doomed. Of course, Asmodeus would later achieve godhood through other methods.
I think part of the problem is RAS' writing, though to be fair I don't know how much of this is executive meddling and how much of it is him simplifying things, but I never liked that he potrayed "evil" societies as more or less monotheistic. Orcs and drow have(or had, in the drow's case) more gods than just Gruumsh and Lolth, though those are the only ones RAS ever touches on. Though to be fair I don't know how much of the drow pantheon was detailed at the time he was writing the dark elf trilogy, though by the time he got to Hunter's Blades, the orc pantheon had been fully detailed so more than Gruumsh should have been mentioned.
Point being, the only reason Zak had never heard of other deities outside of Lolth is that either RAS wasn't aware of them, they weren't fully detailed at the time, or that RAS simply didn't want to go into the politics between rival clergies and thought making Menzo a monotheistic society would make the story simpler. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2012 : 08:22:39
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We're going to have to disagree when it comes to Zak (I'm a sap and want my favorite characters to have good afterlives, but that's me), but I've noticed RAS doesn't mention gods much at all, other than Lolth, Gruumsh, Moradin, or Mielikki--and Asmodeus in the Neverwinter books--or if he does, he just calls them "the gods". Unless memory fails me, he doesn't mention the Seldarine at all, except in the short story "Comrade's At Odds", which is a bit odd considering how much he's dealt with elves. This, again, is just me, because I like the gods.
@Markustay: okay, those were some interesting images lol. I would think being trapped in a fiend would be...unpleasant, but the last part kind of goes with what I said about if a soul is energy, then a "destroyed" soul is one whose energy is dispersed, and so it loses its "sentience", but doesn't completely cease to exist. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2012 : 11:59:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Point being, the only reason Zak had never heard of other deities outside of Lolth is that either RAS wasn't aware of them, they weren't fully detailed at the time, or that RAS simply didn't want to go into the politics between rival clergies and thought making Menzo a monotheistic society would make the story simpler.
Not "they weren't fully detailed at the time".... they weren't detailed at all at the time.
The Dark Elf Trilogy
(chronologically precedes the Icewind Dale trilogy)
Homeland (1990) (Between 1297DR and 1328DR)
Exile (1990) (Between 1338DR and 1340DR)
Sojourn (1991) (Between 1340DR and 1347DR)
The "new" drow deities were first introduced in the 1991 published 2nd edition "drow of the underdark" (unless someone can find an earlier source). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2012 : 18:05:45
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Point being, the only reason Zak had never heard of other deities outside of Lolth is that either RAS wasn't aware of them, they weren't fully detailed at the time, or that RAS simply didn't want to go into the politics between rival clergies and thought making Menzo a monotheistic society would make the story simpler.
Not "they weren't fully detailed at the time".... they weren't detailed at all at the time.
The Dark Elf Trilogy
(chronologically precedes the Icewind Dale trilogy)
Homeland (1990) (Between 1297DR and 1328DR)
Exile (1990) (Between 1338DR and 1340DR)
Sojourn (1991) (Between 1340DR and 1347DR)
The "new" drow deities were first introduced in the 1991 published 2nd edition "drow of the underdark" (unless someone can find an earlier source).
I believe you are correct. I also believe that FOR2 The Drow of the Underdark was created into order to cash in on the rising interest in drow. While I do dislike the ever-growing emphasis on drow, that sourcebook remains a personal fave. |
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Souls
