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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Nov 2012 : 23:55:50
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With FR designers watching these boards, maybe it's best if they heard more of what we wanted.
Personally, I enjoyed Elminster's Forgotten Realms. To the point where I want to see a 2nd installment of such a product. There're some things I wish to see written in it this time around:
---Spelljamming
---Constellations
---Planar Relations
---In-depth info on the Creator Races
---In-depth on the Giants and Dragons time period
---Ancient Empires info
I know these kinds of products written by Ed don't focus on regions, as that would be more suited for Regional books or articles or whatever. (though an "Elminster's Atlas to the Forgotten Realms" would be awesome!)
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Euranna
Learned Scribe
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2012 : 00:29:49
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| ;) Can I hope for more El enraged? He deserves to get it out and handle some sh*t. :D |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2012 : 02:58:27
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| Of course what I want to know in a future sourcebook are the stuff Elminster (Ed) talked about at the end of the book in the afterword (such as those hidden, overlapping, Doppleganger Kingdoms). That kind of stuff is just what we need. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2012 : 14:38:36
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Except for Spelljamming, I agree with your list. I can fit magic and monsters into a normal Einsteinian universe model, but SJ just doesn't work for me (it breaks too many rules).
Definitely more info on the inter-relationships (and wars) between Dragons, Giants, and dwarves. FR is starved for new dwarf-lore.
I don't think Ed could get into much detail with the Ancient Empires (or even the Old Empires), because he had some very different ideas about them then TSR/WotC did, and I think the purpose of these books is to blend Ed's vision with that of the published Realms (the mention of Cyric, for instance). They won't print anything that disagrees with already printed material. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2012 : 16:31:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Except for Spelljamming, I agree with your list. I can fit magic and monsters into a normal Einsteinian universe model, but SJ just doesn't work for me (it breaks too many rules).
Now I feel I've got to switch places in the argument with you, Markus  (relative to the one with the time-keeping spiders).
Teleportation already breaks causality when relativity is taken into account, for instance. You can't do much worse as far as physics is concerned.
Edit: Just making this one comment, and reserving space for when my copy of the book arrives so I can answer the OP. |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
Edited by - Mapolq on 10 Nov 2012 17:57:46 |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1266 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2012 : 17:36:42
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| Would love to see regional volumes done in the same style as Elminster's Forgotten Realms...I know this would become very Volo's Guide to "X" part 2 but those are among my very favorite books. |
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rjfras
Learned Scribe
261 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2012 : 18:46:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Razz
With FR designers watching these boards, maybe it's best if they heard more of what we wanted.
Personally, I enjoyed Elminster's Forgotten Realms. To the point where I want to see a 2nd installment of such a product. There're some things I wish to see written in it this time around:
---Spelljamming
---Constellations
---Planar Relations
---In-depth info on the Creator Races
---In-depth on the Giants and Dragons time period
---Ancient Empires info
I know these kinds of products written by Ed don't focus on regions, as that would be more suited for Regional books or articles or whatever. (though an "Elminster's Atlas to the Forgotten Realms" would be awesome!)
Constellations, yes. The other planets in Realmspace, yes.
Spelljamming, no.
I really don't see a need for in-depth info on ancient empires, other time periods or creatures that no longer exist in today's realms. A few people would appreciate the lore and may buy it, but unless you can use it in your gaming, it's not going to be a big seller and that is what we need to keep these kinds of books being published. Things that will sell well.
Some things I would like to see (for a wider area of Faerun and not just Cormyr and the Heartlands):
- non-real world animals that exist in the realms besides the rothe
- unpublished realms "monsters"
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2012 : 19:30:21
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quote:
Originally posted by rjfras
I really don't see a need for in-depth info on ancient empires, other time periods or creatures that no longer exist in today's realms. A few people would appreciate the lore and may buy it, but unless you can use it in your gaming, it's not going to be a big seller and that is what we need to keep these kinds of books being published. Things that will sell well.
While I agree with your last point, I respectfully hope you're utterly alone in the first part. The 30k+ years of Realms history provides a rich tapestry not merely for standalone historical novels and awkward time-travel-reliant adventures, but for entire campaign settings. Personally, I would like to see the Heartlands circa 1-100 DR around the raising of the Standing Stone and the foundation of Cormyr. I'd like to see the Inner Sea nations when Jhaamdath was a major power. I'd like to see the South, during the first and/or second empires of Mulhorand. I'd like to *write* an entire Realms campaign setting, set in the height of Imaskar.
You're right about the "unless you can use it" part but my point is that done right, you will be able to use it. The little one-off things we've gotten in the past are insufficient. I believe, if the Arcane Age line was renamed and featured more complete settings --meaning something at least as broad as the original gray box, for a specific time in the Realms' past or future, plus supporting novels and adventures-- it would absolutely sell. If it doesn't... ur doin it rong.
Just my two bits of course. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2012 : 19:39:30
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Planar relations and all the intrigue over who controls important gates described
Jhaamdath, Imaskar, Raumathar, Narfell remains, and some new ancient realms
Magic technology and how magic affects everyday life |
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Euranna
Learned Scribe
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2012 : 22:57:18
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On the serious side, I would like to get more history/ancient realms info. For a historical reference, and an option to play in that era if we wanted (like in the Myth Drannor supplement).
I would love more information on some of the NPC's that are doing things in the background, but not stat blocks. Like Larloch..his relationship with Mystryl/Mystra, more of his past, etc. Granted El's percpective is always biased, but he does get around.  .
I would also love to read some of Storm's more "interesting" songs. heehee |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6647 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2012 : 01:46:10
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I want a follow-up in the exact same style but focusing on different topics.
I'm not at all interested in planar lore, save and except how that lore is specific to the Realms.
I would absolutely love to see historical lore - naturally.
I'd very much love to see more information on the Art - variant magic systems, long-lost spell books and items and famous mages and their works. Other very welcome material would be lore on druids and rangers, unique weapons and armor of the Realms, more information on trade routes and what goods are shipped where, lost treasures of the Realms, more local power groups and secret societies and finally, more of what we've already been given!!!
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 11 Nov 2012 01:46:57 |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2012 : 05:10:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Except for Spelljamming, I agree with your list. I can fit magic and monsters into a normal Einsteinian universe model, but SJ just doesn't work for me (it breaks too many rules).
Definitely more info on the inter-relationships (and wars) between Dragons, Giants, and dwarves. FR is starved for new dwarf-lore.
I don't think Ed could get into much detail with the Ancient Empires (or even the Old Empires), because he had some very different ideas about them then TSR/WotC did, and I think the purpose of these books is to blend Ed's vision with that of the published Realms (the mention of Cyric, for instance). They won't print anything that disagrees with already printed material.
Spelljamming is necessary unless you have a different suggestion for world traveling? There is FR lore regarding the solar system, the people living on Selune, and all the planets having their own creatures/cultures and each being vast in environment that can't really be entirely ignored. Also, the illithids and quite a few other creatures in the Realms all came from "the sea of night" and the only method is via spelljamming.
I don't agree with having everything otherworldly be from another plane. How do you propose to keep all of the lore but get rid of...magic spaceships? Stargates maybe? |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2012 : 05:13:34
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Yes, another Magic chapter would be great to see. I feel like the one in the current book was rather...short.
Planar relations I feel is extremely important; for one, it hasn't been discussed in enough detail concerning the Realms. Another reason is because the Realms has always been heavily intruded by planar beings and plots and adventurers do, almost always, end up plane traveling themselves if they become experienced enough. It only makes sense that we learn the fundamental roles the planes have on the Realms and vice versa. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2012 : 15:34:16
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I just don't need spaceships. I've gone over this before, in other threads, a multitude of times. You can use the ethereal, astral, Shadow, River Styx, or even the Feywild to 'sail between the worlds'.
Until Ao lifts the ban on tech, I see no need for flying through space - at that point its just not fantasy anymore (IMO).
On Topic:
I see some folks want more historic bits, and other argue about more useful material. I myself am torn on this point right now. As a fan of the Realms, I love every juicy bit of lore I can get my hands on, but as a DM, I really don't need any more. Sometimes I feel as if FR has slipped from an actual game setting to a theoretical one. The material is no longer aimed at folks who play the game, but rather, folks who like to talk about it.
Just my 2 cents, for what it's worth. I think I have come full-circle yet again, and and am now seeing (perhaps for the first time) precisely what the 4e team was up against when they made all their (now lambasted) decisions. At the end of the day, all they wanted was for folks to play D&D again.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Nov 2012 15:36:09 |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2012 : 17:31:56
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Agreed. That's why I think more "marginal" lore is the way to go with the Realms now. I can't see how one would market a new FR product to someone who just wants to play the game. I mean, as you said, they already have everything they need. Over ten times everything they need, more likely*. The ones who will still buy FR products (myself probably included) are the ones who want to really flesh out the setting in their heads, who yearn for ideas they can add to the tapestry and complex interrelations between everything.
*I guess reprints of the core setting books with barebones information would be warranted every five years/a decade or whatever, for the benefit of the new generation who never really got into the setting. Basically what they did in 4e. Only they also decided to scrap the lore-heavy products at the same time. I don't see why they can't do both, in principle.
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Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
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PaulBestwick
Seeker
United Kingdom
83 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2012 : 12:00:22
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| Markus, I have to disagree with you on Ed running with the Old Empires and even Ancient Empires Lore, I think he would love to get involved in that side of things and put his insight on them, just as I suspect that George K woudl love to help Ed along . |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2012 : 18:37:28
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Well, I'm not saying it can't be done, but he has to get everything approved by WotC, and I feel they will make changes when they think certain things run contrary to their goals (which is the right of any company to do with a product line they own).
I'd love to see the Old Empires get a facelift, but we've also heard numerous times that "all past lore will be respected", which to me is like shooting yourself in the foot. If you are not willing to change things fans didn't like, then it becomes a delicate juggling act - one that is self-imposed, and in the long-run, self-defeating.
At the same time, you have two major groups of fans (with dozens of sub-groups with diverse opinions) who wildly disagree on what should be supported. That means NEW material needs to be presented that will please both groups. Everything has to be AMAZING from this point on - the bar they have set for themselves is so damn high that they may want to rethink things. I think one of the major turn-offs for the setting is all the interloping, which most of the Old Empires stuff is based around. I understand it is THE most basic premise of the setting, but I feel it was taken way too far. I think Ed could fix that, but only if they let him.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Nov 2012 18:38:31 |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2012 : 00:58:36
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| Which is why they need to stop dilly-dallying and just start covering areas never covered before. Or covered very little. Since they have a ton of the other stuff already (I want to puke everytime I see more rehashes like that Mezoberranzan book or another Waterdeep book or, jeez, more Heartlands material! I know more than I need to know on The Dales) |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2012 : 01:03:22
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I can see the point on the "spaceship" feel of Spelljammer being in the Realms but there's still places like Lantan that exist. And Mechanus. Also, if anyone has played Final Fantasy IV and completed it, they tied in a magical skyship that had the power to travel to the moon and back towards the end of the game and the way they melded it in felt natural. I had no strange feeling of it being too "Star Trek" like or "too sciency" (bad enough people argue this with Psionics!)
I always thought Spelljammer melded it to feel fantasy enough, especially with stuff like Crystal Spheres and Phlogistons, etc. Otherwise, what is it that people see if they gaze up at night anyway? A global, animated painting? |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2012 : 05:34:10
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I think Spelljammer was mishandled... I dunno if it was the marketing, or a shortage of input, or too much breathing-down-necks by the hyper bean-counters, or what. It was a great idea, and they nixed it. At this point it probably can't make a comeback, in the same way that a large percentage of people will always hate Barry Manilow.
People who've never even heard Barry Manilow hate Barry Manilow. Likewise, people who've never played in a Spelljammer game will say "Space, spheres, flog-a-what? That's stupid."
This veers toward Dragon rather than Ed Presents, but I think it would be great to have an annual sort of "meanwhile, in XYZ" collection, where each of the old settings gets an article or three with a combination of new locations/npcs/magic/feats/classes/whatever and Q&A or panel sorts of interviews/discussions between designers and authors who are fans of that particular setting. Not necessarily the designers who put the setting together (obviously they're biased right) but favoring others who still run that setting in their home campaigns... the key is that they love it enough to really wish it could make a comeback.
That way, if you (as one of us customers, whether you DM or not) decided you hated Spelljammer without ever trying it, your eye *might* get caught by the interesting artwork and you decide to read someone's ideas since it's not costing you $40 to buy a setting or anything. And if you legitimately hate it, you can flip past it and read about Mystara or Ravenloft or who knows, maybe even the old Conan setting. Putting it online as opposed to in a book format not only saves money (and reintroduces players to old settings they might not otherwise have considered) but it also theoretically allows for videos and cgi script pages, spreadsheets and generators, and so forth.
Back on the topic of Ed Presents... I'd love to see things like "A night in Hillsfar" and "Expedition to Vaasa: Traversing the Western Galenas" and more of Ed's famous recipes. How about the life and times of Palus Frohm, the explorer and biographer of the Great Glacier? Or Larloch as a young arcanist? Or for that matter... dare we imagine Szass as a teenager, with a girlfriend, looking for his parents' approval... they'd make the Addams family look like Mr Rogers.
And seriously, people... start showing us the other continents! |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2012 : 19:17:07
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| I'd love to see more on constellations and Realmspace as such. Ancient Empires would also be nice. Non-RL animals is something I miss in published Realms... |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2012 : 19:32:17
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Like I have said elsewhere, I don't mind the basic concept of sailing between wolds, I just think once you put 'Outer space' into the equation you start crossing a line into Scify. Its just a personal preference thing - I am certainly not trying to convince anyone else. just stating how I feel about it, is all.
What Zireal said - handling Realmspace as part of the FR setting, rather then as part of the Spelljammer setting would probably be a lot less jarring, IMO. I like the idea of getting in-setting descriptions of the other worlds, moon(s), constellations, etc. Realmspace is VERY important to the some of the building blocks of the setting itself, and thats why I think it needed to be handled with kid gloves (in other words, Ed needs to write the whole damn thing).
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
Which is why they need to stop dilly-dallying and just start covering areas never covered before. Or covered very little. Since they have a ton of the other stuff already (I want to puke everytime I see more rehashes like that Mezoberranzan book or another Waterdeep book or, jeez, more Heartlands material! I know more than I need to know on The Dales)
Couldn't agree more.
I never bothered to read my original Waterdeep and Menzo boxes. I certainly never needed more. Cormyr is always interesting, but its been done to death. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Nov 2012 19:33:24 |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2012 : 18:47:58
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I have another thing to add on the wishlist:
Oceanography and Undersea Lore
We have little of that, almost all of it concentrated on just the Sea of Fallen Stars. I would like to know more about what's in the Trackless Sea, Celestial Sea, Southern Sea, Great Ice Sea, etc. And also about those underwater regions, too. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2012 : 00:37:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Razz
I have another thing to add on the wishlist:
Oceanography and Undersea Lore
We have little of that, almost all of it concentrated on just the Sea of Fallen Stars. I would like to know more about what's in the Trackless Sea, Celestial Sea, Southern Sea, Great Ice Sea, etc. And also about those underwater regions, too.
Steven Schend did cover some of the underwater communities for the Trackless Sea in Empires of the Shining Sea. So there's a great starting base for Wizards to build upon... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1266 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2012 : 02:55:17
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| It would be neat to read more about Slarkrethel and the Kraken Society if Ed did provide more undersea lore! I always thought it was a very cool concept, the stuff in Cloak and Dagger was great. |
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Elminster's Forgotten Realms Wishlist
