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sleyvas
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USA
8139 Posts

Posted - 08 Nov 2012 :  06:22:03  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I'm going to note something of an idea. I'd like to see it grow from multiple sages of lore finding the disparate pieces that I'm maybe not seeing.


Mellifleur was/is a multi-spheric deity because he definitely drew from deities of multiple worlds. In Monster Mythology, it also states "illithid sages have an extraordinary variant of this tale, claiming that the event involved a collective impulse among the gods themselves, so that several evil gods in different worlds were all carrying out the same operation at the same time, and their combined magical effects, summed and transformed, raised Mellifleur not just to deity status but to the status of a lesser god. This would explain why in Greyhawk, Nerull is said to be the deity who created Mellifleur; in Toril, they say Bane, and in other worlds, other dark names are invoked". Its also noted that he has multiple magical phylacteries hidden in his home.

My take is that Mellifleur is actually somewhat of a psychotic force. I think that the illithid sages "almost" had the right of it when they made their notes. The part where I think they messed up was where they said "at the same time". I believe that multiple different individuals in different crystal spheres have enacted the ritual that stole the power from EITHER another deity's ascension themselves OR another deity trying to raise a follower to demi-god status. Thus, "Mellifleur" is actually a collective mind (much like the illithids, which may be why they were interested). Each phylactery is tied to an aspect of Mellifleur (i.e. each mortal that "ascended" to join the Mellifleur godhead via ritual provided their own phylactery). Within a given crystal sphere, each "aspect" of Mellifleur acts in accordance to its own needs but has knowledge of the larger force whenever they focus upon it.

So far, I'm betting I have noone having a problem with the idea. Now is where I'm betting we'll see splits. So, Mellifleur existed prior to the Time of Troubles as Mellifleur and stole his power from Bane. I state this because Bane didn't exist "after" the time of troubles (well, didn't for a little while). So, what happened with Mellifleur following the time of troubles? My belief is that he was trapped in his phylactery by Ao and his phylactery hidden in the mortal realm. Possibly this was due to his having taken control of one of Larloch's liches during the ToT when he was forced to assume avatar form (and possibly Larloch and Mellifleur went at one another and Larloch won.... but maybe Larloch never knew the truth of what exactly he had been fighting).

So, the end result, Mellifleur is defeated during the ToT, gets "stuck" in his phylactery (similar somewhat to how Myrkul is stuck in the crown of horns). Along comes Talos. Talos knows of a human wizard who studies powerful necromancy (and in my version, also basic "binding" as an anima mage) by the name of Velsharoon who is seeking immortality. Through divine guidance, Talos leads Velsharoon to the Phylactery of Mellifleur. Velsharoon (with Talos' aid) uses the artifact known as the Skull Staff of the Necromancer along with a special ritual to actually draw out the "spirit" of Mellifleur and entrap it within the Skull Staff (which also functions as a vestige phylactery... see history of the Skull Staff at the end). He then uses a ritual to siphon the divine power from the Phylactery of Mellifleur to power his own ascension (again, with Talos' guidance). However, unlike the previous beings that ascended, Velsharoon is NOT tied to the "Mellifleur" collective, but he begins accepting what little worship comes from liches in the name of Mellifleur.

So, what happened to the "spirit" of the being that was sucked from the phylactery (i.e. the previous Mellifleur)? The being was sucked into the vestige phylactery and then was ejected 24 hours later... into the place where Vestiges go. This "being" then became the vestige which we've come to know as "Tenebrous".

Around this same time, Gareth Dragonsbane and company invaded Orcus' home plane of Thanatos and secured the Wand of Orcus which they then destroyed. This is where it gets a little muddy, but perhaps after Gareth and company's work, Kiaransalee actually takes advantage of the uproar, assaults Orcus, and uses the magic which removes him from existence. When he's "removed from existence" however, he's actually sent to the place where Vestiges go. This momentarily opens a hole to said place and allows "Tenebrous, the shadow that was" to escape. However, "Tenebrous" no longer has ties to the Mellifleur collective and the method of its escape has actually somehow "tied" it to Orcus (much as binding a vestige is done... however in this instance, it was two vestiges bound together). Orcus does not like sharing himself with this other being and seeks to regain the upper hand by recovering the Wand of Orcus (which had apparently reformed). However, it is Tenebrous that actually leads the way to killing the illithid deity Maanzecorian, because Tenebrous hopes to somehow use the illithid deity's essence to create a new "collective". Also, Camaxtli, the Maztican god of fate, is also killed. A lesser primordial known as Bwimb, baron of the paraelemental plane of ooze, and a Zakharan deity named Tomeri, goddess of wisdom and love, are also slain. It then moves on to Primus, head of the modrons.... another "collective". All are destroyed using the "last word", which seems to be actually a means to send divine beings to the place where vestiges go.

Eventually, this new form of Tenebrous is destroyed using the "Last Word" itself. This sends both Tenebrous and Orcus back to the place where vestiges go, but Orcus is eventually resurrected by a servant of his enacting a ritual upon his astral body.

Later, Kiaransalee is also destroyed using a high magic version of the same effect that sent Orcus to the place where Vestiges go. However, it is rumored that Kiaransalee has been able to make contact with a kindred spirit. Cegilune, the hag queen sister of Tiandra, has long been interested in souls... and the souls that are vestiges are powerful indeed. Its rumored that Cegilune offers to help to try and free Kiaransalee.... for a price... though whether Cegilune will turn on Kiaransalee is unknown.


Now, why did Talos help Velsharoon in the first place to spin all of this up? Did Talos guide the original realmsian Mellifleur? Did Mellifleur ascend around the time of the dawn crisis? Was there some need for a being like Velsharoon to come about in order to allow the spellplague or unsundering to happen? Was the "Velsharoon" that was slain by the Simbul actually Velsharoon, or did Tenebrous escape again and try to build up power only to run into the wrong person? What happened to the Phylactery of Mellifleur? What happened to the Crown of Horns as well? What happened to the artifact/godsweapon known as the Skull Staff of the Necromancer?

I posit this theory because I think it could be spun to some help in healing the realms a bit if taken in the right directions.






************history of the Skull Staff of the Necromancer before it became a divine tool below (totally homebrew)******

The Skull Staff of the Necromancer is a powerful Imaskari artifact wielded by several Lord Artificers before the fall of Imaskar. It was constructed by a powerful anima mage named Murghos who very commonly bound the vestige known as Balam to himself. As a result, Murghos was influenced over time by Balam to hate the servants of the gods (even moreso than the norm for an Imaskari). Murghos created the Staff of the Necromancer as a tool with which to strike at his hated enemies. Over time, Murghos transformed himself into a lich, using the staff as his phylactery. After a few centuries more, Murghos felt his hold on this plane loosening and Murghos began the ritual to invest himself with even greater power as a demi-lich. However, something went wrong with the ritual sacrifice (some believe that the vestige of Balam that was in the staff's phylactery at the time had something to do with this) and Murghos' soul was wrenched into the place where Vestiges reside and the demi-lich's skull became fused to the staff (thus its new name of "The Skull Staff of Necromancers") . However, a small portion of Murghos' own sentience remained trapped in the staff, endowing it with even greater magical power and turning it into an artifact.

Artifact: Skull Staff of the necromancer (Imaskari artifact) - Powers of Skull Staff:
Spells: command undead at will, gentle repose at will, animate dead 3/day, create undead 2/day, control undead 2/day, finger of death 2/day
+1 quarterstaff, unholy, vile, souldrinker, ghost touch, sure striking <note +5 with greater magic weapon)
increases the number of hit dice of undead controllable by caster to 10 HD per caster level
The Skull Staff of the necromancer also functions as a Vestige Phylactery (see Tome of Magic) and a Soul Lens (see Tome of Magic)
The Skull Staff of the necromancer provides a +4 bonus to binding checks to bind a vestige (this bonus becomes +6 if binding Balam)
(Int 19 Wis 10 Char 19 AL NE Ego 31 Communication: speech, telepathy Senses: 120 ft darkvision, blindsense, and hearing
Languages: Abyssal, Infernal, Celestial, Draconic, Aragrakh (Old High Wyrm), Imaskari, Roushoum, Mulhorandi, Untheric and reads magic
Lesser powers: detect magic (at will), Staff has 10 ranks in Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (history:Imaskar),and Knowledge (the planes)
Greater powers: magic circle against good at will, fear 3/day
Special Purpose: Defeat/slay divine spellcasters Special Purpose Power: wielder gets +2 profane bonus on saves

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8139 Posts

Posted - 08 Nov 2012 :  06:31:30  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, also, the "Visages" that Tenebrous created. They were supposedly recreated from slain demon servitors of Orcus resurrected in a new body. Might they have been forms created and inhabited by Vestiges of demons who were trapped in the place where Vestiges go (i.e. the Visages were acting as binders per se).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 08 Nov 2012 :  16:00:47  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I like most of it, but I'd actually keep Velsharoon as a Faerūnian aspect of Mellifleur. It ties into my own concept of Archtypes (which in 1e/2e multispheric deities were). Multispheric 'gods' are to Archtypes what Avatars are to deities (I once dubbed them 'Ubertars'). Most would not even know they were.

I really like the stuff about phylactories - I've been toying with the whole concept of them for awhile myself (for instance, a mortal body born on the Prime Material is actually a phylactory). However, I would make the FR Mellifleur phylactory some sort of gem (or other small ornamental item) and have Velsharoon add it to the skull staff, rather then 'downloading' Mellifleur into it (it just seems more fantasyish that way - I'm not big on the whole transference thing... at least not so easily). The Black Diamond wound up in the Crown of Horns (presumably), so its almost like a theme with 'ancient, deity-connected artifacts' to have some sort of gem as the focus (and prison?) of 'ultimate evil'. I'm sure some sort of story can be wound through all of that (the gems of discord?)

I figured out a long time ago that 'Sharoon' is Roushoum (Imaskari) for "of Darkness", as part of my Hordelands research (the realm of Tsharoon fell to madness). Perhaps Velsharoon could have come from there (I vaguely recall I had come up with a connection between the two, but I no longer have my notes). Seems the 'Dark Three' may have all originated in the Unapproachable East/Taan/Old Empires region, so Velsharoon may have been trying to follow in their footsteps. The Imaskari were masters of interdimensional translocation and binding magics.

Anyhow, the weakest part of the whole thing seems to be the connections to Orcus, but it works. There may be a way of simplifying some of that (I am thinking that the wand of Orcus actually acts as HIS phylactory, and somehow there is an ancient connection between that and the Skull Staff - they seem to have a similar look and feel. Also, have we ever seen ALL of the Imaskarcana in canon? The skull Staff may be one of the 'lost' ones, or even one of the false ones.

Good lore sleuthing.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 08 Nov 2012 16:03:17
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sleyvas
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USA
8139 Posts

Posted - 08 Nov 2012 :  22:39:50  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I like most of it, but I'd actually keep Velsharoon as a Faerūnian aspect of Mellifleur. It ties into my own concept of Archtypes (which in 1e/2e multispheric deities were). Multispheric 'gods' are to Archtypes what Avatars are to deities (I once dubbed them 'Ubertars'). Most would not even know they were.

I really like the stuff about phylactories - I've been toying with the whole concept of them for awhile myself (for instance, a mortal body born on the Prime Material is actually a phylactory). However, I would make the FR Mellifleur phylactory some sort of gem (or other small ornamental item) and have Velsharoon add it to the skull staff, rather then 'downloading' Mellifleur into it (it just seems more fantasyish that way - I'm not big on the whole transference thing... at least not so easily). The Black Diamond wound up in the Crown of Horns (presumably), so its almost like a theme with 'ancient, deity-connected artifacts' to have some sort of gem as the focus (and prison?) of 'ultimate evil'. I'm sure some sort of story can be wound through all of that (the gems of discord?)

I figured out a long time ago that 'Sharoon' is Roushoum (Imaskari) for "of Darkness", as part of my Hordelands research (the realm of Tsharoon fell to madness). Perhaps Velsharoon could have come from there (I vaguely recall I had come up with a connection between the two, but I no longer have my notes). Seems the 'Dark Three' may have all originated in the Unapproachable East/Taan/Old Empires region, so Velsharoon may have been trying to follow in their footsteps. The Imaskari were masters of interdimensional translocation and binding magics.

Anyhow, the weakest part of the whole thing seems to be the connections to Orcus, but it works. There may be a way of simplifying some of that (I am thinking that the wand of Orcus actually acts as HIS phylactory, and somehow there is an ancient connection between that and the Skull Staff - they seem to have a similar look and feel. Also, have we ever seen ALL of the Imaskarcana in canon? The skull Staff may be one of the 'lost' ones, or even one of the false ones.

Good lore sleuthing.




I like the idea of him having bonded the phylactery of Mellifleur with the Skull Staff of the Necromancer. I'm not big on it being just a gem.... but perhaps a circlet with a large obsidian stone that is placed on the skull of the Imaskari demi-lich Murghos. Velsharoon would still have to transfer Mellifleur from the "lich" phylactery to the "vestige phylactery" of the staff, but that might be done as part of this merging. Thanks.

Yeah, I'm torn on the part of him joining the "Mellifleur collective". My initial thoughts were that he would, but his scope of power surpasses that which Mellifleur himself controls (i.e. Mellifleur is strictly the god of liches). He also keeps his own name and simply accepts the alias of Mellifleur. One idea I was kind of playing with was that he would actually use the vestige phylactery of the Skull Staff of the Necromancer (because my version of Velsharoon is a generalist mage/dread necromancer/binder) and "bind" Mellifleur (or as his vestige became known... Tenebrous) to himself. Thus, he becomes "linked" to the collective via the vestige (and possibly shares thoughts with him), but if need be he can break the link. He'd be one of the few gods who actively links himself to beings in the Far Realm (and whereas they enjoy "sharing" the senses of a mortal and thereby rewarding mortals..... what would vestiges give to share the senses of a god?). To my mind, this really gives a sick twist on Velsharoon.

I agree that the part with Orcus and Tenebrous "escaping" from the "place where vestiges go" together is a little sketchy. I'm not really sure how to link the two. Maybe Orcus and Mellifleur had some kind of agreement prior to Mellifleur's destruction? Maybe Mellifleur had helped Orcus modify the wand of Orcus to work as something akin to a phylactery, but in so doing Mellifleur had also instilled a bit of himself unknown to Orcus? I do like though that what Kiaransalee did to him sent him to the place where Vestiges go. I also like that the Last Word that he discovers how to use doesn't really destroy beings, but rather sends them to "the place where Vestiges go". Maybe he then "binds" those newly created Vestiges to his "physical" form in order to gain their knowledge, etc.... There's got to be a better way to write it up, but I feel like its got a really good basis that didn't exist in 2E.

Or I could just say Mellifleur and Tenebrous are two different vestiges and there's no link to Orcus. How exactly Orcus/Tenebrous formed as an "undead" god just becomes another story (but I would recommend the stuff about the last word not actually slaying gods but entrapping them).

I don't want to give Velsharoon any links to Imaskar for his early history. He was Halruaan and he was one of the founders of the red wizards. He became a renegade red wizard though. There's nothing that states he ever was around once the rule by Zulkirs was established (which took decades). At some point he setup his new home in Chessenta (the Tower Terrible in Soorenar). That much is documented lore, so I want to keep it.

this next is all homebrew
I prefer though that once he turned renegade he started breaking into tombs and such in Raurin. I also like the idea that he was allied somewhat with another renegade red wizard (Zhengyi the Witch King of Vaasa) prior to his ascension. I also like the idea that he learned the art of the dread necromancer while on the Isle of Sahu in Zakhara (also known as the Isle of the Necromancer Kings) after being shipwrecked as a young man centuries ago. While his learning of "dread necromancy" arts didn't really tick off his fellow Halruaans, it was when he began to study binding that they rose up to kick him and his fellow red wizards out of Halruaa.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 09 Nov 2012 :  01:18:13  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmmm, I had forgotten Vel was Halruaan. Still, an easy jump to make: If he helped found the Red Wizards, he must have been spending time in the Old empires, and all three of the Old Empires are Imaskari survivor-states.

Are there any pictures of Velsharoon? I was just thinking... some of my homebrew musings have it where there was a last (northern) bastion of Turami culture - Thalhazar (which the Hordelands material lists as a nation at one point). I was thinking Vel could have been black (not that we'd be able to tell now - he ain't got no skin! LOL)

Then again, even if he was knocking around old Thalhazar, he wouldn't have been a native. Ahhh, well... I was shooting for a little ethnicity in the FR pantheon. On the other hand, being Halruaan doesn't necessarily make one a native (there were several Netherese archwizards who were born outside of Nethril, for instance).

I've already turned Savras into a Mar; I can't keep stealing all the Halruaan gods.

Yeah, a circlet of some kind on the skull works nicely. Vecna would also be a good candidate for the Mellifleur Collective. It could very well be all of this Ubertars have no idea about their connection (which means the Tenebrous may be working toward using all of them to eventually make a run for Overgodhood).


*Gramatical correction

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 09 Nov 2012 15:29:13
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Quale
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 09 Nov 2012 :  10:28:13  Show Profile Send Quale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think Talos helped Velsharoon cause like Shar and Cyric he wanted Mystra's power. Velsharoon's domain was in Dweomerheart, there was the best chance to discover about the Weave.
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Markustay
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Posted - 09 Nov 2012 :  15:34:18  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thats an interesting thought. It could be instead of a spellplague, we could have gotten a Spell Storm.

He might feel the natural order of the universe - the magical maelstrom - should fall under his sway, and any sort of 'Weave' is artificial and interferes with what he believes to be his domain.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Shemmy
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USA
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Posted - 10 Nov 2012 :  05:39:42  Show Profile  Visit Shemmy's Homepage  Send Shemmy an AOL message  Send Shemmy an ICQ Message Send Shemmy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Melif / Mellifleur has been kicking around in Gehenna's fourth furnace without any changes really.

That said, I'm not at all against the notion that Velsharoon was a Torillian aspect of his.

However I'd dispute that Orcus's wand was ever destroyed by Gareth and company (an aspect or avatar of his being destroyed yes), since it runs into canon issues with the later 'Dead Gods' material.

Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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MrHedgehog
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Posted - 10 Nov 2012 :  06:32:41  Show Profile  Visit MrHedgehog's Homepage Send MrHedgehog a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There is a picture of Velsharoon in Powers and Pantheons:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v88/MrHedgehog/godsofmagic.png
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Markustay
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USA
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Posted - 11 Nov 2012 :  15:56:41  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, but we still don't know what he looked like when he was alive. As for the rest of that pic, why is Savras an 'airhead'?

As for Orcus' Wand, I think each Avatar has its own version of it, but the real one would stay in his domain with his primary avatar/center of consciousness.

Another Idea: Contemplating multishperic/archtype deities more (along with phylactories), I am thinking that a god needs some sort of 'anchor' in each sphere it is active in - an actual artifact/relic to maintain its presence there. This would mean there needs to be a 'Wand of Orcus' for each sphere he is active in. It would also mean there would have to be at least one such device for every single god.

So you could destroy the FR avatar of Orcus, but you'd have to destroy his FR version of his wand to be rid of him for good (and the Wand would teleport someplace else as a contingency, upon the avatar's death). If you combine this with Sleyvas' idea about the tenebrous and a 'god collective' (the archtypes), it would mean the 'holy relics' of a deity are like conduits - thats what actually connects the deity to its archtype/collective. What I am getting at is what if some Demon Lord became extremely powerful on a world, and made a bid for godhood? Then Orcus comes along - perhaps incognoto - and provides the extra 'juice' to get that ball rolling. So sponsorship comes with a price - if you are an exarch underneath a multispheric power, you could slowly start turning into a world-specific version of that power. Once your sponsor hands you some sort of 'kewl weapon', your hooked - the real Orcus hands the local fiend a copy of his wand and WALLAH! Instant local Orcus.

Thus, our Bane may just be some 'local boy' who got power and was sponsored by some hitherto unknown core (archtype) Bane. He could have just been 'Billy the Bad', and when he ascended he took the name Bane - a name already in-use elsewhere in the planes. He wouldn't have even know he just got drafted into core Bane's 'army of Bane-clones'. So anyone finding a copy of a relic of a 'dead god' could be turned into that being again, and they wouldn't even realize they were actually just a copy (they'd think they were the original reborn). This could be how the Crown of Horns works - the thing inside it is actually the basic version of the Mellifleur program, just waiting for the right person to use.

Archtypes are probably that level of godhood beyond deities - the one talked about in the Basic D&D Immortals Rules. That means that Ao may be an archtype for magic as well.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 11 Nov 2012 16:02:15
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sleyvas
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USA
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Posted - 12 Nov 2012 :  00:53:29  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Yeah, but we still don't know what he looked like when he was alive. As for the rest of that pic, why is Savras an 'airhead'?

As for Orcus' Wand, I think each Avatar has its own version of it, but the real one would stay in his domain with his primary avatar/center of consciousness.

Another Idea: Contemplating multishperic/archtype deities more (along with phylactories), I am thinking that a god needs some sort of 'anchor' in each sphere it is active in - an actual artifact/relic to maintain its presence there. This would mean there needs to be a 'Wand of Orcus' for each sphere he is active in. It would also mean there would have to be at least one such device for every single god.

So you could destroy the FR avatar of Orcus, but you'd have to destroy his FR version of his wand to be rid of him for good (and the Wand would teleport someplace else as a contingency, upon the avatar's death). If you combine this with Sleyvas' idea about the tenebrous and a 'god collective' (the archtypes), it would mean the 'holy relics' of a deity are like conduits - thats what actually connects the deity to its archtype/collective. What I am getting at is what if some Demon Lord became extremely powerful on a world, and made a bid for godhood? Then Orcus comes along - perhaps incognoto - and provides the extra 'juice' to get that ball rolling. So sponsorship comes with a price - if you are an exarch underneath a multispheric power, you could slowly start turning into a world-specific version of that power. Once your sponsor hands you some sort of 'kewl weapon', your hooked - the real Orcus hands the local fiend a copy of his wand and WALLAH! Instant local Orcus.

Thus, our Bane may just be some 'local boy' who got power and was sponsored by some hitherto unknown core (archtype) Bane. He could have just been 'Billy the Bad', and when he ascended he took the name Bane - a name already in-use elsewhere in the planes. He wouldn't have even know he just got drafted into core Bane's 'army of Bane-clones'. So anyone finding a copy of a relic of a 'dead god' could be turned into that being again, and they wouldn't even realize they were actually just a copy (they'd think they were the original reborn). This could be how the Crown of Horns works - the thing inside it is actually the basic version of the Mellifleur program, just waiting for the right person to use.

Archtypes are probably that level of godhood beyond deities - the one talked about in the Basic D&D Immortals Rules. That means that Ao may be an archtype for magic as well.





Hmmm, I do like the idea that there's multiple "Orcus Wands" because if you look at the descriptions in diferrent versions of the game over the years, its described different slightly.

As to what you're describing with "offering to raise people up" and mentioning Bane.... that brings back that whole Xvim argument (which I'm not taking sides on.... I like both ideas... either that this is still Xvim or that Bane took over Xvim).

Oh, and the Crown of Horns would be Myrkul not Mellifleur.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8139 Posts

Posted - 12 Nov 2012 :  01:21:06  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Hmmmm, I had forgotten Vel was Halruaan. Still, an easy jump to make: If he helped found the Red Wizards, he must have been spending time in the Old empires, and all three of the Old Empires are Imaskari survivor-states.

Are there any pictures of Velsharoon? I was just thinking... some of my homebrew musings have it where there was a last (northern) bastion of Turami culture - Thalhazar (which the Hordelands material lists as a nation at one point). I was thinking Vel could have been black (not that we'd be able to tell now - he ain't got no skin! LOL)

Then again, even if he was knocking around old Thalhazar, he wouldn't have been a native. Ahhh, well... I was shooting for a little ethnicity in the FR pantheon. On the other hand, being Halruaan doesn't necessarily make one a native (there were several Netherese archwizards who were born outside of Nethril, for instance).

I've already turned Savras into a Mar; I can't keep stealing all the Halruaan gods.

Yeah, a circlet of some kind on the skull works nicely. Vecna would also be a good candidate for the Mellifleur Collective. It could very well be all of this Ubertars have no idea about their connection (which means the Tenebrous may be working toward using all of them to eventually make a run for Overgodhood).


*Gramatical correction



No pictures of Velsharoon while alive. In fact, there's suprisingly little history on his pre-god status, which is why I've tried to fill it in a little bit here and there. We know some of his enemies too, one of which is "Halder of Delzimmer". Researching Delzimmer, I came across the Jathlet family in this "Elminster Speaks" article.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=fr/fx20020320es

So, the Jathlets family section notes "there are persistent rumors that the family ranks include at least one necromancer skilled in magic that can knit body parts together and alter human physiques and faces enough to hide someone permanently. Enemies of the Jathlets claim these abilities are used to forever trap important persons (kidnapped by the Jathlets) into slavery." It then mentions a Malthorn who is a necromancer, but I wonder if Velsharoon isn't actually the behind the scenes family patriarch (who lets his family do what they want until he needs them). It might fit that before allying with the Thayans he fled Halruaa and setup a family in Delzimmer. Then when he turned renegade he setup a "home away from home" in Soorenar. Thus, his family may have caused some beef with Halder of Delzimmer (after all the Jathlets apparently have a very bad reputation in Delzimmer).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 12 Nov 2012 :  06:43:00  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Oh, and the Crown of Horns would be Myrkul not Mellifleur.
That wasn't an error - what I meant was that Myrkul may have been working toward godhood (as Bane and Bhaal also were), and some strange old man said, "here... try this on...", which would have been Mellifleur in disguise. The idea is that the 'Dark Crown' is the relic that turns gods-in-waiting into part of the Mellifleur collective.

The crown would be a little different from world to world, but it would be the connecting factor. Bane could possibly have an artifact-level rod of lordly might, which would also be different from world to world. Bhaal could have 'the Assassin's Dagger', which would also have various forms. The gods would all have their own, but they would all just be shadows of the original relics - pale reflections of that first power that arose to become an archtype.

If you say the diamond in the Crown of Horns is THE Black Diamond, that would mean that its mysterious appearance (and corruption of the Fey) could have been engineered by the Dark God (or Tenebrous/whatever), which could be the archtype for all the death gods. The idea is that each of these beings extend their control to new spheres through 'unwitting dupes'. Once you touch the trigger item, the transformation begins (which could take many centuries to complete, based on the power of the deity being subsumed).

Thus, it doesn't really matter weather Bane is Xvim, or vice-versa, because both may have come into contact with the core Bane's relic and transformed (thus, neither is the true Bane).

This is just idle musings, not what I go with. I'm am just toying with the possibility that mortals don't really ascend and become their own gods, but rather, that they fulfill some universal need for that type of deity on each world. Thus, becoming a deity would almost be like getting virus - you touch the item and the deity grows within you (if you fit the template). Xvim transformed simply because he "caught the Bane". Its just another way to explain how dead gods keep coming back.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 12 Nov 2012 06:53:39
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