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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Nov 2012 : 08:39:52
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In Dragons of Faerun and Cult of the Dragon it seems like these two deities are trying to take over this cult. Do you perceive either of them ever succeeding or should it be a perpetual struggle, or something to be put down?
I prefer the idea of the Cult of the Dragon having cleric members...but no specific divine patron. I don't even like the idea of their being cells dominated by worshipers of Tiamat or Bane. I would prefer to think the competing interests of the clerics and the fact that the cult's nature should preclude a specific God dominating them would balance it out...perhaps into perpetual strife. Alaghshon being such an incredibly powerful Cleric "hearing the whispers of Gargauth" seems like he should be able to push out the dominance of Tiamat AND Bane (if that is what Gargauth desires) in my opinion.
What are your collective thoughts? (If 4e talks about the Cult of the Dragon I missed it)
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2012 : 10:21:45
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Since 4e Tiamat serves Bane, so internal strife would not be that dominant in my opinion because the followers of Tiamat would know they would anger the "Boss" of their goddess, Gargauth too has yet to make a return since he is not listed as deities in 4e and if he isnīt sending whipsers i would see those following him switching allegiances for convenience.
Gargauth was not a strong faith in the realms, the most dominant power were the Knights of the Shield that venerated him but the Cult of the Dragon was never a tool to further his schemes.
Seeing that Tiamat bowed to Bane that would make both groups united against Alaghshon if any move would be made to push them out and given the fact that Gargauth is not around for now i do not see the clerics power that great anymore and he would be in no position to oppose the other groups and hope to succeed. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2012 : 10:27:39
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Tiamat serving under Bane does not mean her followers accept that Bane's clergy rule over them. Kiaransalee served Lolth...did that stop Kiaransalee's priestesses from killing spider kissers at every opportunity? I also don't accept 4e realms and was thinking in terms of a more natural and logical progression of events. Tiamat "bowing" to Bane makes no sense since she is fiercely independent. She seems more of a rival to Bane rather than truly subservient. Like Umberlee, Auril, and Malar with Talos. It just seemed a convenient way to simplify things by hasbro.
Gargauth not being mentioned does not mean he doesn't exist. It just means they didn't list every deity that exists.
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2012 : 10:36:04
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| The cult of the dragon is more interested in having priests allied with it for their spells and less for their faith. The cult has its own crazy creed and believes eventually dead dragons will rule all. Also, a lot of members of the cult are just greedy merchants using the dragons allied with the cult to harm their rivals' business ventures. I have always seen it as opportunistic and willing to accept whatever followers of dark gods are willing to join their cause. I think Tiamat and Velsharoon would have the most appeal to those that idolize undead dragons, however I don't see any particular deity gaining dominance over that organization. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
Edited by - Tarlyn on 01 Nov 2012 10:36:53 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11716 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2012 : 13:50:42
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| In the 3E realms, I'd prefer the Cult of the dragon be split amongst many different factions, not even just two. I'd prefer priests of Tiamat, Velsharoon, Bane, and Talos as the primary movers and shakers within the cult. Then secondarily, some clerics of "energy" type gods as well that might work with certain types of dragons (Auril for white, Kossuth for red, Talos having more play with blues, etc...). In most power bases, these priesthoods should be mixed, but there could be some where there is a predominant clerical faction. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2012 : 13:51:00
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
Tiamat serving under Bane does not mean her followers accept that Bane's clergy rule over them. Kiaransalee served Lolth...did that stop Kiaransalee's priestesses from killing spider kissers at every opportunity? I also don't accept 4e realms and was thinking in terms of a more natural and logical progression of events. Tiamat "bowing" to Bane makes no sense since she is fiercely independent. She seems more of a rival to Bane rather than truly subservient. Like Umberlee, Auril, and Malar with Talos. It just seemed a convenient way to simplify things by hasbro.
Gargauth not being mentioned does not mean he doesn't exist. It just means they didn't list every deity that exists.
Tiamat serving Bane would make sense if he forced her to bend a knee, she may not like it of course but when it comes down to "divine power" Bane would have the upper hand in such a struggle. Of course we do not have any information how he did it and since you donīt accept 4e, which is understandable, i do not accept certain parts of it aswell, this discussion is not necessary then.
If you mean the "natrual" and logical progression i would see a clash of the faiths concerning the direction the cult will take, internal strife and backstabbings like the Arcane Brotherhood in Luskan for example.
The Church of Bane having more power than that of Tiamat in general means that "natural" progression would be them winning in the end due to greater resources unless something out of the picture has an effect on the ongoings.
We do not know how strong the influence of Gargauth is within the cult and if it is limited to Alaghshon then i do not see him having the means to push out the dominance of the other faiths for the fact that they are greater in number. Also we have to take into account the undead dragons who may have their own agenda and who knows who they might side with.
I would approach it like sleyvas and have the cult be split in several factions with their own agendas and where the clerical component is overdominant they might work towards the faiths goals rather than spreading the rule of undead dragons.
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The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
Edited by - Lord Bane on 01 Nov 2012 13:53:14 |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2012 : 14:13:22
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| The Cult of the Dragon is just not the same without Sammaster running around babbling on about how Mystra betrayed and dragons will rule everyone. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2012 : 15:22:46
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As I see it, Tiamat is a better fit for the Cult of the Dragon, as opposed to Bane. Since a lot of Cultists are into dragons, and since Tiamat is about dragons, I think that she would have more influence in the Cult than Bane would. Sure, there's a lot of priests of different deities in the Cult, but I think Tiamat would be more prominent among the true believers of the Cult, as opposed to those who join the Cult simply for personal gain.
So I think, in a conflict between the two deities, over the fate of the Cult, that it would come down to how many true believers there are and how many opportunists there are. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2012 : 20:07:33
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An idea I have had is that sects of Tiamat's faithful could see dracoliches as aspects of Tiamat. Those who see the dracoliches as deities in and of themselves might resent praising a distant somewhere off in the cosmos deity. If Tiamat grants spells to people who worship an Orb of Annihilation (Entropy was Tiamat, wasn't it? Or was that ambiguous?) then I don't see why she wouldn't grant spells and absorb the worship of those who worship dragons. Since she governs evil dragons I think venerating them, of fearing them, should empower her through indirect worship. Just as it has been stated that by using magic you indirectly worshiped Mystra, or by farming you empower Chauntea, etc.
Thauranul - I see a wish, miracle, and True resurrection in Sammaster's future. He's just too good to STAY dead. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2012 : 21:04:04
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
An idea I have had is that sects of Tiamat's faithful could see dracoliches as aspects of Tiamat. Those who see the dracoliches as deities in and of themselves might resent praising a distant somewhere off in the cosmos deity. If Tiamat grants spells to people who worship an Orb of Annihilation (Entropy was Tiamat, wasn't it? Or was that ambiguous?) then I don't see why she wouldn't grant spells and absorb the worship of those who worship dragons. Since she governs evil dragons I think venerating them, of fearing them, should empower her through indirect worship. Just as it has been stated that by using magic you indirectly worshiped Mystra, or by farming you empower Chauntea, etc.
Why not spin it just a bit further? Have a dracolich claim to be an aspect of the Undying Queen.
Or even better, have Tiamat pick a dracolich as her Seraph/Chosen. Having a dracolich claim Tiamat as its Queen, and showing her obvious favor, would go a long way, I think, to swaying Cultists in her direction. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2012 : 21:24:20
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Agreed, Wooly. The bloated winged lizards think of their race superior to everyone else. Bane was an ascended human. And Tiamat is of their kind, so... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2012 : 08:21:07
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Tiamat is aesthetically a more appealing villain to me, too.
Dudes in black armor are played out. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2012 : 09:53:40
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
Tiamat is aesthetically a more appealing villain to me, too.
Dudes in black armor are played out.
I myself am not a fan of Bane... But he's a lot more interesting if you buy into my theory that Bane 2.0 is really Iyachtu Xvim pretending to be his own daddy.  |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2012 : 13:02:04
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Banites do not necessarily wear black armour, they may wear what ever they deem necessary to further their lords domain.
Bad Wooly for spreading false information, Iyachtu Xvim is dead *finger wag*
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The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11716 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2012 : 17:32:16
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
An idea I have had is that sects of Tiamat's faithful could see dracoliches as aspects of Tiamat. Those who see the dracoliches as deities in and of themselves might resent praising a distant somewhere off in the cosmos deity. If Tiamat grants spells to people who worship an Orb of Annihilation (Entropy was Tiamat, wasn't it? Or was that ambiguous?) then I don't see why she wouldn't grant spells and absorb the worship of those who worship dragons. Since she governs evil dragons I think venerating them, of fearing them, should empower her through indirect worship. Just as it has been stated that by using magic you indirectly worshiped Mystra, or by farming you empower Chauntea, etc.
Thauranul - I see a wish, miracle, and True resurrection in Sammaster's future. He's just too good to STAY dead.
Just wondering, Faluzure from Monster Mythology was a shadow dragon lesser god of undeath, decay, energy draining and exhaustion. Do we have any indications that he's NOT in the realms? Any indications that he IS in the realms? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11716 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2012 : 17:40:02
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
An idea I have had is that sects of Tiamat's faithful could see dracoliches as aspects of Tiamat. Those who see the dracoliches as deities in and of themselves might resent praising a distant somewhere off in the cosmos deity. If Tiamat grants spells to people who worship an Orb of Annihilation (Entropy was Tiamat, wasn't it? Or was that ambiguous?) then I don't see why she wouldn't grant spells and absorb the worship of those who worship dragons. Since she governs evil dragons I think venerating them, of fearing them, should empower her through indirect worship. Just as it has been stated that by using magic you indirectly worshiped Mystra, or by farming you empower Chauntea, etc.
Thauranul - I see a wish, miracle, and True resurrection in Sammaster's future. He's just too good to STAY dead.
Just wondering, Faluzure from Monster Mythology was a shadow dragon lesser god of undeath, decay, energy draining and exhaustion. Do we have any indications that he's NOT in the realms? Any indications that he IS in the realms?
nm, found the answer in "cult of the dragon" Null is Faluzure and Chronespsis combined.
Also noted this (was written for second edition, so in late 1360's early 1370's):
While the Cult is formally allied with no organized religion,
worship of the following powers is most common
among those Cult members who profess such beliefs: Talos,
Talona, Xvim, Velsharoon, Shar, and Kelemvor. A smaller
number of Cult members revere Cyric, Malar, Gargauth,
and Tiamat, and a handful of Cult members also pay lip
service to the draconic pantheon of gods (including Null),
Garagos, or Siamorphe. Cyric#146;s worship was much more
prominent while he was also Lord of the Dead. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2012 : 18:23:55
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Having just finished Crown of fire (in which the CotD are referenced from the earlier novel but do not make any noteworthy appearances), it seems to me that that group is actually a front for MANY other groups which have infiltrated it, not the least of which are Zhents, Thayans, Banites, and Tiamet-worshipers.
I think this is what happened to them after Sammaster died - they became fragmented and easy prey fr other groups to operate within. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Nov 2012 18:24:27 |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2012 : 03:41:34
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Iyachtu Xvim + Tiamat > Bane.
Bane is booooooooooring. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2012 : 03:47:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Having just finished Crown of fire (in which the CotD are referenced from the earlier novel but do not make any noteworthy appearances), it seems to me that that group is actually a front for MANY other groups which have infiltrated it, not the least of which are Zhents, Thayans, Banites, and Tiamet-worshipers.
I think this is what happened to them after Sammaster died - they became fragmented and easy prey fr other groups to operate within.
Actually, even before Sammy bit it, it wasn't a unified group. They schemed against each other as oft as against outside groups, and many members didn't give an osquip's behind about dragons, dead or alive -- they joined the Cult for other benefits, like power and wealth. |
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2012 : 03:51:31
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The cult primarily operates in independent cells, I would think that certain cells might be controlled by religious factions, but the wider organization should be free of dedication to any particular deity.
It would be nice if there was a new mastermind or group of masterminds behind the cult. Although, I would choose to leave Sammaster dead(great character, but I think the cult of the dragon can produce new great characters). |
Tarlyn Embersun |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2012 : 15:45:30
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I disagree. Sammaster is one of the good things about the Cult. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2012 : 17:10:03
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I liked Sammaster as a villain, but now that he's gone, I'd prefer him to stay gone.
What I would do, if I wanted to keep the Cult active, is have someone new arise, claiming to be the Chosen of Sammaster and his hand-picked successor. And then this person would seize what control he could and continue working towards Sammy's goals. If he was smart, he would officially be working towards Sammaster's return, even if he had no intention of ever trying to bring back Sammy.
Of course, I'd suspect that the destruction of Sammy and his Dracorage Mythal would be quite discouraging for the devout Cultists, and that a fair number would drift away or form splinter groups. Even with someone there to grab the helm, I'd expect the Cult to be quite diminished -- only those groups that only paid lip service to the idea of being ruled by dead dragons would remain strong, because for them, Sammy and his mythal were immaterial. |
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2012 : 00:37:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I disagree. Sammaster is one of the good things about the Cult.
I completely agree that Sammaster was one of the good things about the cult. In fact, the AD&D Cult of the Dragon's open ended fate of Sammaster was a great plot hook(one of my favorites from that series of sourcebooks). However, the year of rogue dragons books closed that hook. I think that the Cult of the Dragon can continue without Sammaster and still be a great evil organization. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
Edited by - Tarlyn on 06 Nov 2012 02:46:27 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2012 : 05:00:47
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Unfortunately, his phylactery was utterly destroyed. Unless he somehow learned to replicate Aumvor's Fragmented Phylactery, then he's dead for good (or bad, whichever side you're on).
It is very unlikely that the Cult of the Dragon would perish. Sammaster was a key figure, but ultimately, 'tis a "dragons' show." It's considerably diminished upon his demise, but still it would persist to further its agenda. You may say that as long as there are ambitious dragons around, the Cult wouldn't end. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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coach
Senior Scribe
USA
479 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2012 : 00:12:28
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| Sammaster was Tiamat's puppet (unknown to him) for awhile (Dragons of Faerun p9-10), she seems to be the deity that is the most involved with the CotD and in many canon sources as taking an active role in subverting the whole organization |
Bloodstone Lands Sage |
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coach
Senior Scribe
USA
479 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2012 : 00:15:26
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| Powers and Pantheons p134-137 discusses one of Tiamat's aspects/avatars the "Undying Queen" which is an undead 5 headed dragon used in subverting the CotD |
Bloodstone Lands Sage |
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coach
Senior Scribe
USA
479 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2012 : 00:21:18
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((sorry for the multiple posts...posting from my phone so it loves to erase posts when i switch between apps where i'm looking up this info))
and in the Cult of the Dragon sourcebook on page 62 it discusses Tiamat and the CotD
in summation Tiamat is canonically linked in many sources and seems a better fit, whereas Bane just doesnt seem to fit with that crazy chaotic bunch |
Bloodstone Lands Sage |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2012 : 08:31:25
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| The priest setting Sammaster on his path away from "good" was a priest of Bane, so the ties are there. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2012 : 06:47:52
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| Tiamat is lawful, too. So the Bane being lawful argument doesn't seem to really fit |
Edited by - MrHedgehog on 14 Nov 2012 06:56:31 |
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coach
Senior Scribe
USA
479 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2012 : 01:46:21
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Not saying there are not banite ties and yes i know tiamat is lawful
Just giving an opinion
Tiamat is a dragon...the cult worshipa dragons
I guess it just makes more sense to me |
Bloodstone Lands Sage |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2012 : 01:57:28
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I think Tiamat is the better fit...in some areas.
In the Dales and surrounding that area...I think Bane is a better fit. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Cult of the Dragon. Tiamat vs. Bane
