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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2012 :  05:26:42  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic

We know it boosts strength and lends protection against mundane or magical attacks.

Does prolonged exposure to a substantial amount of shadowstuff make one an outsider? What other benefits does a human gain for possessing it? For one who's not strong of mind, will it make him mad? Do wizards have more chance of containing it in their bodies than ordinary people? Can a lich use it to strengthen his 'bones' indefinitely?

Every beginning has an end.

CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2052 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2012 :  05:35:55  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well Galaeron from RotAW used shadowstuff, and it had an effect on him, because it made him get in touch with his shadow self, and it made him go a little crazy, or at least "darker". He was able to combat it. I don't know if this is what you were thinking of, but I do think that if a person isn't strong enough to handle it, he (or she), will succumb to it and either become a darker version of their former selves, or go insane. Of course, if that person is already dark and evil...then maybe it has the opposite effect? It could probably come in handy for a lich.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2012 :  05:53:27  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Well Galaeron from RotAW used shadowstuff, and it had an effect on him, because it made him get in touch with his shadow self, and it made him go a little crazy, or at least "darker". He was able to combat it. I don't know if this is what you were thinking of, but I do think that if a person isn't strong enough to handle it, he (or she), will succumb to it and either become a darker version of their former selves, or go insane.
Galaeron was exposed to it just 'briefly.' I am more concerned on 'prolonged' exposure. Perhaps madness is just a temporary side-effect, part of an initial process to harden the mind?

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Of course, if that person is already dark and evil...then maybe it has the opposite effect?
I doubt it. Anyone who deals with shadow sees the darker side of things, and most often live/suffer with them.

Every beginning has an end.
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe

Canada
894 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2012 :  11:37:29  Show Profile Send Kilvan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
One of the many things that bugged me with this serie was how shadow/shadowstuff seemed to be linked to madness and evil. In my campaign, the shadow plane is more focused on chaos than anything else. Sure, most denizens are very aggresive, and it attracts the attention of many evil creatures, but I didn't like the whole evil-self stuff when he was exposed to it.

Shades are different IMO, because it is shadowstuff (or however you wanna call it) corrupted by Shar. I wish there was a deity of shadow of more chaotic neutral alignment. My take is that prolonged exposure to it would make any being mad in the end, as it is almost pure chaos.

Of course, this is all my own interpretation, and not based on any canon sources.

Oblivion loomed on every side, the offspring lived, basking in the realization that each moment could be the last moment.
--This was the beauty of chaos
--This was the beauty of Lolth
--This was the doom for all, but one

Quote from "Extinction"
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2012 :  11:52:50  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan

One of the many things that bugged me with this serie was how shadow/shadowstuff seemed to be linked to madness and evil. In my campaign, the shadow plane is more focused on chaos than anything else. Sure, most denizens are very aggresive, and it attracts the attention of many evil creatures, but I didn't like the whole evil-self stuff when he was exposed to it.
It's not just Galaeron that had to grapple with sanity and fight his tendency to do evil. Aeron Morrieth and Erevis Cale did the same.

Darkness is evil. Light leans towards good. Shadow is near darkness, and so it just makes sense that people who embrace it tend to be evil, too, or simply do the very opposite thing their former, untainted selves would do.

Every beginning has an end.
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe

Canada
894 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2012 :  12:29:07  Show Profile Send Kilvan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You are probably right, I just prefer my shadow plane/stuff to be more subtle than just being the evil side of the Force.

If the shadow plane is the opposite of anything, it's the Material plane. I think it is closer to a law-chaos relation than good-evil.

As for Cale, as I said in my previous post, maybe he's just tainted with Shar's corrupted shadows. After all, he IS an assassin, lost everyone around him, worshiper of an evil deity, and was revealed to be the champion of this god (whom he hates). I wouldn't blame only the shadows for his struggles toward madness.

Oblivion loomed on every side, the offspring lived, basking in the realization that each moment could be the last moment.
--This was the beauty of chaos
--This was the beauty of Lolth
--This was the doom for all, but one

Quote from "Extinction"
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe

Canada
801 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2012 :  12:53:59  Show Profile Send Firestorm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Didn't it used to be anyone who used the shadow weave at all started to go a little mad?
Halaster's insanity was partially to blame for tapping the shadow weave according to Mystra. She cured him of Shar's taint in Elminster in Hell
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe

Canada
801 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2012 :  13:06:23  Show Profile Send Firestorm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


We know it boosts strength and lends protection against mundane or magical attacks.

Does prolonged exposure to a substantial amount of shadowstuff make one an outsider? What other benefits does a human gain for possessing it? For one who's not strong of mind, will it make him mad? Do wizards have more chance of containing it in their bodies than ordinary people? Can a lich use it to strengthen his 'bones' indefinitely?


I have often wondered this as well. According to Lords of Darkness, Telamont Tanthul and Hadrhune were the only level 10 Shades(Or was SHA the shadow Adept level? it confused me to have both a wiz level and Sha level so I assumed that was shade powers)
Most of the other princes fell between 4-8.

In the books tho, The Most high seems to be easily the most advanced Shade. A being of pure Shadow magic who no longer ages at all. The sourcvebook made it seem like he was looking into Lichdom as his "outsider body began to fail"
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe

Canada
894 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2012 :  13:36:17  Show Profile Send Kilvan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

I have often wondered this as well. According to Lords of Darkness, Telamont Tanthul and Hadrhune were the only level 10 Shades(Or was SHA the shadow Adept level? it confused me to have both a wiz level and Sha level so I assumed that was shade powers)
Most of the other princes fell between 4-8.

In the books tho, The Most high seems to be easily the most advanced Shade. A being of pure Shadow magic who no longer ages at all. The sourcvebook made it seem like he was looking into Lichdom as his "outsider body began to fail"



Shadow adept (Sha) is a prestige class, so having 10 levels in Wiz and 10 levels in Sha is pretty legit. Shade is only a template, not an actual class/PrC

Oblivion loomed on every side, the offspring lived, basking in the realization that each moment could be the last moment.
--This was the beauty of chaos
--This was the beauty of Lolth
--This was the doom for all, but one

Quote from "Extinction"
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1489 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2012 :  14:04:07  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Well Galaeron from RotAW used shadowstuff, and it had an effect on him
Uh, that was using Shadow Weave.
"Shadowstuff" as such is just "magic plasticine" substance - a more malleable, but also more slapdash and "less-than-real" alternative to ethereal protomatter. I.e. good to quickly patch/shape something, as long as it's not supposed to be permanent job.
Galaeron's story was a very transparent Realms-ified take on one story by Ursula K. Le Guin.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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Quale
Master of Realmslore

1755 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2012 :  14:34:04  Show Profile Send Quale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Shadowstuff is neutral, prolonged exposure could give the shadow creature template.

A lich would not strengthen itself because negative energy is more real and sustaining than the shadowstuff.
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1489 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2012 :  15:06:01  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Quale

A lich would not strengthen itself because negative energy is more real and sustaining than the shadowstuff.
I wanted to answer that a lich won't get reinforced because shadowstuff is "not-fully-real", like shadow conjurations, etc. But then, Negative influence tend to degenerate matter, which in case of liches causes unattended body to gradually falls into dust.
So maybe the answer is: "a lich could shape and possess a shadowstuff-based body, but it would degenerate into tatters much faster than real one"? As in, hours/days instead of centuries/millenia.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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Quale
Master of Realmslore

1755 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2012 :  20:23:57  Show Profile Send Quale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

quote:
Originally posted by Quale

A lich would not strengthen itself because negative energy is more real and sustaining than the shadowstuff.
I wanted to answer that a lich won't get reinforced because shadowstuff is "not-fully-real", like shadow conjurations, etc. But then, Negative influence tend to degenerate matter, which in case of liches causes unattended body to gradually falls into dust.
So maybe the answer is: "a lich could shape and possess a shadowstuff-based body, but it would degenerate into tatters much faster than real one"? As in, hours/days instead of centuries/millenia.



Agreed except I think the time would be halved. And for Telamont's transformation a Suel lich would fit better than the usual, similar arcane traditions and its incorporeal essence is made of shadow-dark energy. Regular transformation could fail, he could become like the lich shades from the Tome of Horrors.
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2012 :  22:05:11  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan

If the shadow plane is the opposite of anything, it's the Material plane. I think it is closer to a law-chaos relation than good-evil.
I didn't say Light (good) is the opposite of Shadow. I only said that the proximity of Shadow to Darkness (evil) somehow enables it to share its dominant characteristics.

quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

Didn't it used to be anyone who used the shadow weave at all started to go a little mad?
That's why I thought perhaps the madness part is just transient, a stage where the shadows attempt to steel their user's mind. Or maybe a test: the weak of mind become permanently mad, while the strong get away from it and emerge stronger.

quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

The sourcebook made it seem like he was looking into Lichdom as his "outsider body began to fail."
Which makes sense, given that shadowstuff is not of the Material Plane. He can probably prolong his existence only if he stays in Shadowfell/Plane of Shadow.


quote:
Originally posted by Tbeholder

So maybe the answer is: "a lich could shape and possess a shadowstuff-based body, but it would degenerate into tatters much faster than real one"? As in, hours/days instead of centuries/millenia.
An interesting point. But if one is cast against the other, which of them should prevail? I distinctly recall Mephistopheles' temporary imprisonment in Shade. He possessed vast amount of Negative energy, yet was rendered helpless by Telamont's shadowstuff-infused chains. By your reasoning, a semi-real matter should not have stopped a fully real one. But it did, and quite effectively at that.

Every beginning has an end.

Edited by - Dennis on 30 Oct 2012 22:12:18
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Sandro
Learned Scribe

New Zealand
266 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2012 :  22:12:07  Show Profile  Click to see Sandro's MSN Messenger address Send Sandro a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From a purely rules standpoint, the feat Shadow Weave Magic in the 3e FRCS (which allowed access to the Shadow Weave, naturally) resulted in a 2 point loss to the character's Wisdom, so that could well be indicative of their decreased mental stability.

The loss was also permanent, as I recall, so that would suggest that even if you can cope with it, you'll never quite end up back where you started, mental health wise.

"Gods, little fishes, and spells to turn the one to the other," Mordenkainen sighed. "It's started already..."
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe

Canada
801 Posts

Posted - 31 Oct 2012 :  03:41:15  Show Profile Send Firestorm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan

quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

I have often wondered this as well. According to Lords of Darkness, Telamont Tanthul and Hadrhune were the only level 10 Shades(Or was SHA the shadow Adept level? it confused me to have both a wiz level and Sha level so I assumed that was shade powers)
Most of the other princes fell between 4-8.

In the books tho, The Most high seems to be easily the most advanced Shade. A being of pure Shadow magic who no longer ages at all. The sourcvebook made it seem like he was looking into Lichdom as his "outsider body began to fail"



Shadow adept (Sha) is a prestige class, so having 10 levels in Wiz and 10 levels in Sha is pretty legit. Shade is only a template, not an actual class/PrC



Yeah, I am trying to remember the rules of that prestige class. Same as the red wizard prestige class. I could not remember if those levels stacked on top of your wizard levels and how it affected spells you learn
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe

USA
304 Posts

Posted - 31 Oct 2012 :  10:18:03  Show Profile Send Tarlyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Shadow adept did grant additional caster lvls to a caster class you had. So a wiz 10/ Sha 10 casts spells like a 20th lvl wizard and has access to the spell progression of a 20th lvl wizard. Shadow adept can add to any caster class. So for example Prince Rivalen Wiz 11/Clr 15/Sha 7 could selected to cast spells as Wiz 18/Clr 15 or Wiz 11/Clr 22 or divide the seven additional caster lvls between the classes. However, it is a permanent allocation, so once the decision is made a character can't change it.

Tarlyn Embersun
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe

Canada
801 Posts

Posted - 31 Oct 2012 :  23:57:36  Show Profile Send Firestorm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tarlyn

Shadow adept did grant additional caster lvls to a caster class you had. So a wiz 10/ Sha 10 casts spells like a 20th lvl wizard and has access to the spell progression of a 20th lvl wizard. Shadow adept can add to any caster class. So for example Prince Rivalen Wiz 11/Clr 15/Sha 7 could selected to cast spells as Wiz 18/Clr 15 or Wiz 11/Clr 22 or divide the seven additional caster lvls between the classes. However, it is a permanent allocation, so once the decision is made a character can't change it.


Yeah I dusted off the old prestige class booklet for that.

I am still trying to figure out a few prestige classes. Brennus being a Lor I am assuming is loremaster. Doesn't do a lot for his caster level tho. Volumvax was a Cle7/Sha9/Dis5 with a Divine rank 0. I am assuming Dis is divine seeker? he had no Wizard levels but was considered a theurge.
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2012 :  05:59:43  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Sandro

The loss was also permanent, as I recall, so that would suggest that even if you can cope with it, you'll never quite end up back where you started, mental health wise.
Good point. And it makes sense, because given that, it would be relatively easy for Shar to influence or control those who tap on the Shadow Weave.

Shadows exist even outside the Shadowfell, and can be utilized even without having to tap on the SW. [Mephistopheles once told Cale that the shadows in Cania answer to him and him alone.] So, will shadowstuff not coming from Shadowfell or filtered through the SW not render one mad?

Every beginning has an end.

Edited by - Dennis on 12 Nov 2012 06:34:13
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