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Sonny
Acolyte

USA
8 Posts

Posted - 18 Oct 2012 :  09:34:05  Show Profile  Visit Sonny's Homepage Send Sonny a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha

It's definitely deceptive marketing, and a bad thing on WotC's part.

The good news is that even if it isn't the book we were waiting for, it is a very good book. Better than the vast majority of stuff published in 3e (that it's better than what little came out in 4e goes without saying). If we get more books along this line, with lore based in the 1350's but with brief notes on how things change over time, and if it's new and not rehashing 1e/2e stuff that's already out there, well, then I might just start buying again.

However, they promised us a book of Ed's original Realms as it was when he first turned it over to TSR. They should deliver on that promise.



Eh? What was promised was a look at the Forgotten Realms as it exists in Ed's home campaign. Not the Forgotten Realms as it was before TSR got it's hands on it.

It's very possible Ed has added people, gods, and events from the published version to his home campaign as it's progressed over the years.

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Hoondatha
Great Reader

USA
2394 Posts

Posted - 18 Oct 2012 :  12:47:08  Show Profile  Visit Hoondatha's Homepage Send Hoondatha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ed's home campaign hasn't even gotten to the Time of Troubles yet, let alone the 1400's. (Not that I mind the ToT, since I came to the Realms in 2e) So just from those references alone it's not "Ed's home Realms." It's something very nice, but it isn't what was promised.

Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well.
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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
2905 Posts

Posted - 18 Oct 2012 :  15:46:41  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I am still trying to wrap my mind around Mages merging with the Weave to make it stronger...

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4586 Posts

Posted - 18 Oct 2012 :  17:41:43  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage  Send Erik Scott de Bie an AOL message Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha

Ed's home campaign hasn't even gotten to the Time of Troubles yet, let alone the 1400's. (Not that I mind the ToT, since I came to the Realms in 2e) So just from those references alone it's not "Ed's home Realms." It's something very nice, but it isn't what was promised.
Not to be argumentative (because you make a good point), but what sort of product would have fulfilled that expectation? I don't think it's possible Ed could fit his Dalelands or Cormyr into this book, much less the entirety of his Realms. This book is a very general overview--a "glimpse" as promised.

What this book is, IMO, is a guide to running the realms the way Ed does it, which is without definite sourcebooks or pre-scripted adventures. It's a small look at an infinitely vast setting. So in that respect, it's exactly what WotC promised. To get a FULL view of Ed's Realms (which seems to have been the expectation of several scribes), we'd need at least 10-20+ more of these.

I hope the book does well and WotC gets the message that this is the sort of sourcebook we want and need, so we can start getting those 10-20 more. I think the next one should be ELMINSTER'S HEARTLANDS, by Ed Greenwood with Brian and Matt James (and whoever else Ed hand-picks for his support team), then DALELANDS, MOONSEA, SWORD COAST, DRAGON COAST, CORMYR, etc.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Signature of Shameless Self-Promotion +6: Order my sixth novel, Shadow of the Winter King (Amazon, e-signing, Dragonmoon Press)

Also check out my Realms work, most recently Shadowbane: Eye of Justice, out now on e-readers everywhere! (Kindle, Nook)
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4586 Posts

Posted - 18 Oct 2012 :  17:46:21  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage  Send Erik Scott de Bie an AOL message Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also a note about the tiefling picture: I saw that and thought "ah, 4e!" but honestly, a pre-4e tiefling could have looked like that, if she manifested those specific traits. What I'd really like to see is tieflings that look different as well, though I can understand only one tiefling pic in the book. I get the sense tieflings are very rare (if they exist at all) in Ed's campaign.

What about that pic of all the nobles with the bloody weapons? A little over the top, but hey, I get the point.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Signature of Shameless Self-Promotion +6: Order my sixth novel, Shadow of the Winter King (Amazon, e-signing, Dragonmoon Press)

Also check out my Realms work, most recently Shadowbane: Eye of Justice, out now on e-readers everywhere! (Kindle, Nook)
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Hoondatha
Great Reader

USA
2394 Posts

Posted - 18 Oct 2012 :  19:44:51  Show Profile  Visit Hoondatha's Homepage Send Hoondatha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

Also a note about the tiefling picture: I saw that and thought "ah, 4e!" but honestly, a pre-4e tiefling could have looked like that, if she manifested those specific traits. What I'd really like to see is tieflings that look different as well, though I can understand only one tiefling pic in the book. I get the sense tieflings are very rare (if they exist at all) in Ed's campaign.

What about that pic of all the nobles with the bloody weapons? A little over the top, but hey, I get the point.

Cheers



I didn't fully expand on that tiefling mention, since I was trying to answer a bunch of questions, but I agree that it's not necessarily a "4e tiefling." What I meant was that it was "4e-era tiefling art." At least I personally use the tiefling variety from Planescape, so I defintely think there are tieflings out there that look like that.

By the way, while we're on the subject of art, can I say how much I like much of the art in the book. Along with the page design as well, the border of the page is nice. And that entire tiefling artwork piece is really good.

Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well.
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Hoondatha
Great Reader

USA
2394 Posts

Posted - 18 Oct 2012 :  19:57:56  Show Profile  Visit Hoondatha's Homepage Send Hoondatha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Erik, on your larger post, I don't think anyone here ever thought that the book would be "the entirety of Ed's Realms." That's an impossibility, and everyone knows it. What I expected, and was led to believe from the marketing, was that this would be a guide/overview of the Realms as it was originally. The "single chef" days, if you will, before it was turned over to TSR and all of the other designers and authors joined in.

You can see some of that in the book: its more narrow geographic scope, the references to Thay and Rashemen and the deep south like Halruaa that conflict with existing regional sourcebooks. But at the same time you've got references to the 2e 1360's, the 3e 1370's, and the 4e 1400's all over the place. Gods that were never in Ed's Realms (Cyric and Finder). Gods that aren't as in the original Realms (Lurue). etc. The book exists in this weird in-between space, not the pure, original Ed's Realms that was promised, but not exactly a "modern day" Realms product either.

Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well.
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3338 Posts

Posted - 18 Oct 2012 :  20:07:15  Show Profile  Visit Dalor Darden's Homepage Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Tieflings do indeed exist in all versions of the Forgotten Realms if you ask me.

Originally, Cambions and Alu-Fiends were the spawn of the lower planes...and those have recorded spawn in the Forgotten Realms as well if I recall (I'll have to find the exact example). Even Xvim is a spawn of the lower planes.

I apply the word Tiefling loosely here mind you...but in even the earliest records of the Realms, I recall mortal scions of the lower planes existing in Realmslore.

Visit my Blog Page to find things for YOUR Forgotten Realms!
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Hoondatha
Great Reader

USA
2394 Posts

Posted - 18 Oct 2012 :  20:18:41  Show Profile  Visit Hoondatha's Homepage Send Hoondatha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, I agree completely. Very, very rare, but definitely present. But the question was whether there were any 4e tieflings (which is sort of an odd way of phrasing the question, actually - would a 2e tiefling have been more acceptable?) and all I was trying to say was that I hadn't seen any mentions of tieflings in the text, but that there was one drawing of a "4e style" tiefling on one page.

Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well.
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4586 Posts

Posted - 18 Oct 2012 :  21:52:08  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage  Send Erik Scott de Bie an AOL message Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I hear you, Hoondatha. I don't know for sure and don't want to speak for him, but I suspect Ed happily incorporated things from more current visions of the realms in order to be welcoming to fans of all eras. All along, he has stated that while his original realms didn't have things that were invented later, they still fit. I don't know if it's practical to provide products that completely kick that to the curb, but minimizing it seems reasonable, and that's what this book does.

I think a campaign run with the OGB and this book would be pretty darn awesome.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Signature of Shameless Self-Promotion +6: Order my sixth novel, Shadow of the Winter King (Amazon, e-signing, Dragonmoon Press)

Also check out my Realms work, most recently Shadowbane: Eye of Justice, out now on e-readers everywhere! (Kindle, Nook)
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3338 Posts

Posted - 18 Oct 2012 :  22:54:39  Show Profile  Visit Dalor Darden's Homepage Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

I hear you, Hoondatha. I don't know for sure and don't want to speak for him, but I suspect Ed happily incorporated things from more current visions of the realms in order to be welcoming to fans of all eras. All along, he has stated that while his original realms didn't have things that were invented later, they still fit. I don't know if it's practical to provide products that completely kick that to the curb, but minimizing it seems reasonable, and that's what this book does.

I think a campaign run with the OGB and this book would be pretty darn awesome.

Cheers



I agree...this book gave me glimpses of things the OGB didn't have room to touch on...and now that I have it, I feel that my game will be even more fun!

I especially like the small details that just didn't get included prior to now in something more "official" for me to draw from. Simple dishes, words, ideas, poisons...all amazing stuff.

Visit my Blog Page to find things for YOUR Forgotten Realms!
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30221 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2012 :  10:53:23  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Finally got my copy last night... Looking forward to reading it!

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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe

USA
304 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2012 :  11:37:14  Show Profile Send Tarlyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ed Greenwood Presents is great, it is like WotC found some lost never printed FR golden age product and released it.

Tarlyn Embersun
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arry
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
313 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2012 :  12:59:15  Show Profile Send arry a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha

It's definitely deceptive marketing, and a bad thing on WotC's part.

. . . they promised us a book of Ed's original Realms as it was when he first turned it over to TSR. They should deliver on that promise.



Once again, WotC promise one thing and deliver another; this was what I was afraid of

Thanks, but no thanks
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idilippy
Senior Scribe

USA
405 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2012 :  16:44:40  Show Profile Send idilippy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Before you say thanks but no thanks, for the sake of us ever getting a book like this again please give it a look first. If you read it and don't like it then of course don't buy it, but if this sells well we'll get more like it, so please make sure you don't like it before you opt out.
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Hoondatha
Great Reader

USA
2394 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2012 :  16:50:09  Show Profile  Visit Hoondatha's Homepage Send Hoondatha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Agreed. Though not what they promised, this book is still better than most if not all 3e Realms products, and it is mostly concerned with the 1350's and Heartlands. And it's got lots of really interesting things on the main pantheon (though no Sharess, sadly) and other areas that haven't been covered much. It's worth it from a lore perspective and a "WotC, do this more and better" perspective to pick up.

Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well.
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Hoondatha
Great Reader

USA
2394 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2012 :  18:15:27  Show Profile  Visit Hoondatha's Homepage Send Hoondatha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
For anyone who's curious about where we were getting the expectations that the book didn't entirely fulfill, check out the WotC quote in the post announcing the product.

http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16156

"... all your campaign notes, all the information you've been putting together for your FR campaign" to me sounds like "Ed's original campaign," what I've occasionally called the "single chef days."

Now, we can argue whether or not what we got is a good book (IMO it is), or if it gives us lore we've never had before (again, IMO it does), but looking at that product announcement I'm not sure how it's possible for someone to argue that it isn't the book that they were promising.

(cross-posted in the other product thread)

Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well.
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1361 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2012 :  18:32:25  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd really like to see Ed take a crack at the demihuman deities in the same format he did for the primary pantheon. Bet that'd be pretty slick. :)
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Hoondatha
Great Reader

USA
2394 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2012 :  18:37:38  Show Profile  Visit Hoondatha's Homepage Send Hoondatha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That would be VERY slick. And long overdue, especially if he can mostly avoid repeating lore from the older tome (as I think he was able to do in EFR, though I haven't had a chance to compare with F&A yet.

Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well.
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Sonny
Acolyte

USA
8 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2012 :  19:16:44  Show Profile  Visit Sonny's Homepage Send Sonny a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha

Ed's home campaign hasn't even gotten to the Time of Troubles yet, let alone the 1400's. (Not that I mind the ToT, since I came to the Realms in 2e) So just from those references alone it's not "Ed's home Realms." It's something very nice, but it isn't what was promised.



Actually, my point was he could have added them to his home campaign regardless or origin or time. It's quite possible to add Cyric without needing to have the Times of Trouble, by just adding a new origin for the god. Many DMs already do this type of thing as they pilfer ideas and characters from various settings.

However, it sounds like there's also references to future events which would make my point/idea invalid, and this definitely isn't the book they said it would be. =/

Still, it's good to hear that the book is still worth getting and reading though. I wish they had stuck to their original plan though.
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Hoondatha
Great Reader

USA
2394 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2012 :  19:31:52  Show Profile  Visit Hoondatha's Homepage Send Hoondatha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ah, I see. Yes, that's a valid point; he could have added Cyric if he wanted to.

And I agree completely with your two last points.

Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well.
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3338 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2012 :  20:03:46  Show Profile  Visit Dalor Darden's Homepage Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It is still pure gold. There isn't one part of this book that is "bad"...though there are parts I may not use; it is still one of the most awesome books TSR/WotC ever printed for the Forgotten Realms hands down.

Visit my Blog Page to find things for YOUR Forgotten Realms!
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rjfras
Learned Scribe

261 Posts

Posted - 20 Oct 2012 :  01:45:20  Show Profile  Visit rjfras's Homepage Send rjfras a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't know why people say this isn't information from Ed's Realms. If you pay attention, you will notice that many of the foods, plants, poisons and a few other things are stuff that we've seen posted here on Candlekeep in the Ask Ed section, where he has given us lore to questions we've asked. Quite a bit of it was incorporated into the book.

Some of the entries in the book are almost word for word of stuff THO has posted here from Ed...
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Sylrae
Learned Scribe

Canada
306 Posts

Posted - 20 Oct 2012 :  12:06:24  Show Profile Send Sylrae a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think the complaint isn't "It's not the stuff from Ed's Realms" so much as "There's stuff in there that's not in Ed's Realms, and there shouldn't be."

Sylrae's Forgotten Realms Fan-Lore Index, with public commenting access to make for easier improvement (WIP)
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3338 Posts

Posted - 31 Oct 2012 :  00:58:01  Show Profile  Visit Dalor Darden's Homepage Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Reading back a bit looking for information related to the area of the Moonsea, I found this post by THO:

quote:

The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
4378 Posts
Posted - 23 Aug 2010 : 17:51:05


Oh, a postscript: this would have been around 1358 or 1359 DR (the time of our visit to Loudwater). Torm visited the neighborhood again in 1361, and it hadn't changed much, to my (admittedly VERY fuzzy) recollection of what was said at the time between Ed and Victor (Torm's player).
love,
THO



It looks like Ed's home game has in fact had the ToT in it...and thus perhaps Cyric as well...

Visit my Blog Page to find things for YOUR Forgotten Realms!
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