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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Sep 2012 : 23:11:16
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Are there any archsorcerers on Toril besides the Simbul?
Some of the older material might have mentioned wizards who are probably meant to have been sorcerers all along.
What historic races might have favored sorcery over wizardry?
The Raumathari were primarily sorcerers, and certain bloodlines were especially gifted in using evocation magics against fiends.
Some of the wizards of netheril are called Sorcerer-Kings. Is that an indication they might have practised the less scholarly arcane Art?
Hathran and Durthran magics seems to feel more sorcerous than wizardly.
Are there any contenders I missed?
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2012 : 02:10:15
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I think that there was an element of the Netherese magical community that were sorcerers. Ed's "Wyrms of the North" article for Miirym refers to the Archsorcerer Torth who is Netherese IIRC.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2012 : 05:24:05
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In the Border Kingdom articles on the WotC site, Ed himself used the term in his Derlusk article regarding one Jonsra Burunmere, former stablemaid, "now ArchSorceress Supreme of the island realm of Shamandra". She is a "CG female Chondathan human Sor16."
Article link: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frbk/20060705a
While a 16th level is not in the same league as the Simbul (but I tend to think the Chosen stats were inflated due to poor design when updating them from 2E to 3E/3.5E), Jonsra is quite a potent spellcaster.
Edit:
The same article also notes Amaryth Delbara (Sor14/Incant6). A level 20 character with full spellcasting capability, all derived from spontaneous/sorcerous spellcasting. |
Edited by - Dark Wizard on 17 Sep 2012 05:27:03 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2012 : 06:42:05
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Princes Clariburnus Tanthul, Yder Tanthul, and Aglarel Tanthul are arch-sorcerers, though hardly of The Simbul's caliber. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2012 : 07:39:00
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| There is some indication that Bowug Kr'kri was in fact a sorcerer. Given the last name could be a deravation of the honorific Kr'kristus, which was blood of the dragon in Black speech. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
657 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2012 : 10:15:52
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| Ondil of the Many Spells? from Thaeravel |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2012 : 13:49:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Some of the wizards of netheril are called Sorcerer-Kings. Is that an indication they might have practised the less scholarly arcane Art?
I doubt it -- by and large, in the Realms the word 'sorcerer' doesn't refer to the 3E class, it means the same as wizard or mage but with slightly more sinister connotations. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2012 : 15:48:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Are there any archsorcerers on Toril besides the Simbul?
Some of the older material might have mentioned wizards who are probably meant to have been sorcerers all along.
What historic races might have favored sorcery over wizardry?
The Raumathari were primarily sorcerers, and certain bloodlines were especially gifted in using evocation magics against fiends.
Some of the wizards of netheril are called Sorcerer-Kings. Is that an indication they might have practised the less scholarly arcane Art?
Hathran and Durthran magics seems to feel more sorcerous than wizardly.
Are there any contenders I missed?
While I can say there were probably sorcerors amongst the Raumathari, I don't recall any sources indicating that sorcery was favored amongst them. If anything, I'd be more inclined to call them either warmages or wizards who pursued the eldritch knight,spellsword, and/or Raumathari Battlemage prestige classes.
I could see sorcerors amongst their enemies (the Narfellians), and in fact the Narfellian demonbinder prestige class is geared towards sorcerors. Given that the Narfellians had demonic heritages from which inherent sorcery may have sprang, I wouldn't be surprised at all if they had a ton of sorcerors interspersed with wizards. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2012 : 15:55:09
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Are there any archsorcerers on Toril besides the Simbul?
Some of the older material might have mentioned wizards who are probably meant to have been sorcerers all along.
What historic races might have favored sorcery over wizardry?
The Raumathari were primarily sorcerers, and certain bloodlines were especially gifted in using evocation magics against fiends.
Some of the wizards of netheril are called Sorcerer-Kings. Is that an indication they might have practised the less scholarly arcane Art?
Hathran and Durthran magics seems to feel more sorcerous than wizardly.
Are there any contenders I missed?
While I can say there were probably sorcerors amongst the Raumathari, I don't recall any sources indicating that sorcery was favored amongst them. If anything, I'd be more inclined to call them either warmages or wizards who pursued the eldritch knight,spellsword, and/or Raumathari Battlemage prestige classes.
I could see sorcerors amongst their enemies (the Narfellians), and in fact the Narfellian demonbinder prestige class is geared towards sorcerors. Given that the Narfellians had demonic heritages from which inherent sorcery may have sprang, I wouldn't be surprised at all if they had a ton of sorcerors interspersed with wizards.
Speaking of Narfell and its "magic systems", I can also see there being dread necromancers due to Orcus' influence, as well as archivist/wizard/mystic theurges that followed demon cults. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2012 : 03:53:15
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From what I've read, most Nar spellcasters are called 'wizards.' Even in RLB's The Masked Witches, they're called Nar wizards. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2388 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2012 : 16:50:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Some of the wizards of netheril are called Sorcerer-Kings. Is that an indication they might have practised the less scholarly arcane Art?
Netherese arcanist didn't memorize. At all. See "Netheril - Empire of Magic".
So it's more of "how would you tell the difference?" problem. Especially given that 3e sorcerers are little more than an undefined "what to do with Charisma?" thing. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2012 : 17:10:42
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Some of the wizards of netheril are called Sorcerer-Kings. Is that an indication they might have practised the less scholarly arcane Art?
Netherese arcanist didn't memorize. At all. See "Netheril - Empire of Magic".
So it's more of "how would you tell the difference?" problem. Especially given that 3e sorcerers are little more than an undefined "what to do with Charisma?" thing.
I assumed that they built upon the lore of dragon magic that dates back to the twelth century. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2012 : 22:24:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
From what I've read, most Nar spellcasters are called 'wizards.' Even in RLB's The Masked Witches, they're called Nar wizards.
Yeah, never said they were exclusivly sorcerors. I'm just saying that the prestige class that is based upon them is specifically geared more for sorcerors (they gain spells known like sorcerors and its states they cast spells as sorcerors). Also, that given their demonic heritage, sorcery would tend to be more common to them than the regular human bloodline. Meanwhile the Raumathari battlemage prestige class is geared equally towards either wizards or sorcerors and their race doesn't have any indication of a non-human bloodline in it so much (though they may have had some sorcerors with fey and elemental blood in them). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2012 : 05:35:54
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Lord Dyrr formerly of Menzoberranzan was a sorcerer, and Lady Yhelbrunna (Level 28 in Spellbound of Rashemen.)) She is described as one of the most powerful spellcasters on the continent in the same league as Szass Tam and the Simbul. I don't remember her stats for 3e, they made her a cleric/sorcerer/hathran which would make her much less powerful realistically than in Spellbound.
I assume the Witches of Rashemen are primarily sorceresses based on the Unapproachable East book. I think Derro savants are sorcerers, too. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2012 : 06:57:13
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| I wonder how in general sorcerers and sorcery itself will be fleshed out in 5e? I hope they do a good job. Wizards and wizardry in general needs a good boost as well. |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2012 : 14:47:42
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
Lord Dyrr formerly of Menzoberranzan was a sorcerer, and Lady Yhelbrunna (Level 28 in Spellbound of Rashemen.)) She is described as one of the most powerful spellcasters on the continent in the same league as Szass Tam and the Simbul. I don't remember her stats for 3e, they made her a cleric/sorcerer/hathran which would make her much less powerful realistically than in Spellbound.
I assume the Witches of Rashemen are primarily sorceresses based on the Unapproachable East book. I think Derro savants are sorcerers, too.
I don't think Lady Yhelbrunna was ever officially stat'd for 3.0 or 3.5. Personally, I don't see the use of sorcerors as hathrans, since one of their prime abilities is place magic and they rarely leave their country. Personally, since she was lvl 28 in spellbound, I'd put Lady Yhelbruna as a 5 wizard/3 cleric (Mystra) / 10 hathran/ 10 mystic theurge OR just as another option a 3 wizard / 3 druid (Miellikki) / 10 hathran / 10 arcane hierophant/ 2 mystic theurge (probably the former, as her picture shows her more in robes and less "druidic"). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2012 : 15:14:17
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| I believe The othlors in the unapproachable east were largely sorcerers not wizards though. I think she was stated but I could not find it. Her stats were not optimized though as I think would make sense for someone who is described as so powerful. Much as the simbul was a sorcerer 20 wizard 10 rather than like a sorcerer 20 arch age 10 as I choose to imagine because it makes more sense. |
Edited by - MrHedgehog on 20 Sep 2012 15:16:38 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2012 : 13:32:27
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
I believe The othlors in the unapproachable east were largely sorcerers not wizards though. I think she was stated but I could not find it. Her stats were not optimized though as I think would make sense for someone who is described as so powerful. Much as the simbul was a sorcerer 20 wizard 10 rather than like a sorcerer 20 arch age 10 as I choose to imagine because it makes more sense.
Yeah, I choose to believe the Simbul's more of a wizard 5/ sorceror 1/ ultimate magus 10 / archmage 4/ master transmogrifist 10 (and being a lvl 19 wizard/17 sorceror for caster levels).
I think it would be interesting though to discuss what her 7 favored shapes would be for master transmogrifist, given that she'd be using polymorph and alter self more than shapechange (as with her class, she'd gain the special attacks AND qualities of that which she polymorphed into). Given the restrictions on polymorph, it would need to be aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, ooze, plant or vermin (so no outsiders) for probably the first 5 shapes, but the last 2 might be outsiders with unusual special attacks or qualities (personally, I favor the Mur-Zhagul aka demon-troll). She might pick to mix and match qualities too with her final class ability. I'd imagine at least one such favored shape would also be a fey race that can almost pass for human, such that she might actually use that almost all the time. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2012 : 20:00:58
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I haven't read novels focusing on her (I -want- to read the Simbuls gift but...) so I don't know what her particular powers should be. All I remember is she can become a bird and lightning?? She does not need to follow the rules - if memory serves she can become chain lightning spells after all. (But my memory might not) She just isn't on the same level as the Zulkirs as she was stated in 3e much less able to scare them off with her power against them all. They seemed to avoid using prestige classes that were not readily available (like ultimate magus and transmogrifist) so people would not feel frustrated at not having that supplement, maybe?
They had a habit of making NPCs not have very ideal levels I found. I know they aren't living their lives looking at charts and powers but sometimes it seemed strange. Ningal, for example, being Ftr4/Sor8/Brd4 would not be as effectively powerful as she is described to be. She might be versatile but in a fight against a level 16 fighter, sorcerer, or bard I don't think she'd be equally powerful. |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2012 : 21:24:57
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| Indeed, many 3E era Realms NPCs had some rather odd combinations of classes and levels. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2012 : 22:50:46
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
I haven't read novels focusing on her (I -want- to read the Simbuls gift but...) so I don't know what her particular powers should be. All I remember is she can become a bird and lightning?? She does not need to follow the rules - if memory serves she can become chain lightning spells after all. (But my memory might not) She just isn't on the same level as the Zulkirs as she was stated in 3e much less able to scare them off with her power against them all. They seemed to avoid using prestige classes that were not readily available (like ultimate magus and transmogrifist) so people would not feel frustrated at not having that supplement, maybe?
They had a habit of making NPCs not have very ideal levels I found. I know they aren't living their lives looking at charts and powers but sometimes it seemed strange. Ningal, for example, being Ftr4/Sor8/Brd4 would not be as effectively powerful as she is described to be. She might be versatile but in a fight against a level 16 fighter, sorcerer, or bard I don't think she'd be equally powerful.
That comes more from simply not having the time to stat out all these NPC's. They've got a bunch of stuff to write, so they throw together a bunch of class levels to give you an idea of what they're like. However, yeah, that Ningal build is insanely bad. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2388 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2012 : 13:31:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Netherese arcanist didn't memorize. At all. See "Netheril - Empire of Magic".
So it's more of "how would you tell the difference?" problem. Especially given that 3e sorcerers are little more than an undefined "what to do with Charisma?" thing.
I assumed that they built upon the lore of dragon magic that dates back to the twelth century.
Netherese got their magic first from elves (Eaerlanni), but mostly from Golden Skins of the World Serpent (the result of Sarrukh research, created before the dragons' domination era). |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2012 : 13:38:55
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| I was responding to the comment that sorcerers were merely a mechanic for Cha, or simply as an alternative to wizards, which the comment replied to implied. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2388 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2012 : 13:57:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
I was responding to the comment that sorcerers were merely a mechanic for Cha, or simply as an alternative to wizards, which the comment replied to implied.
I don't imply. I put it very direct and matter-of-factly: in AD&D2 (maybe starting from Net Wizard's Handbook) and PO era there already were channelers. Which was mostly the same idea - except with exhaustion. And as body-taxing magic without "oh, where to put Cha in hack'n'slash?" and/or "Ponies & Unicorns: Cuteness Is Magic" undertow it looks much more sensible...  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2012 : 14:14:30
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So, if they'd made it Con based instead you'd have less of a problem with it?
That would have made more sense to me, but if I started to discuss all the inconsistencies and things that don't make sense with D&D, it would take me a very, very long time. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2012 : 23:54:09
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Never heard of channelers. What book were they in? Sounds awesome in concept. Perhaps broken in execution? I can see a caster class with a ton of overcharged bonus HP and dc's linked to a con score being a slight problem...
Funny but Ningal has caused a TPK in a sandbox Chessenta campaign I ran, because the party was heavily underleveled and unprepared. I learned not to tempt players with too great riches because they will try and die to get them, regardless of hints.
________
What did you think of the 'slightly new' interpretation of the D&D next sorcerer? It shifts the focus from the blood of the sorcerer to its soul. A sorcerer 'controls' its magic with his dual-soul other half, often barely containing the arcane powers of the monstrous/celestial/destined/ancient aspect of their souls.
I think it makes for both interesting roleplay and active story. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2012 : 01:47:26
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
I haven't read novels focusing on her (I -want- to read the Simbuls gift but...) so I don't know what her particular powers should be.
I highly recommend it. Lynn Abbey's depiction of the Simbul is as good as Ed's. Not only will you see her in action, you'll also get to see her thoughts about Thay's rulers, and you'll learn the origin of her name.
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
She just isn't on the same level as the Zulkirs as she was stated in 3e much less able to scare them off with her power against them all.
No, she's not. She's way too powerful when compared to each of them. But she herself admitted that she'd never face them all at once. If they manage to pool their powers against her alone, she'd be helpless. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2012 : 08:41:19
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| Dennis I meant a 20 sorcerer / 10 wizard is not as powerful as a ...whatever Szass Tam's stats are. To me a 20 sorcerer / 10 wizard is like a level 20 character and level 10 character combined, with weaker powers than if it was a level 30 character. Should she even be able to do the fantastic things she is described as doing as she is stated? |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2012 : 09:36:19
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You may be mistaken, then. I recommend you also read Ed's Silverfall, particularly Alassra's part. [That is, if you haven't yet.] There, you'll get to see how the Simbul gave the Red Wizards a 'taste' of her fury. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2012 : 14:19:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
You may be mistaken, then. I recommend you also read Ed's Silverfall, particularly Alassra's part. [That is, if you haven't yet.] There, you'll get to see how the Simbul gave the Red Wizards a 'taste' of her fury.
Hedgehog's right. There's a disconnect between the novel descriptions and the presentation she was given in 3e/3.5e. Silverfall was during 2nd edition, when she was a wizard of like level 30'ish. I understand their want to make a powerful sorceror, and the Simbul was somewhat a good choice. The problems came in that they never came out with the ultimate magi prestige class until near the end of 3.5, which she definitely would have used. Couple that with the fact that previous lore has the Simbul being a spellcaster with a wide array of spells available (enough that she also developed a lot of triggering magics as well). That lore doesn't mesh well with the idea that she was a powerful sorceror, unless she was also a powerful wizard as well. That's why I chose the build I specified earlier (along with the lore that she's heavily into shapechanging magic). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2012 : 22:32:06
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Not only that, the FRCS came out before the Epic Players Handbook, many characters had ad hoc epic rules in the FRCS. One of the alternative routes for characters hitting Level 20 was to pick up levels in another class. While not the most terrible thing to inflict rules/lore verisimilitude, this isn't ideal or even functionally on par with a more in depth solution, doubly so for spellcasters.
May I reiterate how I dislike the Realms getting the first run through of any new rules set, being made the guinea pig for the designer's learning curve.
I hope this is another thing WotC has learned over the years. Level 20 IS high level and epic. Eberron realized this, the realization came too late for the Realms. Then the negativity took hold based on this skewed representation of Realms characters through a flawed interpretation of the rules. |
Edited by - Dark Wizard on 27 Sep 2012 22:33:37 |
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Arch-Sorcerers and ancient sorcery?
