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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Sep 2012 : 05:21:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Emma Drake
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
I wouldn't be suprised if Lolth's priestess didn't have a spell to cause spontanious oberts of the infent, which they could cast the moment they realized they were with child. And given the flexability and strength of the skins of the giant mushrooms that are grown there, I could see a number of different coverings being made, for both sexes. the most common and likely issue being redening of the area and genital itching.
I'd more readily expect a spell to prevent contraception altogether.
While there might be a spell for abortions, I agree with Wooly - it's just easier to have an item, spell, or elixir that prevents conception.
(Did you actually mean to write contraception instead of conception, Wooly? If so, I apologize for putting words in your mouth!)
Indeed.  |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2012 : 05:26:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Being fruitful and multiplying is NOT one of Lolth's tenets. 
From 2nd quote:
Since the Time of Troubles, Lolth has assumed additional aspects as two
of her many stratagems to increase the ranks of her faithful and thus
her own personal power.
I will grant, that conversion clearly was part of her plan, if not full plan, however clearly indicated at that time wanted higher numbers.
There are other ways to increase numbers, beyond sidelining your priestesses and reducing their effectiveness for several months. Impersonating other deities, for example, like Moander. Taking out competition, like in the Lady Penitent trilogy. Increasing your own power (and thus appeal), like in the War of the Spider Queen. Forced conversion, slaying the worshippers of other powers, etc.
Also, withdrawing and bestowing favor at random and encouraging a Darwinian society -- those aren't things that increase your numbers of worshippers. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2012 : 06:51:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Being fruitful and multiplying is NOT one of Lolth's tenets.
From 2nd quote:
Since the Time of Troubles, Lolth has assumed additional aspects as two
of her many stratagems to increase the ranks of her faithful and thus
her own personal power.
I will grant, that conversion clearly was part of her plan, if not full plan, however clearly indicated at that time wanted higher numbers.
Which is all well and good, but that doesn't really equate with what Erik was saying earlier about "being fruitful and multiplying" not being one of Lolth's tenets.
Lolth's intent to increase her power by increasing her faithful reads more like personal ambition, than any broader-reaching expansion of her core philosophy.
More likely, Lolth would only allow the expansion of her faith via a relaxing of contraceptives, if it ensured her own personal desire to increase her power and rule over the drow. Otherwise, the numbered threats Erik noted above, will become a real concern for her. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2012 : 16:54:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
Perhaps, although preventing the act doesn't seem in Lalth's nature no does it. It seems more like her to say, you have to deal with it and get rid of it yourself, this way. Still, that's not to say that some arcane method hadn't been developed. The last part however, involved the underdark as a whole, and the fact that commoners among the dark elves may not have access to such magics.
I agree with this idea, plus, whether the new life is born or not (and I'm not wanting to start an abortion argument, just stress how evil Drow are) they've just theoretically snuffed out a soul... a soul that can be sacrificed to their deity to use. Hell, maybe there are some atropals that are actually created through accumulation of this type of soul energy (rather than being the flesh of a god). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2012 : 20:27:43
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| This subject raises another question for me- what if some Underdark races practice selective child-birth? I'm mainly thinking of drow here, of course, since in some cities it is canonicly a situation that might have occured; like in Sshamath, male births began to vastly outnumber female births, which led to the eventual uprising that turned the city into a wizard-run settlement, with Lolth's priestesses being relegated to the side-lines. So it's possible that some priestesses might see that as a lesson to be learned, and use magic or other means to determine the gender of the child before it's born, to decide whether or not to abort or sacrifice? If they started having too many sons, they might not want to give birth to another one, and would either use herbal remedies, magic, or otehr means to abort it, or simply sacrifice it after its born. Any thoughts? |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2012 : 20:38:45
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| If too many males are present in a city i could see the city send out suicide groups which i think is talked about in The Drow of the Underdark 2e. That way they can reduce the number of males and at the same time take on threats or do raids with the returning males maybe being granted benefits like breeding with a higher status female, which would play into the cards of a drow male who seeks to increase his status by becoming partner of a noble female for example. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Emma Drake
Learned Scribe
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2012 : 21:04:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Yeah, but why would they ever let it get to that point in the first place? That was my point. If they start having too many male babies, it might be better to kill them off when they are born- or before- and try again for a girl. (Probably with a different partner, if they have been having all boys with one particular male partner- like a reverse Henry VIII...)
I think that if priestesses of Lolth had a way to detect the sex of a child they would certainly engage in selective abortions.
However, this causes problems (as seen in India right now in the real world) because everyone would be choosing to have the more "valuable" gendered children (in this case women), leading to an imbalance that in turn leads to a dearth of the less "valuable" gendered children (in this FR example, men). When there is such an imbalance, more power actually passes to the gender that is in the minority. It takes men to make babies and if there are fewer men, it would lead to men having more power. Lolth doesn't want that. Population gender balance is tricky - don't want too many because they gain in power - don't want too few because they gain in power.
Also, I think that if this sort of selective birth was practiced, we would have heard about it in lore. That's pretty big news. We certainly hear all about the willingness of drow women to sacrifice children to Lolth, so why would we not have also read about this, if it existed? |
"I am always here, all about you. You are never truly alone. I flow wherever life flows, wherever winds blow and water runs and the sun and moon chase each other, for there is magic in all things."
- Mystra (Ed Greenwood, Silverfall) |
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Emma Drake
Learned Scribe
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2012 : 21:14:00
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I love the discussion of this topic. It's interesting to me, as is probably obvious! I really like that while this discussion has remained close to the original topic, it has become a much deeper discussion about reproductive norms, cultural gender roles, and societal needs. I'm getting more from it than I originally expected. Thanks so much!
As much as I love talking about the drow (who doesn't like talking about sexy, hedonistic, empowered women?)...
Does anyone have any information on other Underdark races, such as duergar, svirfneblin, or others?
Is the consensus that they would use herbal remedies (like those mentioned by THO) in those instances where they wanted to avoid pregnancy?
How do you think resource management, population loss due to the dangers of the Underdark, monogamy (or lack thereof), etc (all of those things we've talked about so far that affect the desire to use contraception) affect these other races? |
"I am always here, all about you. You are never truly alone. I flow wherever life flows, wherever winds blow and water runs and the sun and moon chase each other, for there is magic in all things."
- Mystra (Ed Greenwood, Silverfall) |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2012 : 21:43:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Emma Drake
I love the discussion of this topic. It's interesting to me, as is probably obvious! I really like that while this discussion has remained close to the original topic, it has become a much deeper discussion about reproductive norms, cultural gender roles, and societal needs. I'm getting more from it than I originally expected. Thanks so much!
As much as I love talking about the drow (who doesn't like talking about sexy, hedonistic, empowered women?)...
Does anyone have any information on other Underdark races, such as duergar, svirfneblin, or others?
Is the consensus that they would use herbal remedies (like those mentioned by THO) in those instances where they wanted to avoid pregnancy?
How do you think resource management, population loss due to the dangers of the Underdark, monogamy (or lack thereof), etc (all of those things we've talked about so far that affect the desire to use contraception) affect these other races?
With regards to duergar, their races isn't prolific enough, so I see them seeing any birth as a bit of a blessing (especially if its a female as male births tend to dominate amongst dwarves for some reason). If their community has grown too large to feed for themselves, then its simply a reason to go conquer new territory and enslave other populations to grow food for them.
I'd feel the same way for svirfneblin regarding not being prolific enough. The only time I see this becoming a problem is if the community is suffering from a lack of resources. Since they tend to be more defensive than aggressive, I don't see them necessarily seizing other group's resources (though they may use illusions to steal such and have no qualms about it). In lean times, yes, I could see them using contraception.
Derro would probably follow the same standards as duergar, even though they're a bit more unstable.
I can't really think of any other cultures that this kind of thing might apply in the underdark. Aberrations like illithids don't reproduce the same way, and other creatures are too bestial to consider using contraception. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2012 : 03:50:36
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Yeah, I don't see kobolds or goblins doing it. But I'd think that drow would be the most likely, as seems to be the consensus, and for exactly the reasons given. Svirfnebli would probably be the LEAST likely to do so, since they seem to value all their community's members, especially the children. The part of Exile set in Blingdenstone seems to show this.
However, I don't see that drow selectively aborting male children would give males any more power in Lolthite society. I also don't think they would do it all the time, just when the numbers of males began to seriously outweigh the number of females. However, in the event that an imbalance occured in the opposite direction, fewer males would also mean that they would be even less able to stand against the Matrons and priestesses, since they would not have the numbers to do so effectively, given that most are common soldiers, with only a select few being wizards, sorcerers, rogues, or specialist warriors or other types. They might become more "valuable", but that would simply make the priestesses more covetous of the few there are, and more likely to steal them, or possibly raid other drow cities for male "breeders".
I'm loving this discussion, as it makes for a very interesting look at the societies in question- whether to have children or not would seem to be an important decision in such a harsh and dangerous environment, though the insulation of living in towns or cities in the Underdark would certainly make this safer. But resources must be considered, as well, so perhaps with duargar or svirfneblin settlements, they might need to seek permission from the head of the community before having a child? That would seem to make sense. What say you all? |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2012 : 13:28:59
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Why not condoms made from organic materials? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2012 : 14:34:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Yeah, I don't see kobolds or goblins doing it. But I'd think that drow would be the most likely, as seems to be the consensus, and for exactly the reasons given. Svirfnebli would probably be the LEAST likely to do so, since they seem to value all their community's members, especially the children. The part of Exile set in Blingdenstone seems to show this.
However, I don't see that drow selectively aborting male children would give males any more power in Lolthite society. I also don't think they would do it all the time, just when the numbers of males began to seriously outweigh the number of females. However, in the event that an imbalance occured in the opposite direction, fewer males would also mean that they would be even less able to stand against the Matrons and priestesses, since they would not have the numbers to do so effectively, given that most are common soldiers, with only a select few being wizards, sorcerers, rogues, or specialist warriors or other types. They might become more "valuable", but that would simply make the priestesses more covetous of the few there are, and more likely to steal them, or possibly raid other drow cities for male "breeders".
I'm loving this discussion, as it makes for a very interesting look at the societies in question- whether to have children or not would seem to be an important decision in such a harsh and dangerous environment, though the insulation of living in towns or cities in the Underdark would certainly make this safer. But resources must be considered, as well, so perhaps with duargar or svirfneblin settlements, they might need to seek permission from the head of the community before having a child? That would seem to make sense. What say you all?
I don't know how you feel about transporting none-realms sources into the Realms, but Kyzterhers Song of the Spear, has the dwarvan society set around the idea that the priests determine the amount of resources the city had, and then the determination of whether or not familes could have children or not. Those familes given permission wwent to the priest and drank a small potion called "Urbtain," which would "open the womb" and allow the woman to bare children. without the use of this the dwarvan women couldn't bare children... their bareness was the consequence of a fight between the Gods. The giant gods and the dwarvan gods, interestingly enough... I remember a scroll about that topic somewhere.
As for the "Deep Gnomes," as differed from the "hill Gnomes," familes paticioned for the right to have children, having a child without permission was a fineable offense, and the child was taken away to be raised by the state and would remain a servent of the state for life.
Just some thoughts. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2012 : 21:37:06
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aberrant symbionts attached to the ...
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z455t |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2012 : 22:03:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Why not condoms made from organic materials?
Yeah, I mentioned using tied off sausage tubing made from intestines earlier |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2012 : 17:22:39
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Did not Liriel once remark that no Drow female with the slightest access to magic ever got pregnant unless she wanted to. So i don't think there are really that many unplanned pregnancies in the extremely matriarchal drow society.
Having children is a calculated act, designed to bolster your own power and influence, just like everything else in Drow society. |
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EytanBernstein
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
704 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2012 : 15:30:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
Did not Liriel once remark that no Drow female with the slightest access to magic ever got pregnant unless she wanted to. So i don't think there are really that many unplanned pregnancies in the extremely matriarchal drow society.
Having children is a calculated act, designed to bolster your own power and influence, just like everything else in Drow society.
This would seem to me to be the most likely event. I don't buy that drow would just want to have as many children as they can get. I can't imagine priestesses allowing anything out of their control. Despite the "official" chaos of Lolth's philosophy, Drow are in general, incredible control freaks. If you aren't on top of your game, you might be taken down a notch or worse. Being pregnant definitely makes combat more precarious. Also, each drow priestess has her own plan for how to reach the top. Some may want more children, but others might not want any.
I would think the Svirfneblin would be a little bit less insane in terms of exerting personal control, but even then, they are a wise and careful race. I imagine that they have their own birth control methods. Given that they are rebuilding, they might be more inclined to greater numbers of children, but they are also individuals, and they are more spread out than they once were.
The same is probably true for the duergar. I just don't see a uniform policy or tradition on it. In the Underdark, no matter what race you are, you need to be in control. Drow, duergar, and deep gnomes are not the highest rung on the food chain, so they probably try to plan pregnancies - as much as they're able - for times when they feel less threatened. Some individuals might choose to have a child at any given time, but it's hard to be pregnant when mind flayers are laying siege to your town to enslave it or when purple worms are marauding about.
That doesn't mean that accidents don't happen, even when they use contraceptives, though a magical end to the pregnancy is usually pretty definite. |
http://eytanbernstein.com - the official website of Eytan Bernstein |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2012 : 17:14:07
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| I find all of this very interesting, but there seems to be an implicit assumption that pregnancy occurs along readily predictable guidelines. If Tolkiens guide is the norm, which it seems to be with much in D&D,then pregnancy for the Drow, is a difficult affair, just as it would be fore all elves (see People's of Mild Earth 126-127, and 135). While that's not to say planning isn't involved, it would have to be, a great deal, there is still a relative degree of uncertainty in the act. This does not dispute anything that is above, at least not to a significant degree, other posts still largely apply to the race, I am only pointing out an assumption that seems to be occuring with some degree of frequency, when the posts are submitted to a Martinson's test of implicit order of thinking. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2012 : 17:24:25
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Drow are more fertile than surface Elves. If you meant to compare the contraception of the two then the drow would, under the same given circumstances, outnumber the surface elves. Only the hostility of the Underdark wildlife and the conflicts displayed within the drow society those numbers are kept lower.
Of course this now raises the question what made the drow who were sufrace Elves before the Crown Wars become more fertile than their cousins who were not driven underground.
Either divine intervention by Araunshee/Lolth to not have her followers perish at the natives of the underdark at that time or they ate fungi, mosses or herbs that altered their biology over time. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2012 : 17:54:15
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How do we know they are more firtle?
Greater numbers?
If so, then fertility might not be the key, but better planning and survivability. One thing one can say about Drow society, there are certainly elements of Victoralism in play. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Emma Drake
Learned Scribe
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2012 : 18:07:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
How do we know they are more firtle?
In the 2e Drow of the Underdark, on page 17, it states that a long-lived female drow will birth 10 children in her life (considerably more than surface elves).
In the 3e Drow of the Underdark, on page 24, there is a sidebar that outlines "Pregnancy, Birth, and Childhood" in which it says explicitly, "The drow are notably more fertile than are their surface-dwelling cousins. They become pregnant more easily and have a slightly shorter gestation period." |
"I am always here, all about you. You are never truly alone. I flow wherever life flows, wherever winds blow and water runs and the sun and moon chase each other, for there is magic in all things."
- Mystra (Ed Greenwood, Silverfall) |
Edited by - Emma Drake on 21 Sep 2012 18:10:06 |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2012 : 18:19:15
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Thanks, didn't know that.
My first two guesses would be that either surfice elves aren't as sexually active, for a whole host of reasons, or that something in the drows diet makes them more firtle. a number of real world fungi can alter sex drive, so it is possible that something similar is occuring in the underdark, either in the desirability to have children, or the ability to do so. In all likelyhood, it's a combination of both, different mortality rates, believes in security and thus the need to have children, combined with diet probably all play a role.
Oh, BTW, please don't assume a question I make is a challenge, I sometimes have that problem in real life. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Emma Drake
Learned Scribe
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2012 : 18:22:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
Oh, BTW, please don't assume a question I make is a challenge, I sometimes have that problem in real life.
Not at all. Please don't assume that if I throw quotations at you that I'm being petulant. I'm a researcher by day and it's sort of what I do! I love being able to flip through books to find that reference that I just know is in there somewhere. :) |
"I am always here, all about you. You are never truly alone. I flow wherever life flows, wherever winds blow and water runs and the sun and moon chase each other, for there is magic in all things."
- Mystra (Ed Greenwood, Silverfall) |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2012 : 18:25:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Emma Drake
quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
How do we know they are more firtle?
In the 2e Drow of the Underdark, on page 17, it states that a long-lived female drow will birth 10 children in her life (considerably more than surface elves).
In the 3e Drow of the Underdark, on page 24, there is a sidebar that outlines "Pregnancy, Birth, and Childhood" in which it says explicitly, "The drow are notably more fertile than are their surface-dwelling cousins. They become pregnant more easily and have a slightly shorter gestation period."
Sightless does make a good point though. Even with birthing 10 children in their lifetime, that's many years between birthings considering that they live roughly 4 times longer than humans. Considering humans at this time are probably birthing 4-6 children if not more per pairing (bearing in mind, they're not at the top of the foodchain like we are, and the realms is inherently more dangerous than our world), this would imply one of 3 things. Either
1) they are in fact using contraception OR
2) its harder for them to produce children successfully OR
3) they don't have sex as often as humans.
I'm pretty certain its not option 3, and if there is a canon resource like Liriel mentioning family planning, then I guess we have to assume option 1 |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2012 : 22:42:57
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You know, fertility refers to the ability to bare children, the organic stress that having multiple births has on the system, and in population terms, the extent to which a group produces multiple offspring. If we take it from a scientific standpoint, and nothing else, then the Drow will naturally have higher fertility rates then their surfice cousins. Let’s look at this from a natural standpoint, organisms that are often in a constent state of alert often have greater numbers of offspring, both as sexual activity often serves as a destresser, disregarding performance anxiety, (Schwartz and Bard, 2002). The Drow are as a group on a constent state of alert, both from threats from without, a left brain stresser (e.g. Hyder and Vivike, 1999), and threats within their own civilization and often family, serving as a right brain stresser (Lang 2007). Both of these stressers combined serve more to drive most organisms towards mating paterns as a method of sustaining longterm genetic flow (Schwartz, et, al. 2005; Schwartz and Whiteman, 2009). Given this we have one facit of increased sexual activity, and cognitive factors associated towards increased fertility rates. The second factor that comes into play, is perceived child survivability, surfice elves seem, and they’d have plenty of reasons to think so, that their children will live for quite some time. Drow children, ignoring the third male issue, not so likely. Revilries between house, within house, and the many dangers in the underdark can all lead to the death of child. Having more increases the likelihood that a certain number of them will survive to adulthood, and to significant ages afterward. This brings us to an important element of child rearing, an element that impacts the number of children born, parental investment. Organisms with low parental investment often have multiple offspring, natural circumstances might reduce some of the offspring produced, but sufficient numbers ensures that an adiquit of healthy specimens will survive and become productive to the organic group, whatever it’s size (Khan, 2004). In short what has just been described in many ways is the Drow mind set, as shown in such novels as “homeland,” where the weak and uneffective are removed from a group structure, in countless ways and methods. Now, let us turn to a closer look at surfice elves, their society doesn’t hold the ideals of the necessity of raw pure survival to the extreme of the Drow, most elves would expect that through their magic and other abilities, to many to mention here, will lead to the likelihood of children reaching to adulthood. There are not the same levels of combined stressers that the drow have, although left brain stressers might be considerably strong. This single stresser however, often leads to a high degree of parental investment in offspring, which means that parents will have the expectation that multiple birthings are not necessary (Khon and Manderson, 2007). Given these differences in societyial expectations, and actions, we see a plossible explanation of increased fertility among the drow, over surfice elves.
Note, this doesn’t mean that considerable planning isn’t involved on the part of the Drow, and that social structure will not have a gigantic roll to play in all of this. It should also be noted, that even though Elves are a mythical race, there is no reason to assume that their neurological systems do not also follow general hominid forms, with similar cognitive/biochemical/social frameworks being involved (HA! Take that nature VS nurture debate).
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We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2012 : 12:21:36
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I think sociology/psychology doesn´t stand a chance once spells are flung
Of course you can bring up arguments how a human or what life form these scientists researched with, but we speak of non-existant creature in a enviorment of the mind, make believe and not reality. Sure it can be like that but in the end they could be completely different and the studies may have no representation value at all, especially if you can´t reasearch the behaviour of the creatures you wish to give a statement about as a scientist.
Bold hypothesis but i think i found the "black sheep" of the scientific trade and say it doesn´t apply because they are fictionate beings.  |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2012 : 12:32:21
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So, since we have a group of beings that follow human norms, social patterns, to a tea, have political patterns representative, of civilizations in many cases already developed on earth; can love and hate as humans do; have hopes and dreams, fears and irationalities on the same flow and patterns, of every turn as equivilent to humanity... but since magic comes into the equation, and since they come from a fantasy world one cannot see a coralary between human behavior and theres, even though one stands so strongly before us?
Is this said more because one doesn't like science? or doesn't want it pushing into his/her fantasy world?
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We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2012 : 12:43:00
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I think the problem is trying to reason with results gathered from reasearch on actual beings. From a scientific standpoint you can only give off hypothesis but you can never falsify(trial and error) your idea because you got no means to actually research it on drow/elves as they do not exist. I am all for science but bringing them as arguments without the chance of investigating the value of it as it is in this case, i rather would not do it.
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The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2012 : 15:01:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
So, since we have a group of beings that follow human norms, social patterns, to a tea, have political patterns representative, of civilizations in many cases already developed on earth; can love and hate as humans do; have hopes and dreams, fears and irationalities on the same flow and patterns, of every turn as equivilent to humanity... but since magic comes into the equation, and since they come from a fantasy world one cannot see a coralary between human behavior and theres, even though one stands so strongly before us?
Is this said more because one doesn't like science? or doesn't want it pushing into his/her fantasy world?
The issue is that corollaries break down with the continual addition of factors on just one side of the equation. Humans do not, as a whole, live underground for generations, on a diet rich in fungus, make heavy use of magic, live near quasimagic radiation, in a society that is brutally Darwinian, and vie for the favor of a very fickle goddess who offers great and measurable blessings on a whim. |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2012 : 15:24:16
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Very well, given the viable points just stated, argument II:
“The drow are also opposed by Underdark creatures such as
derro, duergar, kuo-toas, mind flayers, and svirfneblin. As a
whole these creatures see drow as a great threat because of
their magic and numbers. Of course, the greatest enemy of a
group of drow is a rival group, and the wars between the drow
houses and cities have shaped the social and economic nature
of the Underdark for thousands of years.”
This is a given assumption, it is clearly stated in Lords of Darkness, soe we cann hold this as A.
What follows then is my previous post that seems to fit within all mammalian groups, whether they be human or not. If someone wants to say Drow aren’t mammals, you are going to have to work very, very, very hard, to push that one.
organisms that are often in a constent state of alert often have greater numbers of offspring, both as sexual activity often serves as a destresser, disregarding performance anxiety, (Schwartz and Bard, 2002). The Drow are as a group on a constent state of alert, both from threats from without, a left brain stresser (e.g. Hyder and Vivike, 1999), and threats within their own civilization and often family, serving as a right brain stresser (Lang 2007). Both of these stressers combined serve more to drive most organisms towards mating paterns as a method of sustaining longterm genetic flow (Schwartz, et, al. 2005; Schwartz and Whiteman, 2009)
Now, holding this we then can form a very viable conclusion, from the two and A, while birth rates would be higher among the drow. This argument still stands, regardless of magic, since not all drow have access to it, this still stands to a group living mainly on Fungi, although it is highly likely that other plants sources exist in their diet, as non-fungi underground eatable plants exist in our world, and this argument still stands regardless of the personality of Lolth. It stands as a valid argument from both ends, from conclusion to essential premise, and essential premise to conclusion. Whether it is a sound argument is still open for debate, it being a valid argument is not. The argument that corollaries break down is not howly true, some corlaries have a one to one ratio and therefore don’t break down. And despite my best attempts I am probably coming off sounding just a tad like an ass with all of this… well hopefully not.
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We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Contraception in the Underdark
