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derd11
Acolyte
1 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Sep 2012 : 12:26:03
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Hello,
once i'd played Baldur's Gate i remember a story about the use of technology in a book. I think it described a tale why the gods limited the realms to a medieval world. Think there was something with gond and Lantan... It's a shame that i cant find the story in any forums or compendias.
Maybe someone knows what i mean and can help me.
Thanks
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2012 : 13:54:56
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| Gond was given refuge in Lantan during the Time of Troubles, therefore he gave them insight in advanced technology which helped the gnomes to be technologicly more advanced than the rest of Faerun. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2012 : 15:54:53
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| The less tech the better! This is a fantasy setting after all. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11713 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2012 : 16:36:16
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I know everyone is worried about guns in FR. Personally, after having seen and used them in campaigns, I don't have a strong feeling against them. I am adverse to the fact that people made this massive leap in gun making technology though to having very reliable matchlock type weapons that rarely misfire, but the fact that a deity gave them the knowledge kind of helps. I much prefer the idea of the realms still using slow match or similar, and I would hope that in the 5th edition they have the realms having suffered a loss of skill in making these firearms and having reverted back to these older technologies.
However, I'm also not adverse to some folks having learned to mix magic and firearms. For instance, a mage that has learned to use a cantrip to spark off his gunpowder, carries several pouches with adamantine, alchemical silver, cold iron, and regular steel bullets.
I wouldn't want to see the realms become a steampunk type campaign world though, and there should be no real precision required in the creation of anything. But making things like aqueducts that run to power waterwheels that might use pulleys to do some basic works shouldn't be out of place. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2012 : 17:12:51
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I prefer next to no firearms in the Realms, myself. I want my fantasy to stay fantasy, and that does not include guns. I simply don't think that they fit into the setting, or into most straight fantasy settings.
That said, I do like them where appropriate -- I'd love to play a gun mage in the Iron Kingdoms, and would in fact go for that before trying a warcaster. I'm actually not a fan of guns, but for some reason, I find the class quite appealing.
(This reason may have something to do with how insanely useful I've found the Arcane Tempest Gun Mages, the Gun Mage Captain Adept, and Black 13th to be. Especially Black 13th!  ) |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 14 Sep 2012 17:13:25 |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
657 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2012 : 17:58:11
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One of my players is a gun magus (PF)
I don't remember that story with Gond from BG, but there's History of the Last March of the Giants
quote:
East of the Great Rift in the Eastern Shaar once stood a land of the titans. This empire rose at the dawn of time in Faerun, and its lords thought to challenge the gods in their arrogance. In punishment, the powers cursed the reigning monarch of the land with fascination and his brethren with devotion. The powers then dropped a star onto the land. The impact of the fallen star created a huge valley later known as the Sea of Fallen Stars. Slowly picking up speed, the gall rolled through the titan nation and onward to the south.
Unable to contain his curiosity, the titan king ran off after the bouncing sphere and his devoted followers dutifully followed his tracks. The meteorite rolled on and on until it reached the Great Sea and vanished into the depths. The monarch dove into the sea, and, lemminglike, the entire titan race dove in after him, never to be seen again. Ashamed at the destruction they had wrought, the powers vowed to keep both curiosity and loyalty firmly in check to avoid such disasters in the future. They have done so to this day, preventing both new ideas from being pursued with any speed and the intelligent races of Toril from ever fully cooperating.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2012 : 02:56:26
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Keep in mind, derd, that certain institutions in the Realms ensure a level of curtailment when it comes to particular technological progress.
The Church of Gond is largely the reason why smoke powder firearms are not widespread in the Realms. See the 'Firearms in the Realms' section of Forgotten Realms Adventures and Gond's entry in Faiths & Pantheons for details about how and where the use of smoke powder weapons have featured in the Realms. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Malcolm
Learned Scribe
242 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2012 : 03:13:18
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I talked to Ed about guns in the Realms (remembering his old DRAGON articles) at GenCon, and he said: not that it's destined to be a classic, but I should watch for Hansel and Gretel Witch Hunters in January, if I wanted to see guns employed alongside swords.
I sought out the trailer, and think I see what he's getting at/forewarning me of.  |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2012 : 05:25:50
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| Well as much as technology goes around in the Realms i dont think it will be as used as say maybe in Eberron, because of the strength of magic in the Realms. Magic especially arcane magic has been the most reliable and destructive force there is in the Realms, smokepowder would not be as terrifying as say elven high magic spells or even come close to the power of Netheril and their floating enclaves. Either way this could be a way for WOTC to start a new edition after 5e when they decide to do so. |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6354 Posts |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2012 : 14:33:56
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Well, we already have a fine merging of technology and magic starting in the realms: steam powered ships (with the steam coming from elementals in a "furnace" of sorts) as well as canon and firearms using magical powder and so on.
I think the "science" of magic will be heavily invested in whatever technology is made in the forgotten realms.
Besides, Magic is a very "Green" source of energy if used properly.  |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Captain Grafalcon
Learned Scribe
Brazil
129 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2012 : 15:46:48
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| In determined events in Faerun, the massive use of technology could have changed history: in the time of troubles, when magic has gone awry, or the spellplague. In ToT, when Mystra denied Cyric acess to the Weave, he asked Gondīs help to create an advanced set of armor to some of his followers. If they were imbued with magic I donīt know,but they were "advanced". |
"Surely you recognize that armies carrying banners are almost always thievesuntil they win."
Jarlaxle, mercenary leader of Bregan D'aerthe. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2012 : 17:52:00
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As for me, I accept the existence of guns, but I don't focus on it. If a player wanted to get one (because they are canon) then I would allow it, but I would alos apply all the penalties (like the loud, monster-attracting noise, Horses-rearing and animals stampeding, the need to keep stuff dry, hard-to-find smokepowder, etc). I wouldn't be purposely against it, but I would make it as realistic as possible; early firearms were a pain to use (sometimes literally).
I just play it in my Realms the way it is handled in WoW - they are around, but they are no big deal (and used mostly by dwarves, who are the only ones who make them). There also other examples renaissance-era tech.
quote:
Originally posted by Entreri3478
The less tech the better! This is a fantasy setting after all.
Not everyone's definition of fantasy is the same.
For instance, Star Wars is a fantasy story (rescue the princess, defeat the 'dark wizard', etc) set in a Scify milieu. The futuristic elements are just backdrop. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Sep 2012 18:27:50 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11713 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2012 : 01:25:47
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| Another thing, people are always worried about smokepowder, yet they don't really get the major drawbacks like.... you're hit with a fireball or even a lowly burning hands and have loaded guns on you? The guns probably fire. I hope it wasn't a pistol stuffed in your belt sash. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2012 : 16:22:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As for me, I accept the existence of guns, but I don't focus on it. If a player wanted to get one (because they are canon) then I would allow it, but I would alos apply all the penalties (like the loud, monster-attracting noise, Horses-rearing and animals stampeding, the need to keep stuff dry, hard-to-find smokepowder, etc). I wouldn't be purposely against it, but I would make it as realistic as possible; early firearms were a pain to use (sometimes literally).
I just play it in my Realms the way it is handled in WoW - they are around, but they are no big deal (and used mostly by dwarves, who are the only ones who make them). There also other examples renaissance-era tech.
quote:
Originally posted by Entreri3478
The less tech the better! This is a fantasy setting after all.
Not everyone's definition of fantasy is the same.
For instance, Star Wars is a fantasy story (rescue the princess, defeat the 'dark wizard', etc) set in a Scify milieu. The futuristic elements are just backdrop.
I don't define the setting by whatever theme/plot is presented. Everything is pure fiction in the end.
The ENORMOUS amount of tech in Star Wars makes it a science fiction setting for me.
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Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2012 : 18:53:28
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I use something much like guns in a fantasy series in writing right now. Not realms, but it's definitely still a fantasy world.
I think of Final Fantasy and such as still being fantasy, despite guns. It just depends on taste. The realms is largely "classic" fantasy, which is to say sword and sorcery style.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2012 : 06:11:04
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Depends on the setting, really. Perhaps I'm just so used to the Realms without guns that I'd rather not have advanced technology get in the mix. The hodgepodge of magic and science works in other settings, yes, but I prefer the Realms as it is now---awash with magic, instead of driven by tech. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2012 : 08:44:26
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Given the amount of combustion in a fireball, area covered and so forth, the powder would probably burn off far to quickly for to explode. We see numerious cases were something like this happened (see Zhin Lu, "the ancient use of gunpowder, a case approach").
I can also see where certain devine powers would want to keep a certain level of status quo in the science/magic department. If people see science as affective, or for some reason, more affective than magic, people might turn away from magic use in order to carry on science. This is unlikely for the most part, but not altogether impossible, given the nature of the setting. One coul d even use it as an explanation for why Earth once had magic and now it doesn't, if one is in to that sort of thing. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2012 : 12:07:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As for me, I accept the existence of guns, but I don't focus on it. If a player wanted to get one (because they are canon) then I would allow it,
(...)
I'd say they are "cannon". 
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I just play it in my Realms the way it is handled in WoW - they are around, but they are no big deal (and used mostly by dwarves, who are the only ones who make them).
(...)
Speaking seriously, now, maybe dwarves or other less-magical races would work harder to develop a non-magical source of firepower. However, dwarves have priestly powers, and it also gives them some magic, even if it's not arcane. Maybe it could be developed by a race without arcane and divine magic, and without psionic powers... But it would be very rare, and the race would have to prevail in a world full of supernatural powers. Besides, the smoke powder being magical, as it is in canon Realms, also limits the use of guns (and I'm prety sure it can be made with divine magic, that's why the church of Gond - and possibly dwarves - can manufacture it). |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2012 : 13:09:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I use something much like guns in a fantasy series in writing right now. Not realms, but it's definitely still a fantasy world.
I think of Final Fantasy and such as still being fantasy, despite guns. It just depends on taste. The realms is largely "classic" fantasy, which is to say sword and sorcery style.
True, what technology is available doesn't define if something is fantasy or not. Markus brought up a very good example with Star Wars for this which despite all its starships and so on is still a fantasy story (A long time ago in a far galaxy...).
A common definition for this is that when a story describes something which could possibly happen to our real world when some factors are met its science fiction (Star Trek or Stargate for example) otherwise its fantasy (Star Wars or Warhammer 40k).
So the realms beeing a fantasy setting shouldn't stop anyone from using guns or other more andvanced technology than the common one around. But this doesn't mean that you have to use it or even like it.
I wouldn't be very happy about it neither when there suddenly was a rise in technology in the realms. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2012 : 19:01:47
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I resisted making that joke several times already Barastir - thanks for "going there". 
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
Speaking seriously, now, maybe dwarves or other less-magical races would work harder to develop a non-magical source of firepower. However, dwarves have priestly powers, and it also gives them some magic, even if it's not arcane. Maybe it could be developed by a race without arcane and divine magic, and without psionic powers... But it would be very rare, and the race would have to prevail in a world full of supernatural powers. Besides, the smoke powder being magical, as it is in canon Realms, also limits the use of guns (and I'm prety sure it can be made with divine magic, that's why the church of Gond - and possibly dwarves - can manufacture it).
Good point about magically-limited races wanting to develop tech.
Your mentioning of Dwarven priests makes me realize what a great fit it is - the dwarves should be able to do the same magic Gond's priest do to create smokepowder (they probably just don't advertise this fact). They developed hand-grenades, and even caused a massive gas-explosion - using 'pipes' - that far-outstripped almost anything magic could do. And Ed has said that dwarves have 'limited' railways for their mining operations (which is how RW railroads started), and they also build rather elaborate pumps for water and fresh air, some of which extending hundreds of miles!
I'd say the dwarves have a lot more tech then they let on. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Sep 2012 19:05:25 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2391 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2012 : 01:42:53
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quote:
Originally posted by derd11
once i'd played Baldur's Gate i remember a story about the use of technology in a book.
BTW, does Baldur's Gate have temples of Tyr without a single hammer or balances in them, and suchlike, like NWN?
quote:
Originally posted by derd11
Maybe someone knows what i mean and can help me.
I don't know what you mean. Under "medieval", for one.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
However, I'm also not adverse to some folks having learned to mix magic and firearms. For instance, a mage that has learned to use a cantrip to spark off his gunpowder, carries several pouches with adamantine, alchemical silver, cold iron, and regular steel bullets.
Once you start enchantin' it, why keep the bottleneck - a capricious expensive propellant? Of course, there's already old good netherpelter.
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
Speaking seriously, now, maybe dwarves or other less-magical races would work harder to develop a non-magical source of firepower. However, dwarves have priestly powers, and it also gives them some magic, even if it's not arcane.
Oh, like producing Glowstones? And later using Glowglory spell to squeeze rays of blazing disintegration out of them? |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2012 : 11:49:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
(...), and they also build rather elaborate pumps for water and fresh air, some of which extending hundreds of miles!(...)
You can see a good example of this in the old (1e, IIRC) Under Illefarn adventure. Of course, in RW the Romans had a very well developed water plumbing system, and with a huge extension, back in Classical Antiquity. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2012 : 03:20:27
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The Realms aren't.
Plate armour, steel crossbows, open-ocean navigation, full-rigged sailing ships, rapiers, two-handed swords and dozens of other things that are common in the Forgotten Realms are in our world associated with the Renaissaince/Early Modern period and either don't exist or aren't available except as extremely rare curiosities during medieval times.
Add to that a strong class of merchant middle-class, thriving international trade, oodles of disposable income among other than the top 1% of land-owners and many other features and you'll note that the Forgotten Realms are very far from anything you could call medieval. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2012 : 05:56:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
(...), and they also build rather elaborate pumps for water and fresh air, some of which extending hundreds of miles!(...)
You can see a good example of this in the old (1e, IIRC) Under Illefarn adventure. Of course, in RW the Romans had a very well developed water plumbing system, and with a huge extension, back in Classical Antiquity.
The Romans were Johnny-come-latelys, the Indus-culture had a fairly well-developed sewer-system in Mohenjo-Daro. |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2012 : 11:36:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
The Romans were Johnny-come-latelys, the Indus-culture had a fairly well-developed sewer-system in Mohenjo-Daro.
I know it, but I think the Romans made it bigger, no? |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2012 : 19:40:33
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The powers that be don't want there to be guns. It would change what Tempus wants war to be. Look at the destruction advanced weapons have caused in the real world. Gods know that and block it from arising in the realms. A Greater God can destroy any mortal at will unless another protects them.
"Do you know what would be great? Balls of metal shot with explosive powd..." -poof- the person becomes dust. |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2012 : 04:15:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Good point about magically-limited races wanting to develop tech.
Your mentioning of Dwarven priests makes me realize what a great fit it is - the dwarves should be able to do the same magic Gond's priest do to create smokepowder (they probably just don't advertise this fact). They developed hand-grenades, and even caused a massive gas-explosion - using 'pipes' - that far-outstripped almost anything magic could do. And Ed has said that dwarves have 'limited' railways for their mining operations (which is how RW railroads started), and they also build rather elaborate pumps for water and fresh air, some of which extending hundreds of miles!
I'd say the dwarves have a lot more tech then they let on.
Let's not forget the dwarves actually have a deity that oversees such developments: Dugmaren Brightmantle |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2012 : 17:20:02
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| If you had proper guns and trains in the realms in would greatly weaken the position of wizards and the importance of magic in general. I feel that it would change the character of the Realms and not for the better. |
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Captain Grafalcon
Learned Scribe
Brazil
129 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2012 : 22:41:25
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| I donīt support the idea of introducing weapons/guns into the Realms, and doubt that is ever going to happen. However,there are some populations that donīt use magic at the same proportion faerunian do. I donīt know much about Kara-Tur culture, but in the Empires trilogy, we see an army of Shou Lung using a small quantity of bombs and "rockets" to defeat Tuigan raiders. There is little use of magic (maybe the writerīs choice to tell the tale?), but some cultures needs to find different methods to endure. |
"Surely you recognize that armies carrying banners are almost always thievesuntil they win."
Jarlaxle, mercenary leader of Bregan D'aerthe. |
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Light
Learned Scribe
Australia
231 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2012 : 07:12:34
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I don't think Fantasy settings should ever be just limited to a Medieval timeline. I have a particular growing fondness for settings set in the early days of the gunpowder age. Guns can lead to many interesting encounters and situations that have to resolved in different ways than should said situation involve a sword instead. I find that early guns make these unique situations even better since they are unreliable, slow to reload, inaccurate and can even misfire or backfire. Of course, for a tabletop game I would have to say that it would be much more efficient, in my opinion at least, to run a medieval setting; let the slightly more advanced-timeline settings exist in books or movies.
As for the Realms? Absolutely not. |
"A true warrior needs no sword" - Thors (Vinland Saga) |
Edited by - Light on 05 Oct 2012 07:15:37 |
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Why are the realms limited to medieval?
