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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Sep 2012 : 19:39:39
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http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Nathlan
Oh, and don't take my comments on the Earthlike stuff in 2E FR as a slam. Designers did a great job on a lot of material, and I enjoyed the Empires and Maztica trilogies (to date the only FR series I have read in full).
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11716 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2012 : 21:43:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Doge
I just find it a lame reason that smokepowder is controlled because some rulers feared it. They're far from being the nuclear weapons of their age. That's what magic is. As for falling in the hands of commoners, don't they fear the crossbow? The crossbow is the nearest weapon to these guns in damage and range, even reload time, and they're simple weapons too, not exotic like firearms, meaning anyone with half a brain can be a competent marksman with a bit of training. Firearms really aren't that strong. They're just different. I'd pick firearms over crossbows or bows and go through all that trouble not because it makes me more powerful but because it makes me different. Facing a group of archers is a common occurance while seeing a troop of musketeers with their new loud, smoky weapons is something that inspires awe and dread thought not actually being more effective than the archers. Cannons they should fear, but it can't be mass produced the way small arms can be. More like royal gifts from nobles. In this way it regulates itself. There's no certainty that people will adopt new technology over the ones already tested and proven by time. There's a lot of good inventions that people just didn't bother with and these ideas died a natural death. Firearms aren't for everyone and not everyone can afford it's continued use. So why did they even bother coming up with cheap excuses to stop the spread of technology? If people like it, then they use it, if they don't, well it'll just be another novelty. I just don't like lame excuses stopping you from procuring something you want.
Yeah, I see smokepowder in guns as being less favored for other reasons... someone hits you with a burning hands and there's a possibility all your preloaded weapons go off and shoot you... right in the nuts where you've got that pistol stuck. I seriously don't get all the fear of them in a magical world. I can see where some folks would be interested, but they'd be few. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11716 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2012 : 21:46:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Aw, C'mon... who doesn't want to be This Guy? 
Ummmm, me... have you seen how long that beard is? The sheer volume of food that must be buried in that thing.... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2012 : 23:50:16
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LOL - he's a hunter; storing food in his beard is a survival technique.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2012 : 04:43:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
One question: Whats Nathlan? 
Long story short, bunch of Shou immigrants moved into Cormyr (or near it, forgot), have their own town, and it's almost entirely Shou in culture. Basically, it was the designers way of bringing the Far East even deeper into Faerun without ever touching on what's been going on in Kara-Tur the entire time.
A Shoutown in the Heartlands, basically. |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2012 : 10:11:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Doge
I wonder why Gond's clergy is so strict with gun control yet their dogma teaches to spread knowledge and innovation of new creations so that all may see the greatness of the Wonderbringer. Maybe it's the will of the clegry and not Gond himself?
EDIT-just read faiths and pantheons. Probably the only reason the Church of Gond controls the spread and knowledge of smokepowder and it's derivatives is because of the ire it caused to certain rulers fearful of it's power. So they decided to appease the rulers and to control it's spread going so far as sabotage and bringing financial ruin to those who spread it without the Church's consent. They fear threats from these mortals more than the will of their god? This goes against Gond's dogma which encourages you to be curious and tinker with things and to encourage others to do the same and spread your knowledge to all so that all may feel the Wonderbringer's greatness. As far as I can see this is the Church's laws not Gond's.
I seem to recall that several 'Gond-inspired' technologies were described in Dragon (or some other source) as being direct rip-offs of Earth technology. This went so far as describing Elminster looking down on a Faerunian seaport, where the Gondmen had introduced the 'miracle' of the seaport crane (it is interesting to imagine how a medieval seaport crane would look like), and darkly muttering that he knew exactly where they had received their 'divine inspiration'.
With that in mind, guns are not all that big a stretch. In my Realms games, I pretty much assume that Earth-tech isn't going to 'survive' a trip between the worlds - that IPad or AK-47 are going to be big, pretty paperweights, things that the (to borrow a term from the Torg game) technological axiom aren't going to allow.
Of course, there's nothing stopping an enterprising Gondsman (or player character) from bringing back a copy of The Way Things Work, experimenting with the theories and finding out which ones don't work in the Realms, discarding them, and then publishing the remainder for their fellows in their latest religious tract, The Revelations of the Wonderbringer (or whatever).
It was stated (pre-4th Edition) that Faerunians don't know why boiled water and sterilized instruments make medicinal chirurgy so much more successful - they only know that it does - so they do it. But it is not a stretch to think that there's more than one Faerunian 'in the know' (Elminster, etc) about why it works - if you have the man sitting in Ed Greenwood's living room scarfing lasagna with Dalamar and Mordenkainen (all canon, by the way), then it's not impossible for another Realms denizen to gain a working knowledge of English (and Earth customs) and go for a trip to the New York Public Library, where they can bring back all sorts of technological secrets, even if the world tech limits of the Realms don't allow all of them to function.
- OMH |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2391 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2012 : 01:30:27
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quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
Some people in Kara Tur have been making smoke powder for 'hundreds of years' according to FRA.
There really is no secret of smoke-powder, no matter what some priests in Lantan think.
Once somebody uses one of the printing presses to publish the formula, and copies are made...
What "formula"? Most of those who got resources to produce large quantities also have resources to get basic knowledge if they want this. It's a component for fireworks, not really such a Big Deal like one of high-end magic poisons, elixirs or something - and even these leak.
The only "secrets" are specific techniques, and the main problem is likely to be refining/quality part. Of course, Toril got loads of fairly good alchemists - aside of Kara Tur and Gondsmen, there are Zakhara, gnomes and drow. So it's only a question of "how much do you really want to bother and mess with expensive and sensitive explosives?" and most don't.
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
By the 1370s, it was probably too late for some Luddite nutcases like Khelbun or greedy jerks in Lantan to stop the diffusion of the technology.
To be fair, Khelben have a reason to be jumpy in at least some regards - he knows Waterdeep is one big powder keg s it is.
Also, there's a lot of interesting toys, but exotic "cool stuff" in itself doesn't make "technology". The same with elven prosthetics, or drow pneumatic dart-guns - it's all made rather regularly, but still in case-by-case way.
quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
I love the idea of the world on the verge of change, and I think it fits the history of Faerūn well.
The world "on the verge of change" and "right after a change" is simply more "realistic" (sorry), isn't it? It's a far cry from Netheril, etc.  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 18 Sep 2012 01:31:27 |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2012 : 02:58:24
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
I love the idea of the world on the verge of change, and I think it fits the history of Faerūn well.
The world "on the verge of change" and "right after a change" is simply more "realistic" (sorry), isn't it? It's a far cry from Netheril, etc.
True. The world always seems to be changing, so that feeling resonates well.
I wonder how for ancient empires like Netheril, it seems life was pretty much the same for a millenium or more. Though that may be just because of our limited knowledge about those huge periods of time, it always seemed to me like human civilization in the Realms was actually experiencing accelerated growth, much like early modern Earth. Curiously, even though the ancients had global (and even interplanetary and interplanar) reach, they must have always hit some kind of barrier (practical or otherwise) that didn't allow them to spread all that much. Either that or they were annihilated by a catastrophe before they could do that. Figures it would happen again.  |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2012 : 06:33:56
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Tbeholder, 'formula' is the correct word.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/formula
Definition number two. It's a recipe, dude.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2012 : 07:06:42
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yeah, I see smokepowder in guns as being less favored for other reasons... someone hits you with a burning hands and there's a possibility all your preloaded weapons go off and shoot you... right in the nuts where you've got that pistol stuck. I seriously don't get all the fear of them in a magical world. I can see where some folks would be interested, but they'd be few.
I agree that a little fire magic goes a long way.
Another possibility to consider is a cantrip that produced a very small shower could dampen powder.
A good soaking, probably maybe more than a cantrip could manage, is bad for bowstrings.
Archers in the past tried to keep their strings dry before action.
A first level spell might well be able to harm bowstrings.
The effects of magic on weapons, warfare, and related technologies are naturally going to depend on the rules in play (edition) and the frequency of spellcasters.
I'll stick to first or second level spells for this, given that higher level stuff is compartively rare.
Warp wood is only a 2nd level spell for druids in 3E. A warped bow is pretty much junk.
So, do fighters usually avoid metal armor because of shocking grasp?
Leave their warhorses at home because of cause fear?
Tie melee weapons to their wrists, despite the potential risk of injury, to avoid the worst of grease provoked fumbles?
Nobody fights in close order out of fear of area affect spells?
Protection from normal missiles/protection from arrows has led to the decline of archery on the battlefield?
If magic is really so dirt-common that gunpowder is routinely dealt with via burning hands (which has a much shorter range than a cannon, BTW), then I expect a lot of technology, tactics, and social organization would look quite different than it does in FR.
That won't stop a smart mage from using such magic against opponents equipped with firearms.
Then again, maybe the 'wimpy' wizard wants a brace of pistols for himself...
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 18 Sep 2012 07:14:45 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11716 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2012 : 14:24:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
I love the idea of the world on the verge of change, and I think it fits the history of Faerūn well.
The world "on the verge of change" and "right after a change" is simply more "realistic" (sorry), isn't it? It's a far cry from Netheril, etc.
True. The world always seems to be changing, so that feeling resonates well.
I wonder how for ancient empires like Netheril, it seems life was pretty much the same for a millenium or more. Though that may be just because of our limited knowledge about those huge periods of time, it always seemed to me like human civilization in the Realms was actually experiencing accelerated growth, much like early modern Earth. Curiously, even though the ancients had global (and even interplanetary and interplanar) reach, they must have always hit some kind of barrier (practical or otherwise) that didn't allow them to spread all that much. Either that or they were annihilated by a catastrophe before they could do that. Figures it would happen again.
Heck no, Netheril was constantly changing. They didn't have all their spells at once. Every new spell discovered was a new abuse to which spells could be put. Wow... someone just invented something called "teleportation". Wow... someone just invented a spell that lets you be invisible EVEN WHILE FIGHTING. Wow... someone just invented a spell that lets you travel to a bordering plane of ours known as the ethereal... and with it you can walk through walls. Wow... someone just invented a spell that allows you to see what's happening hundreds of miles away on top of some water. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11716 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2012 : 14:35:51
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quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yeah, I see smokepowder in guns as being less favored for other reasons... someone hits you with a burning hands and there's a possibility all your preloaded weapons go off and shoot you... right in the nuts where you've got that pistol stuck. I seriously don't get all the fear of them in a magical world. I can see where some folks would be interested, but they'd be few.
I agree that a little fire magic goes a long way.
Another possibility to consider is a cantrip that produced a very small shower could dampen powder.
A good soaking, probably maybe more than a cantrip could manage, is bad for bowstrings.
Archers in the past tried to keep their strings dry before action.
A first level spell might well be able to harm bowstrings.
The effects of magic on weapons, warfare, and related technologies are naturally going to depend on the rules in play (edition) and the frequency of spellcasters.
I'll stick to first or second level spells for this, given that higher level stuff is compartively rare.
Warp wood is only a 2nd level spell for druids in 3E. A warped bow is pretty much junk.
So, do fighters usually avoid metal armor because of shocking grasp?
Leave their warhorses at home because of cause fear?
Tie melee weapons to their wrists, despite the potential risk of injury, to avoid the worst of grease provoked fumbles?
Nobody fights in close order out of fear of area affect spells?
Protection from normal missiles/protection from arrows has led to the decline of archery on the battlefield?
If magic is really so dirt-common that gunpowder is routinely dealt with via burning hands (which has a much shorter range than a cannon, BTW), then I expect a lot of technology, tactics, and social organization would look quite different than it does in FR.
That won't stop a smart mage from using such magic against opponents equipped with firearms.
Then again, maybe the 'wimpy' wizard wants a brace of pistols for himself...
You aren't getting my point. The objective of the fire spell isn't to set off the gun. The objective of the fire spell is to kill you, and it just happens to also affect the weapon's ammunition (because the powder is SO volatile, not because the fire is so hot). These examples you give would be if someone were to specifically be targeting the weapon in an attempt to disarm the individual. The fact that this would happen rarely wouldn't make a difference so much, because rarely do you find someone's bow string being popped and someone losing an eye from it, etc.... it only take a few people complaining about a bad experience with a product for others to shy away from it.
That all being said, I'm not adverse to smokepowder in the realms. If you do any research on my character from stories I've posted to the web (granted they're probably 15 years old now), you'll find that Sleyvas of Thay was wielding guns (in addition to paired swords). However, I'm pointing out the faults that would likely make them not as favorable in this world as they would be in ours. Magic would downplay their effectiveness and stunt their growth as a technology. Doesn't mean they still wouldn't happen... doesn't mean cannons wouldn't also be developed... etc... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2391 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2012 : 16:38:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
I wonder how for ancient empires like Netheril, it seems life was pretty much the same for a millenium or more. Though that may be just because of our limited knowledge about those huge periods of time, it always seemed to me like human civilization in the Realms was actually experiencing accelerated growth, much like early modern Earth.
Right, it's an aberration of distance. So when you get the chronology from "Netheril - Empire of Magic", something happens all the time, with about as many or as few "groundbreaking" changes as happens on later Faerun between major perturbations (Dawn Cataclysm, Time of Troubles, etc).
Which is indeed the same as on our Earth: noteworthy things happened mostly in Europe and modern time - if we ask modern Europeans.
quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
Either that or they were annihilated by a catastrophe before they could do that.
Yup. Just like...
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
I agree that a little fire magic goes a long way.
Another possibility to consider is a cantrip that produced a very small shower could dampen powder.
A good soaking, probably maybe more than a cantrip could manage, is bad for bowstrings.
Archers in the past tried to keep their strings dry before action.
A first level spell might well be able to harm bowstrings.
True. But the powder is both more sensitive and harder to protect. It suffers not only from fire and water, but from sparks and dampness. It's possible to apply protection from fire to siege machines (and even protect their torsions, if any, from anomalies of humidity). But with cannons, ammunition needs to be protected... and then un-protected before use - because you can't shoot with fireproof powder.
In the long run more expensive expendables are already bad. Let's add some extra on top of already given problems with costs and logistics?
Now, a trebuchet can hurl downrange the whole piano. Also, unlike cannons, it won't take out its crew and everything around - at least, without really gross incompetence on their part. And there's still some room for range enchantments. Which research avenue looks like a more attractive investment?
With personal weapons - bows also beat primitive firearms in rate of fire. Add this, too.
Small arms were developed while cannons were around - which means tons of powder get hauled to the battlefield anyway, no extra problems with logistics. But transporting whole kegs of more expensive and just as sensitive powder merely for weapons not much better than a common crossbow? Seriously?
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
So, do fighters usually avoid metal armor because of shocking grasp?
Meh. It's touch-range, and no different from any other attack even then. Also, usually outside of lurid pictures by maestro Vallejo and their imitations, people don't wear metal armor without anything under it. 
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
Leave their warhorses at home because of cause fear?
Leave non-warhorses at home or in the train, because they tend to go nuts at the sight of fire (even non-magical). Or grinning lizardmen (as in Elfshadow ). Or sound of metal clanging too close. Or just about anything else that could conceivably startle some animal larger than a gnat. Which is the main reason why the cost of training those warhorses is considered reasonable, of course.
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
Tie melee weapons to their wrists, despite the potential risk of injury, to avoid the worst of grease provoked fumbles?
This thing is called "tassel". It turns out that sweat- blood- and rain- provoked fumbles are quite enough of a problem to do this and try a variety of high-friction materials to wrap the grip. So my answer is: "highly superfluous".
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
Nobody fights in close order out of fear of area affect spells?
Depends. When area attacks are common, dense columns die out one way or another, yeah. But magic lessens this effect, because spells of defence also have limited area, sticking out of which can be unhealthy.
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
Protection from normal missiles/protection from arrows has led to the decline of archery on the battlefield?
Depends on the target, in that usually a whole unit can't afford this. Also, at worst it wastes a single attack. As compared to stopping the shooter permanently with bonus casualties all around.
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
If magic is really so dirt-common that gunpowder is routinely dealt with via burning hands (which has a much shorter range than a cannon, BTW), then I expect a lot of technology, tactics, and social organization would look quite different than it does in FR.
Exactly how? As to military organization and tactics, see also "Return of the Archwizards". |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2012 : 17:38:18
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There are a couple of points that haven't been brought up that I think should be.
One, the smokepowder will only ignite under a specific condition. Whether through DM's fiat or the application of the world's magical or technological axioms. So let's say that wizard is walking around with a half-dozen starwheels on his belt, and a powder horn over his shoulder, and gets hit with a fireball (which he manages to otherwise survive) - yet the fire does not set off the powder. Why?
As stated, the DM can merely say "that's what I've decided". Simple enough. Nothing more need be said, we all know exactly what that means.
Or, the axioms of the Realms may state that 'the magical properties that are inherent in smokepowder act as a neutralizing force when applied against the inherently magical elements found in fire-based magic effects'. In other words, magic spells (and maybe red dragon breath) will not trigger an explosion, but if someone tosses the wizard into a bonfire, or smacks him with a torch, flaming catapult projectile, etcetera, then he has a problem. The exact same problems that a real-world musketeer or buccaneer would have had.
I would favor the second as an explanation, because not only is it not 'because I said so' (something my parents used constantly, and still annoys me even as I push a half-century), but because it says you cannot absolutely insist on the application of real-world physics when you are employing high fantasy tropes to explain those effects.
This is not the Old Man trying to be contrary for its own sake - some people may genuinely see muskets and smokepowder guns as only adding to the setting as a whole, and don't want that warrior to be constantly rolling to see if her smokepowder ignites every time the wizard's drakeling familiar burps.
I am of the opinion that this was the tack taken in Red Steel, that had fine-precision wheellock guns ('Smithy and Westron') and used more standard gunpowder - the world axiom (effectively) said that magical fire was not really an issue when interacting with powder, because that would have taken away from one of the setting's hallmark 'schticks'.
- OMH |
Edited by - Old Man Harpell on 19 Sep 2012 17:39:02 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2012 : 18:24:01
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Wait -- are you saying only certain types of fire would set off smoke powder?  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2012 : 19:32:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Wait -- are you saying only certain types of fire would set off smoke powder?
Not as such, no. Magical fire has most of the same properties as 'normal' fire (obviously). What differs is the 'magical element', one encountering the other to produce, effectively, a reaction-neutral state. Granted, on the other hand, the smokepowder that is hit with magical fire could also serve as a magnifying agent, causing an near-holocaustic explosion that levels everything for twenty square miles in all directions (effectively incinerating the gunslinger, the wizard, and anyone else in the vicinity)
Yeah, this is all stuff pulled out of...the aether, but that explains about half the processes that go into any game company's explanation of 'magical physics'.
- OMH |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2012 : 20:07:24
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Actually, if you combined this with my earlier theory that smokepowder either has a magic-dampening dweomer on it (bypassing Ao's decree), OR has a 'secret ingredient' (like dead-magic powder) that is anti-magical in nature, then it makes perfect sense that magical fire does not effect it. Basically, the gunpowder itself becomes a tiny, little 'Dead-Magic Zone'.
I think I'd allow Dragonfire to effect it - that makes sense (otherwise dragons could not breath fire on low-magic worlds, like Earth). Besides, how often is a smokepowder-weapon user going to be running into red dragons? I don't think that doubly-unique situation would warrant an official ruling like that - it just isn't going to come up often enough (and if it does, it should be left up to the DM, since a Red Dragon would not be a random encounter). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Sep 2012 20:10:57 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2012 : 20:47:24
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I'd not go that far. Going out of your way to protect something, rather than letting it stand on it's own merits, strikes me as heavy-handed and biased. And making something immune to magical fire, but leaving it vulnerable to regular fire, is rather questionable.
It'd be like making glass that couldn't be smashed with a magical hammer, but that could be smashed with a regular hammer. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11716 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2012 : 22:15:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
There are a couple of points that haven't been brought up that I think should be.
One, the smokepowder will only ignite under a specific condition. Whether through DM's fiat or the application of the world's magical or technological axioms. So let's say that wizard is walking around with a half-dozen starwheels on his belt, and a powder horn over his shoulder, and gets hit with a fireball (which he manages to otherwise survive) - yet the fire does not set off the powder. Why?
As stated, the DM can merely say "that's what I've decided". Simple enough. Nothing more need be said, we all know exactly what that means.
Or, the axioms of the Realms may state that 'the magical properties that are inherent in smokepowder act as a neutralizing force when applied against the inherently magical elements found in fire-based magic effects'. In other words, magic spells (and maybe red dragon breath) will not trigger an explosion, but if someone tosses the wizard into a bonfire, or smacks him with a torch, flaming catapult projectile, etcetera, then he has a problem. The exact same problems that a real-world musketeer or buccaneer would have had.
I would favor the second as an explanation, because not only is it not 'because I said so' (something my parents used constantly, and still annoys me even as I push a half-century), but because it says you cannot absolutely insist on the application of real-world physics when you are employing high fantasy tropes to explain those effects.
This is not the Old Man trying to be contrary for its own sake - some people may genuinely see muskets and smokepowder guns as only adding to the setting as a whole, and don't want that warrior to be constantly rolling to see if her smokepowder ignites every time the wizard's drakeling familiar burps.
I am of the opinion that this was the tack taken in Red Steel, that had fine-precision wheellock guns ('Smithy and Westron') and used more standard gunpowder - the world axiom (effectively) said that magical fire was not really an issue when interacting with powder, because that would have taken away from one of the setting's hallmark 'schticks'.
- OMH
If they wanted to write it up that way (and they'd have to definitely quantify what is the nature of smokepowder... i.e. its not gunpowder for definite, and apparently it has either some kind of fire & electricity resistance OR is effectively magic-dead), then yeah, I could definitely see this as more viable. This would make it less dangerous, but they'd need to work on the reasons why it would be favored over say the faster longbow. That though could get into logistics issues (you can crank out a lot more bullets faster than you can make arrows, and requiring less resources to transport the bullets). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2012 : 22:29:10
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A bit of self-correction:
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I never read that Maztica series, but didn't the Iron Legion use longarms?
Doing research for something completely unrelated, I realized the Iron Legion was a completely different group (from the infamous Swords of the Iron Legion module).
IIRC, it was the Golden Legion that used muskets (since they were based on Cortez's troops). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Sep 2012 22:29:44 |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2012 : 00:42:41
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Originally posted by Markus
"Just an idea, of course. I created a dwarven version of the Eldreth Veluuthra (but not as xenophobic)."
Care to elaborate on this, MT?
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Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2391 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2012 : 03:54:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
Or, the axioms of the Realms may state that 'the magical properties that are inherent in smokepowder act as a neutralizing force when applied against the inherently magical elements found in fire-based magic effects'. In other words, magic spells (and maybe red dragon breath) will not trigger an explosion, but if someone tosses the wizard into a bonfire, or smacks him with a torch, flaming catapult projectile, etcetera, then he has a problem. The exact same problems that a real-world musketeer or buccaneer would have had.
While less contrived, this doesn't match existing lore on the matter.
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
I am of the opinion that this was the tack taken in Red Steel, that had fine-precision wheellock guns ('Smithy and Westron') and used more standard gunpowder - the world axiom (effectively) said that magical fire was not really an issue when interacting with powder, because that would have taken away from one of the setting's hallmark 'schticks'.
Where does it say so?
As to "more standard" - Savage Baronines' smokepowder is made by carefully melting together vermeil and steel seed, products of that curse (which explains its interaction with cinnabryl)... and Vermeil got inherent magical aura, among other things. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2012 : 04:23:07
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I remember using a lot of Red Steel as the basis for my 'Old West meets FR' campaign (set in Achorome'), but I really can't recall the details of how that setting handled the weapons. Sadly, the campaign only ran a few sessions (I used that actual Savage Baronies map for the Anchorme coast).
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
to elaborate on this, MT?
What I meant was, I had just created a dwarven version of the Eldreth Veluthra there in that post, not anything I had previously in my game. It is something I have been thinking about for my Homebrew setting though.
In My Setting:
The dwarves have some steampunk-esque tech, similar to what we see in WoW. At least one group does - the rest of the dwarves consider them an aberration (D&D's Duergar or WoW's Dark Iron Dwarves). They have become part of 'The Empire', which is similar in many respects to The Empire in Warhammer, and they control all the tech (like who gets it, and how its used).
So basically I took my own HB dwarven sub-group and applied the lore to a possible FR group - maybe call it the Diverga Sactimonium ("Dwarven Purity"}, or some such. If a human (or anyone else) builds reliable tech (like gunnes, or a steam engine, etc), the inventor dies under mysterious circumstances - usually a fire, where all their research just happens to burn along with them. This group would believe other races are too uncivilized to possess such knowledge. For reference, I've also quoted the original post.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
What if dwarves have this tech, and have had it for thousands of years, and aware of its dangers? Perhaps they have seen what 'horrors humans wrought' in ages past, and have their own, covert group that finds these gun-makers and sabotages or even kills them?
The problem is, the eastern dwarves (korobokuru) 'lost their way' long ago, and no longer behave like true dwarves, which includes impeding humans in their desires to become technologically superior. This is why it is starting to get out of hand in Kara-Tur.
We have seen countless examples of mortals finding 'work-arounds' for the various rules of the universe (like the Godwall, or spelljamming), so its just a matter of time (every few centuries) where they find ways around Realmspace's physics. This is where the dwarves come in - they make sure humans don't get 'too advanced'.
Just an idea, of course. I created a dwarven version of the Eldreth Veluuthra (but not as xenophobic).
EDIT: Years ago I head an excellent book entitled Kingdom of the Dwarves, which also featured dwarves with some early steampunk-like tech, and I always pictured my dwarves that way. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Sep 2012 04:32:25 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11716 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2012 : 15:22:03
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
Or, the axioms of the Realms may state that 'the magical properties that are inherent in smokepowder act as a neutralizing force when applied against the inherently magical elements found in fire-based magic effects'. In other words, magic spells (and maybe red dragon breath) will not trigger an explosion, but if someone tosses the wizard into a bonfire, or smacks him with a torch, flaming catapult projectile, etcetera, then he has a problem. The exact same problems that a real-world musketeer or buccaneer would have had.
While less contrived, this doesn't match existing lore on the matter.
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
I am of the opinion that this was the tack taken in Red Steel, that had fine-precision wheellock guns ('Smithy and Westron') and used more standard gunpowder - the world axiom (effectively) said that magical fire was not really an issue when interacting with powder, because that would have taken away from one of the setting's hallmark 'schticks'.
Where does it say so?
As to "more standard" - Savage Baronines' smokepowder is made by carefully melting together vermeil and steel seed, products of that curse (which explains its interaction with cinnabryl)... and Vermeil got inherent magical aura, among other things.
Existing lore and lore for 5e regarding smokepowder CAN be two different things. Remember, smokepowder has only been around since the "physics" of the realms went wonky with the tablets of fate during the ToT. If for 5e they wanted to introduce that smokepowder is no longer affected by magic (because for instance, the physics of the realms is back to what it was in the old grey box), because say its magically inert OR immune to magical fire and lightning... they could do so. They could also write away the lore that the author who had the character building the canal happened upon a recipe for gunpowder that worked.... but once physics changed, it no longer did. Maybe it might be explained away that in Abeir, gunpowder can work. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2012 : 15:26:32
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Just came across some of Ed's thought on guns in the realms from 2004
Snip....
You have called, and The Hooded One answers. Everything following the colon at the end of this sentence are the words of Ed himself (and so, following the original legal agreement between TSR and Ed, my wrinkled copy of which lies in front of me, can be considered "official" or as folks out on the Net now put it, canon):
Guns were in D&D from the original Greyhawk campaign onwards (read Jim Ward's "Faceless Men And Clockwork Monsters" in an early issue of DRAGON), and "doing them up for 2nd Edition and the Realms" in two DRAGON articles was my first real "contributing editor" assignment from Kim Mohan (that is, an assigned topic, as opposed to "give me more of X that you've already sent in"). I think Jim Ward's original approach (a 'strange wand' that's so rare and limited in ammo that no one sees it as distinct from magic) is probably the best one, but the published Realms has always striven to give DMs and players maximum play opportunities, and smokepowder weapons are a tool useful in some styles of play. For one thing, it creates new mercantile cargoes of vital importance (for PC dealing, theft, piracy, investment, etc.). Roger Zelazny tackled this problem ably in THE GUNS OF AVALON, the second Amber novel, wherein the abrasive known as "jeweller's rouge" in our Earth is the only firearms-useful explosive in Amber. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11716 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2012 : 15:38:36
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
Or, the axioms of the Realms may state that 'the magical properties that are inherent in smokepowder act as a neutralizing force when applied against the inherently magical elements found in fire-based magic effects'. In other words, magic spells (and maybe red dragon breath) will not trigger an explosion, but if someone tosses the wizard into a bonfire, or smacks him with a torch, flaming catapult projectile, etcetera, then he has a problem. The exact same problems that a real-world musketeer or buccaneer would have had.
While less contrived, this doesn't match existing lore on the matter.
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
I am of the opinion that this was the tack taken in Red Steel, that had fine-precision wheellock guns ('Smithy and Westron') and used more standard gunpowder - the world axiom (effectively) said that magical fire was not really an issue when interacting with powder, because that would have taken away from one of the setting's hallmark 'schticks'.
Where does it say so?
As to "more standard" - Savage Baronines' smokepowder is made by carefully melting together vermeil and steel seed, products of that curse (which explains its interaction with cinnabryl)... and Vermeil got inherent magical aura, among other things.
Existing lore and lore for 5e regarding smokepowder CAN be two different things. Remember, smokepowder has only been around since the "physics" of the realms went wonky with the tablets of fate during the ToT. If for 5e they wanted to introduce that smokepowder is no longer affected by magic (because for instance, the physics of the realms is back to what it was in the old grey box), because say its magically inert OR immune to magical fire and lightning... they could do so. They could also write away the lore that the author who had the character building the canal happened upon a recipe for gunpowder that worked.... but once physics changed, it no longer did. Maybe it might be explained away that in Abeir, gunpowder can work.
Also, just to also throw out there, before smokepowder was the norm, the Thayans had bombards using a liquid chemical propulsion system of some sort. Therefore, there's other "explosive" technologies out there (not necessarily useful in guns, but possibly in other mediums). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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PaulBestwick
Seeker
United Kingdom
83 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2012 : 16:31:55
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| Remember oldscholl (1e) Fireballs expanded to fill te area of a sphere (20 radius from memory). Having this in a potion form would certainly enable you to fire a cannon of sorts, but I would suggest that its not practical for hand held firearms. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2391 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2012 : 17:36:36
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Also, just to also throw out there, before smokepowder was the norm, the Thayans had bombards using a liquid chemical propulsion system of some sort. Therefore, there's other "explosive" technologies out there (not necessarily useful in guns, but possibly in other mediums).
quote:
Originally posted by PaulBestwick
Remember oldscholl (1e) Fireballs expanded to fill te area of a sphere (20 radius from memory). Having this in a potion form would certainly enable you to fire a cannon of sorts, but I would suggest that its not practical for hand held firearms.
Oh, please. If you want an explicitly magical propellant, the most obvious one is telekinesis (direct as in netherpelter or indirect as in "better pneumatic gun"). The close second is steam. FR got Carrague's Decanter of Endless Steam, but it probably can't give sharp waves of artillery-grade pressure, and this would require very fast steam valves anyway.
The simplest pulsed power source for steam is: water + small fire spell = flash-boiling "explosion". A wand serves as the spell "magazine", water comes via volume doser which doubles as a valve (if feeds from decanter of endless water) or even better a simple piston pump (which also works fine with for mundane flasks). So only the projectile needs to be loaded every shot. This device is already one step away from proper pump-action, but even if you keep it at hinge-action, this still starts with more dakka than any snuff-box type firearm can feasibly reach. Here you go.
Of course, in the simple variant the blast chamber is going to break from hydraulic shock soon enough, but this can be fixed by mechanical design and/or tweaking the fire spell itself.
I'd use it as a baseline ("is it already twisted enough that a flashgun would be easier/cheaper?" thing) rather than something buildable in Realms as more than an unique oddity. Though of course, spelljamming factions advanced enough to mass produce compatible wands and breech parts may well mass produce this sort of a contraption (with chill fire on top, naturally). |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2012 : 18:32:38
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We know that this sort of 'tech' is/was available in the Realms, and a hundred years later it should be even moreso (although a disaster could explain why much knowledge was lost).
Perhaps what they should do is produce a core book similar to the Gothic Earth one, but more generic, and include magi-tech (arcane steampunk). Have some very early Renaissance/Late Medieval weapons and stuff, etc., useable in most campaign worlds. THEN, have a section, "In the Realms..." that would explain where you might find this stuff in FR.
DMs who don't like it can simply ignore that source. DMs who do can buy it and they are good to go. 5e(FR) should not be about restrictions - it should be about options. You can ignore quite a bit in the core FR books, and still cover a lot of bases in splats.
The only time this should ever be an issue is in novels (because then it becomes canon), but I can think of at least three canon references in novels - one major (the entire Maztica series), one 'medium' (Dragonwall)and one minor (Elminster mentions a wand "like a gunne, in the Gondish fashion"). Authors can simply choose to not use them (which I am sure most will), and those that want to take the risk, can - it is really no big deal. We've had guns for quite some time, and it hasn't made any impact at all. In fact, in the Empires trilogy, they make a point of demonstrating how dangerous and ineffectual Smokepowder weapons are. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Sep 2012 18:34:04 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2012 : 19:04:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
We know that this sort of 'tech' is/was available in the Realms, and a hundred years later it should be even moreso (although a disaster could explain why much knowledge was lost).
Perhaps what they should do is produce a core book similar to the Gothic Earth one, but more generic, and include magi-tech (arcane steampunk). Have some very early Renaissance/Late Medieval weapons and stuff, etc., useable in most campaign worlds. THEN, have a section, "In the Realms..." that would explain where you might find this stuff in FR.
DMs who don't like it can simply ignore that source. DMs who do can buy it and they are good to go. 5e(FR) should not be about restrictions - it should be about options. You can ignore quite a bit in the core FR books, and still cover a lot of bases in splats.
The only time this should ever be an issue is in novels (because then it becomes canon), but I can think of at least three canon references in novels - one major (the entire Maztica series), one 'medium' (Dragonwall)and one minor (Elminster mentions a wand "like a gunne, in the Gondish fashion"). Authors can simply choose to not use them (which I am sure most will), and those that want to take the risk, can - it is really no big deal. We've had guns for quite some time, and it hasn't made any impact at all. In fact, in the Empires trilogy, they make a point of demonstrating how dangerous and ineffectual Smokepowder weapons are.
A couple of the earlier Realms of anthologies featured stories with smoke powder (and spelljamming, in at least one of them). |
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Muskets in Faerun
