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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Sep 2012 : 00:26:27
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I make no secret of the fact that I know little of what happened in 4e beyond the initial realms campaign set and what was in a few novels. I've not been against the primordial idea, as I enjoyed the idea of the titans in the scarred worlds setting. I've just been against what was done to a lot of the realms that I've previously loved. This all being said, there seems to have been much said about primordials in the initial box, but I don't recall hearing of any major list of them besides Bazim-Gorag and the 4 elemental lords (who were gods in 4e)... plus whatever primordial the warlock knights worked with. Were there a lot of primordials released and were any of them interesting? I ask because I don't see a lot of folks mentioning them.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2012 : 01:33:36
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Yeah, ever since the advent of 4E, the Realms SUDDENLY has a host of primordials that either existed, but were never known to be this new type of being called "primordial", or never existed until the Spellplague.
A comprehensive list of both known and possible primordials would be a great thing for the FR designers to provide.
Mechanics-wise, I believe primordials and gods work the same way and that primordial and deity are just cosmetic fluff. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2012 : 04:45:09
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| WotC thread on the subject. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2012 : 11:24:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
WotC thread on the subject.
Ah, so that's where they are... they released them all in dragon (the few in FRCS being already existing realms entities or dead beings or sleeping beings or ones that never came over). Ironically, if they release a printed version of that information (and its actually good), I might be interested in reading it. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2012 : 11:39:51
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| My brother and I describe Maram of the Great Spear, one of the Seven Losts Gods, as a primordial lord. The Great Spear being a location within the Elemental Chaos. We basically alluded to the fact that the Seven Lost Gods were all, in fact, primordials. We also described a lesser primordial named Pyricus in the same adventure (Dungeon #170: Monument of the Ancients). |
Edited by - Matt James on 12 Sep 2012 11:43:51 |
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Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2012 : 13:28:13
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Telos, Talos, Teylas  |
z455t |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2012 : 15:20:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
My brother and I describe Maram of the Great Spear, one of the Seven Losts Gods, as a primordial lord. The Great Spear being a location within the Elemental Chaos. We basically alluded to the fact that the Seven Lost Gods were all, in fact, primordials. We also described a lesser primordial named Pyricus in the same adventure (Dungeon #170: Monument of the Ancients).
Before the Elemental Chaos existed, where would th Great Spear have been located Great Wheel-wise? |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2012 : 15:36:25
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Here is a roster of known Primordials:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/excerpts/excerpt_element1.pdf
It should be easy to figure out which ones are from the FR setting. |
I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2012 : 19:00:50
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Looking at the lists, I have a number of inquiries.
I think the enigmatic "Water Lion" should be on the primordial list. Also would the animal gods, like Remnis and Trishina, count as primordials? And what about the Yuir Gods? They might just be archfey, actually. But the Simbul was one of them and was considered a goddess with dominion over "the moment.". But that very well could be a primordial domain the more I think about it. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2012 : 20:16:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
Here is a roster of known Primordials:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/excerpts/excerpt_element1.pdf
It should be easy to figure out which ones are from the FR setting.
Oh, That's kind of interesting.... so this alludes to the idea that Athas had primordials and not gods.... which could kind of fit with what little I remember of Athas.. and could explain why they were supposed to be cut off from the rest of the multiverse. Never understood how starving people could be so physically fit though. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2012 : 21:12:03
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Which is why I said it would be VERY easy to combine Athas with Abeir - two godless worlds, stuck in their own 'closed' sphere.
The part of the planet we know as 'Athas' is just on a different hemisphere. In another thread I gave a few more reasons why this would be a good fit (I picture both being 'hot worlds', but the Abeir side is more Jungle/tropical rain forest/savannah). Also, both have a penchant for being ruled by 'Dragon Kings' - the more you think about it, the more perfect a fit it seems. On a world with little or no (normal) magic, dragons would rule supreme. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2012 : 21:27:29
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| The only ones that I usually just keep in check are the original ones: Akadi, Istishia, Kossuth and Grumbar. It'd be interesting to know if there are any other pre-3e, though. |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2012 : 06:25:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Razz
Looking at the lists, I have a number of inquiries.
I think the enigmatic "Water Lion" should be on the primordial list. Also would the animal gods, like Remnis and Trishina, count as primordials? And what about the Yuir Gods? They might just be archfey, actually. But the Simbul was one of them and was considered a goddess with dominion over "the moment.". But that very well could be a primordial domain the more I think about it.
Keep in mind that primordials are elemental beings driven by chaos. A better fit for the types of entities you're describing are known as primal spirits. Examples of primal spirits in the Realms include Magnar the Bear, Remnis the Eagle, Quorlinn the Raven, and Nobanion the Lion. Just as primordials can be venerated as gods (Akadi, Istishia, Kossuth and Grumbar for example), so can primal spirits. The most well known primal spirit dieties being the Earthmother of the Moonshaes and Eldath. The Yuir Gods are also a possibly primal spirits (though they haven't been officially lablled as such to my knowledge). |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
657 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2012 : 16:16:06
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| The slaad lords aren't in the second list. I wonder what are they |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2012 : 01:44:46
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@BEAST: Interestingly, Maegera is actually a genderless primordial, though some people refer to it as "he" and some (like myself) often consider it a "she." I suppose the accurate pronoun would be "it." 
@all: Also a Primordial I created: the Golden Monolith of Erishani (Plane Above p 108-109), which is an imprisoned Primordial of an unknown name and power. "Erishani" is actually the name of the only angel known to have fought in the battle that left the Primordial entombed in the pocket plane.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2012 : 04:09:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
@BEAST: Interestingly, Maegera is actually a genderless primordial, though some people refer to it as "he" and some (like myself) often consider it a "she." I suppose the accurate pronoun would be "it."
How do you know it doesn't have a gender? Did somebody go and lift up its skirt?
Sorry. 
Yeah, I figured as much. But I thought that writing "it doesn't give its title" might be more confusing, so I editorialized a little.  |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2012 : 02:04:25
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Totally understandable!
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
@BEAST: Interestingly, Maegera is actually a genderless primordial, though some people refer to it as "he" and some (like myself) often consider it a "she." I suppose the accurate pronoun would be "it."
How do you know it doesn't have a gender? Did somebody go and lift up its skirt?
You know, it's strange. We designers don't often go into the death-defying things we do in the name of lore research. I will tell you this much--we DEFINITELY don't do this for the money.
I rather think that gender is a mortal construction, and primordials have nothing to do with it. They don't reproduce (at least not sexually, at least not that we know of). They don't have a social strata where gender is relevant. So all primordials are basically "it," though mortal sages/adventurers might project whatever gender they want on a primordial.
IMO, gods have gender because either 1) they were originally mortal (and possessed a gender) or 2) mortals perceive them a certain way, so they take on that gender. It hearkens back a little to my theory that gods are formed by primordials touching the souls of mortals, and thus absorbing a little of their essence. They become more like mortals, which makes them fundamentally different from primordials.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2012 : 14:27:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Totally understandable!
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
@BEAST: Interestingly, Maegera is actually a genderless primordial, though some people refer to it as "he" and some (like myself) often consider it a "she." I suppose the accurate pronoun would be "it."
How do you know it doesn't have a gender? Did somebody go and lift up its skirt?
You know, it's strange. We designers don't often go into the death-defying things we do in the name of lore research. I will tell you this much--we DEFINITELY don't do this for the money.
I rather think that gender is a mortal construction, and primordials have nothing to do with it. They don't reproduce (at least not sexually, at least not that we know of). They don't have a social strata where gender is relevant. So all primordials are basically "it," though mortal sages/adventurers might project whatever gender they want on a primordial.
IMO, gods have gender because either 1) they were originally mortal (and possessed a gender) or 2) mortals perceive them a certain way, so they take on that gender. It hearkens back a little to my theory that gods are formed by primordials touching the souls of mortals, and thus absorbing a little of their essence. They become more like mortals, which makes them fundamentally different from primordials.
Cheers
That hearkens back to the fact that Corellon was originally either male or female, but ultimately is now more commonly portrayed as male. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2012 : 17:33:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
Looking at the lists, I have a number of inquiries.
I think the enigmatic "Water Lion" should be on the primordial list. Also would the animal gods, like Remnis and Trishina, count as primordials? And what about the Yuir Gods? They might just be archfey, actually. But the Simbul was one of them and was considered a goddess with dominion over "the moment.". But that very well could be a primordial domain the more I think about it.
Keep in mind that primordials are elemental beings driven by chaos. A better fit for the types of entities you're describing are known as primal spirits. Examples of primal spirits in the Realms include Magnar the Bear, Remnis the Eagle, Quorlinn the Raven, and Nobanion the Lion. Just as primordials can be venerated as gods (Akadi, Istishia, Kossuth and Grumbar for example), so can primal spirits. The most well known primal spirit dieties being the Earthmother of the Moonshaes and Eldath. The Yuir Gods are also a possibly primal spirits (though they haven't been officially lablled as such to my knowledge).
I see. Thanks for clearing that up.
But the Water Lion is clearly a primordial I assume? Especially considering the obscure mention of it. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2012 : 17:54:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
You know, it's strange. We designers don't often go into the death-defying things we do in the name of lore research. I will tell you this much--we DEFINITELY don't do this for the money.
I hope they hooked you up with some Kevlar and Nomex fire-resistant gear.
At least an oven mitt or something! 
quote:
I rather think that gender is a mortal construction, and primordials have nothing to do with it. They don't reproduce (at least not sexually, at least not that we know of). They don't have a social strata where gender is relevant. So all primordials are basically "it," though mortal sages/adventurers might project whatever gender they want on a primordial.
In an old philosophy class, the prof once asked the class what does it even mean to say that a god is a "He". Does that mean that this supposedly incorporeal spirit-being has testicles and a penis? Is there a prodigious amount of testosterone hormone running through its veins? (Does it even have/need veins?) Does it not only have a great flowing beard, but also a hairy chest and arms? If it's male, it's gotta have big muscles, right? How low is its voice (because testosterone lowers the voice)? Does a god wear clothes to cover up all its genderific bits, or does it just go bare-naked?
And then he delivered Ian Malcolm's line from Jurassic Park.
I like the beautifully simple idea of asexual creatures, generating new genomes or whatever from within, and then budding whole new offspring forth (like Athena arising from Zeus's splitting headache, or a hydra or troll), rather than having a division of genders across the species. The latter makes reproduction much more difficult, and it's so limiting. That brings into question how "godlike" a supposed god is, if it's limited to just one gender, like that.
But then, I guess there's always an open door to divine transgenderism in some people's Realms . . . 
(That reminds me: remember the line in JP about the scientists using certain frog DNA, and those frogs were known to spontaneously switch genders, based on the social/survival needs of their local communities? What if gods are like that?)
quote:
IMO, gods have gender because either 1) they were originally mortal (and possessed a gender)
The Herakles/Hercules route to divinity.
quote:
or 2) mortals perceive them a certain way, so they take on that gender.
Creating a god in one's own image? Or at least, modifying a god into fitting one's own image?
Now, that really brings into question how "godlike" a god is. When it is so limited as that, having its essence readily morphable by the beliefs of its followers, then it devolves into something more like a programmable robot/construct, than a god, IMO. A god is a golem; a golem becomes a god.
[EDIT: I'm having visions of that one Martian from The Martian Chronicles, who, like the song from Everclear, tried to be everything to everyone. Everywhere it went, bystanders would see in it whatever/whomever they wanted to see. At first, this ability helped the poor Martian to survive the initial arrival of Earthling settlers and concomitant reduction in indigenous Martian population, by blending in with small pockets of humans. But as the human population rose, the sheer number of people to please became overwhelming for the Martian, and it was driven mad.]
[EDIT: Or maybe Realms gods can change gender on a whim? Frog DNA, FTW!]
[EDIT: Come to think of it, maybe this would not be so limiting, after all. If deities were transgendered, or hermaphroditic, avatars could theoretically display whichever qualities a particular follower needed in a specific circumstance, while the deity, itself, remained stable.]
quote:
It hearkens back a little to my theory that gods are formed by primordials touching the souls of mortals, and thus absorbing a little of their essence. They become more like mortals, which makes them fundamentally different from primordials.
I love that idea the most. It's like the red pill versus the blue pill: a primordial makes an active, conscious decision whether to meddle in mortal affairs, and in so doing, undergoes very significant changes. Call it a bit of a curse, perhaps, like an angel taking on human form in order to taste the pleasures of the flesh. Just by compromising primordial sanctity and isolationism even one iota, and sinking to the level of recognizing the validity of mortal concerns whatsoever, a primordial loses something of its original self, and takes on something of its curiosity-inspiring playthings.
But does it gain more than it loses? That's probably a gold mine of a subject to explore. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 15 Sep 2012 18:13:34 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2017 : 03:17:34
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Hmmmm... the link I put in at the top is now defunct (of course - it links to Waizard's site).
Anyone got a copy of this list? As long as I am trying to make a list of EVERYONE who was around for the Dawn War, I'm gonna need these guys too (and here I thought this was the easy part).
This List seems to be FR-specific, because its the FR Wiki, but I see a few there that are GH-specific - does this look complete to you, ZeromaruX? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2017 : 08:45:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Hmmmm... the link I put in at the top is now defunct (of course - it links to Waizard's site).
Anyone got a copy of this list? As long as I am trying to make a list of EVERYONE who was around for the Dawn War, I'm gonna need these guys too (and here I thought this was the easy part).
This List seems to be FR-specific, because its the FR Wiki, but I see a few there that are GH-specific - does this look complete to you, ZeromaruX?
The list in the wiki is just a list of FR primordials, and in that respect is somehow complete (not to be a jerk, but I helped to complete that list  ). BTW, if you're searching for your posts in the WotC forums, I highly recommend you to search in the Secrets of the Archmages website.
Now, unlike gods, that are (or can be) multi-spheric, primordials are mostly anchored to one point of the multiverse according to Heroes of the Elemental Chaos. They can be known in other spheres, to be sure (examples of this are Io/Asgorath or the Elemental Lords of the Realms—that, according to Heroes of the Elemental Chaos, are also revered in Nentir Vale), but the primordials that are multi-spheric are pretty rare.
The difference between primordials and archomentals is thin. Some lore suggests that archomentals played little or no part in the world's creation and arose at some point afterward (maybe they are the firsts creations of the original primordials). Most mortals refer to these entities as the Elemental Princes.
If what you need is a complete list of all primordials and archomentals, I have it as well.
Note: Unsourced material is from Heroes of the Elemental Chaos. If you want to know the sources for backstory, I can provide (all are compiled in my soon to be published updated NV document).
List of known primordials:
Primordials of Abeir-Toril
Living and free:
Akadi: The Queen of Air. Female. Elemental lord worshiped as goddess of the sky.
Asgorath: The World Shaper. Female? Male? A primordial who hurled a comet at Abeir-Toril, creating the Sea of Fallen Stars; worshiped in the draconic pantheon. Known in the Outer Planes as the god Io.
Bazim-Gorag: The Firebringer. Male. An ascended batrachi and elemental lord worshiped as god of chaos. (FRCG, p.78-79)
Grumbar: The Lord of Earth. Elemental lord worshiped as god of the earth.
Istishia: The Lord of Water. Male. Elemental lord worshiped as god of water.
Kezef: The Chaos Hound. Male. An Elder Evil that hunts mortal souls.
Kossuth: The Lord of Fire. Male. Elemental lord worshiped as god of fire.
Ubtao: The Deceiver. Male. A primordial that keeps Dendar imprisoned; worshiped as the god of Chult.
Living and dormant:
Achazar: The Pillar of Wrath, the Raging Flame, the Tongue of Fire. Male. A fire primordial that ruled Tarmalune in Laerakond. Now sleeping in the form of a gigantic pillar of fire.
Cirotralech: (No title given). Male. Dormant fire and ice primordial trapped under the mountains of Fimbrul in Laerakond. (LFR, Stir Not the World's Doom)
Maegera: The Inferno. Male. Dormant fire primordial trapped under Gauntlgrym.
Rorn: Blazing Rorn the Fury, Rorn of the Rages. Male. Powerful lava-like primordial, hated by both gods and other primordials because he killed many of both groups before the Sundering of Abeir-Toril. Dormant and trapped in Fimbrul, Laerakond.
Telos: (No title given). Male. Dormant in Vaasa. Mined by the Warlock Knights.
An unknown primordial slumbering in Eskorn, Laerakond (FRCS p204, 207).
Living and awake, but bound:
Dendar: The Night Serpent. Female. An Elder Evil trapped in Chult; fated to destroy the world.
Draunn: (No title given). Male. An earth primordial. A fragment of him was sealed in Deadstone Cleft in Greypeak Mountains. (Storm's King Thunder, so I don't have info about him  )
Entropy: (No title given). Male? Held in a sphere of annihilation; now free?
Maram: Maram of the Great Spear. Male. One of the Seven Lost Gods; sealed in the Elemental Chaos by the Monuments of the Ancients.
Dead:
Arambar: (No title given). Male. Slain just before the Sundering of Abeir-Toril; its essence causes Abeir’s steelsky.
Borem: Borem of the Lake of Boiling Mud. Male. One of the Seven Lost Gods; killed by Bane, Myrkul, and Bhaal in their mortal lives.
Dur-baagal: (No title given). Unknown. An ice primordial slain by Auril at the dawn of time.
Petron: Merciless Petron. Female. Slain during the War of Fang and Talon; her corpse made up the Dead Stone Mountains in Shyr, Abeir. (The Devil You Know)
An unknown primordial presumed dead in Gontal, Laerakond (DR366 p51-52).
Unknown status:
Karshimis: Despot of Shyr. Male. Primordial of Abeir, ruler of the land of Shyr.
Nehushta: (No title given). Female. Primordial who created the fortress of Glaur during the Dawn War. Killed in the War of Fang and Talon, but somehow a part of her was able to survive.
Primordials of Athas:
Living and free:
Herumar: The Sand Scourge. Unknown. Monstrous hydra-like primordial dwelling in the Endless Sand Dunes.
Ul-Athra: The Mouths of Thirst. Unknown. Monstrous primordial of the Sea of Silt; spawner of silt horrors.
Primordials of the Nentir Vale (Dawn War):
Living and free:
Alu Kahn Sang: The Wind of Destruction. Male. A vast, raging dust storm in the Elemental Chaos.
Atropus: The World Born Dead. Male. A vast primordial of undeath, spawner of the atropals. Believed to be a proto-entity (ancestor of gods and primordials) before he died.
Iktha-Lau: The Ever Empty. Female. Primordial of nothingness, uncaring and remote.
Murgremir: The Rotting Hill. Unknown. Primordial of muck and decay that haunts the Blackmire, in the Elemental Chaos.
Ty-h'kadi: The Prince of Thunder and Lightning. Male. A storm primordial, rival of Heur-Ket.
Ulctilantilokla: (No title given). Unknown. Only partly real. Said to have germinated from the seed of the multiverse's first dream.
Living and dormant:
Bryakus: The Colossus of Chaos, the Father of Fear. Male. He was sundered into many pieces in the Dawn War; its blood spawned all hydras.
Castanamir: The Shattered Khan. Male. Patron of storm and cloud giants, entombed in an island in the sea of the Nerath world.
The Queen of Chaos: Demonic primordial or obyrith. Female. Now dormant in the Steaming Fen, an Abyssal layer.
Tziphal: The Mountain Builder. Unknown. Primordial of folding earth, petrification and volcanoes; created many races with power of petrification.
Living and awake, but bound:
The Abnegator: (No title given). Unknown. A former primordial who volunteered for the god Torog's service. Torog tortured him and then transformed him into the Restless Heaps region in the Underdark. The Abnegator is the name given to him by Torog, his former name is unknown. (UD, p.159)
Athuam: The Falling Sky. Male. A mineral primordial trapped in Pluton by Nerull during the Dawn War. He created the avalanche dragons. (DR424, p.7)
Balcoth: The Groaning King. Male. It was defeated in the Dawn War by the combined effort of Bahamut, Bane and Moradin. While his head is trapped in a prison in Nerath world, his body, headless, roams the Elemental Chaos.
The Elder Elemental Eye: The First Primordial. Male. Supposed first primordial bound in the deeps of the Abyss. Actually, he doesn't exist: he is an alias of the god Tharizdun.
The Golden Monolith: (No title given). Female. A primordial presently petrified on the astral dominion of Erishani. Her true name is unknown. (SotAS p.108)
Heur-Ket: The Storm Unabated. Male. Storm primordial, bound in Hestavar by Erathis, Ioun and Pelor.
Mual-Tar: The Thunder Serpent. Unknown. A lightning primordial. Defeated by Bahamut, Moradin and Pelor, and bound in the Elemental Chaos by chains forged by Moradin.
Piranoth: The World Mover. Male. Primordial of earth, fire and frost; patron of giants. Bound in the Elemental Chaos in the waning days of the Dawn War.
Shangar: The Uncrowned. Unknown. A primordial of fire.
Sisanthak: The Endless Winter. Female. Ice primordial trapped on the astral mote Frostburn.
Solkara: The Crushing Wave. Unknown. Primordial of crushing depths and icy cold defeated by Melora, Kord, and Sehanine; imprisoned in a glacier.
Storralk: (No title given). Male. A primordial of stone and earth, who challenged Demogorgon during the Dawn War and was defeated. He is trapped in Demogorgon's throne with a ritual that inflicts him endless agony. Its blood spawned the ettins. (MM2, p.46)
Umboras: Lord of Rimefire. Male. Ice primordial. During the War of Winter (one of the godswars after the Dawn War) he challenged the Raven Queen for the Winter portfolio. She lured him to Pandemonium and trapped him there.
Vezzuvu: The Burning Mountain. Female. Volcano primordial; trapped in a field of radiance.
Vorsheen: (No title given). Female. Fire primordial, trapped on the astral mote Frostburn.
Dead:
Erek-Hus: The King of Terror. Male. With the help of Zehir, he clove Io in two during the Dawn War. He then was killed in turn by Bahamut and Tiamat.
Gargash: (No title given). Male. A primordial that cursed Torog before the god killed him before the Dawn War. As he has incredible powers of regeneration, Torog has his servants remodeling his carcass 24/7 so he could not resurrect. He is now the Living Torture Den of Torog, near the drow city of Erelhei-Cinlu, in the Underdark.
Haemnathuun: The Blood lord. Male. Creator of abominations. Killed by the combined efforts of Bahamut, Bane and Ioun, its corpse floats in the Astral Sea.
Ilmeth: (No title given). Male. A primordial who regretted the lives he took and was slain by his own followers in the Dawn War. It exists as a vestige now. (AP, p.79)
Lormoch: The Master of Tides. Male. One of the first primordials to be slain by the gods during the Dawn War, because they feared his ability to warp reality.
Nekal: Of the Glowing Deep. Male. Water primordial slain by Pelor, Kord, Bane and Sehanine. His defeat was a turning point in the Dawn War, as the genasi began to follow the gods after they saw him killed.
Nihil: Primordial of unbeing. Male. Defeated by Bahamut during the Dawn War. Nihil's demise also killed Lakal, the goddess-realm.
Ramenos: (No title given). Male. A primordial whose carcass forms the 53rd layer of the Abyss. (Demon, p.77)
Sehil: (No title given). Unknown. Primordial killed by Kord in last battle of the Dawn War.
Shax: The Destroyer. Unknown. Dead primordial of the sea; exists as a vestige now.
Syvexrae: The Queen of Stone. Female. Her body serves as the palace of Doresain.
Tabrach-Ti: The Queen of Bronze. Female. The first primordial to fall in the Dawn War; slain by Bane.
Timesus: The Black Star. Male. A primordial of dissolution and entropy. He was more powerful than most primordials, and was only killed by the combined might of several gods. (E1-E3)
Throan: (No title given). Unknown. Aquatic primordial killed by the obyrith Dagon. (Demon, p.154)
The Stone King: The Living Rock. Male. It may have been a primordial sired by Annam. He died two hundred years before the current year of a Nentir Vale campaign. (DR394, p.53)
Volunt: (No title given). Unknown. Sent into the Shadowfell during the final battle of the Dawn War, where the shades there tear him apart, leaving only the Darkreach Mountain Range behind. (S'fell p.80)
Zurtharak: The Vein of Iron. Unknown. An earth primordial defeated by Bahamut, Kord and Moradin using the powerful Guldarak, "the God Hammer".
An unknown oceanic primordial who, so it's dragonborn followers believe, was killed when the astral dominion of Celestia was dropped on it like a boulder. (SotAS, p.48)
An ancient and forgotten primordial whose essence was used to create the Forge of Four Worlds. (E3, p.12) -potentially, it can be Garash.
A primordial of manifest dissolution defeated by an entity of pure lifeforce known as Zutwa. (AP, p.73)
A primordial of ice destroyed by the World Serpent and Everflame (a primal spirit of fire) during the War of Winter. (PrP, p.129)
Unknown status:
Annam: The First Creator. Male. (DR394, p.53)
Alyolvoy: (No title given). Unknown. An obscure primordial of water and mud.
Deluvius: (No title given). Male. Primordial with power over time, who created the Deluvian Hourglass. (DU159, p.24)
Garash: (No title given). Male. A primordial that vanished in the Abyss seeking the Shard of Pure Evil. He can be the dead primordial used as a power source for the Forge of Four Worlds.
Kir-Yagh: The Queen of the Burning Mountains. Female. (DR380, p.76)
Miska: The Wolf Spider. Male. Demonic primordial banished by the Wind Dukes of Aaqa using the Rod of Seven Parts. (Demon, p.9)
Uzrith: (No title given). Unknown. An obscure primordial of earth and mud.
Turned into Demon Princes:
Baphomet (Demon, p.8)
Codricuhn (DU172, p.90)
Demogorgon (Demon, p.8)
Ollomegh (Demon, p.76)
Orcus (Demon, p.8)
Yeenoghu (DR364, p.7)
List of known archomentals:
Living and free:
Ben-hadar: The Valorous Tempest. Male. Lord of good sea creatures.
Chan: The Silent One. Female. Queen of good air creatures.
Crystalle: King of Minerals. Male. Prince of mineral creatures.
Ehkahk: The Smoldering Duke. Male. Prince of smoke creatures, ruler of Fume in the Elemental Chaos.
Gazra: The Shifting Emperor. Male. Prince of ash creatures.
Sun Sing: Viceroy of the Void. Unknown. An archomental associated with darkness and emptiness.
Sunnis: The True Stone. Female. Patron of the Underdark, venerated by svirfneblin and stonechildren.
Zaaman Rul: The Resilient Ember. Male. Child of Imix and Bristia Pel.
Living and awake, but bound:
Chlimbia: Prince of Magma. Male. Prince of evil magma creatures.
Cryonax: Prince of Elemental Cold. Male. Prince of evil cold creatures. Sealed beneath Melora's stone shield. (DR401, "Channel Divinity: Melora")
Imix: Prince of Elemental Fire. Male. Prince of evil fire creatures. Bound by Moradin. (DR394, p.52)
Ogrémoch: Prince of Elemental Earth. Male. Prince of evil earth creatures.
Olhydra: Princess of Elemental Water. Female. Princess of evil water creatures.
Yan-C-Bin: Prince of Elemental Air. Male. Prince of evil air creatures.
Dead:
Bristia Pel: Princess of Everlasting Flame. Female. An archomental of fire, killed in battle against the Queen of Chaos.
An archomental of acid that died creating the Tarrasque. (DR418, p.6)
An archomental of bone and blade that died creating the Tarrasque. (DR418, p.6)
Unknown status:
Bwimb: Baron of Ooze. Male. Prince of evil ooze creatures; killed by Orcus but respawned as a new Bwimb (female).
Sources:
AP: Arcane Power
Demon: Demonomicon
DR: Dragon mag
DU: Dungeon mag
E#: 4e adventure path, epic level adventures (E1-Death's Reach, E2-Kingdom of the Ghouls, E3-Prince of Undeath)
FRCG: Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide
MM#: Monster Manual [number] (4e)
PrP: Primal Power
UD: Underdark (4e)
S'fell: The Shadowfell - Gloomwrought and Beyond
SotAS: The Plane Above: Secrets of the Astral Sea |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 20 Oct 2017 09:47:44 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2017 : 11:43:49
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Huh, so they actually stated that many of the demon princes were "converted" primordials. Not sure where to take that, but interesting.
I'd be interested in some more info on the archomentals. It seems that the "lords of elemental evil" aren't going away, since the fire newts of Chult previously worshipped Kossuth, but now they're listed as serving Imix in the latest adventure.... so it might be worth it to know about other than the 4 traditional ones. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2017 : 12:18:06
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Huh, so they actually stated that many of the demon princes were "converted" primordials. Not sure where to take that, but interesting.
Not all, just some. Is stated that only the most powerful primordials who entered in the Abyss survived and were transformed. The weak ones just died.
Other demon princes are stated to be transformed obyriths (Pazuzu, Dagon, Obox-Ob, among others), and other were directly spawned by the Abyss.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I'd be interested in some more info on the archomentals. It seems that the "lords of elemental evil" aren't going away, since the fire newts of Chult previously worshipped Kossuth, but now they're listed as serving Imix in the latest adventure.... so it might be worth it to know about other than the 4 traditional ones.
Heroes of the Elemental Chaos have some info about them, and there are other sources in Markustay's link as well. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 20 Oct 2017 12:19:19 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2017 : 16:06:54
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Great list! I am assuming THAT ONE is the complete list? (containing ones not on the FRwiki?)
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Now, unlike gods, that are (or can be) multi-spheric, primordials are mostly anchored to one point of the multiverse according to Heroes of the Elemental Chaos. They can be known in other spheres, to be sure (examples of this are Io/Asgorath or the Elemental Lords of the Realms—that, according to Heroes of the Elemental Chaos, are also revered in Nentir Vale), but the primordials that are multi-spheric are pretty rare.
The difference between primordials and archomentals is thin. Some lore suggests that archomentals played little or no part in the world's creation and arose at some point afterward (maybe they are the firsts creations of the original primordials). Most mortals refer to these entities as the Elemental Princes.
I can actually use all this.
Since my homebrew version has more divisions (tiers) in it, I can make all this work. In fact, for the first time ever, my once-completely homebrew over-Cosmology is going to be mostly canon (basically, sticking to canon, but 'filling in the details' and expanded upon).
The most basic premise that is different (not against canon, more like 'extra info') is that the creatures that everyone (mortals) are referring to as primordials are in fact Ordials. Prime Ordials are the lowest tier, and anchored to a specific point (mostly Prime Material worlds at this point).
I was just now considering making arcomentals the lowest tier, but that doesn't quite work with the canon, so they're going to become my Intermediate tier -
Monad ("The ONE", 'the Source', etc.)
Supernals (aspects of the Monad)
Eternals (Some came before the Sidereals, others, after)
These are the beings that are hard to categorize, but they have near-infinite power over certain things.
Sidereals (Conceptuals - 'the first ideas', 'Elder Gods')
The Dimensions (NOT planes). Ten 'known' + Monad = Eleven, but could easily be more.
Ordials
Arcordials ("The First of the primordials")
Arcomentals (The 'foreman' of the First world's Construction)
Prime Ordials (Primordials, "those anchored to the Prime Material")
Immortals (deities)
High God (Pantheonic Leader)
Greater god
Intermediate god
Lesser god
Celestials ('Minions of the Heavens')
Archons (Angels, Devas, and Guardinals, etc.)
Fiends (Devils, Daemons, and Demons, etc.)
Primal Spirits (Some of these can rise pretty damn high in power)
Elementals (including the Noble Dgen)
Modrons (not so much 'servants' as they are 'automated service' creatures - the 'maintenance-men' of the universe)
Exarchs (like Archfey, ascendant Mortals {Proxies}, and demipowers{Chosen})
Miscellaneous (creatures that serve gods but do not fit into the other categories, like beings from the Shadowfell, or Astral)
In the K-T material and RW Asian mythology, ALL non-prime material beings are expected to 'serve the gods', even the evil ones, hence my repurposing the term 'Celestials' to include Fiends and others. I just wanted a more fantasy-ish term than 'Outsiders' (that always rubbed me the wrong way, especially if you are playing in a Planescape setting - it doesn't actually make sense from their PoV).
The Divine Feminine (Tefnut, Infinity), Divine Masculine (Shu, Eternity), and the demiurge (Nous) would all be Supernals - aspects of 'The One' (Monad is not a name - its a concept; I am purposely NOT using any RW names for that). I suppose the Hindu concept of Prajapati would also be an aspect, in its Trimurti form, which brings me to...
Eternals - beings with insane amounts of power, but usually only in regards to its 'portfolios' (in fact, these would be the only beings above the immortal Tier that even have such a concept). These would include Brahma, Shiva, and Vishnu (which are really 'three faces' of an aspect of The ONE), and probably beings like the Living Tribunal (Marvel Comics). I'm considering putting both Ao and Io here, and maybe even the Lady of Pain (a 'fallen' Eternal?)
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Oct 2017 17:09:03 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2017 : 17:46:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Great list! I am assuming THAT ONE is the complete list? (containing ones not on the FRwiki?)
Yeah, that is the list of all primordials mentioned in 4e + the one that debuted in Storm's King Thunder (5e).
As for your question, Ao doesn't work for someone else? That means he cannot be in the highest tier. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2017 : 21:22:24
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Yes he does - thats why I separated the Supernals out of the Eternals.
I originally had them as an 'upper echelon' of the Eternals, but that didn't work out so well because of the Hindu pantheon (I could have fudged it, but its better the way I have it now). The Supernals, more than all the others (and EVERYTHING in the universe - even mortals - are just pieces of 'The ONE'), are just aspects of the Moradin. They can function independently, and do, but they are also still very much part of The Source. The further down the list you go, the more spiritually and mentally separated the beings become from that. In fact, most Immortals (deities) won't even accept that they are 'part of something greater'.
So, Ao still has to answer to 'that which sits on high', via one of its aspects (dependent upon the situation). Ao came into being the first time there was a disagreement among the Sidereals - he as the original 'Moderator of the Gods'. However, as lower tiers were created (in order to build the world/universe), he became much too busy keeping the lower echelons out of trouble (and still does, 'till this day). Thus, the Tribunal (unashamedly stolen from Marvel comics - The Living Tribunal) was created to handle the 'bigger issues' of the universe, as Ao once had.
Here is a great pic of Eternity (MY 'Divine Masculine'), Infinity (MY Divine Feminine), and the Living Tribunal (but you can't see his face, which is a shame). In MY cosmology, Infinity and Eternity are 'two sides of the same coin' (line taken right from Marvel comics), so they would be supernals - just aspects of the universe itself. The Tribunal would be a separate entity of its own - still part of the universe like the others, but functioning as an independent being. I used 'the Tribunal' in something I wrote a long time ago - Ao had to 'call him in' because the Seldarine (and other demi-human Gods) felt they didn't have to obey him during the Time of Troubles (because when you think about it, he may very well have overstepped his bounds with them - they are the most ancient of ancient powers, and he turned them mortal, for a time). They conceded the point, and provided him with a single Avatar, and then placed the rest of their essence under 'house arrest' within their own domains, until the crisis was concluded.
The Eternal tier is nifty in that it helps us cover all those things that fall WAY 'outside the rules' (not that any of these beings fall within the purview of a D&D session anyway). For example, I just make the Lady of Pain an eternal, and now I don't have to explain her. People can theorize she is a 'fallen' Eternal, but what does that mean, exactly? Maybe she is doing precisely what she was meant to be doing. In fact, 'Eternal' takes the place (mostly) of our old 'Overgod' designation. Its way 'higher up' than a god, and even higher up the food-chain than a primordial, but not necessarily more powerful than those (there are more types of 'power' than just physical power or energy).
I am going to have to add Metatron, 'the Voice of God', from Dogma to the list of Eternals, for no other reason than to pay homage to that excellent silly movie (my own concept of 'Dogma' came from there - its brilliant). Plus - Alan Friggin' Rickman!  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Oct 2017 21:26:38 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2017 : 03:23:53
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@Zeromaru: You were asking for more info on Draunn; here is all there is:
quote:
From Storm King's Thunder, pg.153
"Like her ancestors before her, Kayalithica believes that the stalactite allows her to commune with Skoraeus Stonebones, the god of stone giants. In truth, the Steinfang is part of a malevolent earth primordial named Draunn, which lies trapped somewhere deep beneath the Graypeak Mountains. The primordial sleeps most of the time, waking only on nights of the new moon. Other thanes who earlier allowed themselves to be corrupted by the Steinfang were held in check by King Hekaton, but with him out of the way, Kayalithica is free to cause the harm that her 'god' demands."
Kayalithica is an advanced (special) stone giant. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Oct 2017 03:25:20 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2017 : 05:16:40
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| So, he is one of the primordials who remained trapped in Toril... interesting. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2017 : 05:22:03
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| I guess now we finally know what the elves of Evereska have been guarding all these years. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Primordials -a list anywhere?
