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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 21:45:26
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This is a general book club discussion thread for asking questions about the book. If there are spoilers, mark your post as such--say, "SPOILERS FOR CHAPTER XX!" where XX is the chapter the question comes up.
The difference between this thread and the one in the novels section is that this is specifically a BOOK CLUB thread, where I assume you will have read at least part of the novel.
We might disperse into more threads at some point, but the book club is a little unwieldy for that at the moment.
Cheers
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Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 02:35:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
This is a general book club discussion thread for asking questions about the book. If there are spoilers, mark your post as such--say, "SPOILERS FOR CHAPTER XX!" where XX is the chapter the question comes up.
The difference between this thread and the one in the novels section is that this is specifically a BOOK CLUB thread, where I assume you will have read at least part of the novel.
We might disperse into more threads at some point, but the book club is a little unwieldy for that at the moment.
Cheers
Spoilers possible ch 1-3
I like the tone and pacing so far. Our old friend stealing the sword and arming her own "Shadowbane"...I was like wtf.....I need to re-read a bit I think! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 14:55:08
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SPOILERS CHAPTERS 1-3
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
I like the tone and pacing so far. Our old friend stealing the sword and arming her own "Shadowbane"...I was like wtf.....I need to re-read a bit I think!
Well, witnesses assume the Fox and Shadowbane are working together in that scene, but it should be clear that they aren't--or at least, they appear not to be eventually. Like when he attacks her.
But this book is full of intrigue. I wouldn't count that out!
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 18:28:03
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Spoilers Chap 1-6
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
SPOILERS CHAPTERS 1-3
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
I like the tone and pacing so far. Our old friend stealing the sword and arming her own "Shadowbane"...I was like wtf.....I need to re-read a bit I think!
Well, witnesses assume the Fox and Shadowbane are working together in that scene, but it should be clear that they aren't--or at least, they appear not to be eventually. Like when he attacks her.
But this book is full of intrigue. I wouldn't count that out!
Cheers
Like him mentioning his "master" had been teaching him shadowdance, but he preferred the style Vindacator was most suited to.
That leads to many thoughts! If Fox isnt the master..then who is? I think I know, but i'm not sure. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 05 Sep 2012 18:30:30 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 21:42:52
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Spoilers Chap 1-3
Man..I think I have a new favorite Realms character.
Yaeshl the Ripper....it took Shadowbane and Fox to fell him!
How did Fox's rapier render him unconscious(didnt Fox take his pulse and say she thought he'd make it?) without the tip touching him?
Hopefully we haven't seen the last of Yaeshl and Old Man Tay. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 05 Sep 2012 21:47:07 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 14:56:50
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Spoilers Chap 1-3
Man..I think I have a new favorite Realms character.
Yaeshl the Ripper....it took Shadowbane and Fox to fell him!
You liked that guy, did you? I wonder if that was intentional. 
quote:
How did Fox's rapier render him unconscious(didnt Fox take his pulse and say she thought he'd make it?) without the tip touching him?
In short, shadow magic.
In long, there's a particular power old school 4e assassins (the shadow-wielding sort, not the executioner build) that harms with the shadow of the blade, rather than the blade itself. It's called "Inescapable Blade." And that's what she used in this instance.
quote:
Hopefully we haven't seen the last of Yaeshl and Old Man Tay.
They're very minor characters (and might be dead after that scene), so I don't leave much room in the rest of the novel for them to show up again, but never say never!
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 16:48:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Spoilers Chap 1-3
Man..I think I have a new favorite Realms character.
Yaeshl the Ripper....it took Shadowbane and Fox to fell him!
You liked that guy, did you? I wonder if that was intentional.
Best think about it was when describing this character to my wife, i got to the barbed chain... she said eww....but her eyes said something different
quote:
How did Fox's rapier render him unconscious(didnt Fox take his pulse and say she thought he'd make it?) without the tip touching him?
In short, shadow magic.
In long, there's a particular power old school 4e assassins (the shadow-wielding sort, not the executioner build) that harms with the shadow of the blade, rather than the blade itself. It's called "Inescapable Blade." And that's what she used in this instance.
Thanks..I was thinking something like that, but not sure exactly how it would work...thanks!
quote:
Hopefully we haven't seen the last of Yaeshl and Old Man Tay.[/quote]They're very minor characters (and might be dead after that scene), so I don't leave much room in the rest of the novel for them to show up again, but never say never!
Cheers
[/quote]
Well one(or two) can always hope
P.S.....I didn't do the weird blue font thing....but it kinda fits for a book about Myrin (So mods can leave it ) |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 06 Sep 2012 16:50:12 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 16:52:33
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Spoilers Ch 24
A Dlardrageth....Fey'ri.....Lilten.....
damn I didn't see that one coming....if it was hinted at, it was well done. You kinda pulled that outta your shadow I think.
Now we have to watch you for shadowdance skills I guess?
I think I have known who the "new" shadowbane is for a while......but now I'm thinking that's what you want us to think |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 06 Sep 2012 16:53:34 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 18:27:12
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
P.S.....I didn't do the weird blue font thing....but it kinda fits for a book about Myrin (So mods can leave it)
There's a stray quote tag somewhere in the post. That's what's causing it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 20:17:35
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Spoilers Ch 24
damn I didn't see that one coming....if it was hinted at, it was well done. You kinda pulled that outta your shadow I think.
Now we have to watch you for shadowdance skills I guess?
It's been hinted at, indeed, from as early as Downshadow (and maybe "The Greater Treasure"). Also, if you have a DDI subscription, check out my Channel Divinity: Tymora article.
Lilten has been present in all three of my Shadowbane books so far, and he takes on a major role. But what about this marriage thing? Is that true, and how long has it been the case?
quote:
I think I have known who the "new" shadowbane is for a while......but now I'm thinking that's what you want us to think
I am kinda like that, aren't I?
Let me pull some crazy telepathy here. I think I know who you're thinking, and you're both right and wrong. You'll see what I mean.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 21:20:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Spoilers Ch 24
damn I didn't see that one coming....if it was hinted at, it was well done. You kinda pulled that outta your shadow I think.
Now we have to watch you for shadowdance skills I guess?
It's been hinted at, indeed, from as early as Downshadow (and maybe "The Greater Treasure"). Also, if you have a DDI subscription, check out my Channel Divinity: Tymora article.
Lilten has been present in all three of my Shadowbane books so far, and he takes on a major role. But what about this marriage thing? Is that true, and how long has it been the case?
quote:
I think I have known who the "new" shadowbane is for a while......but now I'm thinking that's what you want us to think
I am kinda like that, aren't I?
Let me pull some crazy telepathy here. I think I know who you're thinking, and you're both right and wrong. You'll see what I mean.
Cheers
I was right....then changed my mind to another which made me right again, but wrong about the first guess...then at the end I was only half wrong
Just to be safe Spoilers Again..whole book
About Fox and her new "shadow" Whats in it for whoever she makes her shadow? Can they communicate with her in anyway? It seems kinda one sided in her favor, especially when Gargan is "killed"....it seemed kinda selfish of her to do that to Brace. Unless it's just a shadow of the one who is her shadow? ..Oww my head hurts now, thanks Erik! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 01:25:45
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Oh don't do it Sage! You'll spoil the whole book.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 01:33:05
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
It's getting really hard for me to avoid reading this scroll...
Not posting in it should help. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 01:45:51
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Just to be safe Spoilers Again..whole book
About Fox and her new "shadow" Whats in it for whoever she makes her shadow? Can they communicate with her in anyway? It seems kinda one sided in her favor, especially when Gargan is "killed"....it seemed kinda selfish of her to do that to Brace. Unless it's just a shadow of the one who is her shadow? ..Oww my head hurts now, thanks Erik!
The shadowdancer's shadow bond comes straight out of the 3.5 shadowdancer prestige class. I haven't given it a whole lot of formal mechanical treatment in the book, but here are some general ways in which it works:
The shadow isn't the person in question, who has passed on to wherever that person was going to go. It's an undead creature--a modified shadow from the Monster Manual. It may have a sliver of the source creature's spirit in it, as it reflects some of the source person's thoughts and feelings.
Thematically, making a new shadow *is* sort of selfish on Ilira's part. It represents her hesitation to let go of people who are genuinely her friends. She's had very few of those in her long life, and fewer still since the Spellplague cursed her. It does give those people a chance to stay close to her and protect her, even if only as eternal, lifeless guardians.
The shadow and Ilira communicate on an empathic level. Not telepathy or actual speech (though Ilira has been known to curse at her shadow from time to time), but more like general feelings and emotions. Also, the shadow clearly influences Ilira's emotions at times as well, instilling a little of itself into her feelings and actions. (Just as the shadow is a shadow of Ilira, so is she a shadow of the shadow.)
The Gargan shadow was fiercely protective of Ilira and often seemed hesitant when she was crossing the line and acting with really hateful emotions. She became taciturn and maybe a little wiser when Gargan was her shadow. It remains to be seen how the new shadow will act or influence her: I suspect it will be more whimsical and make Ilira more talkative.
Also, this suggests another question entirely: what happened to her OWN shadow? Why doesn't she seem to have one of her own? Who has it?
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 02:43:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
It's getting really hard for me to avoid reading this scroll...
Not posting in it should help.
So that's why all the stickies are still around relegating this to page two....so Sage doesn't have to see it |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 02:58:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Just to be safe Spoilers Again..whole book
About Fox and her new "shadow" Whats in it for whoever she makes her shadow? Can they communicate with her in anyway? It seems kinda one sided in her favor, especially when Gargan is "killed"....it seemed kinda selfish of her to do that to Brace. Unless it's just a shadow of the one who is her shadow? ..Oww my head hurts now, thanks Erik!
The shadowdancer's shadow bond comes straight out of the 3.5 shadowdancer prestige class. I haven't given it a whole lot of formal mechanical treatment in the book, but here are some general ways in which it works:
The shadow isn't the person in question, who has passed on to wherever that person was going to go. It's an undead creature--a modified shadow from the Monster Manual. It may have a sliver of the source creature's spirit in it, as it reflects some of the source person's thoughts and feelings.
Thematically, making a new shadow *is* sort of selfish on Ilira's part. It represents her hesitation to let go of people who are genuinely her friends. She's had very few of those in her long life, and fewer still since the Spellplague cursed her. It does give those people a chance to stay close to her and protect her, even if only as eternal, lifeless guardians.
The shadow and Ilira communicate on an empathic level. Not telepathy or actual speech (though Ilira has been known to curse at her shadow from time to time), but more like general feelings and emotions. Also, the shadow clearly influences Ilira's emotions at times as well, instilling a little of itself into her feelings and actions. (Just as the shadow is a shadow of Ilira, so is she a shadow of the shadow.)
The Gargan shadow was fiercely protective of Ilira and often seemed hesitant when she was crossing the line and acting with really hateful emotions. She became taciturn and maybe a little wiser when Gargan was her shadow. It remains to be seen how the new shadow will act or influence her: I suspect it will be more whimsical and make Ilira more talkative.
Also, this suggests another question entirely: what happened to her OWN shadow? Why doesn't she seem to have one of her own? Who has it?
Cheers
Been wondering that since "shadow Gargan" appeared....has a few ideas, but none fit. I at first assumed she betrayed Erevan Ilisere and he took it as punishment......then not so much, but I keep coming back to that.
Hopefully Shadow Brace helps her be a bit less jaded and her and Kalen don't destroy each other and leave Myrin alone because of a simple misunderstanding. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 15:38:37
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Just to be safe Spoilers Again..whole book
Also, this suggests another question entirely: what happened to her OWN shadow? Why doesn't she seem to have one of her own? Who has it?
Been wondering that since "shadow Gargan" appeared....has a few ideas, but none fit. I at first assumed she betrayed Erevan Ilisere and he took it as punishment......then not so much, but I keep coming back to that.
Hmm . . . Darn it, now I want to write that story. Well, we'll see if this chapbook thing happens, eh?
quote:
Hopefully Shadow Brace helps her be a bit less jaded and her and Kalen don't destroy each other and leave Myrin alone because of a simple misunderstanding.
It is indeed a tragic misunderstanding, but I wanted to get across that the enmity between Ilira and Kalen is about more than Brace's death. It's a philosophical battle, it's about protecting Myrin (both sides trying to protect her from the other), and their own mutual attraction plays into it. Kalen is drawn to Ilira for the same reason he was drawn to Fayne--she represents this dark, ruthless, roguish side of him, free of responsibility or consequences.
Also, there was that pretty memorable kiss.
We'll see how this gets handled when the series continues. I have some plans (there's a word document on my computer called Shadowbane 4.doc), but we'll see.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 16:01:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Just to be safe Spoilers Again..whole book
Also, this suggests another question entirely: what happened to her OWN shadow? Why doesn't she seem to have one of her own? Who has it?
Been wondering that since "shadow Gargan" appeared....has a few ideas, but none fit. I at first assumed she betrayed Erevan Ilisere and he took it as punishment......then not so much, but I keep coming back to that.
Hmm . . . Darn it, now I want to write that story. Well, we'll see if this chapbook thing happens, eh?
I know....so much room to go so many directions for that isn't there? I assumed that was your plan...(maybe you fooled yourself?)I hope you do write that story and many other Fox chapbooks....so please do. Ill settle for a nice wordy dedication
quote:
Hopefully Shadow Brace helps her be a bit less jaded and her and Kalen don't destroy each other and leave Myrin alone because of a simple misunderstanding.
quote:
It is indeed a tragic misunderstanding, but I wanted to get across that the enmity between Ilira and Kalen is about more than Brace's death. It's a philosophical battle, it's about protecting Myrin (both sides trying to protect her from the other), and their own mutual attraction plays into it. Kalen is drawn to Ilira for the same reason he was drawn to Fayne--she represents this dark, ruthless, roguish side of him, free of responsibility or consequences.
Also, there was that pretty memorable kiss.
We'll see how this gets handled when the series continues. I have some plans (there's a word document on my computer called Shadowbane 4.doc), but we'll see.
Cheers
That was quite a kiss....now you have me thinking, if Vindacator is shared between the three aspects of the threefold god(or is it 4fourfold with Hoar...or did Hoar really displace one and it a realligned threefold...wow your making my head hurt again Erik!) why wouldn't each aspect of Kalen have a different match....as well as Ilira and Myrin's dual natures....it's kind of like a three-sided duallity thing they have going on together...each side(Kalen, Myrin, Ilira) could complete half of the other two sides. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 07 Sep 2012 16:20:17 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 16:18:39
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Just to be safe Spoilers Again..whole book
That was quite a kiss....now you have me thinking, if Vindacator is shared between the three aspects of the threefold god ...... why wouldn't each aspect of Kalen have a different match....as well as Ilira and Myrin's dual natures....ists kins like a three-sided duallity thing they have going on together...each side(Kalen, Myrin, Ilira) could complete half of the other two sides.
What makes you think that isn't already the case?
I could say more, but I really don't want to spoil anything. Only that you're on the right track.
I will point out that Ilira (CN) and Myrin (LG) are supposed to appeal to opposite sides of Kalen's personality--the ruthless neutral rogue vs. the optimistic good crusader for justice.
quote:
(or is it 4fourfold with Hoar...or did Hoar really displace one and it a realligned threefold...wow your making my head hurt again Erik!)
Do you want what Shadowbane believes, what Vengeance believes, what Mercy believes, or the truth?
This is seriously a question you *should* be asking yourself at the end of the story. Answers to come, when I write the sequel.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 07 Sep 2012 17:24:53 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 16:26:47
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Yeah...I'm with you...I just didnt want to go to far and make a declartion that you had to ignore or could spoil anything for anyone....
I think you are handling it very well...very complex out of the ordinary relationship....or is it when you think of it? I mean besides Jerry McGuire and his lady....how many people are totally completed in everyway by just one person....so if your looking to provoke deep thoughts....Well played Sir!
Well now, future news of another Shadowbane novel will be a hard wait indeed. With these three characters (oh yeah and Yaeshl), you have made me enjoy them as much as you made me hate Meris. That's damn fine writing if you ask me. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 20:38:40
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And I want the truth about that last bit....but if you give us the straight truth, will we assume your just messin' with us and not believe?
And because I have had more than one friend ask me where to find your other "free" stories regarding Shadowbane:
http://erikscottdebie.com/exclusive-web-content-free/ |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 07 Sep 2012 20:41:34 |
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Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe
181 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2012 : 11:20:09
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Erik, I have read nearly all your books and I just sped through EoJ on the kobo. I have to say that while I absolutely loved it, I am beginning to dislike Myrin more and more. Bringing Twilight and Kalen together in one novel is just so epic, and I love how you tie all your loose ends together. (SPOILERS WHOLE BOOK)
The Uncle Nemesis and Neveran reveals were incredible but is Kiren who we think he is or is this even more obfuscation? Also I really didn't like how Kalen got tagged for Brace's murder at the end, and how Myrin, despite knowing that Kalen would never be perpetrate such a crime, went along with it =/. It felt kinda filmsy. Also what was so wrong with what Kalen did to Vaelis, or was it his willingness to execute Vaelis and not grant mercy which turned Rhett against him? And how could you end it on a cliffhanger????!!!! That was cruel! Now I have to wait Helm knows how many months before the new Shadowbane novel comes out =(! It doesn't help that Mr Kemp delayed Godborn so it could be part of the sundering.
Also could you perhaps shed some light on the Hoar angle. I understand that the three-fold God is supposed to represent Helm, Tyr and Torm. How did an exarch of Bane get mixed up in all of this? Or will this be expanded upon in your next novel (if it is I will curse you in my sleep till it comes out)[I kid, I kid ..... I think]
SPOILERS END |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2012 : 16:17:20
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Hi Aes Tryl,
I shall endeavor to say what I can on these questions.
SPOILERS FOR THE WHOLE NOVEL and for the PREVIOUS NOVEL, SHADOWBANE
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Originally posted by Aes Tryl
The Uncle Nemesis and Neveran reveals were incredible but is Kiren who we think he is or is this even more obfuscation?
That depends who you think he is.
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Also I really didn't like how Kalen got tagged for Brace's murder at the end, and how Myrin, despite knowing that Kalen would never be perpetrate such a crime, went along with it =/. It felt kinda filmsy.
The only one who really believes Kalen killed Brace is Ilira. Myrin knows him and knows he wouldn't do such a thing--or at least she thinks he does. The point here is that Kalen has got darker and darker over the last couple books, and it finally reaches a point where Myrin can't just automatically assume good will on his part. As Shadowbane 4 will make clear (when I write it), Ilira is convinced Kalen killed Brace, but Myrin harbors great doubts about it and can't quite bring herself to believe her dear friend would have turned so evil.
I recommend you not be too hard on Myrin. She's had a trying series of experiences, and she's been fighting with Kalen the whole book. Not automatically going to his defense was sort of an assertion of her own will and actualization as a character. She's not Kalen's sidekick or just his token love interest. She has her own deal, her own motivations, and picks her own path. Is it a mistake that she breaks with Kalen? From what we know, sure--absolutely. But that doesn't make her a bad person.
Also, a big part of her actions at the end of the book are out of a need to care for and support Ilira. Basically, that event forces her to pick sides, and she sticks with Ilira out of loyalty to her new friend, who has been so good to her throughout the novel. Reconciling Kalen and Ilira is a major motivation for Myrin going forward.
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Also what was so wrong with what Kalen did to Vaelis, or was it his willingness to execute Vaelis and not grant mercy which turned Rhett against him?
The way I think of it, Kalen is the wielder of awesome divine power, which he loosed against Vengeance. When he did it earlier against Scour (see Shadowbane), that was entirely justified: it was him against this demonic monster for the fate of the region, if not eventually the world. But when he turns the full weight of that divine strength against a mere mortal man, then he stops being a hero and becomes more like the monster himself. Kalen glimpses something deep and dark inside of himself, and it frightens him.
Picture this Star Wars analogy: Obi-Wan Kenobi has trained Anakin Skywalker (see Episode II), who has succumbed to the dark side and (presumably) died through a terrible error of judgment on Obi-Wan's part (see Episode III). Surprisingly, Obi-Wan faces Anakin again (this time as Darth Vader), and what does he do? He can't kill his old apprentice, so he sacrifices himself to save his friends and to demonstrate to Anakin the strength of the light side (see Episode IV). This is an early step on Vader's path to redemption.
Now what if Obi-Wan's reaction were not to try to *save* Anakin but merely to put him down like a dog, mercilessly maiming and torturing him through sheer superiority with the Force? This may be the right thing to do (Darth Vader is clearly a villain who has participated in torture, murder, and even genocide--see Alderaan), but what does it tell us about Obi-Wan? It's him giving into his anger, and giving into the dark side.
Go back to Kalen vs. Vaelis, and you see the same thing: a master faced with a now-evil apprentice. But instead of martyring himself to good, Kalen ruthlessly attacks Vengeance, maims him, and takes real pleasure in doing it. This isn't justice or duty--it's vengeance. This isn't Kalen channeling Helm--this is Kalen channeling HOAR. Vaelis knows it, Kalen knows it, and Rhett knows it.
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And how could you end it on a cliffhanger????!!!!
Well, the story is ongoing, so ending on a cliffhanger just goes with the territory. As Ed says, every time you close a door, open a couple more.
Also, let me just say, it could be worse. It's less a cliffhanger and more of a "leave threads for a sequel" sort of ending. It would have been a cliffhanger if I'd left you not knowing if Kalen was alive or dead at the end.
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That was cruel! Now I have to wait Helm knows how many months before the new Shadowbane novel comes out =(!
I currently have no next novel in contract with WotC, so who knows? If you want to read the next chapter in the story, I highly suggest you send the request to WotC, write an Amazon review, talk up the story to your friends, and keep talking about it on the boards.
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It doesn't help that Mr Kemp delayed Godborn so it could be part of the sundering.
Paul didn't have anything to do with that. It wasn't his decision to delay Godborn--that was all WotC--and WotC chose to tie it into the Sundering, which by all accounts has enhanced the story. Good things come to those who wait.
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Also could you perhaps shed some light on the Hoar angle. I understand that the three-fold God is supposed to represent Helm, Tyr and Torm. How did an exarch of Bane get mixed up in all of this? Or will this be expanded upon in your next novel (if it is I will curse you in my sleep till it comes out)
Oh, it certainly will. But here's some more:
Basically, there has to be an actual living god that grants divine powers to those who worship the Threefold God, and for the series so far, it's been assumed that that's Torm. Vengeance at least contends that the Threefold God isn't really Helm, Tyr, and Torm, but rather Helm, Tyr, and Hoar, the god of vengeance (not justice). Kalen's experiences seem to indicate that his power is indeed tinged with vengeance, particularly when he *wins* against Vengeance.
He's supposed to be left at the end of the novel in a crisis of faith, which is sort of a thing with him. In Downshadow, the sudden loss (and eventual return) of his paladin powers was a crisis of faith. In Shadowbane, it was more gradual--his powers eroding throughout the book, but he finally rediscovers his purpose and direction and unlocks a great power within himself. Eye of Justice shows him taking that too far, and facing the terrible consequences of using his powers for evil.
END SPOILERS
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Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe
181 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2012 : 17:16:05
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Awesome thanks for the detailed reply Erik!! Hmmm I should do a slower, more careful read of EoJ.
Regarding Myrin, I understand she and Kalen keep fighting and Twilight seems to really appeal to her, but the last novel was just Kalen getting smashed in the face repeatedly again and again, all for her sake. That she "ditches" (I know she doesn't but it sure seems that way sometimes) Kalen and her general treatment of him kinda turns me off (I know she is going through a lot of trying experiences, but Kalen has gone through much of the same and he doesn't treat her much different). I don't think she is a bad person, but it seems like she is a teenager living in a very complex and convoluted world which she can't or refuses to see. It's exasperating not damning =P.
True, if I didn't know Kalen's status I would tear my hair out haha! And how can WoTC not give you a novel contract =(. Kalen is the only 4ed forgotten realms character that I've really fallen in love with (besides richard lee byers characters but they were transition characters so not counted =P). I have already talked up your novels to interested friends. But I'm not used to writing reviews haha. NOOOOO!!!! The story of Dren must continue =(. And how do I send a request to WoTC >=)?
Ah thanks for expounding on the 3-fold God and the relation between Rhett, Kalen and Vaelis. Yeah I kinda see how the "oh no, I became what I fought against" theme would horrify Kalen, or any paladin for that matter.
Oh and regarding Godborn, I know all about waiting. I've been waiting for Godborn since it was first announced and I think that was in 2007, so yes, I'm like a starving bear when it comes to Godborn. The idea of you not getting a next novel contract and the agony of waiting for Godborn for yet another year sends me into withdrawal spasms =(. Oh well at least the brimstone angels sequel gets released at the end of this year. But I hunger . . . for my preciousssssss.
Also can't wait for some actual illira and kalen conversations, it will be the stuff of legends! Thanks once again for the wonderful EoJ. I honestly enjoyed this the most out of all the Shadowbane novels. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2012 : 18:14:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Aes Tryl
Awesome thanks for the detailed reply Erik!! Hmmm I should do a slower, more careful read of EoJ.
To clarify, that's not what I'm saying you should do, but hey, if you want to read it again, it's not like I'm going to advise against it.
SPOILERS ABOUND, MOSTLY for SHADOWBANE (book 2)
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Regarding Myrin, I understand she and Kalen keep fighting and Twilight seems to really appeal to her, but the last novel was just Kalen getting smashed in the face repeatedly again and again, all for her sake.
Was it? Or was it more of Kalen trying to control her and make her do things his way. Sure, *he* thinks he was protecting her all the time, but if you look at it from her perspective, Kalen's kind of stifling her. He refused to let her try to help Luskan, he repeatedly tried to get her out of the city against her will (including kidnapping her when she was drunk), etc. Not to mention that in Eye of Justice, Kalen repeatedly distrusts her, disapproves of her friends, questions her judgment, and occasionally treats her like an inferior (including when he insulted her rather viciously just after she met Ilira).
Not to mention that Kalen is really scared of his feelings for her, which is sort of why he does that.
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That she "ditches" (I know she doesn't but it sure seems that way sometimes) Kalen and her general treatment of him kinda turns me off (I know she is going through a lot of trying experiences, but Kalen has gone through much of the same and he doesn't treat her much different). I don't think she is a bad person, but it seems like she is a teenager living in a very complex and convoluted world which she can't or refuses to see. It's exasperating not damning =P.
You're definitely seeing things from Kalen's perspective. And yes, he has gone through a lot of trying experiences, and he doesn't treat her much differently, and that's the point.
Kalen spent all of Downshadow, all of Shadowbane, and most of Eye of Justice pushing Myrin away, and it really shouldn't be a surprise that eventually she chooses someone else. Which is not to say that she doesn't have extremely strong feelings for him and wish things were different, but it just isn't ok that he gets to push her around and always be right (when of course he isn't).
This is all purposeful. Basically, what I'm going for is that these are two adult characters who have different goals and methods. One isn't the knight in shining armor for the other, nor is one the damsel in distress. Myrin sort of *was* the damsel in distress once upon a time (Downshadow), but she's evolving beyond that into her own character. What Kalen really needs to do is treat her like the equal she is, and then they can resolve their issues. Kalen already *thinks* of her as an equal--it's just a matter of that translating into his actions.
My main goal is that I don't want either of them to seem to "deserve" the other, as though people are some sort of prize to be won (which is hugely prevalent in all fantasy). They have to *earn* the chance to be together, and they're not quite there yet.
[b]NOTE:[b] This is totally not me defending my work--obviously, you have your opinion, and you're SUPPOSED to--but just me explaining what I'm going for. If you're more on Kalen's side than Myrin's side, that's great! No worries! I'm just elucidating my attempts to present these characters as individuals with complex problems, which lend themselves to being on either side.
Also, to clarify, don't think that Myrin "ditching" Kalen indicates that she has any less feeling for him than she ever has had, and vice versa. If anything, Myrin is just pushing Kalen away the same way he's been pushing her away for three books now. It's as much his choices as hers (if not more so) that are keeping them apart--if they want to be together, they have to *choose* to be together.
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And how do I send a request to WoTC >=)?
Check out their forums: http://community.wizards.com/go/forum/view/75882/136026/forgotten_realms
Also the bookclub is a good place to make your voice heard by the book department (Nina Hess is one of the editors): http://community.wizards.com/bookclub
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Ah thanks for expounding on the 3-fold God and the relation between Rhett, Kalen and Vaelis. Yeah I kinda see how the "oh no, I became what I fought against" theme would horrify Kalen, or any paladin for that matter.
Indeed, that's what I was going for.
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Also can't wait for some actual illira and kalen conversations, it will be the stuff of legends!
Oh, there are plans. Don't you worry.
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Thanks once again for the wonderful EoJ. I honestly enjoyed this the most out of all the Shadowbane novels.
Great to hear it. I'm glad you enjoyed the book, and I hope that the next one (if/when I get to write it) will please you just as much.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2012 : 04:43:26
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Mr. De Bie, you have really outdone yourself with this trilogy. I remember reading that you wanted to create a character who would be as iconic as Drizzt, Elminster, or Erevis Cale. Well, I think you're doing that. I will highlight some things I really liked, and then I have a few questions.
Strong Points
1. Characters - I like them all. You remind me a lot of RAS or Elaine in the way I feel about your characters. I really enjoy them all so much that I'm not overly concerned with who "wins". Although, I am dying to know who wins that game of coroniir in the end.
2. Settings - You did a great job contrasting the beauty of Waterdeep vs. the filth of Downshadow in the 1st book. Your depiction is Luskan in the 2nd book made it seem like a place Cyric would enjoy, which I gather was your point. (oh, and Sithe made that novel all by her lonesome) Finally, with Westgate, you really made me love the city enough to want to visit, but also be scared of what might happen to me if I did.
3. Gods - Your series deals with the gods a lot, in an indirect way. Gods are so impossible to depict in a way that will please all the fans, so I think this is a great way to go. You show how hard it is in FR to faithfully follow a god(dess), because what they want can seem so unclear.
Questions
SPOILERS
SPOILERS
SPOILERS
#1 - You make it clear that Lilten is Sarya's little brother. If I recall the Last Mythal series right, Sarya was all high and mighty because her father was a balor. Does it follow that Lilten's father is that same balor? There are many references to him having a hot touch, or a hot kiss, or feeling the old fire rising in him. However, I don't recall Sarya having any demonic powers outside of her sorcery. I almost wonder if he has found a way to unlock the full power of a balor.
#2 - I recall that Tyr and Bane once fought over Hoar. Does Hoar granting spells in Helm's name represent an attempt to escape Bane's rule and become more neutral, or even good?
#3 - How on earth was Vaelis not dead, when his death is what caused the crack in the sword?
#4 - Is Kirenkirsalai really serving Shar, or his own ends? He seems to dearly love Myrin and want her back, but if she truly holds a vestige of Mystra, his goddess Shar will want her dead. I'm guessing that this is how Shar has been blocking Mystra's resurrection all these years, by sending her minions to kill any mortal that Mystra may have hidden a piece of her divine essence in.
#5 - I noticed that when Kirensirsalai threatened Fayne, Lilten uttered a prayer to Erevan Ilesere, describing himself as a wayward servant, I think. Why not pray to Beshaba?
#6 - Is Myrin meant to be bisexual, or just attracted to Ilira because of her spellscar?
#7 - Does the conclusion of your saga depend on what WOTC does with 5E, or do you have your own goals in mind? |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2012 : 08:00:15
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Hail, Lilianviaten (such an honor)!
I'm very glad you enjoyed. Such glowing words, and great questions! I would like to invite you to post a review on Amazon, sir. The more reviews my work gets, the more likely it is to sell, and thus the more likely it will continue!
Also, come find me on Facebook if you're so inclined: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Erik-Scott-de-Bie/86237599006
SPOILERS
SPOILERS
SPOILERS
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
#1 - You make it clear that Lilten is Sarya's little brother. If I recall the Last Mythal series right, Sarya was all high and mighty because her father was a balor. Does it follow that Lilten's father is that same balor? There are many references to him having a hot touch, or a hot kiss, or feeling the old fire rising in him. However, I don't recall Sarya having any demonic powers outside of her sorcery. I almost wonder if he has found a way to unlock the full power of a balor.
Lilten does indeed consider Sarya his "older sister" (or at least he says so there), though the exact nature of their relation is still not clear. They may not have the same set of parents but may be only half siblings, or they may not share a parent at all. I haven't yet revealed that.
But you are correct in your assertion that he does seem to have some kind of inner fire. Sarya did indeed have powers outsider her sorcery related to her demonic heritage, according to her appearance in Cloak and Dagger. Her actual depiction in the Last Mythal trilogy may or may not have made use of these powers (I don't recall at the moment).
Lilten will be revealed one of these days. We'll see.
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#2 - I recall that Tyr and Bane once fought over Hoar. Does Hoar granting spells in Helm's name represent an attempt to escape Bane's rule and become more neutral, or even good?
That's a very optimistic way of looking at it. Vengeance and Shadowbane both interpret Hoar's influence in a considerably darker way--that he has subsumed and perverted the ways of justice.
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#3 - How on earth was Vaelis not dead, when his death is what caused the crack in the sword?
Ah, but was it actually his death that caused the crack in the sword? The sword cracked along with Kalen's heart, which happened when Kalen *thought* Vaelis was dead. Whether Vaelis actually was dead is another question.
Also, even if he did die, there *is* resurrection magic in the world.
Also, remember who/what Vaelis serves in EoJ.
There are plenty of ways to look at it, but if you want what really happened (pending any contrary reveal): Vaelis was mortally wounded, but Kirenkirsalai whisked him away on the brink of death to use him for a greater purpose later on. Kire has "enhanced" Vaelis the same way vampires did so in Westgate before the fall of the Night Masks. If this were a 3.5 game, Vaelis would be a Night Mask Deathbringer (see Champions of Ruin).
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#4 - Is Kirenkirsalai really serving Shar, or his own ends? He seems to dearly love Myrin and want her back, but if she truly holds a vestige of Mystra, his goddess Shar will want her dead. I'm guessing that this is how Shar has been blocking Mystra's resurrection all these years, by sending her minions to kill any mortal that Mystra may have hidden a piece of her divine essence in.
Mystra, eh? What makes you think Kirenkirsalai "loves" her?
Great theory, though. Were I you, I would not abandon that line of thinking.
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#5 - I noticed that when Kirensirsalai threatened Fayne, Lilten uttered a prayer to Erevan Ilesere, describing himself as a wayward servant, I think. Why not pray to Beshaba?
He referred to himself as a "lapsed servant," in fact.
Most people in the Realms pray to many deities--a priest of Torm might offer a prayer to Tempus when heading off to war or to Sune to bless courting lovers. A body is as likely to pray to Tymora or Beshaba to bless someone with good luck--either to have Tymora smile or Beshaba turn away from an effort. As for why Lilten prays to Erevan at this moment, perhaps it's because a prayer to Erevan for aid is much more appropriate in this case than a prayer to Beshaba NOT to hurt Ilira. It could be irony. Also, he's a complex man with complex loyalties--perhaps this is an indication he hasn't entirely abandoned his former patron?
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#6 - Is Myrin meant to be bisexual, or just attracted to Ilira because of her spellscar?
Yes and no. There's clearly some sexual tension between them--we'll see where that goes. "Bisexual" as a label doesn't really exist in the Realms. People in the Realms are much more open to sexual expression of various kinds without being rigidly defined in particular groups. That said, yes, there's some queer business going on in this story, and I wouldn't be surprised to see Myrin and Ilira's relationship deepen. Part of that is attraction, and part of that is that eventually Myrin is the first non-shadovar person in a century that Ilira can actually touch without hurting.
Their spellscars are indeed a connection between them, but it's mostly Myrin's scar that attracts other scarred people (it does the same thing to Kalen). She isn't necessarily drawn to them in the same way.
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#7 - Does the conclusion of your saga depend on what WOTC does with 5E, or do you have your own goals in mind?
Yes and yes. WotC's direction has already shaped my story, but I do have an endgame planned. We'll see how things shake out.
And, of course, there's no guarantee at the moment there will even be more Shadowbane books. If you're invested in the story and really want to see it continue, talk it up, tell your friends, post reviews online (particularly on Amazon), and send your feedback to WotC.
Cheers
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Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2012 : 15:27:55
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I will certainly write you a top notch Amazon review, sir. I very much appreciate your answers, but now I have even more questions.
SPOILERS
SPOILERS
SPOILERS
#1 - Have you and Ed coordinated at all on your storylines? The book details Manshoon's takeover of the Night Masks and alludes to his current adventures in Cormyr. Also, with what appears to be the interaction of Shar and Mystra, albeit indirectly, I figured you guys might have discussed that.
#2 - What exactly did Halaster do to Myrin? Ilira assures her that she's a real person, and not a construct of any sort. But Fayne assured her in Downshadow that she is a goddess. Lilten and Kirenkirsalai seem to be the only ones who really know what she is.
#3 - Why do so many servants of Shar appear to be working at cross ends? Kirenkirsalai worships Shar and wants to capture Myrin. Hessar, despite being a somewhat flippant servant, at least worked for Shar at some point. He wants to capture Myrin also. Ilira vigorously opposes them, despite being a servant of Netheril (she doesn't really appear to worship Shar though; doesn't she worship Erevan Ilesere?). In Shadowbane, Sithe worshipped Shar, but seemed to like and respect Myrin. Finally, the tavern girl in Downshadow mentions that the monastery where Rath was trained was dedicated to entropy or something like that. It definitely sounded Sharran, but he worked for Lilten and did not seem to want to hurt Myrin. Unlike the others, he was also oblivious to what makes her so special. Does he actually worship Shar? And which of these people actually work as Shar's servants, as opposed to paying lip service while doing their own thing?
Btw, I really enjoy that about your work. Your portrayal of the gods is as realistic as it gets. Eden and Lilten were working at cross ends and both thought Beshaba supported them. Kalen has no idea who he's actually worshipping/receiving powers from. Vaelis, Kalen, and Rhett are all chosen by the same sword. Besides the confusion of trying to carry out a god's will without knowing what that is, there is also the theme of the "lapsed servant". Shar would have hated how Sithe helped Kalen regain his confidence and find greater favor with his god. Lilten is a turncloak. I don't know if Rath turned his back on his goddess, but he killed his whole monastery. Hessar seemed to have betrayed Shar's worship to some degree, by his own admission. In real life, even if you dedicate yourself to a set of ideals, sometimes you do change your mind about what you believed, and sometimes you find it hard to live up to your own ideals. So, great job portrayed the real difficulties of living your life by a strict code.
#4 - Is anyone in this series beyond redemption? Fayne was portrayed as cold hearted in Downshadow, but there just might be help for her yet. Ilira seems cold, but that's more of an artificial hardness to keep people at bay. I would say that Lilten and Kirenkirsalai are the only ones who are pure evil. Maybe Rath, but he strikes me as more like Artemis Entreri. He hates himself and thinks that bringing misery to others will ease his pain. But old Artemis is coming around, and even Erevis Cale found redemption, so I will hold out hope for him.
#4 - Do Lilten and Kirenkirsalai play this game of wit out of habit for their past friendship/rivalry? Or are they, like archwizards, afriad that a clash between them might bring way too much attention and end in mutual destruction? (due to their great personal power). Vampire Lords aren't as mighty as archwizards, but I'm unaware if Kirenkirsalai has powers given to him by Shar also.
#5 - Finally, wasn't Cythara a cultist of Graz'zt? I think Graz'zt could possibly be Lilten's father. I considered Demogorgon too, since one of his priests kidnapped Ilira, but I think if Demogorgon was his father, Lilten would probably be bipolar. He's very charming and debonair, in a way that reminds me of Graz'zt. |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2012 : 17:30:43
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I always assumed Rath was a Monk of the Long Death, or part of a monastic order that stemmed from the Monks of the Long Death.
Also, I don't view Lilten as much "evil" as I do "cold and calculating." |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
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He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
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Edited by - Hawkins on 28 Sep 2012 17:31:52 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2012 : 18:54:14
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Answers below:
SPOILERS
SPOILERS
SPOILERS
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
#1 - Have you and Ed coordinated at all on your storylines? The book details Manshoon's takeover of the Night Masks and alludes to his current adventures in Cormyr. Also, with what appears to be the interaction of Shar and Mystra, albeit indirectly, I figured you guys might have discussed that.
I have Ed's personal email and he and I have discussed numerous matters related to Shadowbane on occasion. In particular, Myrin and her significance in the greater picture. So yes, there are plans swirling around.
My technique of writing in the Realms actively puts in references to other works in the setting--for instance, the assortment of chapbooks in Downshadow, the discussion of the Five Captains and the history of Luskan in Shadowbane, the Mask Dance in the "Heir of Shadowbane" e-story (which you should read if you haven't!), or a discussion of the Night Masks in Westgate, etc. Elaine actually wrote a piece of poetry I attributed to Danilo Thann in Downshadow. Some of that comes from working with other authors directly, and some of it is just admiration of their work.
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#2 - What exactly did Halaster do to Myrin? Ilira assures her that she's a real person, and not a construct of any sort. But Fayne assured her in Downshadow that she is a goddess. Lilten and Kirenkirsalai seem to be the only ones who really know what she is.
This hasn't been revealed/sorted out yet, so I'll tip-toe around the issue. Fayne *joked* with Myrin that she was a goddess or--more accurately--had part of a goddess in her. Myrin *is* a real person (as confirmed by the fact that she had an early life, even if she doesn't remember it). Halaster was somehow involved in her early life, but not in the way it might seem.
And I would go out on a limb to say that while Kire and Lilten (and now Ilira and Myrin herself) all know WHO Myrin is, only Lilten actually knows WHAT she is.
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#3 - Why do so many servants of Shar appear to be working at cross ends?
For exactly the reasons you express. In the Realms, everyone knows that the gods exist, everyone worships the gods, and everyone thinks they know what the gods want (but no one really does except the gods). There are lots of ways of serving them, and mortals are constantly grinding against each other in their zeal to serve the ends of the same gods. Let's see if we can't pase some of these loyalties.
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Kirenkirsalai worships Shar and wants to capture Myrin.
Kire doesn't really do more than pay lip service to Shar, if that. He's out for himself and is pursuing Myrin for his own ends.
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Hessar, despite being a somewhat flippant servant, at least worked for Shar at some point. He wants to capture Myrin also.
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Hessar seemed to have betrayed Shar's worship to some degree, by his own admission.
Hessar is a tough nut to crack, but it's true, his loyalties are to himself first, Shar second, Netheril third. He isn't really all that interested in Myrin--his main priority is serving (or at least appearing to serve) Kirenkirsalai. He ultimately tries to kill Myrin in order to keep Kire from getting what he wants, and also because he really, really hates her for humiliating him. He does have a history with Ilira, presumably from when (he claims) she served Netheril. See below!
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Ilira vigorously opposes them, despite being a servant of Netheril (she doesn't really appear to worship Shar though; doesn't she worship Erevan Ilesere?).
Ilira's past hasn't been revealed, but it has been CLAIMED that she used to be a servant of Shar--specifically, an assassin called Shadowfox. This would have been during the quiet century, which was *after* Ilira served Erevan actively as a divine seeker. This may or may not be true.
I will say that a particularly dark tragedy did happen in Ilira's past, ending her adventuring career and *perhaps* pushing her into Shar's arms for a time. But that's a story for another time.
On this question, a particularly important moment is Lilten and Ilira's interaction wherein he says to her "I am hardly the only one who has betrayed the Fey Trickster" (a reference to Erevan) and indicates her tattoo, and then that "One might say that my betrayal is the lesser offense."
The implication here is that Ilira turned her back on Erevan just like Lilten did, only that her betrayal is much worse.
Ilira never confirms that she worked for Netheril, worshipped Shar, or turned her back on Erevan--all of that is just rumor from the other characters. Time will tell.
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In Shadowbane, Sithe worshipped Shar, but seemed to like and respect Myrin.
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Shar would have hated how Sithe helped Kalen regain his confidence and find greater favor with his god.
I didn't get into Sithe's faith too much, but she did indeed worship Shar in the past. It's unclear whether in the novel she's still an active follower of Shar, though indeed, her actions both seem to confirm and deny. So what do you think is the truth? Is she a lapsed servant looking for some kind of redemption by training Kalen, or is she an active priestess serving Shar's best interests by molding him into a destroyer?
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Finally, the tavern girl in Downshadow mentions that the monastery where Rath was trained was dedicated to entropy or something like that. It definitely sounded Sharran, but he worked for Lilten and did not seem to want to hurt Myrin. Unlike the others, he was also oblivious to what makes her so special. Does he actually worship Shar?
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I don't know if Rath turned his back on his goddess, but he killed his whole monastery.
I hope to reveal more about this one day, but generally speaking, Rath is not a terribly religious person. He believes in the gods, sure, but has nothing but contempt for them, as evidenced by his discussion with the dwarves in Downshadow. His monastery did indeed have something to do with Shar, but I'll save that for a future novel.
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And which of these people actually work as Shar's servants, as opposed to paying lip service while doing their own thing?
Ironically, Hessar is probably the most reverent servant of Shar. Sithe and Rath both serve Shar's ends, but their path is decidedly more spiritual than religious. Kire uses shadowdancing powers, but he is not religious. Ilira doesn't serve Shar any more, if she ever actually did.
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Btw, I really enjoy that about your work. Your portrayal of the gods is as realistic as it gets. Eden and Lilten were working at cross ends and both thought Beshaba supported them. Kalen has no idea who he's actually worshipping/receiving powers from. Vaelis, Kalen, and Rhett are all chosen by the same sword. Besides the confusion of trying to carry out a god's will without knowing what that is, there is also the theme of the "lapsed servant".
Glad you like how I handle faith. Sure, the gods of the Realms are real and concrete, but that doesn't mean that mortals understand them any better than we understand religious figures/concepts in our own world. I want to get away from the concept that "everyone knows" a god values/works for XXXXX . . . or more accurately, sometimes what "everyone knows" isn't quite correct.
And I wouldn't say Kalen has "no idea" about what deity he serves. He definitely believes he is following the Threefold God generally, Helm specifically. And Vengeance is definitely following Hoar, and Mercy definitely following Tyr. Vindicator just isn't necessarily specific to any particular deity. It's a tool that can be used for good or for evil.
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In real life, even if you dedicate yourself to a set of ideals, sometimes you do change your mind about what you believed, and sometimes you find it hard to live up to your own ideals. So, great job portrayed the real difficulties of living your life by a strict code.
Very much so. And thanks!
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#4 - Is anyone in this series beyond redemption? Fayne was portrayed as cold hearted in Downshadow, but there just might be help for her yet. Ilira seems cold, but that's more of an artificial hardness to keep people at bay. I would say that Lilten and Kirenkirsalai are the only ones who are pure evil.
I don't believe in "pure good" or "pure evil." I write in shades of gray. Heroes shouldn't do good just because it's good, and villains shouldn't do evil for its own sake. Every character has (sometimes noble, sometimes nefarious) reasons for doing what he or she does--it's the character's *actions* that are good or evil.
This vision sort of fits in with the work of such writers as George R.R. Martin or one of my good friends, Paul S. Kemp (whose Erevis Cale books are a masterclass in shades of gray).
So no, no characters in the series are beyond redemption. Some of them are absolutely not interested in redemption--in fact, they don't believe they need such a thing, because they are so convinced they're doing the right thing. For instance, Fayne is driven to have justice (or is it vengeance?) on Ilira for killing her mother (which Ilira definitely did), and she believes that Ilira is a far worse monster than she could ever be.
Kire is probably the closest you get to "pure evil," but he has the added hindrance of being a monster, rather than a humanoid character. He's a vampire, with all the emotional baggage and "heart of darkness" that goes along with that. I tend to write vampires as ruthless destructive monsters, incapable of human empathy or feeling. (No sparkly vamps here!)
As for Lilten, Hawkins has the right of it--"cold and calculating" is my intention. And Lilten has a motivation for all that he does, too, and it has rather a lot to do with Ilira. Back in Shadowbane, did you notice how he interacted with Eden? That's somewhat telling.
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Maybe Rath, but he strikes me as more like Artemis Entreri. He hates himself and thinks that bringing misery to others will ease his pain. But old Artemis is coming around, and even Erevis Cale found redemption, so I will hold out hope for him.
I plan to have Rath return, in all his self-loathing, barely-repressed, homicidal glory. We'll see.
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#4 - Do Lilten and Kirenkirsalai play this game of wit out of habit for their past friendship/rivalry? Or are they, like archwizards, afriad that a clash between them might bring way too much attention and end in mutual destruction? (due to their great personal power). Vampire Lords aren't as mighty as archwizards, but I'm unaware if Kirenkirsalai has powers given to him by Shar also.
Yes and yes. Neither of them is an archwizard. In fact, Lilten is a bard (with some skill in cleric, rogue, and fighter) and Kire is a fighter/rogue type (and a vampire lord besides).
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#5 - Finally, wasn't Cythara a cultist of Graz'zt? I think Graz'zt could possibly be Lilten's father. I considered Demogorgon too, since one of his priests kidnapped Ilira, but I think if Demogorgon was his father, Lilten would probably be bipolar. He's very charming and debonair, in a way that reminds me of Graz'zt.
Yes, Cythara was indeed a cultist of Graz'zt. Lilten's shared characteristics with Graz'zt are not accidental, though that doesn't necessarily make him the son of Graz'zt. His actual parentage has yet to be revealed.
I will say this much: Lilten is *not* the son of Demogorgon.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Shadowbane: Eye of Justice Book Club
