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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4586 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2012 :  21:45:26  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage  Send Erik Scott de Bie an AOL message Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
This is a general book club discussion thread for asking questions about the book. If there are spoilers, mark your post as such--say, "SPOILERS FOR CHAPTER XX!" where XX is the chapter the question comes up.

The difference between this thread and the one in the novels section is that this is specifically a BOOK CLUB thread, where I assume you will have read at least part of the novel.

We might disperse into more threads at some point, but the book club is a little unwieldy for that at the moment.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Signature of Shameless Self-Promotion +6: Order my sixth novel, Shadow of the Winter King (Amazon, e-signing, Dragonmoon Press)

Also check out my Realms work, most recently Shadowbane: Eye of Justice, out now on e-readers everywhere! (Kindle, Nook)

The Red Walker
Great Reader

USA
3523 Posts

Posted - 05 Sep 2012 :  02:35:24  Show Profile  Send The Red Walker a Yahoo! Message Send The Red Walker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

This is a general book club discussion thread for asking questions about the book. If there are spoilers, mark your post as such--say, "SPOILERS FOR CHAPTER XX!" where XX is the chapter the question comes up.

The difference between this thread and the one in the novels section is that this is specifically a BOOK CLUB thread, where I assume you will have read at least part of the novel.

We might disperse into more threads at some point, but the book club is a little unwieldy for that at the moment.

Cheers



Spoilers possible ch 1-3



I like the tone and pacing so far. Our old friend stealing the sword and arming her own "Shadowbane"...I was like wtf.....I need to re-read a bit I think!

A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4586 Posts

Posted - 05 Sep 2012 :  14:55:08  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage  Send Erik Scott de Bie an AOL message Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
SPOILERS CHAPTERS 1-3

quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker

I like the tone and pacing so far. Our old friend stealing the sword and arming her own "Shadowbane"...I was like wtf.....I need to re-read a bit I think!
Well, witnesses assume the Fox and Shadowbane are working together in that scene, but it should be clear that they aren't--or at least, they appear not to be eventually. Like when he attacks her.

But this book is full of intrigue. I wouldn't count that out!

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Signature of Shameless Self-Promotion +6: Order my sixth novel, Shadow of the Winter King (Amazon, e-signing, Dragonmoon Press)

Also check out my Realms work, most recently Shadowbane: Eye of Justice, out now on e-readers everywhere! (Kindle, Nook)
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The Red Walker
Great Reader

USA
3523 Posts

Posted - 05 Sep 2012 :  18:28:03  Show Profile  Send The Red Walker a Yahoo! Message Send The Red Walker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Spoilers Chap 1-6
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

SPOILERS CHAPTERS 1-3

quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker

I like the tone and pacing so far. Our old friend stealing the sword and arming her own "Shadowbane"...I was like wtf.....I need to re-read a bit I think!
Well, witnesses assume the Fox and Shadowbane are working together in that scene, but it should be clear that they aren't--or at least, they appear not to be eventually. Like when he attacks her.

But this book is full of intrigue. I wouldn't count that out!

Cheers



Like him mentioning his "master" had been teaching him shadowdance, but he preferred the style Vindacator was most suited to.

That leads to many thoughts! If Fox isnt the master..then who is? I think I know, but i'm not sure.

A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963

Edited by - The Red Walker on 05 Sep 2012 18:30:30
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The Red Walker
Great Reader

USA
3523 Posts

Posted - 05 Sep 2012 :  21:42:52  Show Profile  Send The Red Walker a Yahoo! Message Send The Red Walker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Spoilers Chap 1-3

Man..I think I have a new favorite Realms character.

Yaeshl the Ripper....it took Shadowbane and Fox to fell him!

How did Fox's rapier render him unconscious(didnt Fox take his pulse and say she thought he'd make it?) without the tip touching him?

Hopefully we haven't seen the last of Yaeshl and Old Man Tay.

A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963

Edited by - The Red Walker on 05 Sep 2012 21:47:07
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4586 Posts

Posted - 06 Sep 2012 :  14:56:50  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage  Send Erik Scott de Bie an AOL message Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker

Spoilers Chap 1-3
Man..I think I have a new favorite Realms character.
Yaeshl the Ripper....it took Shadowbane and Fox to fell him!
You liked that guy, did you? I wonder if that was intentional.

quote:
How did Fox's rapier render him unconscious(didnt Fox take his pulse and say she thought he'd make it?) without the tip touching him?
In short, shadow magic.

In long, there's a particular power old school 4e assassins (the shadow-wielding sort, not the executioner build) that harms with the shadow of the blade, rather than the blade itself. It's called "Inescapable Blade." And that's what she used in this instance.

quote:
Hopefully we haven't seen the last of Yaeshl and Old Man Tay.
They're very minor characters (and might be dead after that scene), so I don't leave much room in the rest of the novel for them to show up again, but never say never!

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Signature of Shameless Self-Promotion +6: Order my sixth novel, Shadow of the Winter King (Amazon, e-signing, Dragonmoon Press)

Also check out my Realms work, most recently Shadowbane: Eye of Justice, out now on e-readers everywhere! (Kindle, Nook)
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The Red Walker
Great Reader

USA
3523 Posts

Posted - 06 Sep 2012 :  16:48:22  Show Profile  Send The Red Walker a Yahoo! Message Send The Red Walker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker

Spoilers Chap 1-3
Man..I think I have a new favorite Realms character.
Yaeshl the Ripper....it took Shadowbane and Fox to fell him!
You liked that guy, did you? I wonder if that was intentional.


Best think about it was when describing this character to my wife, i got to the barbed chain... she said eww....but her eyes said something different

quote:
How did Fox's rapier render him unconscious(didnt Fox take his pulse and say she thought he'd make it?) without the tip touching him?
In short, shadow magic.

In long, there's a particular power old school 4e assassins (the shadow-wielding sort, not the executioner build) that harms with the shadow of the blade, rather than the blade itself. It's called "Inescapable Blade." And that's what she used in this instance.


Thanks..I was thinking something like that, but not sure exactly how it would work...thanks!

quote:
Hopefully we haven't seen the last of Yaeshl and Old Man Tay.[/quote]They're very minor characters (and might be dead after that scene), so I don't leave much room in the rest of the novel for them to show up again, but never say never!

Cheers
[/quote]

Well one(or two) can always hope

P.S.....I didn't do the weird blue font thing....but it kinda fits for a book about Myrin (So mods can leave it)

A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963

Edited by - The Red Walker on 06 Sep 2012 16:50:12
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The Red Walker
Great Reader

USA
3523 Posts

Posted - 06 Sep 2012 :  16:52:33  Show Profile  Send The Red Walker a Yahoo! Message Send The Red Walker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Spoilers Ch 24





A Dlardrageth....Fey'ri.....Lilten.....

damn I didn't see that one coming....if it was hinted at, it was well done. You kinda pulled that outta your shadow I think.

Now we have to watch you for shadowdance skills I guess?

I think I have known who the "new" shadowbane is for a while......but now I'm thinking that's what you want us to think

A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963

Edited by - The Red Walker on 06 Sep 2012 16:53:34
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29797 Posts

Posted - 06 Sep 2012 :  18:27:12  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker

P.S.....I didn't do the weird blue font thing....but it kinda fits for a book about Myrin (So mods can leave it)



There's a stray quote tag somewhere in the post. That's what's causing it.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4586 Posts

Posted - 06 Sep 2012 :  20:17:35  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage  Send Erik Scott de Bie an AOL message Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker

Spoilers Ch 24
damn I didn't see that one coming....if it was hinted at, it was well done. You kinda pulled that outta your shadow I think.
Now we have to watch you for shadowdance skills I guess?
It's been hinted at, indeed, from as early as Downshadow (and maybe "The Greater Treasure"). Also, if you have a DDI subscription, check out my Channel Divinity: Tymora article.

Lilten has been present in all three of my Shadowbane books so far, and he takes on a major role. But what about this marriage thing? Is that true, and how long has it been the case?

quote:
I think I have known who the "new" shadowbane is for a while......but now I'm thinking that's what you want us to think

I am kinda like that, aren't I?

Let me pull some crazy telepathy here. I think I know who you're thinking, and you're both right and wrong. You'll see what I mean.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Signature of Shameless Self-Promotion +6: Order my sixth novel, Shadow of the Winter King (Amazon, e-signing, Dragonmoon Press)

Also check out my Realms work, most recently Shadowbane: Eye of Justice, out now on e-readers everywhere! (Kindle, Nook)
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The Red Walker
Great Reader

USA
3523 Posts

Posted - 06 Sep 2012 :  21:20:51  Show Profile  Send The Red Walker a Yahoo! Message Send The Red Walker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker

Spoilers Ch 24
damn I didn't see that one coming....if it was hinted at, it was well done. You kinda pulled that outta your shadow I think.
Now we have to watch you for shadowdance skills I guess?
It's been hinted at, indeed, from as early as Downshadow (and maybe "The Greater Treasure"). Also, if you have a DDI subscription, check out my Channel Divinity: Tymora article.

Lilten has been present in all three of my Shadowbane books so far, and he takes on a major role. But what about this marriage thing? Is that true, and how long has it been the case?

quote:
I think I have known who the "new" shadowbane is for a while......but now I'm thinking that's what you want us to think

I am kinda like that, aren't I?

Let me pull some crazy telepathy here. I think I know who you're thinking, and you're both right and wrong. You'll see what I mean.

Cheers



I was right....then changed my mind to another which made me right again, but wrong about the first guess...then at the end I was only half wrong

Just to be safe Spoilers Again..whole book



About Fox and her new "shadow" Whats in it for whoever she makes her shadow? Can they communicate with her in anyway? It seems kinda one sided in her favor, especially when Gargan is "killed"....it seemed kinda selfish of her to do that to Brace. Unless it's just a shadow of the one who is her shadow? ..Oww my head hurts now, thanks Erik!

A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31687 Posts

Posted - 07 Sep 2012 :  01:08:51  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's getting really hard for me to avoid reading this scroll...

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4586 Posts

Posted - 07 Sep 2012 :  01:25:45  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage  Send Erik Scott de Bie an AOL message Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh don't do it Sage! You'll spoil the whole book.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Signature of Shameless Self-Promotion +6: Order my sixth novel, Shadow of the Winter King (Amazon, e-signing, Dragonmoon Press)

Also check out my Realms work, most recently Shadowbane: Eye of Justice, out now on e-readers everywhere! (Kindle, Nook)
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29797 Posts

Posted - 07 Sep 2012 :  01:33:05  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

It's getting really hard for me to avoid reading this scroll...



Not posting in it should help.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4586 Posts

Posted - 07 Sep 2012 :  01:45:51  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage  Send Erik Scott de Bie an AOL message Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker

Just to be safe Spoilers Again..whole book


About Fox and her new "shadow" Whats in it for whoever she makes her shadow? Can they communicate with her in anyway? It seems kinda one sided in her favor, especially when Gargan is "killed"....it seemed kinda selfish of her to do that to Brace. Unless it's just a shadow of the one who is her shadow? ..Oww my head hurts now, thanks Erik!
The shadowdancer's shadow bond comes straight out of the 3.5 shadowdancer prestige class. I haven't given it a whole lot of formal mechanical treatment in the book, but here are some general ways in which it works:

The shadow isn't the person in question, who has passed on to wherever that person was going to go. It's an undead creature--a modified shadow from the Monster Manual. It may have a sliver of the source creature's spirit in it, as it reflects some of the source person's thoughts and feelings.

Thematically, making a new shadow *is* sort of selfish on Ilira's part. It represents her hesitation to let go of people who are genuinely her friends. She's had very few of those in her long life, and fewer still since the Spellplague cursed her. It does give those people a chance to stay close to her and protect her, even if only as eternal, lifeless guardians.

The shadow and Ilira communicate on an empathic level. Not telepathy or actual speech (though Ilira has been known to curse at her shadow from time to time), but more like general feelings and emotions. Also, the shadow clearly influences Ilira's emotions at times as well, instilling a little of itself into her feelings and actions. (Just as the shadow is a shadow of Ilira, so is she a shadow of the shadow.)

The Gargan shadow was fiercely protective of Ilira and often seemed hesitant when she was crossing the line and acting with really hateful emotions. She became taciturn and maybe a little wiser when Gargan was her shadow. It remains to be seen how the new shadow will act or influence her: I suspect it will be more whimsical and make Ilira more talkative.

Also, this suggests another question entirely: what happened to her OWN shadow? Why doesn't she seem to have one of her own? Who has it?

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Signature of Shameless Self-Promotion +6: Order my sixth novel, Shadow of the Winter King (Amazon, e-signing, Dragonmoon Press)

Also check out my Realms work, most recently Shadowbane: Eye of Justice, out now on e-readers everywhere! (Kindle, Nook)
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The Red Walker
Great Reader

USA
3523 Posts

Posted - 07 Sep 2012 :  02:43:59  Show Profile  Send The Red Walker a Yahoo! Message Send The Red Walker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

It's getting really hard for me to avoid reading this scroll...



Not posting in it should help.



So that's why all the stickies are still around relegating this to page two....so Sage doesn't have to see it

A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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The Red Walker
Great Reader

USA
3523 Posts

Posted - 07 Sep 2012 :  02:58:30  Show Profile  Send The Red Walker a Yahoo! Message Send The Red Walker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker

Just to be safe Spoilers Again..whole book


About Fox and her new "shadow" Whats in it for whoever she makes her shadow? Can they communicate with her in anyway? It seems kinda one sided in her favor, especially when Gargan is "killed"....it seemed kinda selfish of her to do that to Brace. Unless it's just a shadow of the one who is her shadow? ..Oww my head hurts now, thanks Erik!
The shadowdancer's shadow bond comes straight out of the 3.5 shadowdancer prestige class. I haven't given it a whole lot of formal mechanical treatment in the book, but here are some general ways in which it works:

The shadow isn't the person in question, who has passed on to wherever that person was going to go. It's an undead creature--a modified shadow from the Monster Manual. It may have a sliver of the source creature's spirit in it, as it reflects some of the source person's thoughts and feelings.

Thematically, making a new shadow *is* sort of selfish on Ilira's part. It represents her hesitation to let go of people who are genuinely her friends. She's had very few of those in her long life, and fewer still since the Spellplague cursed her. It does give those people a chance to stay close to her and protect her, even if only as eternal, lifeless guardians.

The shadow and Ilira communicate on an empathic level. Not telepathy or actual speech (though Ilira has been known to curse at her shadow from time to time), but more like general feelings and emotions. Also, the shadow clearly influences Ilira's emotions at times as well, instilling a little of itself into her feelings and actions. (Just as the shadow is a shadow of Ilira, so is she a shadow of the shadow.)

The Gargan shadow was fiercely protective of Ilira and often seemed hesitant when she was crossing the line and acting with really hateful emotions. She became taciturn and maybe a little wiser when Gargan was her shadow. It remains to be seen how the new shadow will act or influence her: I suspect it will be more whimsical and make Ilira more talkative.

Also, this suggests another question entirely: what happened to her OWN shadow? Why doesn't she seem to have one of her own? Who has it?

Cheers



Been wondering that since "shadow Gargan" appeared....has a few ideas, but none fit. I at first assumed she betrayed Erevan Ilisere and he took it as punishment......then not so much, but I keep coming back to that.

Hopefully Shadow Brace helps her be a bit less jaded and her and Kalen don't destroy each other and leave Myrin alone because of a simple misunderstanding.

A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4586 Posts

Posted - 07 Sep 2012 :  15:38:37  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage  Send Erik Scott de Bie an AOL message Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker

quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker

Just to be safe Spoilers Again..whole book




Also, this suggests another question entirely: what happened to her OWN shadow? Why doesn't she seem to have one of her own? Who has it?
Been wondering that since "shadow Gargan" appeared....has a few ideas, but none fit. I at first assumed she betrayed Erevan Ilisere and he took it as punishment......then not so much, but I keep coming back to that.
Hmm . . . Darn it, now I want to write that story. Well, we'll see if this chapbook thing happens, eh?

quote:
Hopefully Shadow Brace helps her be a bit less jaded and her and Kalen don't destroy each other and leave Myrin alone because of a simple misunderstanding.
It is indeed a tragic misunderstanding, but I wanted to get across that the enmity between Ilira and Kalen is about more than Brace's death. It's a philosophical battle, it's about protecting Myrin (both sides trying to protect her from the other), and their own mutual attraction plays into it. Kalen is drawn to Ilira for the same reason he was drawn to Fayne--she represents this dark, ruthless, roguish side of him, free of responsibility or consequences.

Also, there was that pretty memorable kiss.

We'll see how this gets handled when the series continues. I have some plans (there's a word document on my computer called Shadowbane 4.doc), but we'll see.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Signature of Shameless Self-Promotion +6: Order my sixth novel, Shadow of the Winter King (Amazon, e-signing, Dragonmoon Press)

Also check out my Realms work, most recently Shadowbane: Eye of Justice, out now on e-readers everywhere! (Kindle, Nook)
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The Red Walker
Great Reader

USA
3523 Posts

Posted - 07 Sep 2012 :  16:01:40  Show Profile  Send The Red Walker a Yahoo! Message Send The Red Walker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker

quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker

Just to be safe Spoilers Again..whole book




Also, this suggests another question entirely: what happened to her OWN shadow? Why doesn't she seem to have one of her own? Who has it?
Been wondering that since "shadow Gargan" appeared....has a few ideas, but none fit. I at first assumed she betrayed Erevan Ilisere and he took it as punishment......then not so much, but I keep coming back to that.
Hmm . . . Darn it, now I want to write that story. Well, we'll see if this chapbook thing happens, eh?


I know....so much room to go so many directions for that isn't there? I assumed that was your plan...(maybe you fooled yourself?)I hope you do write that story and many other Fox chapbooks....so please do. Ill settle for a nice wordy dedication
quote:
Hopefully Shadow Brace helps her be a bit less jaded and her and Kalen don't destroy each other and leave Myrin alone because of a simple misunderstanding.
quote:
It is indeed a tragic misunderstanding, but I wanted to get across that the enmity between Ilira and Kalen is about more than Brace's death. It's a philosophical battle, it's about protecting Myrin (both sides trying to protect her from the other), and their own mutual attraction plays into it. Kalen is drawn to Ilira for the same reason he was drawn to Fayne--she represents this dark, ruthless, roguish side of him, free of responsibility or consequences.

Also, there was that pretty memorable kiss.

We'll see how this gets handled when the series continues. I have some plans (there's a word document on my computer called Shadowbane 4.doc), but we'll see.

Cheers



That was quite a kiss....now you have me thinking, if Vindacator is shared between the three aspects of the threefold god(or is it 4fourfold with Hoar...or did Hoar really displace one and it a realligned threefold...wow your making my head hurt again Erik!) why wouldn't each aspect of Kalen have a different match....as well as Ilira and Myrin's dual natures....it's kind of like a three-sided duallity thing they have going on together...each side(Kalen, Myrin, Ilira) could complete half of the other two sides.

A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963

Edited by - The Red Walker on 07 Sep 2012 16:20:17
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4586 Posts

Posted - 07 Sep 2012 :  16:18:39  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage  Send Erik Scott de Bie an AOL message Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker

Just to be safe Spoilers Again..whole book


That was quite a kiss....now you have me thinking, if Vindacator is shared between the three aspects of the threefold god ...... why wouldn't each aspect of Kalen have a different match....as well as Ilira and Myrin's dual natures....ists kins like a three-sided duallity thing they have going on together...each side(Kalen, Myrin, Ilira) could complete half of the other two sides.
What makes you think that isn't already the case?

I could say more, but I really don't want to spoil anything. Only that you're on the right track.

I will point out that Ilira (CN) and Myrin (LG) are supposed to appeal to opposite sides of Kalen's personality--the ruthless neutral rogue vs. the optimistic good crusader for justice.


quote:
(or is it 4fourfold with Hoar...or did Hoar really displace one and it a realligned threefold...wow your making my head hurt again Erik!)
Do you want what Shadowbane believes, what Vengeance believes, what Mercy believes, or the truth?

This is seriously a question you *should* be asking yourself at the end of the story. Answers to come, when I write the sequel.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Signature of Shameless Self-Promotion +6: Order my sixth novel, Shadow of the Winter King (Amazon, e-signing, Dragonmoon Press)

Also check out my Realms work, most recently Shadowbane: Eye of Justice, out now on e-readers everywhere! (Kindle, Nook)

Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 07 Sep 2012 17:24:53
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The Red Walker
Great Reader

USA
3523 Posts

Posted - 07 Sep 2012 :  16:26:47  Show Profile  Send The Red Walker a Yahoo! Message Send The Red Walker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah...I'm with you...I just didnt want to go to far and make a declartion that you had to ignore or could spoil anything for anyone....

I think you are handling it very well...very complex out of the ordinary relationship....or is it when you think of it? I mean besides Jerry McGuire and his lady....how many people are totally completed in everyway by just one person....so if your looking to provoke deep thoughts....Well played Sir!

Well now, future news of another Shadowbane novel will be a hard wait indeed. With these three characters (oh yeah and Yaeshl), you have made me enjoy them as much as you made me hate Meris. That's damn fine writing if you ask me.

A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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The Red Walker
Great Reader

USA
3523 Posts

Posted - 07 Sep 2012 :  20:38:40  Show Profile  Send The Red Walker a Yahoo! Message Send The Red Walker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And I want the truth about that last bit....but if you give us the straight truth, will we assume your just messin' with us and not believe?

And because I have had more than one friend ask me where to find your other "free" stories regarding Shadowbane:

http://erikscottdebie.com/exclusive-web-content-free/

A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963

Edited by - The Red Walker on 07 Sep 2012 20:41:34
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Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe

181 Posts

Posted - 18 Sep 2012 :  11:20:09  Show Profile  Visit Aes Tryl's Homepage Send Aes Tryl a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Erik, I have read nearly all your books and I just sped through EoJ on the kobo. I have to say that while I absolutely loved it, I am beginning to dislike Myrin more and more. Bringing Twilight and Kalen together in one novel is just so epic, and I love how you tie all your loose ends together. (SPOILERS WHOLE BOOK)

The Uncle Nemesis and Neveran reveals were incredible but is Kiren who we think he is or is this even more obfuscation? Also I really didn't like how Kalen got tagged for Brace's murder at the end, and how Myrin, despite knowing that Kalen would never be perpetrate such a crime, went along with it =/. It felt kinda filmsy. Also what was so wrong with what Kalen did to Vaelis, or was it his willingness to execute Vaelis and not grant mercy which turned Rhett against him? And how could you end it on a cliffhanger????!!!! That was cruel! Now I have to wait Helm knows how many months before the new Shadowbane novel comes out =(! It doesn't help that Mr Kemp delayed Godborn so it could be part of the sundering.

Also could you perhaps shed some light on the Hoar angle. I understand that the three-fold God is supposed to represent Helm, Tyr and Torm. How did an exarch of Bane get mixed up in all of this? Or will this be expanded upon in your next novel (if it is I will curse you in my sleep till it comes out)[I kid, I kid ..... I think]

SPOILERS END
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4586 Posts

Posted - 18 Sep 2012 :  16:17:20  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage  Send Erik Scott de Bie an AOL message Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Aes Tryl,

I shall endeavor to say what I can on these questions.


SPOILERS FOR THE WHOLE NOVEL and for the PREVIOUS NOVEL, SHADOWBANE


quote:
Originally posted by Aes Tryl

The Uncle Nemesis and Neveran reveals were incredible but is Kiren who we think he is or is this even more obfuscation?
That depends who you think he is.

quote:
Also I really didn't like how Kalen got tagged for Brace's murder at the end, and how Myrin, despite knowing that Kalen would never be perpetrate such a crime, went along with it =/. It felt kinda filmsy.
The only one who really believes Kalen killed Brace is Ilira. Myrin knows him and knows he wouldn't do such a thing--or at least she thinks he does. The point here is that Kalen has got darker and darker over the last couple books, and it finally reaches a point where Myrin can't just automatically assume good will on his part. As Shadowbane 4 will make clear (when I write it), Ilira is convinced Kalen killed Brace, but Myrin harbors great doubts about it and can't quite bring herself to believe her dear friend would have turned so evil.

I recommend you not be too hard on Myrin. She's had a trying series of experiences, and she's been fighting with Kalen the whole book. Not automatically going to his defense was sort of an assertion of her own will and actualization as a character. She's not Kalen's sidekick or just his token love interest. She has her own deal, her own motivations, and picks her own path. Is it a mistake that she breaks with Kalen? From what we know, sure--absolutely. But that doesn't make her a bad person.

Also, a big part of her actions at the end of the book are out of a need to care for and support Ilira. Basically, that event forces her to pick sides, and she sticks with Ilira out of loyalty to her new friend, who has been so good to her throughout the novel. Reconciling Kalen and Ilira is a major motivation for Myrin going forward.

quote:
Also what was so wrong with what Kalen did to Vaelis, or was it his willingness to execute Vaelis and not grant mercy which turned Rhett against him?
The way I think of it, Kalen is the wielder of awesome divine power, which he loosed against Vengeance. When he did it earlier against Scour (see Shadowbane), that was entirely justified: it was him against this demonic monster for the fate of the region, if not eventually the world. But when he turns the full weight of that divine strength against a mere mortal man, then he stops being a hero and becomes more like the monster himself. Kalen glimpses something deep and dark inside of himself, and it frightens him.

Picture this Star Wars analogy: Obi-Wan Kenobi has trained Anakin Skywalker (see Episode II), who has succumbed to the dark side and (presumably) died through a terrible error of judgment on Obi-Wan's part (see Episode III). Surprisingly, Obi-Wan faces Anakin again (this time as Darth Vader), and what does he do? He can't kill his old apprentice, so he sacrifices himself to save his friends and to demonstrate to Anakin the strength of the light side (see Episode IV). This is an early step on Vader's path to redemption.

Now what if Obi-Wan's reaction were not to try to *save* Anakin but merely to put him down like a dog, mercilessly maiming and torturing him through sheer superiority with the Force? This may be the right thing to do (Darth Vader is clearly a villain who has participated in torture, murder, and even genocide--see Alderaan), but what does it tell us about Obi-Wan? It's him giving into his anger, and giving into the dark side.

Go back to Kalen vs. Vaelis, and you see the same thing: a master faced with a now-evil apprentice. But instead of martyring himself to good, Kalen ruthlessly attacks Vengeance, maims him, and takes real pleasure in doing it. This isn't justice or duty--it's vengeance. This isn't Kalen channeling Helm--this is Kalen channeling HOAR. Vaelis knows it, Kalen knows it, and Rhett knows it.

quote:
And how could you end it on a cliffhanger????!!!!
Well, the story is ongoing, so ending on a cliffhanger just goes with the territory. As Ed says, every time you close a door, open a couple more.

Also, let me just say, it could be worse. It's less a cliffhanger and more of a "leave threads for a sequel" sort of ending. It would have been a cliffhanger if I'd left you not knowing if Kalen was alive or dead at the end.

quote:
That was cruel! Now I have to wait Helm knows how many months before the new Shadowbane novel comes out =(!
I currently have no next novel in contract with WotC, so who knows? If you want to read the next chapter in the story, I highly suggest you send the request to WotC, write an Amazon review, talk up the story to your friends, and keep talking about it on the boards.

quote:
It doesn't help that Mr Kemp delayed Godborn so it could be part of the sundering.
Paul didn't have anything to do with that. It wasn't his decision to delay Godborn--that was all WotC--and WotC chose to tie it into the Sundering, which by all accounts has enhanced the story. Good things come to those who wait.

quote:
Also could you perhaps shed some light on the Hoar angle. I understand that the three-fold God is supposed to represent Helm, Tyr and Torm. How did an exarch of Bane get mixed up in all of this? Or will this be expanded upon in your next novel (if it is I will curse you in my sleep till it comes out)
Oh, it certainly will. But here's some more:

Basically, there has to be an actual living god that grants divine powers to those who worship the Threefold God, and for the series so far, it's been assumed that that's Torm. Vengeance at least contends that the Threefold God isn't really Helm, Tyr, and Torm, but rather Helm, Tyr, and Hoar, the god of vengeance (not justice). Kalen's experiences seem to indicate that his power is indeed tinged with vengeance, particularly when he *wins* against Vengeance.

He's supposed to be left at the end of the novel in a crisis of faith, which is sort of a thing with him. In Downshadow, the sudden loss (and eventual return) of his paladin powers was a crisis of faith. In Shadowbane, it was more gradual--his powers eroding throughout the book, but he finally rediscovers his purpose and direction and unlocks a great power within himself. Eye of Justice shows him taking that too far, and facing the terrible consequences of using his powers for evil.


END SPOILERS


Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Signature of Shameless Self-Promotion +6: Order my sixth novel, Shadow of the Winter King (Amazon, e-signing, Dragonmoon Press)

Also check out my Realms work, most recently Shadowbane: Eye of Justice, out now on e-readers everywhere! (Kindle, Nook)
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Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe

181 Posts

Posted - 18 Sep 2012 :  17:16:05  Show Profile  Visit Aes Tryl's Homepage Send Aes Tryl a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Awesome thanks for the detailed reply Erik!! Hmmm I should do a slower, more careful read of EoJ.

Regarding Myrin, I understand she and Kalen keep fighting and Twilight seems to really appeal to her, but the last novel was just Kalen getting smashed in the face repeatedly again and again, all for her sake. That she "ditches" (I know she doesn't but it sure seems that way sometimes) Kalen and her general treatment of him kinda turns me off (I know she is going through a lot of trying experiences, but Kalen has gone through much of the same and he doesn't treat her much different). I don't think she is a bad person, but it seems like she is a teenager living in a very complex and convoluted world which she can't or refuses to see. It's exasperating not damning =P.

True, if I didn't know Kalen's status I would tear my hair out haha! And how can WoTC not give you a novel contract =(. Kalen is the only 4ed forgotten realms character that I've really fallen in love with (besides richard lee byers characters but they were transition characters so not counted =P). I have already talked up your novels to interested friends. But I'm not used to writing reviews haha. NOOOOO!!!! The story of Dren must continue =(. And how do I send a request to WoTC >=)?

Ah thanks for expounding on the 3-fold God and the relation between Rhett, Kalen and Vaelis. Yeah I kinda see how the "oh no, I became what I fought against" theme would horrify Kalen, or any paladin for that matter.

Oh and regarding Godborn, I know all about waiting. I've been waiting for Godborn since it was first announced and I think that was in 2007, so yes, I'm like a starving bear when it comes to Godborn. The idea of you not getting a next novel contract and the agony of waiting for Godborn for yet another year sends me into withdrawal spasms =(. Oh well at least the brimstone angels sequel gets released at the end of this year. But I hunger . . . for my preciousssssss.

Also can't wait for some actual illira and kalen conversations, it will be the stuff of legends! Thanks once again for the wonderful EoJ. I honestly enjoyed this the most out of all the Shadowbane novels.
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4586 Posts

Posted - 18 Sep 2012 :  18:14:58  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage  Send Erik Scott de Bie an AOL message Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aes Tryl

Awesome thanks for the detailed reply Erik!! Hmmm I should do a slower, more careful read of EoJ.
To clarify, that's not what I'm saying you should do, but hey, if you want to read it again, it's not like I'm going to advise against it.


SPOILERS ABOUND, MOSTLY for SHADOWBANE (book 2)


quote:
Regarding Myrin, I understand she and Kalen keep fighting and Twilight seems to really appeal to her, but the last novel was just Kalen getting smashed in the face repeatedly again and again, all for her sake.
Was it? Or was it more of Kalen trying to control her and make her do things his way. Sure, *he* thinks he was protecting her all the time, but if you look at it from her perspective, Kalen's kind of stifling her. He refused to let her try to help Luskan, he repeatedly tried to get her out of the city against her will (including kidnapping her when she was drunk), etc. Not to mention that in Eye of Justice, Kalen repeatedly distrusts her, disapproves of her friends, questions her judgment, and occasionally treats her like an inferior (including when he insulted her rather viciously just after she met Ilira).

Not to mention that Kalen is really scared of his feelings for her, which is sort of why he does that.

quote:
That she "ditches" (I know she doesn't but it sure seems that way sometimes) Kalen and her general treatment of him kinda turns me off (I know she is going through a lot of trying experiences, but Kalen has gone through much of the same and he doesn't treat her much different). I don't think she is a bad person, but it seems like she is a teenager living in a very complex and convoluted world which she can't or refuses to see. It's exasperating not damning =P.
You're definitely seeing things from Kalen's perspective. And yes, he has gone through a lot of trying experiences, and he doesn't treat her much differently, and that's the point.

Kalen spent all of Downshadow, all of Shadowbane, and most of Eye of Justice pushing Myrin away, and it really shouldn't be a surprise that eventually she chooses someone else. Which is not to say that she doesn't have extremely strong feelings for him and wish things were different, but it just isn't ok that he gets to push her around and always be right (when of course he isn't).

This is all purposeful. Basically, what I'm going for is that these are two adult characters who have different goals and methods. One isn't the knight in shining armor for the other, nor is one the damsel in distress. Myrin sort of *was* the damsel in distress once upon a time (Downshadow), but she's evolving beyond that into her own character. What Kalen really needs to do is treat her like the equal she is, and then they can resolve their issues. Kalen already *thinks* of her as an equal--it's just a matter of that translating into his actions.

My main goal is that I don't want either of them to seem to "deserve" the other, as though people are some sort of prize to be won (which is hugely prevalent in all fantasy). They have to *earn* the chance to be together, and they're not quite there yet.

[b]NOTE:[b] This is totally not me defending my work--obviously, you have your opinion, and you're SUPPOSED to--but just me explaining what I'm going for. If you're more on Kalen's side than Myrin's side, that's great! No worries! I'm just elucidating my attempts to present these characters as individuals with complex problems, which lend themselves to being on either side.

Also, to clarify, don't think that Myrin "ditching" Kalen indicates that she has any less feeling for him than she ever has had, and vice versa. If anything, Myrin is just pushing Kalen away the same way he's been pushing her away for three books now. It's as much his choices as hers (if not more so) that are keeping them apart--if they want to be together, they have to *choose* to be together.

quote:
And how do I send a request to WoTC >=)?
Check out their forums: http://community.wizards.com/go/forum/view/75882/136026/forgotten_realms

Also the bookclub is a good place to make your voice heard by the book department (Nina Hess is one of the editors): http://community.wizards.com/bookclub

quote:
Ah thanks for expounding on the 3-fold God and the relation between Rhett, Kalen and Vaelis. Yeah I kinda see how the "oh no, I became what I fought against" theme would horrify Kalen, or any paladin for that matter.
Indeed, that's what I was going for.

quote:
Also can't wait for some actual illira and kalen conversations, it will be the stuff of legends!
Oh, there are plans. Don't you worry.

quote:
Thanks once again for the wonderful EoJ. I honestly enjoyed this the most out of all the Shadowbane novels.
Great to hear it. I'm glad you enjoyed the book, and I hope that the next one (if/when I get to write it) will please you just as much.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Signature of Shameless Self-Promotion +6: Order my sixth novel, Shadow of the Winter King (Amazon, e-signing, Dragonmoon Press)

Also check out my Realms work, most recently Shadowbane: Eye of Justice, out now on e-readers everywhere! (Kindle, Nook)
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