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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
573 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Aug 2012 : 03:43:11
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I heartily disagree with the assumption that Depth/Detail = Realms. It is certainly a characteristic of the Realms, but no more so than Star Wars or Middle Earth really.
What is actually the defining characteristic of the Realms that is the complexity/depth/detail of the setting tends to preclude heroic epic/monomyth story telling--and that's just what TSR liked about it from the beginning.
Remember that the Realms was adopted by TSR not JUST because it was already designed, but because it contrasted strongly with the extremely narrow heroic-epic story line of Dragonlance.
In many ways, Realms stories (rooted in their details) form anti-epics where the heroes often don't act particularly heroic (there was a thread about this in regard to Elminster/War Wizards/and the Sisters recently) and antagonists are defined by more concrete motives than evil-for-the-sake-of-evil. Indeed, frequently in Greenwood tales, antagonistic elements are thwarted not by epic combat and battle, but through and innovative meeting of their needs--guerilla diplomacy.
The Realms tells us that the world is unfathomably complex, that characters have dimensions that aren't immediately obvious, and that conflict is able to be resolved as much by wit as by force. Detail and depth is one medium through which this is communicated, but is rather a symptom than the nature of the condition. |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2012 : 04:40:10
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Garen Thal hits it right on the mark, as opposed to Wooly Rupert and Old Man Hapell, who clearly have no, or a grossly incomplete, awareness of the Realms.
The Realms is a place for so many stories; not just one band of Lance seeking Heroes, or one tragic vampire, or one group of Gladiators thwarting Dragon Kings... It is a place where nearly every story can find a place... And those stories "keep on keeping on", not just in spite of, but due to, tragedy, conflict and pain. |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2012 : 05:11:50
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
Garen Thal hits it right on the mark, as opposed to Wooly Rupert and Old Man Hapell, who clearly have no, or a grossly incomplete, awareness of the Realms.
Thank you for the blatant condescension. Not seeing where it's coming from, though, as nothing I said contrasts with Garen's words.
quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
The Realms is a place for so many stories; not just one band of Lance seeking Heroes, or one tragic vampire, or one group of Gladiators thwarting Dragon Kings... It is a place where nearly every story can find a place... And those stories "keep on keeping on", not just in spite of, but due to, tragedy, conflict and pain.
Still not seeing how this contrasts with anything I said... |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2012 : 05:47:20
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
Garen Thal hits it right on the mark, as opposed to Wooly Rupert and Old Man Hapell, who clearly have no, or a grossly incomplete, awareness of the Realms.
The nature of a thread like this is that it invites personal responses, which are highly subjective. These are not the sorts of responses that can be used as evidence as to whether people have a "clear" understanding of the Realms or not, so let's leave off the comments about other people's points of view, OK? |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2012 : 07:52:04
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Not taking sides, but I can't figure out how wooly or OMH disagreed with anyone either.
In fact, I'm not even sure why Walker Ninja disagreed with me - he appears to be saying much the same as I was, just from a different angle is all.
By 'depth' I don't just mean the loads of details and history - I also mentioned the PEOPLE/ Its all interrelated. We don't just hear about Jonquessael of Tavaray, we find out about Tavaray, when it fell, and why. We don't just find out about the 'Hoar Sword', we find out it was carried once by Jonquessael of Tavaray, before he feel defending abridge to an orc horde. What orc horde, you ask? Why the one that was finally defeated by the elves of blah blah blah...
By 'depth' I mean everything has layers. Nothing in FR is two-dimensional. The characters matter most, but part of why they matter is because they are firmly anchored to a very real setting. And not just the 'big guns' - those are just the flashy ones we see in novels. Its the small things that heroes do - heroes like the PCs - that make small incremental changes in the Realms, which add up to those sweeping changes.
The Forgotten Realms isn't an edition, and it isn't a story - its a vast tapestry of endless stories, and not all with happy endings. Its a living, breathing, vibrant place, with the full gamut of emotions. It makes me laugh and it makes me cry. Its life.
Thats what I meant by 'depth' - not just the huge amounts of past lore, but what is done with that lore, and how it is poured into every aspect of the characters we meet. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Aug 2012 07:54:26 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2012 : 08:08:09
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This is really fun and uplifting, guys. Let's not taint it with digs on another poster. I said at the outset this was very personal, and you're not necessarily going to find that everyone agrees with you. People need to feel safe to express themselves without other posters jumping on their thoughts. I'd you have a problem with that, please just ignore it, and definitely don't post attacks on people you perceive as being in opposition. If you're going to do that, please just take it elsewhere.
Admins, feel free to step in when appropriate.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Drizztsmanchild
Learned Scribe
USA
228 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2012 : 08:19:37
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What makes the Realms "THE REALMS"?
Easy....you capitalized the letters
;-). |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2012 : 08:30:21
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| The HISTORY! |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
573 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2012 : 12:16:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In fact, I'm not even sure why Walker Ninja disagreed with me - he appears to be saying much the same as I was, just from a different angle is all.
I neither mentioned you nor was I responding to any poster in particular. I believe that there is a broader notion that what makes FR what it is are the details--a notion that I heartily disagree with. I'm just saying that naming all of the inns in each town, with all of the drink specials for each, and one-line stat blocks for each of the workers doesn't make FR. It's more than that. |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2012 : 17:45:30
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Ah, okay. Then I heartily agree with you. 
The Realms is greater then the sum of its parts. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2012 : 17:53:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Ah, okay. Then I heartily agree with you.
The Realms is greater then the sum of its parts.
Which is why the setting worked perfectly well in the early days to, before the history and lore got detailed beyond sketches and stories where only hinting at the past. |
No Canon, more stories, more Realms. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2012 : 17:59:54
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And will continue to, Jorkens. So it will. 
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2012 : 18:04:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
And will continue to, Jorkens. So it will.
Cheers
Oh just for the record; that was not a kick towards newer developments, it was more meant in the area of suggesting that even in its more primitive form the Realms had something of its own. |
No Canon, more stories, more Realms. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2012 : 18:09:55
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It's called 'flavor'.
So basically what you are asking for here Erik is for everyone to describe a flavor, which is kinda like asking to describe chocolate.
What does it taste like? It tastes good. But what does it taste like? It tastes like chocolate. See the problem?
Maybe, like chocolate, FR releases endorphins. All you know is that you want more of it.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Aug 2012 18:10:37 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2012 : 18:43:07
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something else that makes the realms the realms.
the life that is brought into each and every character, from Elminster, to shadowbane, to Fox at Twilight and her goliath friend who's problely trapped inside the poor elf and only comes out as her shadow....., to Drizzt, to Storm, Dove, the other seven and chosen of mystra. They all have a unigue personality and it makes them unique and you either end up hating them or loving them to love to hate them( or in some rare cases, both love and ahte them).
Some of them are dead and gone ut they still made the realms what it was and still is. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2012 : 23:28:07
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| And it all goes back to depth. Depth of character, depth of setting, history, lore, story, organizations, and even the deities. These are all elements that are part and parcel of the Realms' "feel". As sfd said, it's the "life" of the setting and its people that is important. And for the record, I belive that is what Wooly and OMH were getting at as well. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2012 : 10:47:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
And it all goes back to depth. Depth of character, depth of setting, history, lore, story, organizations, and even the deities. These are all elements that are part and parcel of the Realms' "feel". As sfd said, it's the "life" of the setting and its people that is important. And for the record, I belive that is what Wooly and OMH were getting at as well.
Exactly. Thank you, Alystra. |
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Xnella Moonblade-Thann
Learned Scribe
USA
234 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2012 : 11:02:02
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| My introduction to the Realms was the Song and Swords series, and I loved that Elaine Cunningham was able to create such interesting elven lore that seems to be taken as fact by the person who created the Realms. She was also able to take a fantasy setting and bring the characters and places to life, making everything seem as if it was real. She even has taken a character or two that was not originaly hers and went somewhere with them that pleased their creator. Anyone who can do all of that is, IMHO, hands-down one of the best authors. |
"Sweet water and light laughter until next we meet." - traditional elven farewell
Please forgive any spelling and grammer errors, as my android touch-screen phone has no spellchecker. If I do make a grammer mistake, please let me know and I'll try to fix it.
New laptop, still trying to sort my "scrolls" on its shelves...and when will this cursed thing stop doing things I tell it not to? |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2012 : 12:52:50
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| What i love about the realms is that every new novel or game makes you feel that you are reading the actual history of a magical land out there somewhere. The fact that its interconnected and the novels are canon is a huge plus for me. |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2012 : 14:28:20
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I think that my thoughts are the same as many of the posts here.
I'll just say, as above. |
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Q of the Week: What Makes the Realms THE REALMS?
