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jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Jul 2012 : 02:47:12
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Who is the most powerful Demon Prince in the Abyss?
Who is the Wisest Demon Prince in the Abyss?
Who is the oldest Demon Prince in the Abyss?
Which Demon Prince(s) are most likely agents of the Asmodeus?
Which Demon Prince is most likely an agent of good?
I have my own thought but want to hear what you guys think.
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Light
Learned Scribe
Australia
231 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2012 : 06:05:44
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1. Demogorgon claims to be "The Prince of Demons". He must obviously have the strength to back up his claim, but while this doesn't make him the strongest it surely makes him amongst the strongest.
3. Pale Night is known as "The Mother of Demons" and is one of the very few remaining Obyrith (which, if I remember correctly, are the first race of demons).
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"A true warrior needs no sword" - Thors (Vinland Saga) |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2012 : 07:03:39
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
Who is the most powerful Demon Prince in the Abyss?
Who is the Wisest Demon Prince in the Abyss?
Who is the oldest Demon Prince in the Abyss?
Which Demon Prince(s) are most likely agents of the Asmodeus?
Which Demon Prince is most likely an agent of good?
I have my own thought but want to hear what you guys think.
It can be argued that Pazuzu is the most powerful Demon of the Abyss...at least by me.
Taking all editions into consideration, even Asmodeus owes him a debt, he is an Obyrith (making him one of the original inhabitants of the Abyss), and his domain is the sky of EVERY abyssal layer.
So, to me, Pazuzu is the most powerful...quite likely the wisest (as his goals seem to be very long term, even in an immortal sense), he is among the oldest, he is the holder of a debt belonging to Asmodeus...but he likes to twist "good" so he isn't an agent of it. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2012 : 08:47:28
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| Under the name Pazriel, Pazuzu once elevated himself to divine patron of a large nation/empire of the Aearee creator race. The veneration of Pazriel by the ancestors of the Kenkus and Dire Corbies led to their debasement and loss of their ability to fly. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2012 : 10:59:33
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The most powerful, it's between Demogorgon, Orcus, and Grazzt. The wisest I'd say Dagon, or Haagenti. The oldest tanar'ri is Demogorgon, obyrith I don't know, older than all of them is Ulgurshek, a dreaden (living layer).
I don't think any of them are agents of Asmodeus or good, because it appears that all demon princes are sort of avatars of their layer, they have to be pure Abyssal beings. |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2012 : 15:46:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
I don't think any of them are agents of Asmodeus or good, because it appears that all demon princes are sort of avatars of their layer, they have to be pure Abyssal beings.
It was rumored that grazzt might be a spy.... |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2012 : 15:49:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
Who is the most powerful Demon Prince in the Abyss?
Who is the Wisest Demon Prince in the Abyss?
Who is the oldest Demon Prince in the Abyss?
Which Demon Prince(s) are most likely agents of the Asmodeus?
Which Demon Prince is most likely an agent of good?
I have my own thought but want to hear what you guys think.
It can be argued that Pazuzu is the most powerful Demon of the Abyss...at least by me.
Taking all editions into consideration, even Asmodeus owes him a debt, he is an Obyrith (making him one of the original inhabitants of the Abyss), and his domain is the sky of EVERY abyssal layer.
So, to me, Pazuzu is the most powerful...quite likely the wisest (as his goals seem to be very long term, even in an immortal sense), he is among the oldest, he is the holder of a debt belonging to Asmodeus...but he likes to twist "good" so he isn't an agent of it.
Interesting pick...and Dagon is similar in many respects. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2012 : 15:57:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
The most powerful, it's between Demogorgon, Orcus, and Grazzt. The wisest I'd say Dagon, or Haagenti. The oldest tanar'ri is Demogorgon, obyrith I don't know, older than all of them is Ulgurshek, a dreaden (living layer).
I don't think any of them are agents of Asmodeus or good, because it appears that all demon princes are sort of avatars of their layer, they have to be pure Abyssal beings.
I would have to disagree that Ulgurshek is older than the Obyriths as they were alive before the Abyss was even created. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2012 : 15:59:26
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
I don't think any of them are agents of Asmodeus or good, because it appears that all demon princes are sort of avatars of their layer, they have to be pure Abyssal beings.
It was rumored that grazzt might be a spy....
Spy for who? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2012 : 16:30:07
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Grazzt was presumably born a Batezu, and then became a demon. He is not a Tanar'ri. He has waffled back-and-forth over time. I assume Jordanz was referring to the OP, which means he meant Asmodeus.
See the thread where I conjectured that 'zt' is a suffix meaning 'clever betrayer' in Abyssal.
I have also conjectured that Ahriman actual became the Hells (at least the bottom layer - this from Guide to Hell), and Asmodeus is actually his Avatar. This ties into the demons because it relates to all fiendish lords - they are basically Avatars of their layers (and if the layers are self-aware, as in the case of Ulgurshek/the Dreaden, then that means the Fiend-lords are more like Exarchs).
In fact, labeling nearly all fiend-lords as exarchs is a good call - they are the power equivalent of Saints/archangels/Chosen/etc. That would mean they have to work for someone else, which is likely the Abyss (and Hell) itself.
Aren't demons just tainted Elementals now? I like that up to a point; I think demons should be any sort of corrupted (by Chaos) Outsider. Why couldn't a gaurdinal or Genie become a Demon? Or even a dead Chosen (or ex-Chosen), or, as in the case of Grazzt, and ex-devil (who themselves are supposed to be fallen angels/archons)?
Hmppph... that means if Grazzt is old enough, he may have been an archangel first. 'Clever betrayer' may be the perfect way to describe him - he's the definition of cosmic traitor. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Jul 2012 16:32:17 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2012 : 16:42:49
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| Where is this information on Grazzt to be found??? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2012 : 16:57:45
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Not sure - I know I first learned of it here. There are others around MUCH more PS knowledgeable then I.
It may have been a 4th edition thing, or it may have come from the 3e fiend books - not sure. I know it is a fairly recent (post-2000) edition to his lore.
EDIT: That last part is supposition of my own, based on the stuff in Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the None Hells (the part about devils being angels, originally). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Jul 2012 17:00:34 |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2012 : 19:21:53
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| Twas recent. I thought it was in the Poll: Demon Daddy, but I couldn't find it. I'm not sure how much was conjecture and how much was actual factual. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2012 : 19:24:16
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Woot! 1,000 posts.
Isn't Dagon Obyrith as well? |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2012 : 19:58:16
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According to Wikipedia, it was a 4e change (last line under 'publication history').
I don't peg him for a fallen angel though... I peg him for Cambion-drow.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2012 : 20:06:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
Woot! 1,000 posts.
Isn't Dagon Obyrith as well?
Dagon is indeed...and feared by the other Obyrith Lords (especially the Queen of Chaos it is noted). |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2012 : 20:24:14
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Graz'zt is the ONLY demon Dalor Darden just couldn't get a grip on. I think it had more to do with the DM outright cheating to keep my character from mastering the fiend...but it did make Dalor start to DEAL with him instead of trying to master him like Iggwilv...after all, Dalor had NO desire to use Iggwilv's weapon (sex!) on the fella!
He is one of my favorite Demons ever...can't believe I missed the reference to him having been a Devil before...
However, his race, the Vasharans, were used heavily by Dalor in his own war against the Gods...which is the ONE thing he apparently had in common with Graz'zt. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2012 : 03:31:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
The most powerful, it's between Demogorgon, Orcus, and Grazzt. The wisest I'd say Dagon, or Haagenti. The oldest tanar'ri is Demogorgon, obyrith I don't know, older than all of them is Ulgurshek, a dreaden (living layer).
I don't think any of them are agents of Asmodeus or good, because it appears that all demon princes are sort of avatars of their layer, they have to be pure Abyssal beings.
I would have to disagree that Ulgurshek is older than the Obyriths as they were alive before the Abyss was even created.
Only in the 4e PoL cosmology. In the Great Wheel cosmology the Obyriths were seeded into the Abyss by the baernaloths (the original NE fiends) who likewise seeded the Ancient Baatorians into the pre-Asmodeus and baatezu Baator. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2012 : 03:45:14
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
Who is the most powerful Demon Prince in the Abyss?
Who is the Wisest Demon Prince in the Abyss?
Who is the oldest Demon Prince in the Abyss?
Which Demon Prince(s) are most likely agents of the Asmodeus?
Which Demon Prince is most likely an agent of good?
I have my own thought but want to hear what you guys think.
Most Powerful: I'd probably say Demogorgon, Orcus, Graz'zt, or Pale Night.
Wisest: Pale Night or Dagon would be my guess.
Oldest: Pale Night, Dwiergus, Bechard, or Cabiri as they seem the oldest of the Obyriths from my perspective.
None.
None.
:) |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2012 : 03:49:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It may have been a 4th edition thing, or it may have come from the 3e fiend books - not sure. I know it is a fairly recent (post-2000) edition to his lore.
Entirely a 4e retcon (though it's a different cosmology so it's not a true retcon since the 4e Grazzt isn't the 1e/2e/3e one precisely).
Fwiw, per PS, rather than having any association with devils or tanar'ri, Graz'zt was the child of Pale Night. Mind you, we don't know the father there, or if one was even required. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2012 : 04:14:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
The most powerful, it's between Demogorgon, Orcus, and Grazzt. The wisest I'd say Dagon, or Haagenti. The oldest tanar'ri is Demogorgon, obyrith I don't know, older than all of them is Ulgurshek, a dreaden (living layer).
I don't think any of them are agents of Asmodeus or good, because it appears that all demon princes are sort of avatars of their layer, they have to be pure Abyssal beings.
I would have to disagree that Ulgurshek is older than the Obyriths as they were alive before the Abyss was even created.
Only in the 4e PoL cosmology. In the Great Wheel cosmology the Obyriths were seeded into the Abyss by the baernaloths (the original NE fiends) who likewise seeded the Ancient Baatorians into the pre-Asmodeus and baatezu Baator.
That is only according to the Baernoloths themselves...perhaps the Yugoloths as well might claim this; but anything spouted by evil lower planar liars is likely to be a twisting of the truth at least.
I don't hold the 4e Cosmology as a Ret-con...though I don't like a lot of it either. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2012 : 04:20:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
That is only according to the Baernoloths themselves...perhaps the Yugoloths as well might claim this; but anything spouted by evil lower planar liars is likely to be a twisting of the truth at least.
Oh they're consummate liars of the first order. But mind you, it was confirmed by the obyrith Bechard (FC:I), and it's also the reason that Cabiri was sealed into the Wells of Darkness (for finding out too much about obyrith origins and going to look for them). |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2012 : 04:55:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
That is only according to the Baernoloths themselves...perhaps the Yugoloths as well might claim this; but anything spouted by evil lower planar liars is likely to be a twisting of the truth at least.
Oh they're consummate liars of the first order. But mind you, it was confirmed by the obyrith Bechard (FC:I), and it's also the reason that Cabiri was sealed into the Wells of Darkness (for finding out too much about obyrith origins and going to look for them).
I thought Cabiri was sealed in a Well of Darkness because he refused the Queen's call to war against the Wind Dukes?
As for Bechard, the dying throes of his mind could have distorted his memory...he is "mostly dead" anyway. Even if not, he has related that: "...demons did not originate ON the Abyss but instead migrated here from elsewhere after abandoning a race of fiendish creators now lost to history..."
I would say that the Demons could easily be said to have come to Abyss (the Obyriths ARE demons) from elsewhere...their own universe...especially as we do not know how the Obyriths came to be created Bechard could be remembering his own birth in another universe.
All in how you look at it eh? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2012 : 08:07:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
That is only according to the Baernoloths themselves...perhaps the Yugoloths as well might claim this; but anything spouted by evil lower planar liars is likely to be a twisting of the truth at least.
Oh they're consummate liars of the first order. But mind you, it was confirmed by the obyrith Bechard (FC:I), and it's also the reason that Cabiri was sealed into the Wells of Darkness (for finding out too much about obyrith origins and going to look for them).
I thought Cabiri was sealed in a Well of Darkness because he refused the Queen's call to war against the Wind Dukes?
As for Bechard, the dying throes of his mind could have distorted his memory...he is "mostly dead" anyway. Even if not, he has related that: "...demons did not originate ON the Abyss but instead migrated here from elsewhere after abandoning a race of fiendish creators now lost to history..."
Dragon 357 gets into it further, placing his imprisonment as being directly caused by or engineered by the baernaloths after he learned too much about his and the obyriths origins and went looking for the baern. It and FC:I also pretty clearly dovetail on a version of the Heart of Darkness yugoloth origin mythology from 2e.
IMO Bechard is clearly talking about the baern, given the later reference with Cabiri in FC:I and the allusion to the 2e 'loth creation mythology. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2012 : 08:14:54
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| Abyss formed around Ulgurshek while it was sleeping, obyriths are older only if they are older than the Abyss. 4e obyriths seem to be from another older universe and have the baernaloth role, but in regular D&D cosmology I don't think so. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2012 : 13:39:14
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Sounds like it was part of the 4e 'downsizing'.
Oyriths "killed the Baernaloths and took their stuff". Remember that wretched mantra? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2012 : 14:15:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
That is only according to the Baernoloths themselves...perhaps the Yugoloths as well might claim this; but anything spouted by evil lower planar liars is likely to be a twisting of the truth at least.
Oh they're consummate liars of the first order. But mind you, it was confirmed by the obyrith Bechard (FC:I), and it's also the reason that Cabiri was sealed into the Wells of Darkness (for finding out too much about obyrith origins and going to look for them).
I thought Cabiri was sealed in a Well of Darkness because he refused the Queen's call to war against the Wind Dukes?
As for Bechard, the dying throes of his mind could have distorted his memory...he is "mostly dead" anyway. Even if not, he has related that: "...demons did not originate ON the Abyss but instead migrated here from elsewhere after abandoning a race of fiendish creators now lost to history..."
Dragon 357 gets into it further, placing his imprisonment as being directly caused by or engineered by the baernaloths after he learned too much about his and the obyriths origins and went looking for the baern. It and FC:I also pretty clearly dovetail on a version of the Heart of Darkness yugoloth origin mythology from 2e.
IMO Bechard is clearly talking about the baern, given the later reference with Cabiri in FC:I and the allusion to the 2e 'loth creation mythology.
Dragon 357...check! Thanks for the heads up. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2012 : 14:22:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Abyss formed around Ulgurshek while it was sleeping, obyriths are older only if they are older than the Abyss. 4e obyriths seem to be from another older universe and have the baernaloth role, but in regular D&D cosmology I don't think so.
I can't part the two timelines...to me they have to run linear and together or I'm likely to drop the whole thing. As I said, I don't consider 4e a ret-con...but instead treat it as "the current view of things" for the Multiverse. Sort of like the whole "the world is flat...oh...wait, it is ROUND!  " thing.
So, as I said before, I don't LIKE some of the things that happened (I don't like Asmodeus having been a simple Angel...and Graz'zt having been one of his servants)...I try to reconcile it all. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2012 : 15:57:52
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Someone (maybe me) should compile all of the Demonomicon of Iggwilv articles together.
Just found this over at Wizards. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 21 Jul 2012 15:58:25 |
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Tigon
Acolyte
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2018 : 09:07:49
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Confirmed on 1/22/18 by Chris Perkins (@ChrisPerkinsDnD on twitter) on the D&D youtube channel: Dragon Talk Lore You Should Know
Graz'zt was indeed a devil from Baator originally
https://youtu.be/oWss8x9bF78?t=37m45s |
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2018 : 09:41:56
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| How about Lilith? She's pretty ancient. |
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Demon Prince Questions
