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Ozreth
Learned Scribe
188 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Jul 2012 : 05:05:48
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So when you sit down and think "Ok, new campaign, here we go", do you encourage the players to use Faerunian based races (gold elf, gray dwarf etc) or just the PHB races?
And if you're using Faerunian races, which do you or don't you allow? And do you just use the PHB stats and call them something different or are they mechanically supported from various sourcebooks?
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4430 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2012 : 06:45:03
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If I'm playing in the Realms, I encourage any/all racial ideas. I despise limitations based on one's specific dislikes of "non-standard" races. It's been my experiences with these sorts of DMs who feel that if your not playing a Elf, Human, Halfling, or Dwarf (with the exception of Gnome or Half-Orc) then your either trying to be "super unique" or "power-gaming" and it's a bit insulting too*
In Realms specific campaigns (mechanics wise), the PHB does just fine for a quick fit or if someone would rather work on other areas of Character customization such as a person just using the elf stats (v3.5) from the PHB and note in their detailed description that they're a Gold Elf. There are some, however, that look at all sorts of other Splats for different, unique, and non-standard options for their races and classes. For example, use the stats from Races of Faerűn/Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (3E) to take their Gold Elf stats +2 Int, -2 Con and also Races of the Wild supplement to grab the Elven Wizard sub-level AND maybe Player's Guide to Faerűn for the Otherworldly feat.
Heck, I even allow non-Forgotten Realms races into the Realms games such as Warforged and Muls because to me, if a character wants to describe themselves in a certain way and that particular way uses the racial stuff from another setting, we can always Realmsify it later and with good content and a decent backstory.
As for making the Players use FR specific names such as "Gold Elf", "Shield Dwarf", "Chondathan Human"...yea I think I do throw out there that if your such-and-such, you'll be X, Y, or Z FR-specific title. But I also give out free Regional feats (using v3.5) to help encourage my players to go deeper into the setting for their racial stuff. I also point to Races of Faerűn a lot, even when using 4th Edition, because it has a LOT of useful information about the ethnicities of humans as well as a host of other important info.
*sorry for the tangent, but that's sort of a hot-button with me for some reason. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6354 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2012 : 10:46:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
If I'm playing in the Realms, I encourage any/all racial ideas. I despise limitations based on one's specific dislikes of "non-standard" races. It's been my experiences with these sorts of DMs who feel that if your not playing a Elf, Human, Halfling, or Dwarf (with the exception of Gnome or Half-Orc) then your either trying to be "super unique" or "power-gaming" and it's a bit insulting too*
It doesn't have to be because someone is power-gaming or trying to be "super unique." As I recently said, my thinking is that if a race is not in a Realms book, it's not a Realms race and does not need to be in the Realms. I think some of the other races from the Races of Whatever books were created not to fill a need, but to fill page count and sell books. And that I don't want -- I want something that belongs in the Realms, not something that was created to make money and that then has to be shoe-horned in. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4430 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2012 : 15:31:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
If I'm playing in the Realms, I encourage any/all racial ideas. I despise limitations based on one's specific dislikes of "non-standard" races. It's been my experiences with these sorts of DMs who feel that if your not playing a Elf, Human, Halfling, or Dwarf (with the exception of Gnome or Half-Orc) then your either trying to be "super unique" or "power-gaming" and it's a bit insulting too*
It doesn't have to be because someone is power-gaming or trying to be "super unique." As I recently said, my thinking is that if a race is not in a Realms book, it's not a Realms race and does not need to be in the Realms. I think some of the other races from the Races of Whatever books were created not to fill a need, but to fill page count and sell books. And that I don't want -- I want something that belongs in the Realms, not something that was created to make money and that then has to be shoe-horned in.
I think we'll just have to disagree. There's no reason why Warforged can't easily be explained in the Realms (Lantan creations such as Gondsmen, Imaskar war-machines, steel-golems gain sentience via divine magic with reincarnation, wizard made golem has wizard's sentience implanted inside, etc.) or Shifter or Goliaths or Muls (dwarf + Human offspring can't happen in the Realms for some reason?).
With such a grand-stand sized setting such as the Realms, with portals to other worlds and Sigil it's hard for me to accept that because no one (author wise) put Muls or Changelings in a Realms novel or FR source book, it's impossible for them to be on the planet of Toril. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2012 : 17:10:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
If I'm playing in the Realms, I encourage any/all racial ideas. I despise limitations based on one's specific dislikes of "non-standard" races. It's been my experiences with these sorts of DMs who feel that if your not playing a Elf, Human, Halfling, or Dwarf (with the exception of Gnome or Half-Orc) then your either trying to be "super unique" or "power-gaming" and it's a bit insulting too*
It doesn't have to be because someone is power-gaming or trying to be "super unique." As I recently said, my thinking is that if a race is not in a Realms book, it's not a Realms race and does not need to be in the Realms. I think some of the other races from the Races of Whatever books were created not to fill a need, but to fill page count and sell books. And that I don't want -- I want something that belongs in the Realms, not something that was created to make money and that then has to be shoe-horned in.
I think we'll just have to disagree. There's no reason why Warforged can't easily be explained in the Realms (Lantan creations such as Gondsmen, Imaskar war-machines, steel-golems gain sentience via divine magic with reincarnation, wizard made golem has wizard's sentience implanted inside, etc.) or Shifter or Goliaths or Muls (dwarf + Human offspring can't happen in the Realms for some reason?).
With such a grand-stand sized setting such as the Realms, with portals to other worlds and Sigil it's hard for me to accept that because no one (author wise) put Muls or Changelings in a Realms novel or FR source book, it's impossible for them to be on the planet of Toril.
There are some races that can be easily worked in, and I do think that shifters, changelings, and warforged fit that category -- as long as it's done in small numbers.
But we've already got half-dwarves in the Realms, though they're quite uncommon and not a separately statted race. So there's no need for muls. And though I know Erik Scott de Bie would disagree, I don't see a need for yet another flavor of giant, when we've already got many flavors there. I don't see a need for near-humans like illumians. Draconians and kalashtar simply don't fit into Realmslore.
Basically, if something can be integrated with existing Realmslore, and if it makes sense to include the race, and if it's not close to or another version of something already there, then I'm not opposed. I just do not feel this is the case with most of the Races of Whatever stuff.
Yes, other one-offs can be included; we do have a Nehwon ghoul in canon, in the Realms, and we know a kender was intending to travel to the Realms. Those are fine for NPCs.
But if I'm running a Realms campaign, I want Realms characters -- and that means either canon native races, or ones like changelings that can be worked into the setting in a non-disruptive manner.
I don't want characters from outside the Realms, because it's difficult enough to have an exotic native like a half-golem or an avariel or a good drow, as it is -- such characters should stand out like a sore thumb and at the very least be subjected to a lot of extra scrutiny, if not outright superstition and hostility. It's only going to be worse for a non-native race, and that's not worrying about how they wound up in the Realms, on top of that. Even without that element, exotic races should be used sparingly, at best -- nothing destroys the "special" like making something commonplace, and going for something too exotic (or too much exotic, like the party composition for the Rogue Dragons books*) can tend to overshadow any non-exotic types.
It also, I think, detracts from the experience of the setting when attention is being given to something from outside of the setting.
*One of my few complaints about those books: it's just not realistic to me to think a half-golem, an arctic dwarf, an avariel, and a song dragon will by chance wind up in one small group. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2012 : 17:20:27
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I am more or less on the opposite side of Diffan here. The standard Ad&d races will usually do, but a few from the Complete book series can always be used to spice things up. I actually prefer to keep elves out of the game if I can and can only remember one being played ever.
These restrictions are of course easier to use with TSR editions. |
No Canon, more stories, more Realms. |
Edited by - Jorkens on 10 Jul 2012 17:20:54 |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2012 : 21:10:34
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| I'm a huge fan of the Complete Book of Humanoids. One of my favorite 2E characters was a Minotaur pit fighter |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2012 : 21:39:27
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| The races and subraces of 3.x being one of may favorite parts of the system, I allow my players to play most everything LA +0, especially if they provide a good backstory. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2012 : 21:43:50
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
I'm a huge fan of the Complete Book of Humanoids. One of my favorite 2E characters was a Minotaur pit fighter
One of my personal faves was also a minotaur, though he was a regular fighter. I've since imported him into the Realms, and he and his friends own a tavern in Waterdeep.
The Realms has minotaurs, so I'd not have too much issue with someone wanting to play a minotaur PC, at least from a flavor standpoint. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Ozreth
Learned Scribe
188 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2012 : 00:01:58
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| As for me, I feel like sticking with the FR races is nice because it covers a wide range and fits the flavor. On top of that I'd allow catfolk and minotaurs because they are awesome. |
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Ozreth
Learned Scribe
188 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2012 : 00:03:11
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| How does everybody feel about half orcs? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2012 : 00:22:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Ozreth
How does everybody feel about half orcs?
They're canon and make sense for the setting. I see no reason not to include/allow them.
That said, I'm not a fan myself, and don't see myself playing one. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Ozreth
Learned Scribe
188 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2012 : 00:37:00
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| I'm not as well versed as I could be and haven't read any novels (where I get most of my lore from) with half orc characters in them. Can you suggest one? |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2012 : 00:46:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Ozreth
How does everybody feel about half orcs?
I would never let my daughter date one |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2012 : 00:49:11
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Wooly has explained my stance on this all almost to the point.
In addition, the standard race options in the PHB and coupled with the rich lore of the FRCS are enough to fill a lifetime of character (non)archetypes options allready. So we usually limit ourselves to the standards. It's fun to switch to the complete opposite once in a while though.
Some exotic races are intriguing, but most of the time the lore around them is a bit poor. I did like the effort taken by Eytan Bernstien for some of the splatbook races in his Class Chronicles articles. - Look out for the imbalanced mechanic related to the Factotums though. I'm partial to the pretty cool flavour for Gith characters he delivered. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4430 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2012 : 02:00:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Ozreth
How does everybody feel about half orcs?
Played a Half-Orc Paladin of Amaunator, was a pretty decent character for the few sessions we did (transistion peroid between campaigns and all). Though it was with 4E and Half-Orcs are actually good there mechanically (rubbish in v3.5).
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Look out for the imbalanced mechanic related to the Factotums though. I'm partial to the pretty cool flavour for Gith characters he delivered.
I've heard the Factotum be called a lot of things, but imbalance wasn't one of them. What, exactly, did you find imbalanced? |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2012 : 03:01:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Ozreth
How does everybody feel about half orcs?
In terms of lore, they're almost a logical extension of the classic dynamical interaction between humans and orcs. Like half-elves, really.
That being said, I've yet to actually assume the role of a half-orc PC, so I'm not sure how I feel about them from the table-top perspective. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2012 : 03:06:31
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| Not the Factotum itself no... As it's total inspiration points over the course of the class give it a measure of flexibilty. But with the feat Font of Inspiration Bernstein gave in his article their use can give the Factotum a tad too many actions and the ability to nova a bit too soon. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
Edited by - Bladewind on 11 Jul 2012 03:09:14 |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2012 : 03:28:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Ozreth
How does everybody feel about half orcs?
The missus plays a half-orc fighter in my current campaign (the one in which I have forbidden multiclassing). If you can, picture the lady smith 'Atalanta' from Hercules: The Legendary Journeys (blonde hair and all), and give her greenish skin and a tiny pair of upward-pointing tusks (the character's name is 'Orchid').
Generally, I will not disallow a race unless I think the idea behind that race as a player race is ridiculous. I used to disallow Warforged, although some discussions here in Candlekeep made me change my mind on that (their appearance will be more or less unique, however, not the generic sort from Eberron, whose concept I roundly dislike).
I will allow other-world races (such as kender or mul, for example) on a case-by-case basis provided a good backstory is furnished (in the Baldur's Gate games, Knights of Solamnia are left to find their way in the Realms, after all). Nothing is guaranteed, though - it is the player's job to make a case to me.
One race I disallow, and will never allow, is dragonborn. I used to believe that it was only because they represented the worst of Wizbro's shoehorning of their goofy 'core world' (or whatever it's called) Points of Light ridiculousness into the Realms, but I've come to realize that could have been done with almost any race (it was done to a similar extent with genasi, after all, but I do allow those).
I have come to realize that dragonborn, in my opinion, ruin the atmosphere of the Realms, much as a drow would utterly ruin the atmosphere of the Birthright setting. I enjoy drow, and I love the world of Cerilia (every bit as much as the Realms, in fact), but never shall the two meet - period. Much as the Realms and the dragonborn - to me, the two simply do not go together. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2012 : 09:12:10
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We had all kinds of races before (yuan-ti, adu'ja, faerie dragon, nerra ...), but in the last few years I changed my mind about weird races. Humans only know how humans think, and sometimes not even that. The last campaign only had humans, and when I'm the DM again I'll allow creatures that are partially human in some way, e.g. the gith, tiefling, changeling (like in mythology, not doppelgangers) ... that struggle between the human and alien side is interesting
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Monkeyofficeboy
Acolyte
United Kingdom
9 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2012 : 12:10:49
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| I have to say I positively encourage players to use the races out of the FRCS and those from Races of Faerun, and have never barred any PHB races either... but I certainly would draw the line at bringing races intended for one setting into another with out some serious justification, and even then reserve the right to say no. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2012 : 13:31:37
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| There certainly are players who choose weird races to be uncooperatively 'different', for game-mechanical reasons, or as a substitute for having an interesting character, but I'd hope to weed those out before it came to character creation, so no absolute bars for me. But I much prefer to keep elves, dwarves and halflings as exotic rarities rather than raise the bar on oddity, so I'd make it clear, for most Realms campaigns, that playing humans, and secondarily appropriate demihumans, was strongly encouraged. |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2012 : 14:46:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Ozreth
I'm not as well versed as I could be and haven't read any novels (where I get most of my lore from) with half orc characters in them. Can you suggest one?
Crypt of the Moaning Diamond by Rosemary Jones. |
I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
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So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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EytanBernstein
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
704 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2012 : 16:10:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Not the Factotum itself no... As it's total inspiration points over the course of the class give it a measure of flexibilty. But with the feat Font of Inspiration Bernstein gave in his article their use can give the Factotum a tad too many actions and the ability to nova a bit too soon.
Haha. That one is still biting me in the rear 5 years later. |
http://eytanbernstein.com - the official website of Eytan Bernstein |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4430 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2012 : 16:24:37
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quote:
Originally posted by EytanBernstein
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Not the Factotum itself no... As it's total inspiration points over the course of the class give it a measure of flexibilty. But with the feat Font of Inspiration Bernstein gave in his article their use can give the Factotum a tad too many actions and the ability to nova a bit too soon.
Haha. That one is still biting me in the rear 5 years later.
I don't see why, the Factotum is a pretty bland and I dare say underpowered class without it. That feat really puts up on par with classes of the same Tier. Without it, one is just better to be a Wizard, Cleric, or Druid and reflavor/fluff the class to fit a Factotum, espically with how multiclassing works with 3E. Font of Inspiration is pretty awesome without being broken. |
Edited by - Diffan on 18 Jul 2012 16:25:08 |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2012 : 18:36:07
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it depends on the player, but as a general rule, I allow anything provided you give me a good backstory/roleplaying reason. This weeds out powergamers.
But if there's a new player that doesn't know the game that well, I limit it to Races of Faerun, the Player's Handbook, and Monster Manual. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4430 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2012 : 19:07:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
it depends on the player, but as a general rule, I allow anything provided you give me a good backstory/roleplaying reason. This weeds out powergamers.
I think the term you're looking for is Munchkin, not Powergamer. A Powergamer works within the rules and boundaries to make a mechanically strong character and often does have strong backstories to reason their choices in builds. |
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Thrasymachus
Learned Scribe
195 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2012 : 10:44:33
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Anything in 1st Edition Core Books, or First Edition Realms. Well, except for gnomes. It's the one gimmee I asked for as a DM regarding races. I couldn't get little red cone hats out of my head.
Halfling were allowed, but were accidentally discouraged. The player tossed in their character sheet that they created, and I allegedly said…
Thrasy “Ah, an untrustworthy halfling”
Player: “No, no, no. He’s good.”
Thrasy “Of course an untrustworthy halfling would say that”
Now I say allegedly, because to this day I don’t remember the conversation. I was told about it years later, and it was 7-1 gang up on the DM, so I am going along with that’s what happened.
Players are so darn sensitive.
We've also done races from Dragon Magazine like "The Whole Half Ogre" issue #73.
And any DM that thinks Half Ogres are fine can't really have a beef with half orcs. 
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Former Forgotten Realms brand manager Jim Butler: "Everything that bears the Forgotten Realms logo is considered canon". |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2012 : 19:04:46
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These days it seems like there's populations of everything, somewhere in the Realms. Although I agree that no racial choice should be impossible, that's not the same thing as saying that every racial choice should be probable.
Which races to allow in "your" Realms? The answer is another question - which races do you want, which books and sources do you consider "canon"?
It's pretty much given that anything in the PHB and legendary FR0 Grey Box absolutely "belong" within and define the Realms. But I also very much like genasi, and I'm inclined towards accepting all sorts of flimsy after-the-fact pretenses for genasi being around. I don't ever read anything written by RAS - I find the mere notion of drow soap opera to be nauseatingly predictable and overdone - so, unsurprisingly, drow exist in (or at least under) my Realms but they aren't at all a central or popular racial choice among my players. Horny red 4E tieflings are more like a nursery tale than any kind of population in my Realms, simple and obvious monsters used to frighten small children into pliant submission. Warforged and dragonborn in my Realms? As the soldiers of mad liches perhaps, magically created or even summoned from other worlds, but not at all as your neighbours or adventuring companions ... not without a damned good backstory created more from opportunistic roleplaying than some scribbled powergamer notes. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Pazuzu
Seeker
Germany
61 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2012 : 19:17:52
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| I encounter following situation: when the players play a totally standard character the best and most entertaining role-play gaming will come through! So _usually_ I encourage my players to choose standard races AND standard classes, but I am open to anything! |
May your dice obey your will. - Gary Gygax (*1938 - †2008) |
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Which races do u allow and which books r they from
