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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2012 :  08:01:36  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Putting restrictions to the access of the Weave was logical---and should have been enough. Why would annihilating an entire race be necessary?

Every beginning has an end.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
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Posted - 26 Apr 2012 :  08:06:12  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's only logical if Mystryl could have convincingly understood and countered [on a celestial-level] what Karsus managed to achieve. The fact that she acted in the manner that she did, tells me that Karsus' mad-power grab was an unprecedented event in the history of mortal-divine affairs. She acted in the best interests of the entire scope of Weave to save the bounds of magic and it's intricate relationship with the Realms.

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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2012 :  08:07:34  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

I'm curious. What would be a less disastrous alternative?


There are virtually thousands of them...Two that are obvious: teleport to a place where Karsus could not reach (which would have required the same amount of time she used in killing herself; besides, she got more than enough time to do just that, as Karsus was busy fighting the phaerimm that dared rise and stop him); or simply cut Karus (and he alone) off the Weave. If she could do that to greater deities, why not to a mere mortal?

We don't know anything of the intimate details of the relationship between Mystryl and the Weave, and by extension, the Realms. And the Grand Folly of Karsus created unprecedented levels of chaos and confusion about how that intimate relationship works.

I don't believe we can assume that rules we've seen applied elsewhere in similar scenarios, could have just as easily be applied in this situation.


Are you implying that Mystryl was the idiot version of Mystra/Midnight, who easily cut off a greater deity (Talos) from the Weave with mere thought? Talos might not be as skillful as Karsus in terms of using the Art, but surely severing his access to the Weave required more firepower than doing the same to a mere mortal.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

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30284 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2012 :  10:54:11  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

I'm curious. What would be a less disastrous alternative?


There are virtually thousands of them...Two that are obvious: teleport to a place where Karsus could not reach (which would have required the same amount of time she used in killing herself; besides, she got more than enough time to do just that, as Karsus was busy fighting the phaerimm that dared rise and stop him); or simply cut Karus (and he alone) off the Weave. If she could do that to greater deities, why not to a mere mortal?

We don't know anything of the intimate details of the relationship between Mystryl and the Weave, and by extension, the Realms. And the Grand Folly of Karsus created unprecedented levels of chaos and confusion about how that intimate relationship works.

I don't believe we can assume that rules we've seen applied elsewhere in similar scenarios, could have just as easily be applied in this situation.


Are you implying that Mystryl was the idiot version of Mystra/Midnight, who easily cut off a greater deity (Talos) from the Weave with mere thought? Talos might not be as skillful as Karsus in terms of using the Art, but surely severing his access to the Weave required more firepower than doing the same to a mere mortal.



And when she did that, the Weave was stable, she was the only one in control of it, and no one was trying to take her the entire reason she existed. Not the same situation as Karsus -- not even close.

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
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Australia
31690 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2012 :  14:37:08  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

I'm curious. What would be a less disastrous alternative?


There are virtually thousands of them...Two that are obvious: teleport to a place where Karsus could not reach (which would have required the same amount of time she used in killing herself; besides, she got more than enough time to do just that, as Karsus was busy fighting the phaerimm that dared rise and stop him); or simply cut Karus (and he alone) off the Weave. If she could do that to greater deities, why not to a mere mortal?

We don't know anything of the intimate details of the relationship between Mystryl and the Weave, and by extension, the Realms. And the Grand Folly of Karsus created unprecedented levels of chaos and confusion about how that intimate relationship works.

I don't believe we can assume that rules we've seen applied elsewhere in similar scenarios, could have just as easily be applied in this situation.

Are you implying that Mystryl was the idiot version of Mystra/Midnight, who easily cut off a greater deity (Talos) from the Weave with mere thought?
Not at all.
quote:
Talos might not be as skillful as Karsus in terms of using the Art, but surely severing his access to the Weave required more firepower than doing the same to a mere mortal.

Not really. Talos had an established divine-level relationship with the Weave. I can appreciate that Mystryl already had the ability to competently handle cutting another deity off from the Weave.

Karsus's mad-power grab was a divine-intrusion... almost a form of divine-rape for lack of a better term. It was a volition to the very core of her being. Something she just wasn't properly prepared for.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14168 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2012 :  15:00:46  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You know, I figured-out that you can force those words back to black by using the [/black] code.

Black & Blue... this site really beats you up sometimes.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
2885 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2012 :  21:25:08  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

What blame does she share?


-Had Mystryl not ended her existence to sever the connection the spell created, some alternative would have taken place. The end result that is recorded in the history books, the ultimate fall of High Netheril, is on her, among other people. That's not to say that what she did wasn't ultimately best for herself, the Weave, the world, whatever, but to say she had no role in it would be inaccurate.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium

Edited by - Lord Karsus on 26 Apr 2012 21:26:32
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30284 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2012 :  21:55:06  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

What blame does she share?


-Had Mystryl not ended her existence to sever the connection the spell created, some alternative would have taken place. The end result that is recorded in the history books, the ultimate fall of High Netheril, is on her, among other people. That's not to say that what she did wasn't ultimately best for herself, the Weave, the world, whatever, but to say she had no role in it would be inaccurate.



There's a difference between saying she had no role in it, and saying it's all her fault.

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Eli the Tanner
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
148 Posts

Posted - 27 Apr 2012 :  01:26:13  Show Profile  Visit Eli the Tanner's Homepage Send Eli the Tanner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I like these discussions

Before the fall(-345 DR) the Terraseer appeared before Karsus and said to him:

"The goddess Mystryl is about to face her greatest challenge—one
that could alter the perception of magic for all time."


How do you folk reckon such foreknowledge influenced Karsus' decisions? Did Mystryl pass or fail her challenge?

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31690 Posts

Posted - 27 Apr 2012 :  01:34:30  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

What blame does she share?


-Had Mystryl not ended her existence to sever the connection the spell created, some alternative would have taken place.
Such as?
quote:
The end result that is recorded in the history books, the ultimate fall of High Netheril, is on her, among other people. That's not to say that what she did wasn't ultimately best for herself, the Weave, the world, whatever, but to say she had no role in it would be inaccurate.
Of course she had a role in it. But to assign blame to Mystryl when she was simply acting in the best interests of the rest of the Weave and the Realms, is also inaccurate.

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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
2885 Posts

Posted - 27 Apr 2012 :  02:39:14  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

There's a difference between saying she had no role in it, and saying it's all her fault.



-I don't think anyone has said that the fault for the Fall of High Netheril rests solely in her hands. Her actions, coupled with Karsus' actions, achieved that.

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

Such as?

-Such as anything we can reasonably entertain that does not end her existence as she did. As is the case with "What if?" situations, the possibilities are broad (I wouldn't necessarily say endless, because so many of the details we don't know, but...).

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

Of course she had a role in it. But to assign blame to Mystryl when she was simply acting in the best interests of the rest of the Weave and the Realms, is also inaccurate.


-That someone is acting in their percieved best interests, correctly or incorrectly in reality, doesn't remove their part in an event. Mystryl, by doing what she believed was in the best interest to herself, the Weave, the world, and whatever else, bears as much blame for what ultimately happened as the genesis of the spell itself- without her acting as she did, would not have played out as they did (one could argue they'd be worse, and more devastating, but that is a separate argument). If a police officer pulls out his gun and shoots and kills somebody who is pulling out their own gun to shoot the cop, the cop is "at fault" for the death of the other person just like that persons actions are "at fault" for their own death.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium

Edited by - Lord Karsus on 27 Apr 2012 02:43:49
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
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Australia
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Posted - 27 Apr 2012 :  03:18:25  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

Such as?

-Such as anything we can reasonably entertain that does not end her existence as she did. As is the case with "What if?" situations, the possibilities are broad (I wouldn't necessarily say endless, because so many of the details we don't know, but...).
That's fair enough. But at the same time, the fact that a deity, who is conceivably more than just what the mortals of the Realms can be, saw no other alternative, suggests to me, that there simply might not have been any other option to consider.
quote:
-That someone is acting in their percieved best interests, correctly or incorrectly in reality, doesn't remove their part in an event.
I maintained that Mystryl had a role in it. That's not the issue.
quote:
Mystryl, by doing what she believed was in the best interest to herself, the Weave, the world, and whatever else, bears as much blame for what ultimately happened as the genesis of the spell itself- without her acting as she did, would not have played out as they did (one could argue they'd be worse, and more devastating, but that is a separate argument).
Again, this is assuming that there was an alternative to the option Mystryl enacted. And, again, as I said above, if a deity couldn't conceive of another alternative to bringing down a civilisation in order to save the entire scope of Realmspace, then why should we consider a mortal could succeed in fathoming an alternative?

I can't see how Mystryl can be wholly blamed for this event, when it might have been the only option available to her for an action caused by another. In this case, Karsus. I could only assign blame to Mystryl if she deliberately chose the more violent and disruptive of options -- the fall of Netheril and the collapse of the Weave -- from a breadth of divine contingency plans -- which may have included more stable/less-reality-disrupting methods -- for when mortals attempted to wrest power from gods. And we just don't know whether that was truly the case here.

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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
2885 Posts

Posted - 27 Apr 2012 :  20:06:29  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

I can't see how Mystryl can be wholly blamed for this event...

-I don't think anyone is wholly blaming Mystryl's actions for the entirety of the what happened afterwards. It wasn't her fault alone. Blame lies with her, though, simply by being one of the two actors involved in the scenario, just like anything else.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

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Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
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Australia
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Posted - 28 Apr 2012 :  02:00:02  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ah.

The whole event really does need more Realmslore attention, I think. If only so we can know more of the particulars of just "how" the Mad-Power Grab of Karsus truly affected both Mystryl and the Weave.

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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe

Malaysia
552 Posts

Posted - 28 Apr 2012 :  10:37:59  Show Profile Send Xar Zarath a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I voted Aumvor because where the rest of the Empire was looking outward towards the stars and beyond, he looked inward on the aspects on death and dying. He is a pioneer in the necromantic arts and is still very much so. I think in terms of sheer raw power as well as arcane necromantic knowledge he beats quite a few of the necromancers out there...

Everything ends where it begins. Period.



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jordanz
Senior Scribe

509 Posts

Posted - 28 Apr 2012 :  14:16:38  Show Profile  Visit jordanz's Homepage Send jordanz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath

I voted Aumvor because where the rest of the Empire was looking outward towards the stars and beyond, he looked inward on the aspects on death and dying. He is a pioneer in the necromantic arts and is still very much so. I think in terms of sheer raw power as well as arcane necromantic knowledge he beats quite a few of the necromancers out there...



True I wonder if he and Szass Tam ever kick it.
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 29 Apr 2012 :  02:51:56  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

I'm curious. What would be a less disastrous alternative?


There are virtually thousands of them...Two that are obvious: teleport to a place where Karsus could not reach (which would have required the same amount of time she used in killing herself; besides, she got more than enough time to do just that, as Karsus was busy fighting the phaerimm that dared rise and stop him); or simply cut Karus (and he alone) off the Weave. If she could do that to greater deities, why not to a mere mortal?

We don't know anything of the intimate details of the relationship between Mystryl and the Weave, and by extension, the Realms. And the Grand Folly of Karsus created unprecedented levels of chaos and confusion about how that intimate relationship works.

I don't believe we can assume that rules we've seen applied elsewhere in similar scenarios, could have just as easily be applied in this situation.


Are you implying that Mystryl was the idiot version of Mystra/Midnight, who easily cut off a greater deity (Talos) from the Weave with mere thought? Talos might not be as skillful as Karsus in terms of using the Art, but surely severing his access to the Weave required more firepower than doing the same to a mere mortal.



And when she did that, the Weave was stable, she was the only one in control of it, and no one was trying to take her the entire reason she existed. Not the same situation as Karsus -- not even close.


Let's see...

[It only took Mystra mere seconds to cut Talos off the Weave.]

Karsus on his Avatar form was busy fighting the phaerimm who dared confront him...

The Weave was still on Mytryl's total control...

Mystryl had more than enough time to cut Karsus off the Weave...

Every beginning has an end.
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 29 Apr 2012 :  02:58:31  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

I can't see how Mystryl can be wholly blamed for this event...

-I don't think anyone is wholly blaming Mystryl's actions for the entirety of the what happened afterwards. It wasn't her fault alone. Blame lies with her, though, simply by being one of the two actors involved in the scenario, just like anything else.


Agreed. That's why I always use 'partly to blame.' Though the actors are not just two. If we examine it closely---the Netherese, the pherimm, Karsus, and Mystryl share the blame. The Netherese use magic so carelessly that it created magical storms that killed a number of phaerimm. In retaliation, the phaerimm cast the lifedrain. In the hope to rid of the phaerimm and their seemingly irreversible spell, Karsus tried to subsume Mystryl's divinity. And Mystryl...well, you know the rest of the story...

Every beginning has an end.
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 29 Apr 2012 :  03:01:36  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz

quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath

I voted Aumvor because where the rest of the Empire was looking outward towards the stars and beyond, he looked inward on the aspects on death and dying. He is a pioneer in the necromantic arts and is still very much so. I think in terms of sheer raw power as well as arcane necromantic knowledge he beats quite a few of the necromancers out there...


True I wonder if he and Szass Tam ever kick it.


Aumvor is beyond Szass Tam, in the same way the latter is way beneath Larloch.

Every beginning has an end.
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jordanz
Senior Scribe

509 Posts

Posted - 29 Apr 2012 :  04:09:23  Show Profile  Visit jordanz's Homepage Send jordanz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by jordanz

quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath

I voted Aumvor because where the rest of the Empire was looking outward towards the stars and beyond, he looked inward on the aspects on death and dying. He is a pioneer in the necromantic arts and is still very much so. I think in terms of sheer raw power as well as arcane necromantic knowledge he beats quite a few of the necromancers out there...


True I wonder if he and Szass Tam ever kick it.


Aumvor is beyond Szass Tam, in the same way the latter is way beneath Larloch.



Really I always saw them ar peers or rivals. Does Aumvor have feats that compare favorably to what Szass Tam displayed in Unholy?[
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30284 Posts

Posted - 29 Apr 2012 :  04:43:28  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

Let's see...

[It only took Mystra mere seconds to cut Talos off the Weave.]

Karsus on his Avatar form was busy fighting the phaerimm who dared confront him...

The Weave was still on Mytryl's total control...

Mystryl had more than enough time to cut Karsus off the Weave...



Karsus was not fighting anyone, he was suffering from the magic that he couldn't control. And it's canon that Mystryl was not in total control of the Weave.

In fact:

quote:
When Mystryl lost her ability to maintain the Weave's integrity, Karsus was ill-equipped to serve in her stead. The Weave began to fluctuate wildle, and the lands of Netheril and beyond were inundated with a flood of raw magic which surged and ebbed with far greater power and destructive force than had ever been seen before.
Mystryl sacrificed herself to save the Weave before the damage became irreparable.
(page 35, Powers & Pantheons, the write-up on Karsus)

From that same page:

quote:
Karsus's heart broke as he realized that his greed for the power of the deities themselves had caused the destruction of his home, his family, his friends, and his people.


So Karsus was not fighting anyone, Mystryl was not in full control, and did not have time for anything else. That's all canon.

Unless you're going to provide canon references, with sources, that says otherwise, then I'm going to stick with published Realmslore, not opinion.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 29 Apr 2012 04:43:59
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 29 Apr 2012 :  04:59:07  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

I'm too lazy right now to pick up Dangerous Games and quote the right parts. But I reread the whole trilogy fairly recently, so the scenes are rather fresh in my mind. Karsus was fighting the phaerimm on air when he rose to challenge Mystryl. The time given by such distraction should have been more than enough for her to do the most obvious alternative: cut Karsus off the Weave.

Every beginning has an end.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
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Posted - 29 Apr 2012 :  05:10:36  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


I'm too lazy right now to pick up Dangerous Games and quote the right parts. But I reread the whole trilogy fairly recently, so the scenes are rather fresh in my mind. Karsus was fighting the phaerimm on air when he rose to challenge Mystryl. The time given by such distraction should have been more than enough for her to do the most obvious alternative: cut Karsus off the Weave.

How?

The quotes Wooly provided above clearly note that Mystryl had lost control of the integrity of the Weave thanks to the Mad-Power Grab of Karsus.

So cutting Karsus off from the Weave kind of seems a little difficult when she no longer has the once-intimate ability to tweak and tinker with it, as she once did.

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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe

Malaysia
552 Posts

Posted - 29 Apr 2012 :  10:58:15  Show Profile Send Xar Zarath a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think in terms of Necromancy, Aumvor is without peer, though as Dennis has already pointed out, Aumvor is still a novice as compared to Larloch, this I attribute to the Nether Scrolls.

Everything ends where it begins. Period.



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Eli the Tanner
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
148 Posts

Posted - 29 Apr 2012 :  15:48:01  Show Profile  Visit Eli the Tanner's Homepage Send Eli the Tanner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
The quotes Wooly provided above clearly note that Mystryl had lost control of the integrity of the Weave thanks to the Mad-Power Grab of Karsus.

So cutting Karsus off from the Weave kind of seems a little difficult when she no longer has the once-intimate ability to tweak and tinker with it, as she once did.



I agree, once Karsus has cast his spell there is nothing Mystra could do to stop him anymore.

I'm curious about why she didn't know this would happen? and if she did why didn't she cut him off/stop him before he cast the spell?

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Edited by - Eli the Tanner on 29 Apr 2012 15:49:18
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