| Author |
 Topic  |
|
TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Apr 2012 : 09:42:02
|
"Rise of the Underdark"? This name sounds like something right from "Disastorm" movie.  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
 |
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2012 : 10:13:03
|
Well lolth did want (In 2nd) to even get human worshipers so control of surface realms clearly a goal. With that said it still does not appear she wants all Drow out of the underdark. Surface raids and gaining control of cities and lands on the surface clearly a way to expend some of her followers. Once either has been conquered it only takes a few to hold. For Drow the nights on the surface is no problem at all, during the daylight ability somewhat limited but not like fatal to a vampire.
The only foe besides AO might be the god of Elven Magic.
Lolth's children were to only ones that wished and taught return to the surface as a goal. Depending on who ended up with the twins portfolios it clearly is possible that Lolth now desires this as well.
We are looking at 5th Edition or maybe 4.5 transition on this book that has not been released yet. Well it does not appeal to me in the end it WotC trying to find income, making something that turns a profit is the main goal. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2012 : 10:26:47
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
The only foe besides AO might be the god of Elven Magic.
Lolth's children were to only ones that wished and taught return to the surface as a goal. Depending on who ended up with the twins portfolios it clearly is possible that Lolth now desires this as well.
Lets not forget Shar, or whatever legacy Mystra left.
Also, it appears that Corellon, not Lolth, ended up with the Masked Lady's (E and V) portfolio, but Lloth might have changed her mind about drow returning to the surface. Even though, as I said, drow nations based on Lloth's teachings sound very unlikely to me.
quote:
Once either has been conquered it only takes a few to hold
It wouldn't take just a few to hold the conquered land. Lets say the manage to seize a piece of Cormanthyr, the elves would obviously try to retake it with massive force, since they don't have war on other fronts. The drow, on the other hand, would split their resources among various zones, leaving scarce possibility to actually hold something (not to mention they'll have to defend their underground cities from other Underdark races which could exploit this moment to destroy the drow).
As you said, though, I think it's likely that if they saw that something makes them money, they wouldn't hesitate to ignore the reasons it would hardly happen. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 09 Apr 2012 10:44:12 |
|
|
|
Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2012 : 18:27:29
|
Lolth supposedly has 8 aspects now. I took a wild guess and was thinking maybe those aspects will also include the deities she's killed. Maybe the drow coming to the surface also include her attempting to steal the Masked Lady's portfolios too. Most likely it just has to do with Lolth attempting to claim Mystra's spot as ruler of the Weave.
I could see drow empire building. If her priestesses receive a command to conquer, they are going to do it. If a priestess or house were to sabotage the effort they would risk losing Lolth's favor as they would be disobeying the commands of Lolth. Perfect example is when old Matron Baenre killed another matron mother during the assault on Mithril Hall. While this normally may not have been an issue, she did so to the detriment of the campaign, and if that was the word of Lolth, she went against it and lost her favor. I've also always been under the assumption that the drow were more numerous on the mainland than the surface elves due to the Retreat, though this may have changed with their return. Given equal numbers, the elves of Myth Drannor would have a hard fight on their hands. Look how long it took them to kick the drow out of the Twisted Tower, which they had to do several times. |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2012 : 18:41:08
|
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
Lolth supposedly has 8 aspects now. I took a wild guess and was thinking maybe those aspects will also include the deities she's killed. Maybe the drow coming to the surface also include her attempting to steal the Masked Lady's portfolios too. Most likely it just has to do with Lolth attempting to claim Mystra's spot as ruler of the Weave.
I could see drow empire building. If her priestesses receive a command to conquer, they are going to do it. If a priestess or house were to sabotage the effort they would risk losing Lolth's favor as they would be disobeying the commands of Lolth. Perfect example is when old Matron Baenre killed another matron mother during the assault on Mithril Hall. While this normally may not have been an issue, she did so to the detriment of the campaign, and if that was the word of Lolth, she went against it and lost her favor. I've also always been under the assumption that the drow were more numerous on the mainland than the surface elves due to the Retreat, though this may have changed with their return. Given equal numbers, the elves of Myth Drannor would have a hard fight on their hands. Look how long it took them to kick the drow out of the Twisted Tower, which they had to do several times.
If they were going to invade only Cormanthyr, I could see it (and not so much. I guess some humans, like Cormyr or Dales, would support the elves fearing they'd be the next target of the drow). But it looks like the drow are going for massive scale war, to create many fronts at the same time but, by doing so, they'd split their resources too much, leaving vulnerable spots for their foes to exploit both on the surface and the Underdark. That, combined with drow treacherous and unstable nature, is the reason I don't see them getting much success in this war (what you said points at it: the fact that one matron killed another during a battle shows how stupid the drow way of thinking can be, no matter what Lloth suddenly says. Once she has modeled drow minds in a way, it's hard to have them behaving differently).
However, this is just fantasy so, possibly, everything could happen, no matter how difficult it'd be in RW. Who knows? Maybe WotC will actually put a drow-empire/nation in the Realms, but to me it'd be way too much. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 09 Apr 2012 19:18:40 |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2012 : 19:20:12
|
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
The concept at the core of the whole drow mentality is that an individual is intrinsically worthless, expendable and the only measure of worth is the power one has on the others. Everything a drow does is obsessively aimed to get more of it, leading to countless and endless internal struggles.
You can't build a nation on this idea: there is no sense of cooperation, no possibility of cultural growth (even though there's still place for innovation). They already have problems keeping struggles at bay in their towns (they weren't able to expand in the Underdark because of it), let alone in a whole nation. Such a nation would crumble in no time.
(we need a roll-on-the-floor smiley)
A nation lead by people who are only out for themselves, and display nepotism/favoritism on unimaginable scale, who take money and other 'gifts' of value to further their own personal agendas, use religion to keep their population in-check, and have no actual desire to lead or better the lives of their people... and you CAN'T believe that could exist? SERIOUSLY?
I can only think of one nation (EVER) that doesn't display precisely these qualities (although building silly manmade islands is a bit egotistical).
Anyhow, to steer this back to the Realms before I get in trouble - Thay is the perfect example of this, and there are dozens of lesser examples (Zhentil keep, Luskan). We also have had immense theocracies - Mulhorand and Unther as well, which practiced slavery and forms of a tier-based society (Castse systems).
______________________________________________________________________________
As for Evermeet - I don't think it has really changed at all - at least not how we mortals (non-magical folk) perceive it. The Feywild and Shadowfel (along with others) are dimensions - they exist in the same space that we (prime material) occupy. Just as a million cellphone conversations can all be happening 'overhead' at once, and yet everyone here's the one just for them (even though they are all taking place in the precise same space). A better example might have been broadcast TV - we only see what we are 'tuned into'.
Ergo, Evermeet exists in Faerie, and always has (and might even be the same place as Tintageer). When the world was Sundered, what the elves did was cause a piece of the continent to shift in just such a way so that it would end-up in the precise same location as Evermeet in the other dimension. You will recall that that piece of land was also connected to the mainland when the Elves/Eladrin first arrived - and their arrival point was the piece of land that mirrored Evermeet/Tintageer in the other dimension - they shifted dimensions, they did not move through physical space. All they did was reach back into the past, and use the first (deific) Sundering to place their arrival point off the coast, enabling them to have a 'secret homeland' (and the back lash from that is probably what happened to Tintageer). In fact, if you think of it that way, then Evermeet (and all the rest) did NOT drift away from faerun in the distant past, but rather, the landmass that became Faerun shattered and drifted west, leaving pieces behind (so that Evermeet occupies the same place in the universe it did when it was part of the coast of Merrouroboros.
The Elves, using high Magic, caused the 'dimensional wall' to 'bubble-out' from Faerie, so that a piece of that dimension became art of the prime material - it was being held their artificially, by magic, and allowed the Elves to still tap-into quite a bit of their fey heritage. Beneath this layer of Faerie was the original, untouched chunk of geography left behind by the continent - it was like placing a 'skin' over a 3-D model in modern computing. Obviously, that piece of land wasn't nearly as attractive as its Fey counterpart, which is what it looks like now that it has reverted back.
Thus, Evermeet was always living on 'borrowed time' - it was pulled into the material plane from Faerie, and when magic became destabilized, it snapped-back to original position in the Feywild. Another incarnation also must exist in the Shadowfel, and I would hazard to guess this is the Shadar-Kai homeland.
All of these places exist in the same space, just as every TV show (currently showing) is on your TV at the same time - you just have to 'tune in' to the right frequency, and you can see into the other places (just as many creatures - in past editions - from the ethereal plane could see into the Prime Material if they chose to focus on it).
Only a creature with power approaching a god (like an exarch) could handle seeing into multiple dimensions at the same time, without going insane (which is one of the many things Karsus hadn't counted upon- imagine suddenly being able to see every single frequency of the electromagnetic spectrum all at once... and thats just the tip of the iceberg of what a deity is always aware of).
Elven High-Mages, and Chosen like Elminster - probably could see beneath the veneer that was Evermeet to the underlying truth. The entire thing was like a massive illusion - and in D&D, illusions are real so long as you believe in them (it would work like the holodeck from Star Trek). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 09 Apr 2012 19:22:51 |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2012 : 19:36:53
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
The concept at the core of the whole drow mentality is that an individual is intrinsically worthless, expendable and the only measure of worth is the power one has on the others. Everything a drow does is obsessively aimed to get more of it, leading to countless and endless internal struggles.
You can't build a nation on this idea: there is no sense of cooperation, no possibility of cultural growth (even though there's still place for innovation). They already have problems keeping struggles at bay in their towns (they weren't able to expand in the Underdark because of it), let alone in a whole nation. Such a nation would crumble in no time.
(we need a roll-on-the-floor smiley)
A nation lead by people who are only out for themselves, and display nepotism/favoritism on unimaginable scale, who take money and other 'gifts' of value to further their own personal agendas, use religion to keep their population in-check, and have no actual desire to lead or better the lives of their people... and you CAN'T believe that could exist? SERIOUSLY?
The drow would take it to a whole new level. You'd have cities sabotaging other cities, factions warring with other ones even in times of war, etc... .
For example, if a drow nation was attacked, it wouldn't be difficult for me to believe that one city would let another one, exposed earlier to the attack, to fall because the latter is a rival of the former.
They wouldn't care that the attackers will come to them at the end, because the invader army would be weakened by their battle vs the other cities and the arrogance typical of the drow will lead them to think that the invaders wouldn't stand a chance with them.
Such an attitude would inevitably lead to the fall of that drow nation, especially if surface forces team up against it. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 09 Apr 2012 19:38:07 |
|
|
|
sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2012 : 19:38:34
|
| that would make since, since there is something in one of the cities there now that kills elves.... elf eater amybe?? |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
|
|
|
Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2012 : 20:06:01
|
| Who knows what other effects the faerzress had on the Drow, or even Lolth? It could be that the spell also made them infight, or maybe it also kept Lolths ambition from settling on the surface (it was Correlons magic after all). |
"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2012 : 20:25:36
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Thus, Evermeet was always living on 'borrowed time' - it was pulled into the material plane from Faerie, and when magic became destabilized, it snapped-back to original position in the Feywild. Another incarnation also must exist in the Shadowfel, and I would hazard to guess this is the Shadar-Kai homeland.
Interesting theory, but it ignores the fact that magic was destablized twice before -- particularly on one not-so-fine day in -339. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2012 : 21:18:21
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Interesting theory, but it ignores the fact that magic was destablized twice before -- particularly on one not-so-fine day in -339.
Different circumstances, though. As well, just because magic is destabilized it doesnt follow that every instance of such means all side effects and linked events must be the same each time. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2012 : 22:18:28
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Interesting theory, but it ignores the fact that magic was destablized twice before -- particularly on one not-so-fine day in -339.
Different circumstances, though. As well, just because magic is destabilized it doesnt follow that every instance of such means all side effects and linked events must be the same each time.
If something happens because magic is destabilized, it is only logical to assume it will happen on another occasion when magic is destabilized, or that it will happen when magic is offline -- the ultimate in being destabilized.
It doesn't matter how the power cord gets unplugged, the light is going out, either way. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2012 : 22:28:47
|
| But there was no spellplague this time. Nor was there a crashing of Abeir and Toril (was that caused by the spellplague?) |
"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
|
|
|
Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2012 : 22:30:48
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If something happens because magic is destabilized, it is only logical to assume it will happen on another occasion when magic is destabilized,
That's an argument for going forward, mind. It doesn't actually address why Evermeet didn't disappear before.
That is, just because something happened this time, doesn't mean it should have happened last time.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It doesn't matter how the power cord gets unplugged, the light is going out, either way.
So circumstances don't matter? Nor previous history?
I thought we liked the Realms because it's a little more nuanced than your average campaign setting.
I like Markus' idea because it suggests Evermeet's anchors (if we can use that word) may have been seriously rattled every time the goddess of magic died. This last death was the final straw. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2012 : 23:21:03
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If something happens because magic is destabilized, it is only logical to assume it will happen on another occasion when magic is destabilized,
That's an argument for going forward, mind. It doesn't actually address why Evermeet didn't disappear before.
That is, just because something happened this time, doesn't mean it should have happened last time.
So, the cause of somethign happening has happened before, but it's okay to assume different results? Why is it not logical to assume that if A causes B now, A should have caused B before? 
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It doesn't matter how the power cord gets unplugged, the light is going out, either way.
So circumstances don't matter? Nor previous history?
I thought we liked the Realms because it's a little more nuanced than your average campaign setting.
Of course previous history matters -- that's why I have an objection. If something happens because magic goes wiggy, the same thing should have happened on prior occasions when magic went wiggy. And the total absence of magic should have more of an effect.
Saying something didn't happen before but it did this time, given the same cause, isn't being nuanced. It's being inconsistent.
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
I like Markus' idea because it suggests Evermeet's anchors (if we can use that word) may have been seriously rattled every time the goddess of magic died. This last death was the final straw.
I could readily support this idea if there was anything in prior canon to support it. Indeed, I like that explanation -- it just isn't supported by anything in existing Realmslore. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 09 Apr 2012 23:22:38 |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
|
|
Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2012 : 00:04:17
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So, the cause of somethign happening has happened before, but it's okay to assume different results? Why is it not logical to assume that if A causes B now, A should have caused B before? (lumping these together here) Saying something didn't happen before but it did this time, given the same cause, isn't being nuanced. It's being inconsistent.
See, I don't think the "same" thing happened each time Mystra went down for the count, simply because it didn't.
1. Karsus' cast a spell.
2. Mystra in avatar form vs. Helm in his full power.
3. Cyric murdered Mystra (aka one god murders another).
To me these aren't the same thing because the Realmslore (such as it is) shows the events, circumstances and fallout for each event simply were not the same, especially as regards the first two events vs. the third, where the alignment of Abeir and Toril coincided with Mystra's murder and the subsequent unwinding of the Weave plus planar instability.
At this point you're probably itching to write that this doesn't matter, all that matters is that Mystra went offline. However, that's not true because the way in which Mystra was destroyed, as well as the timing, effected what happened next.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I could readily support this idea if there was anything in prior canon to support it. Indeed, I like that explanation -- it just isn't supported by anything in existing Realmslore.
Are you sure?
When you write "existing Realmslore" to me it reads as "prior Realmslore".
Granted, prior Realmslore doesn't state, "If or when the goddess of magic dies, such and such shall always happen, regardless of current Prime Material Plane conditions, regardless of the will of Ao, from now until forever, amen."
Current Realmslore (as found in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide) lays out the unique circumstances for why the Spellplague and all the planar chaos happened. Those circumstances, and their results, are different than the prior two events.
That's not contradictory, that's just how it happened. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 10 Apr 2012 00:06:41 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2012 : 00:26:29
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So, the cause of somethign happening has happened before, but it's okay to assume different results? Why is it not logical to assume that if A causes B now, A should have caused B before? (lumping these together here) Saying something didn't happen before but it did this time, given the same cause, isn't being nuanced. It's being inconsistent.
See, I don't think the "same" thing happened each time Mystra went down for the count, simply because it didn't.
1. Karsus' cast a spell.
2. Mystra in avatar form vs. Helm in his full power.
3. Cyric murdered Mystra (aka one god murders another).
To me these aren't the same thing because the Realmslore (such as it is) shows the events, circumstances and fallout for each event simply were not the same, especially as regards the first two events vs. the third, where the alignment of Abeir and Toril coincided with Mystra's murder and the subsequent unwinding of the Weave plus planar instability.
And what was the result of number 1? No magic at all. If magic was needed as an anchor, surely the absence of that anchor would have effects.
The result of number 2? Magic went wonky. If magic was needed as an anchor, surely that anchor becoming unstable would have been noticed by that which was anchored.
The result of number 3? Magic went wonky. Are we seeing a trend here? The conjuction of this retcon or that spell is irrelevant -- the net result has been the destabilization of magic. And if A causes B once, it should cause it on other occasions -- regardless of what caused A.
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I could readily support this idea if there was anything in prior canon to support it. Indeed, I like that explanation -- it just isn't supported by anything in existing Realmslore.
Are you sure?
When you write "existing Realmslore" to me it reads as "prior Realmslore".
What's your point? Existing Realmslore is all published lore, at the time of the statement.
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
Granted, prior Realmslore doesn't state, "If or when the goddess of magic dies, such and such shall always happen, regardless of current Prime Material Plane conditions, regardless of the will of Ao, from now until forever, amen."
That's not the argument I was making. I said if magic going wonky causes something to happen, it should have happened on prior occasions that magic went wonky. Hence my analogy that it doesn't matter how the power cord gets unplugged, the lamp is going out.
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
Current Realmslore (as found in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide) lays out the unique circumstances for why the Spellplague and all the planar chaos happened. Those circumstances, and their results, are different than the prior two events.
That's not contradictory, that's just how it happened.
Planar chaos and all that doesn't enter into it. Markus's explanation didn't say planar chaos causes the disappearance of Evermeet -- his explanation says magic going wonky did. That is what I am focusing on -- not why magic went wonky, but the fact that it did. It doesn't matter how the power cord came unplugged, the end result is still an absence of light.
Current Realmslore says magic went wonky. Current Realmslore says it's gone wonky before. Markus's idea says Evermeet left because magic went wonky. It's contradictory to say that the same cause happens three times, but only once does an effect happen.
If A causes B, then prior instances of A should have also caused B. How many times do I have to explain this simple logic?
Now, if you care to discuss my actual point, instead of things I didn't say... Markus's explanation would work for me if, in prior Realmslore, it had been described that Evermeet was effected by the periodic reboots of the Weave. If it had become entirely inaccessible, or briefly disappeared on prior occasions, then his explanation would make perfect sense.
Instead, we have magic going offline, without affecting Evermeet.
We have magic becoming unreliable for months, without affecting Evermeet.
And then, in this scenario, magic becomes unreliable again, and this time there is a catastrophic effect on a place that wasn't touched at all by prior events.
And that does not fit with existing Realmslore, nor is there logic in it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Lady Shadowflame
Learned Scribe
115 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2012 : 04:00:20
|
If Corellon has the stuff from the 'Masked Lady'... or more so, her death was indeed feigned and she's coming back, this could do a number on the drow. It's hard to escape, in the Underdark. On the surface? Way more chances to bolt - to run off and see the world.
May lead to drow vs drow, but it needn't follow that all the drow involved are evil... |
Save a lizard... Ride a drow.
|
|
|
|
Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2012 : 05:02:26
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Planar chaos and all that doesn't enter into it.
Why?
During the Spellplague, all manner of extra-planar and inter-planar activity was taking place. Planes were slip-sliding around and readjusting themselves relative to each other.
If magic hadn't gone haywire at the same time Abeir and Toril were in alignment, this wouldn't have happened.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Markus's explanation didn't say planar chaos causes the disappearance of Evermeet --
...and his explanation doesn't appear to ignore the planar destabilization, either. (Markus, please clarify.)
I simply assumed Markus (and you, though now I know that's not the case; you're ignoring it in favor of focusing on one phrase of Markus's) was working from the same base of lore as everyone else, i.e. what's written in the FRCG. It didn't appear to me he was overwriting anything.
The lack of magic was for all intents and purposes a trigger that pulled Evermeet back, because the conditions around that lack of magic made the situation just right for this to happen.
And even if there was no extra-planar brouhaha going on while magic shut down for a third time and Evermeet still slipped away, there are other plausible explanations for why it happened this time around.
There's no need for you to repeat your position. I understood you the first time. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2012 : 05:39:56
|
Why can't a bunch of backstabbing bastards not build a nation? We already have a perfect example of that: Thay. In many ways, the Red Wizards are far worse than drow. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2012 : 09:47:00
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Why can't a bunch of backstabbing bastards not build a nation? We already have a perfect example of that: Thay. In many ways, the Red Wizards are far worse than drow.
Because the drow would keep backstabbing even during war times.
Now, since the drow will have to take land away from some surface realm(s) in order to build their nation (provoking attacks from them) and since their mentality will keep them infighting even when under attack (as seen before) to increase their power, they'd quickly crumble because of those attacks. Even before they manage to build their nation.
That's the reason I can't see a drow nation happening. Unless surface races just sit and watch. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 10 Apr 2012 09:53:52 |
|
|
|
Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2012 : 13:10:25
|
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Why can't a bunch of backstabbing bastards not build a nation? We already have a perfect example of that: Thay. In many ways, the Red Wizards are far worse than drow.
Because the drow would keep backstabbing even during war times.
Now, since the drow will have to take land away from some surface realm(s) in order to build their nation (provoking attacks from them) and since their mentality will keep them infighting even when under attack (as seen before) to increase their power, they'd quickly crumble because of those attacks. Even before they manage to build their nation.
That's the reason I can't see a drow nation happening. Unless surface races just sit and watch.
Not necessarily. The drow invasion is going to put a whole new twist on how they interact. After all, this is something they've never done before. Raids and so on are not the same thing.
Consider that (if they are smart) Ed Greenwood will have been given a hand in all of this. If you've ever read Dark Warrior Rising, it describes how dark elven culture would have been if Ed had been given the director's scissors. Perhaps we will see some more of these Greenwoodian permutations in the drow's surface interactions and differences.
And this offers an opportunity to undo some of the horrible mistakes of the execrable drowpocalyse, one they should seize and run with.
While I agree with GK and Sage that the drow trope has been beaten nearly to death, I'm going to hang my long-held gold grognard medal on a hook for the time being. This has some potential to go places - I can only wonder what the Realms would be like if this had been 4th Edition's RSE instead of...what we got. |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2012 : 13:43:52
|
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
Not necessarily. The drow invasion is going to put a whole new twist on how they interact. After all, this is something they've never done before. Raids and so on are not the same thing.
Well, as I said, what I wrote in my previous posts is just my guess on what would probably happen. Of course, YMMV.
I hope that my guesses reveal to be wrong and that, as you proposed, this event changes somehow the drow way of thinking and interacting with other races because, as they are after 3e end events, I -personally- find them boring.
quote:
Consider that (if they are smart) Ed Greenwood will have been given a hand in all of this. If you've ever read Dark Warrior Rising, it describes how dark elven culture would have been if Ed had been given the director's scissors. Perhaps we will see some more of these Greenwoodian permutations in the drow's surface interactions and differences.
According to the preview ( http://www.wizards.com/dnd/drow.aspx#dnd/drow/3/dndfrcomics ), the new comic by Ed is going to have a role in this RSE. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
|
|
|
Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2012 : 15:31:26
|
This in from iO9:
Rise of the Underdark
It looks like it's NOT Realms specific, but (much like the Abyssal Plague), it's sweeping across all the worlds. And look! A portal between Eberron & Faerūn!
I think my friend is right. If 5E flops, expect D&D to be shut down and each of the settings gets their own M:tG Expansion/Plane. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
|
|
|
Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2012 : 16:04:57
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
This in from iO9:
Rise of the Underdark
It looks like it's NOT Realms specific, but (much like the Abyssal Plague), it's sweeping across all the worlds. And look! A portal between Eberron & Faerūn!
I think my friend is right. If 5E flops, expect D&D to be shut down and each of the settings gets their own M:tG Expansion/Plane.
As I am led to understand, the Eberron-Faerun portal is there specifically for the folks who play DDO. They pretty much have to do something like that, as Eberron's drow are completely different in every way save physiologically (and I am not at all impressed with the way they are presented).
They'd have to do a major 'ESE' to shoehorn Eberron's drow into the Lolthian model. Of course, I could be completely wrong, and they'll just ignore what's there, but they'd surely never do that, right?
Regardless, drow are their cash cow, and regardless of what happens, they'll be milked for all their worth. But I'm still going to approach this with an open mind, and let my grognard inner self rest, at least until I see the product of their efforts. As RSE's go, they could have done a lot, lot worse.
- OMH |
|
|
|
BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2012 : 18:54:25
|
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Now, since the drow will have to take land away from some surface realm(s) in order to build their nation (provoking attacks from them) and since their mentality will keep them infighting even when under attack (as seen before) to increase their power, they'd quickly crumble because of those attacks. Even before they manage to build their nation.
That's the reason I can't see a drow nation happening. Unless surface races just sit and watch.
Given what has just happened with the orc nation of Many-Arrows, I don't see the dwarves just sitting back and watching. They were reluctant partners to the Treaty of Garumn's Gorge from day one. Throw in some sort of disaster in the 1470s DR, and they left the League of Luruar altogether and became outright enemies of the orcs, once again. With that as background context, I don't see them sitting back on their haunches when the drow come rolling in.
The humans, infected by the former Lady Alustriel's and Drizzt's "let's wait and see and give 'em a chance" mentality, might. But the dwarves wouldn't.
Oh, when the drow
Come marchin' in
Oh, when the drow come marchin' in... |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 10 Apr 2012 18:55:57 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2012 : 19:04:22
|
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Oh, when the drow
Come marchin' in
Oh, when the drow come marchin' in...
Moradin, we'll kill them in numbers,
Oh when the drow come marching in!
 |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2012 : 01:59:58
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
A portal between Eberron & Faerūn!
Big deal! I've had a portal in place between my Eberron and my Toril since the release of the EBERRON setting in 2004.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2012 : 05:46:23
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Oh, when the drow
Come marchin' in
Oh, when the drow come marchin' in...
Moradin, we'll kill them in numbers,
Oh when the drow come marching in!
I will be appropriating this little ditty (credited), with your kind permission, of course. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Rise of the Underdark
