| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Mar 2012 : 02:28:15
|
If you plan on reading The Masked Witches by Richard Lee Byers and hate to see spoilers, then stop right here. This post contains major spoilers about the said book, and speculations on its sequel.
[Highlight to READ.]
The dead in Rashemen are rising. The durthans, and even the once rivals to the land---the Nars and the Raumathri. A pacthwork man, an extremely ugly and insane type of undead, leads this rising. And he serves the Eminence. Now the Witches of Rashemen wonder if the walking dead are part of Thay’s plan to conquer their beloved homeland…
Aoth Fezim, victim of the deception by one sly shadow magic user, was trapped in the Plane of Shadow. Using his superior vision, he searched for any sign of magical anomaly that might lead him to the Prime Material World…till he found a ‘doorway’ back home. Literally. His home. Thay. [That’s the very last word of the book.]
I asked Richard, and he said part of the sequel will be set in Thay… (Great news for all the fans, eh?)
Now, has Szass Tam allied with the Eminence to seize Rashemen? Though, I seem to recall the patchwork man noted that (I paraphrase here) they would endeavor to take Rashemen in as subtly or as quickly as possible without catching Thay’s attention. Is this an indication that they fear that Thay would interfere, the outcome of which would be most unfavorable to them? Say, Thay would give them more troops, or attack from the outside while they fight from within, in exchange for their future service, the term of which Szass Tam would determine. And if they refuse, Szass Tam would instead lend the ‘living’ chunk of his armies to the witches to repel the invaders, or, failing that, say, Rashemen’s troops force them to retreat, the moment they set foot on Rashemen’s border, the Thayans would obliterate them all.
There are indeed so many possibilities here. But is an alliance between these two undead forces really possible? What would each faction gain? For Szass Tam, I suppose it’s obvious: if he manages to conquer Rashemen (and that’s a big IF), he can make another set of Dread Rings to activate the Ritual of Unmaking. But how about for the Eminence? An eternal enslavement?
|
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 13 Mar 2012 02:39:50
|
|
|
Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2012 : 03:17:10
|
So what, all undead know each other? That's racist.  (I don't know, your theory actually seems sound.) |
Edited by - Eladrinstar on 13 Mar 2012 03:18:14 |
 |
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2012 : 17:14:25
|
Similar groups fight with each other far more often then dissimilar groups - they compete for the same 'resources' (which can be anything in a magical/D&D world - not just things we normally consider resources).
For example, two groups of sea-Elves are far more likely to fight over a region then a group of sea-Elves and drow. AFAIK, Drow and sea-Elves NEVER fight, simply because there is no reason to (even though they still may hate each other). Drow, of course, fight other drow far more often then they fight any other group.
Considering what's behind both groups (and that cryptic statement you quoted), I think it may be more likely Thay comes to Rashemens 'aid' ("politics make strange bed-fellows"). An enemy you know is far better then one you don't; Szass Tam is smart-enough to realize this (and the Eminence is about expansion - something Tam never had to worry about from his neighbors before).
Or not....
Seems like either Mister Byers read some of my own musings on 'future Rashemen' (in Brian's thread), or he happen to decided much the same as I did - darker Rashemen is a more interesting Rashemen. I was going to go for a "enemy of my enemy is my friend" vibe as well. Depending on how he spins all of this, it might be quite good (I can't recall if I've ever read any of his other FR contributions, aside from the short stories). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 13 Mar 2012 17:16:21 |
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3736 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2012 : 22:06:44
|
| -As long as their end goals are similar-but-seperate, I don't see why two different factions that primarily use Undead wouldn't ally with each other. For leaders, it's probably easier since their forces are Undead- they don't really have to compete with each other over resources, they don't really have to worry about underlings not getting along with each other. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2012 : 23:31:46
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
For example, two groups of sea-Elves are far more likely to fight over a region then a group of sea-Elves and drow. AFAIK, Drow and sea-Elves NEVER fight, simply because there is no reason to (even though they still may hate each other). Drow, of course, fight other drow far more often then they fight any other group.
Drow don't need a reason to fight someone.
I think the reason drow and sea-elves don't fight is because they live in two different environs. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2012 : 23:51:13
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Considering what's behind both groups (and that cryptic statement you quoted), I think it may be more likely Thay comes to Rashemens 'aid' ("politics make strange bed-fellows"). An enemy you know is far better then one you don't; Szass Tam is smart-enough to realize this (and the Eminence is about expansion - something Tam never had to worry about from his neighbors before).
Or not....
Seems like either Mister Byers read some of my own musings on 'future Rashemen' (in Brian's thread), or he happen to decided much the same as I did - darker Rashemen is a more interesting Rashemen. I was going to go for a "enemy of my enemy is my friend" vibe as well. Depending on how he spins all of this, it might be quite good (I can't recall if I've ever read any of his other FR contributions, aside from the short stories).
The existence of the durthans was probably supposed to make Rashemen dark, or shadowy, at best. But the Power-That-Be decided they were uncool and so they wiped them all out.
And now they're bringing them back. Hah. Surprise.
I wouldn't mind if Richard makes Rashemen a darker realm, but I wouldn't want it to be permanent, either. The hidden ruling body of the land serve three lawful good (or neutral) deities. One would have to make them 'corrupted' by magical malady for them to turn their backs to their patrons. Also, the land itself is home (or at the very least, a 'conduit world') to both dark and 'light' fey. Transforming the realm into a dark version of itself would drive the latter away.
I'm not sure though if the witches would ever accept any aid from Thay. Their distrust towards them knows no bounds. Though I suppose they'd beg help from Aglarond, now that its Witch-Queen is back and (relatively) sane. Perhaps the presence of the Aglarondan representatives in the novel above is hint enough that sooner or later, the hathrans would come begging help at The Simbul's feet.
Or maybe we're underestimating the hathran's might? In the book, it's hard to estimate their collected strength, because only two were actively showing their abilities.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
For leaders, it's probably easier since their forces are Undead- they don't really have to compete with each other over resources, they don't really have to worry about underlings not getting along with each other.
The question is: what would each gain after they win the war? Szass Tam would need the entire land of Rashemen if he is to follow the geographical precision required in erecting the Dread Rings. Hence, he wouldn't share even a square foot of land to the Eminence. So what would the Eminence gain for their trouble? A gentle tap on their shoulders? |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 13 Mar 2012 23:58:03 |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2012 : 00:53:52
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
For example, two groups of sea-Elves are far more likely to fight over a region then a group of sea-Elves and drow. AFAIK, Drow and sea-Elves NEVER fight, simply because there is no reason to (even though they still may hate each other). Drow, of course, fight other drow far more often then they fight any other group.
Agreed.
Though, I could see the potential for conflict between surface drow and the marel should the dark elves coming calling to some of the magical underwater ruins said to be inhabited by the marel. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3736 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2012 : 02:12:53
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
The question is: what would each gain after they win the war? Szass Tam would need the entire land of Rashemen if he is to follow the geographical precision required in erecting the Dread Rings. Hence, he wouldn't share even a square foot of land to the Eminence. So what would the Eminence gain for their trouble? A gentle tap on their shoulders?
-I don't know the details of what's going on in the specific books in question, but as long as it's something mutually beneficial. Maybe Tam would allow the dead killed in a war with Rasheman to be added to the Eminance's ranks, empowering them. Maybe Tam is willing to share with them some of the deeper secrets of Lichdom, or something else Undead related in that vein? The possibilities are numerous. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2012 : 02:59:19
|
Evil powers rarely work with each other (its one of the major strengths of 'goodly powers'). Even when they do, its only a matter of time before one or the other betrays the alliance.
What does Szass Tam have to gain by allowing a group who want to control 'everything undead' to move next door to him?
No, I don't see it. Evil is about control, not compromise. There was a great scene in an X-man comic once, where Magneto meets Dr. Doom... they didn't like each other at all (it was interesting, in that both felt he wasn't evil, but the other one was).
Anyhow, there can only be one 'chief' - Tam definitely wouldn't settle for anything less. On the other hand, he may no longer have any 'worldy concerns'? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2012 : 04:13:48
|
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
The question is: what would each gain after they win the war? Szass Tam would need the entire land of Rashemen if he is to follow the geographical precision required in erecting the Dread Rings. Hence, he wouldn't share even a square foot of land to the Eminence. So what would the Eminence gain for their trouble? A gentle tap on their shoulders?
-I don't know the details of what's going on in the specific books in question, but as long as it's something mutually beneficial. Maybe Tam would allow the dead killed in a war with Rasheman to be added to the Eminance's ranks, empowering them. Maybe Tam is willing to share with them some of the deeper secrets of Lichdom, or something else Undead related in that vein? The possibilities are numerous.
Perhaps. Well, he could offer the Eminance Thakorsil's Seat, the Moon Orb, and other magical items of note; some powerful necromantic spells, like creating a dream vestige; and a servant as brilliant as Xingax to help them create an undead factory.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
On the other hand, he may no longer have any 'worldy concerns'?
He has. Quite a lot, actually. Erecting the new set of Dread Rings needs worldly resources, not to mention worldly battles against several power groups, including the Shadovar. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 14 Mar 2012 04:14:29 |
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3736 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2012 : 04:27:54
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Evil powers rarely work with each other (its one of the major strengths of 'goodly powers'). Even when they do, its only a matter of time before one or the other betrays the alliance.
What does Szass Tam have to gain by allowing a group who want to control 'everything undead' to move next door to him?
No, I don't see it. Evil is about control, not compromise. There was a great scene in an X-man comic once, where Magneto meets Dr. Doom... they didn't like each other at all (it was interesting, in that both felt he wasn't evil, but the other one was).
Anyhow, there can only be one 'chief' - Tam definitely wouldn't settle for anything less. On the other hand, he may no longer have any 'worldy concerns'?
-It seems pretty clear that it's for some mutual goal. Evil (especially lawful evil) is crafty and cunning, and not dumb. As long as interests cross, there's no reason to augment your own abilities with those of like minded allies (pawns?). During the Onslaught Saga, Dr. Doom, Apocalypse, and various other villains teamed up with the Avengers, X-Men, and others to stop Onslaught. It was very temporary, but all parties involved saw mutual benefit in allying (using?) each other. Bishop and Stryfe teamed up to stop Cable and Hope Summers. Both were using each other, but their interests overlapped, and it was most prudent to team up, rather than work independently towards the same end goal. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2012 : 04:32:26
|
...And the selfish Zulkirs themselves did team up for a common cause. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3736 Posts |
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2012 : 04:43:49
|
Oh, perhaps Markus forgot his previous post: "politics make strange bed-fellows." |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2012 : 15:07:20
|
Markus rarely forges anything.
Almost everything I've posted in the past year was from memory alone.
Markus also hates people who refer to themselves in the first person, so he's going to go beat himself up now.
On-Topic
You guys see it, I don't. Don't matter - none us have any control over what Byers writes, so we will eventually learn the 'truth' of things. And although I'm just not buying a alliance between the two, I can think of one way it would work... so long as the 'eventual goal' of both groups is completely different.
What, precisely, was Szass Tam trying to accomplish in Thay with the Dread-rings? I have feeling I know how things are going to pan-out for the 5e setting, if it's what I think.
For him and Elminster both.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 15 Mar 2012 15:07:46 |
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3736 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2012 : 22:16:40
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
What, precisely, was Szass Tam trying to accomplish in Thay with the Dread-rings? I have feeling I know how things are going to pan-out for the 5e setting, if it's what I think.
-Have no clue, but wasn't that how Szass Tam basically took over Thay, turning it into a giant Undead Mordor? Some kind of powerful necromantic focus. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2012 : 23:49:13
|
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
What, precisely, was Szass Tam trying to accomplish in Thay with the Dread-rings? I have feeling I know how things are going to pan-out for the 5e setting, if it's what I think.
-Have no clue, but wasn't that how Szass Tam basically took over Thay, turning it into a giant Undead Mordor? Some kind of powerful necromantic focus.
Not quite. They're not the means, but rather the reason. The bulk of Szass Tam's army are undead, so there's really no need to maintain the 'health' of the land.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
What, precisely, was Szass Tam trying to accomplish in Thay with the Dread-rings? I have feeling I know how things are going to pan-out for the 5e setting, if it's what I think.
For him and Elminster both.
I covered this before in one of my Thay/Zulkirs-centric threads. It was you (and Beast) who asked it there. [And now you're saying you rarely forget anything.] That was a lenghty reply, but in a nutshell:
Szass Tam erected the Dread Rings to cast the Ritual of Unmaking, a complex ritual discovered by an ancient archmage, Fastrin, which draws power from the Weave and energies from various planes. Each Dread Ring exists both as a physical thing (a fortress) and a concept (something that exists in a different reality). [The zulkirs managed to destroy one concept, thereby disrupting the pattern which the Rings operated upon...] |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2012 : 22:55:01
|
Actually, I don't remember that thread or your response - it may have been one I didn't get back to... unless I responded to it, in which case I'm going senile.
I only dug-up this thread because I found an answer for your OP:
quote:
From Pg.252 of the 4e FRCG -
Streetwise DC 40: The Eminence is not friendly with other groups, cults, or nations of undead. It was ascendant in Abeir but has made contact during the last decade with Faerûn. Now Araunt is aware of such groups as the Twisted Rune, the Cult of the Dragon, and Thay. Since then, the secret kingdom has begun a slow campaign to bring all of these, even Thay, into Araunt. More than one skirmish has already been fought.
I think that answers that. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 18 Apr 2012 22:55:19 |
|
|
|
Veritas
Learned Scribe
209 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2012 : 23:53:14
|
| Also I'm now taken with the concept of "sea-drow" for sea-elves to wage war against. |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 12:26:26
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Actually, I don't remember that thread or your response - it may have been one I didn't get back to... unless I responded to it, in which case I'm going senile.
I only dug-up this thread because I found an answer for your OP:
quote:
From Pg.252 of the 4e FRCG -
Streetwise DC 40: The Eminence is not friendly with other groups, cults, or nations of undead. It was ascendant in Abeir but has made contact during the last decade with Faerûn. Now Araunt is aware of such groups as the Twisted Rune, the Cult of the Dragon, and Thay. Since then, the secret kingdom has begun a slow campaign to bring all of these, even Thay, into Araunt. More than one skirmish has already been fought.
I think that answers that.
Then Szass Tam would most likely give aid to Rashemen, and the latter would be hesitant at first, but eventually would accept it.
Tam can tolerate unfriendly neighbors---he's surrounded with them---but never an aggressive one. If the Eminence contents itself on conquering Rashemen, then he'd probably let them be. But he has a mind of a conqueror as well, and knows too well that the Eminence won't stop from there. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 18:25:59
|
The Ilythiiri had no love of the sea elves when the Sahuagin were created.
IIRC, the dread rings in Thay are toast, and he can't create new ones there. Isn't he making new ones in the Neverwinter area now? |
"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 21:33:03
|
Yes. And until now I don't know why RAS chose that area. Not only is it far from Thay (and therefore extremely difficult to defend), it's also near the several powerful nations that are likely to stop Szass Tam, Shade included. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 19 Apr 2012 21:33:39 |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2012 : 15:57:53
|
You just answered your own question.
They had to place the story somewhere where it would be very interesting, and USEFUL. How many campaigns ever reached Thay-proper? They are bringing Thay to us, now (just as they did with Kara-Tur).
I'm not a big fan of them 'shrinking' the setting in this manner. I'm not really seeing the 'change in direction' 5e is supposedly taking. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 20 Apr 2012 18:02:45 |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 02:46:57
|
They don't need to bring Thay to the rest of the world. What's the purpose of (mass) teleportation?! |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2012 : 10:44:17
|
| To keep "revitalizing" the setting and keeping it "fresh"??? |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
|
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2012 : 18:38:46
|
Fresh is over-rated.
When I was kid, I like the movie Logan's Run
Now, not so much. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2012 : 02:43:24
|
Does Innarlith---that obscure city-state featured in Phil Athans' The Watercourse Trilogy---still exist? If so, Szass Tam could have easily conquered it and used it for his Dread Rings. One Dream Vestige would be enough for the job. That land lacks the proper wizards and friendly neighbors to defend it in time of crisis.
Why choose a location (Neverwinter) so near Faerun's most powerful nations? He maybe vain, but he's not stupid. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2012 : 10:49:08
|
| The use of Neverwinter was something of a plot point i think for RAS... Guess they didn't coordinate? |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
|
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2012 : 01:35:18
|
Not at all. Richard said he didn't even know his Dread Rings are being used until I and others asked him about it. Someone should be in charge of overseeing continuity in the novel line. I understand they had it before. Why can't they assign one now? |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2012 : 04:29:51
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Not at all. Richard said he didn't even know his Dread Rings are being used until I and others asked him about it. Someone should be in charge of overseeing continuity in the novel line. I understand they had it before. Why can't they assign one now?
It is my opinion, based on how loose they've played with continuity since the advent of 3E, that continuity isn't as important to WotC now as it once was. I've no concrete proof of this, but I've seen enough to be convinced. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2012 : 06:59:06
|
| Would it be 3e lore you are referring to Wooly? |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
|
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Two Gigantic Undead Forces: Allies? (Spoilers)
