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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Mar 2012 : 21:08:35
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Hello fellow scribes,
My campaign (present date mid-Nightal, 1370 - Pathfinder game system) is about to take a detour into the Underdark (Northdark) with a stop at the trading post of Mantol-Derith. The PCs, who are in the guise of a surface trading caravan lead by deep gnome guides out of Blingdenstone, are seeking to stock up on surface goods for sale to the various factions at the outpost. While I have the original 2E Menzo boxed set's description of trade in the area (plus pretty much everything else 2E and 3E on the subject), I can't quite find a comprehensive list of surface goods and their Underdark 'going price' or 'general mark-up'. I want to be sure I don't over/under value their efforts bringing in casks of liquors, wood, paper goods, foods, smoke powder weapons, craft items, magic items and the like.
Anyone else grapple with this issue and find a decent solution?
This non economics major DM would be most appreciative. Lol.
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Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2012 : 21:25:36
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Well, the in-game answer is "whatever they can get away with charging." Which obviously doesn't help you much.
I'd start with at least a 500% mark-up and go from there, depending on what the trade good is and whether it has an Underdark equivalent. Wood, for instance, has an underground substitute in certain fungi, so would be less expensive. Smokepowder, however, is completely unknown, so the price for it would be literally obscene. Noble bidding wars and assassins in the night obscene.
Things like food would fall in between. It's a luxury, and it's both perishable and non-renewable, so it would be expensive, but it's not unique, so it wouldn't be as bad. Depends on what it was, though. Spices could be worth their weight in gold or more.
Sorry I don't have anything more specific. I'll be interested to see what other scribes have to offer. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2012 : 21:25:47
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D&D never dealt with economics well. There from time to time were comments about supply and demand for small communities.
Things like only 1d4 daggers could be purchased and price was 150 percent normal price if there was one left to purchase.
There are other examples I am sure, however I have never seen a clear guideline. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2012 : 22:18:39
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Hi, Kris.
This happens to be a topic I've discussed with Ed, and I can tell you this much: the priciest non-slave goods in most drow cities of the Underdark are well-preserved citrus fruits and spices (the fruits are often coated in clay and then fabric-bagged, and then packed in carrychests or handkegs full of edible oils, to keep the air from them), followed by cheeses, superior-make iron tools, and lumber suitable for carving/furniture and structural work, followed by timber suitable for fuel.
I haven't yet consulted Ed for more, but I think Hoondatha has everything right for scarcity/utility/prices, and the base markup.
love,
THO |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2012 : 22:44:23
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Whatever you do, take care that the markup of goods that successful merchants take down there more than once is enough to cover the cost of the merchant's time, the return on investment on the wagons, animals and hardware used, the wages of drivers and guards and the risk of losing it all every trip.
This means that if being a guard on such a caravan is an exciting, dangerous and well-paid work, the difference between what the merchant bought his goods for and what he thinks he can get for them has to be a total of at least three times the total cost for the whole caravan, and may be much more than that.
If the merchant is risking his own life in going with it, it makes sense for him to invest all his savings in the trip. After all, if the caravan is taken, he'll be dead or a slave anyway. This means a high total value of goods and the best guards that money can buy to guard them. If the caravan master is a hired man, however, the investor might prefer the economise on security and instead accept that only half his caravans make it through and the rest are written off as operating losses.
In either case, though, take care to avoid having someone take a fifty-fifty risk of losing everything and paying thousands of gold pieces of guards and mages, just to sell five thousand gold pieces worth of stuff for ten thousand down there.
That way, his profit margin quickly becomes zero and he would be risking his life for nothing at all. |
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 00:10:46
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Icelander,
Excellent analysis! The PCs are merely pretending to be merchants (and merchant guards) as a cover to get them into Mantol-Derith so they might acquire an ancient Elven Kiira (sought after by Qilue Veladorn, their patron in this matter) that found it's way into the trade center in the hands of Amryyr Yauntyrr of Skullport. Their desire to enhance the veracity of that cover, and make some coin in the process (there are ten PCs, possessed of a spectrum of alignments...), are what had me asking my question.
Hoondatha,
I think the 500% markup and the rarity tests are excellent suggestions as well! Thanks.
THO,
Lady, thank you (as always) for your insights! I'd be delighted to see what else Ed might have to say on the subject. As one of my players pointed out, "the sheer level of minute detail with which Ed invests the Realms half convinces us it's a real place!". (I'll continue to do my best to get them the other 50% of the way). Lol. |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7966 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 00:26:25
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Those sorts of risks and markups are fairly standard fare for travelling merchants in the Realms, I suppose to some degree they're already factored into the price of goods. Although I agree that travel through the Underdark is generally far more perilous than travel through areas infested by monsters, bandits, and pirates ... still, the final risks (partial or total loss of goods and profits, capture, torture, even death) are very much the same to the merchant in every instance.
Consider that merchants will bring goods purchased in (or en-route to/from) the Underdark to their next destinations, indeed most merchants purchase goods from each other at every trading site (regardless of the actual origins of the goods), and no merchant will ever travel with empty wagons whenever he can avoid it. Smarter merchants will measure their wealth in terms of goods and property; they'll have surprisingly little actual coin in their coffers yet many wagons full of bulky valuable commodity junk - valuable only to those who know and how and where to sell it. Outlaws might demand all the coin and jewels (and alcohol), but they generally have little interest in handcarved furniture, woven tapestries, exotic fruits and spices, and obscure esoterica of interest only to collectors and mages.
Smarter bandits tend towards special arrangements, extorting "taxes" and "tolls" in exchange for allowing passing merchants to travel through their turf otherwise unmolested. Smarter merchants sometimes accomodate such arrangements, since a case of liquor or pouch of silvers added to the cost of each trip might still be preferable (and cheaper) than replacing lost and damaged goods, guards, and profits. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 11 Mar 2012 00:37:15 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 00:34:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Those sorts of risks and markups are fairly standard fare for travelling merchants in the Realms, I suppose to some degree they're already factored into the price of goods. Although I agree that travel through the Underdark is generally far more perilous than travel through areas infested by monsters, bandits, and pirates ... still, the final risks (total loss of all goods, even death) is much the same in all instances.
They may be factored into the price, but DMs have to keep in mind that this means that it will not be worth it to transport any good to another location unless the price difference is more than the cost of transport, guarding it and the assumption of the risk of losing the cargo.
For it to be worth to ship bulk cargo that isn't all that expensive, the risks of losing the ship, wagon and the merchant's own life on the way have to be minute indeed. Any route where a significant number of caravans or ships are lost to bandits, pirates or monsters... well, the profit margin had better be enough to make up for and, not to mention enough to offer wages that tempt caravan masters and guards to risk death every trip.
As imported goods on most of the surface are incredibly reasonably priced compared to real world medieval and early modern eras, one must conclude that as long as they stay on recognised routes and have the standard security precautions in place, cargo ships and caravans are very rarely lost on the surface.
That isn't implausible. The state of naval technology in the Realms is at 18th century standards, which means that storms are rarely problematic for the bigger shipping interests and pirates probably try for the maverick captains who skirt the slow and safe routes in trying to cut down their times. As for caravans, while everyone knows about one that was attacked, I imagine that nine out of ten never even have their guards draw swords and most of those who do encounter danger are easily able to handle it. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Edited by - Icelander on 11 Mar 2012 00:36:49 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7966 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 00:51:21
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The main function of caraven guards is show of force, a deterrant to would-be attackers, any incident where steel was drawn is probably talked about all season, any incident involving actual combat probably leaves few if any survivors.
Merchants would rather travel in grand caravans, many wagons defended by a collective army of guards - some merchants and mercenary groups probably specialize in such escort work, charging a small per-wagon fee for any who join their convoy. And such work can be highly lucrative in the highest-risk areas, seasoned veterans can fend off all but ambushes made by dragons or the monsters/outlaws who have large and organized forces of their own.
I expect that smuggling of contraband goods is always the riskiest and most lucrative pastime of certain merchants, and in the Realms these would likely employ magical methods of concealment and transport wherever possible. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 01:25:02
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Interesting. THO I'd be curious to know what the going prices are for slaves in a drow city. I always figured since drow place absolutely no value on the life of slaves they must be pretty cheap to butcher them at will. Something like 5 gold for a goblin etc or is that too cheap?
As for trade goods, I'd check Aurora's Catelogue and a 500% markup seems good. A merchant could probly get 10x the price on certain really rare goods. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7966 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 01:52:04
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A slave's price would depend on quality, I suppose. Goblinoids might be common the region, whereas surface elves might be exotic. The slave might possess valuable skills and attributes useful in kitchens, workshops, mines, or bedrooms. The slave might possess valuable knowledge, could perhaps even serve as a tutor. The slave might useful for nothing except as a cadaver to provide anatomical study and necromantic spell components.
Affluent people often obtain the best they can afford, and most are willing to pay a small premium for quick and convenient problem-free purchases. I'd say teams of goblin labourers would be available for a handful of gold (or even just "rented" at daily rates measured in silvers, with the agreement that you feed them once before returning them to their owner, and that you pay a penalty for each one you maim or kill) while the price of artisan slaves who've mastered a craft might be 5-10x more than the cost of simply hiring the sorts of services they would provide. Slaves are probably (mis)treated very much the same as pets - indeed, many slave-owners probably treat their pets much better than their slaves - some might be pampered to ridiculous extremes, many (if not most) would be abused or abandoned once their novelty wore off. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 11 Mar 2012 01:55:15 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 02:39:12
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Unless there is a short-term glut on a slave-market caused by warfare or some other factors that make slaves very easy to obtain, slaves are worth around five times what they could earn as free men in a year, minus the cost of keeping them for that time.
Slaves are a capital investment, no different from real estate or tools in an economic sense. As such, they must generally provide a return on that investment. As slaves are a less safe long-term invesetment than real estate or even buildings, this must happen faster for them than many other assets.
For a goblin slave with no valuable skills, his yearly wage would be less than a human day-labourer, as he is not as strong. To compensate, however, he costs less to feed and house. The difference in disposition depends on the individual human or goblin, assuming a wash, I would expect that a goblin slave with no special skills was slightly less expensive than a human one.
In either case, it is established that an unskilled labourer can earn a copper piece an hour in any city, with lunch thrown in and possibly even extra food in the evening if he works long enough. This translates into ca 30 gp per year. Subtract housing and maybe a little extra food, and we're looking at a human slave not costing less than 100 gp at minimum. That is, unless he is unwilling to work, in which case he is worthless.
A goblin slave might be half that, though a case might be made that an industrious one provides more work per copper in feeding, so they ought to be worth 60-70 gp. |
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 05:08:00
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On the subject of slave prices, there are a number of good game sources (and interweb discussions - one of which is right on this site!) on that issue. I'm lucky enough to have a player who is doing his PhD work on the history of the American slave trade, so I had an excellent person to bounce the basic economic rationale for the setting slave prices off of when I needed to. As I mentioned (or maybe I didn't actually say this, but merely implied it), the players recently spent a fair amount of time in the Promenade near Skullport. The first part of the present 'mission for Quile' was actually a slave rescue operation where the PCs had to find a way to liberate an old contact of Quile's, a female Deep Gnome who had been transporting the Kiira she had recently obtained to Quile when her caravan was overrun by Duergar and she was sold into slavery in Skullport (while the Kiira was sold separately to another buyer).
I worked up information on the likely flow of slaves into and out of Skullport through the main markets near the port, and determined that 'high value' slaves, such as skilled labor, slaves of great beauty, rare races and classes, and other such beings would be sold through the auspices of the 'Iron Ring' in batches at periodic 'invitation only' private auctions. Representatives of each of the major slaving factions of the port would attend (faction leaders or agents sent in their stead) as would certain 'visiting' buyers or sellers (mercenary groups, Red Wizards, Luskanites, etc) who brought valuable slaves of their own for sale or who placed a deposit of sufficient size and obtained credentials sufficient to appear as reputable slave buyers. The consortium (the Iron Ring) conducted the auction (and took it's administrative cut), set a base price for each slave, and then let bidding between the buyers set the final market price. So, you'd have a minimum floor of between 1500 and 5000 gold depending on the rarity of the slave, with the market driving the price as high as prices would bear. This allowed for the natural competitive rivalries between factions to further inflate prices.
The PCs obtained adequate credentials to enter the auction as outside buyer representatives of a southern mercenary concern (seeking rare acquisitions for their gladiatorial games). However, in the end the PCs ended up having to 'steal' the Deep Gnome from her buyer, Malakuth Tabuirr (the head of the male drow faction in the city) during transport as the bidding slid out of their reach owing to a 'friendly rivalry' between Malakuth and an incubus acting as the agent for Transtra, the owner of the House of the Long Slow Kiss. The most valuable slave sold in that batch was a female sun elven child (of an age equal to between 6 and 8 in human terms) who had been provided for sale as part of a lot from a visiting Red Wizard of the School of Enchantment. She (her name was Laflanna, or 'daughter of the moon' in elven) was a VERY rare find indeed, and ended up selling for the absurdly high price of nearly 45,000 gold. This was owing to the fact that she became the subject of a biding war between the drow factions in town, which ended with the local leader of the House Tanor'Thal, lead by her pride and her religious devotion, buying her as a pledged sacrifice to Lolth.
All of this is a long winded (and slightly exhibitionistic, Lol) way of saying that life can certainly be cheap for a slave, but if the slave is rare enough to be in great demand, prices can get very high very quickly. As always, Caveat Emptor! |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 05:17:17
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| (Oh, and lest you think my players completely heartless, poor Laflanna's life did not actually end under the sacrificial knife on an altar to Lolth. However, how she avoided that fate is, as they say, a tale for a different thread.) |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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Help with Underdark/Surface Trade Goods Prices?
