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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe

USA
196 Posts

Posted - 29 Feb 2012 :  04:29:12  Show Profile Send Eladrinstar a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
It's always been interesting to me that the Realms feels so post-apocalyptic. Obviously centuries afterwards, when things have stabilized, but it just seems like so many places in the Realms are the remnants of militaristic and magical empires. It makes the modern (1300s) dominance of mercantile city-states seem like a transitory stage in history.

Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4598 Posts

Posted - 29 Feb 2012 :  04:35:59  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's an interesting point. It's all in the name "Forgotten" Realms--the whole setting is built around the concept of ancient civilizations and nations that have long ago fallen. (Ed originally named the setting in relation to our own world--that FR consists of the Realms "forgotten" by our world.)

The Realms runs through many, many apocalypses. The Crown Wars, the Fall of Netheril, the Destruction of Myth Drannor, the Time of Troubles, the Spellplague--those are all apocalypses that have pretty much run their course. And there are other apocalypses that have been thwarted: the rogue dragons, freeing the Phaerimm, the Shadowstorm, etc.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars"
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3736 Posts

Posted - 29 Feb 2012 :  04:46:42  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-I would have liked to have seen one real, full blown Rage of the Dragons. The one that occurred in 1,374 DR, we got a trilogy, two short story collections, and a semi-related sourcebook, but it felt too watered down. A Rage having taken place in the past, it would've been kind of awesome to have gotten a real in-depth view of it, other than "In XYZ Year, a Dragon Rage took place". I mean total, wholesale destruction- tens of thousands of lives lost, entire civilizations destroyed, the planet itself hurt, scarred and changed...

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe

USA
196 Posts

Posted - 29 Feb 2012 :  05:24:55  Show Profile Send Eladrinstar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
We know the Giants and Dragons warred long ago, but that's not as interesting when there weren't human civilizations caught in the crossfire, or at least not ones that were detailed.
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3736 Posts

Posted - 29 Feb 2012 :  05:26:02  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-Seemingly, there have been Humans for who knows how far back in history. They just haven't always been particularly civilized, advanced, or dominant, pick your descriptor.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 29 Feb 2012 :  05:27:41  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Eladrinstar

We know the Giants and Dragons warred long ago, but that's not as interesting when there weren't human civilizations caught in the crossfire, or at least not ones that were detailed.

I can't say I'd agree with that. Great Realms cataclysms don't have to involve the human element to keep me interested.

I'd love to learn more about the clashes between giants and dragons. Or the phaerimm and the sharn. Or the aboleth and practically everything else.

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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe

USA
196 Posts

Posted - 29 Feb 2012 :  05:47:05  Show Profile Send Eladrinstar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I meant interesting in an apocalyptic sense. I would still read a sourcebook about Dragon/Giant Wars cover-to-cover.
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Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe

181 Posts

Posted - 29 Feb 2012 :  06:11:33  Show Profile  Visit Aes Tryl's Homepage Send Aes Tryl a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Erik

Would the Fall of Myth Drannor and ToT really qualify as apocalyptic? ToT re-shuffled the pantheons abit and damaged some places but not to the extent the Crown Wars (entire elven civilisations crumbling into obscurity, including the loss of the dark elves who become dhaerow), the Fall of Netheril (Loss of Mystryl, Elimination of the Netherese empire wholesale from the face of Faerun, not withstanding the few canny archmages and the Shadovar, a basic reset for a huge part of Faerun as it ends Netherese dominance over a large portion of the continent and also creates the huge Aunaroch Desert.)

The fall of Myth Drannor was isolated to ONE elven empire, albeit the most open and arguably one of the most advanced and cultured realm at the time, but its fall was isolated in a sense that the victors and masterminds (The Trio Nefarious) were ended during the war and did not carve out some daemonic empire of destruction ala the Narfelli, and its survivors managed to retreat in good order to Evermeet. It's fall was merely a splash in the pond rather than somebody throwing a couple of ten ton boulders in it, which was kind of what the Crown Wars, The Fall of Netheril and the Spellplague did.
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4598 Posts

Posted - 29 Feb 2012 :  17:40:37  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm looking at apocalypses in the "spirit" of the Realms, not so much in the actual physical damage or change in the status quo.

I think the Fall of Myth Drannor was more important symbolically as an apocalypse: it metaphorically broke the back of the elven empire in Faerun. But I agree that it didn't have the flashy physical impact that the others did.

I consider the ToT and the Spellplague to be about equivalent in the spiritual change to the Realms, which is both me saying that the ToT was a bigger deal than we now consider it AND that the Spellplague is less of a deal than we imagine. But I have a whole 18 page (and counting) thread devoted to neutering the Spellplague to being a footnote in history, so we don't need to go into that here.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars"
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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 29 Feb 2012 :  21:05:29  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

quote:
Originally posted by Eladrinstar

We know the Giants and Dragons warred long ago, but that's not as interesting when there weren't human civilizations caught in the crossfire, or at least not ones that were detailed.

I can't say I'd agree with that. Great Realms cataclysms don't have to involve the human element to keep me interested.

I'd love to learn more about the clashes between giants and dragons. Or the phaerimm and the sharn. Or the aboleth and practically everything else.


Agreed... on all counts... WotC, are you listening?

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.
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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 29 Feb 2012 :  21:09:58  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

<snip>I consider the ToT and the Spellplague to be about equivalent in the spiritual change to the Realms, which is both me saying that the ToT was a bigger deal than we now consider it AND that the Spellplague is less of a deal than we imagine. But I have a whole 18 page (and counting) thread devoted to neutering the Spellplague to being a footnote in history, so we don't need to go into that here.

Cheers



And there are several threads, some as long as that, discussing how to re-engineer the Spellplague from the beginning... but the best suggestion for that, IMO, is the most recent, from our friend Wooly. I suppose that this proves that RSEs are like fermented beverages or coffee... the longer you let them sit and process, the stronger they become.

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2012 :  01:09:32  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

I'd love to learn more about the clashes between giants and dragons. Or the phaerimm and the sharn. Or the aboleth and practically everything else.


Agreed. Except the last part. I'd like the aboleths to war with other outsiders, like the gith.

Every beginning has an end.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2012 :  01:30:12  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

I'd love to learn more about the clashes between giants and dragons. Or the phaerimm and the sharn. Or the aboleth and practically everything else.


Agreed. Except the last part. I'd like the aboleths to war with other outsiders, like the gith.

While it's a core 3e source, Lords of Madness notes that the aboleths have a multiversal perspective on their relations with other races.

I can see such perspectives being further developed for the expansive needs of the Sovereignty in the Realms.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2012 :  02:04:20  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

I'd love to learn more about the clashes between giants and dragons. Or the phaerimm and the sharn. Or the aboleth and practically everything else.


Agreed. Except the last part. I'd like the aboleths to war with other outsiders, like the gith.

While it's a core 3e source, Lords of Madness notes that the aboleths have a multiversal perspective on their relations with other races.

I can see such perspectives being further developed for the expansive needs of the Sovereignty in the Realms.


I could be wrong. But I am under the impression that we're in the minority here. How many scribes (here) dislike or don't care for this race that after millenia of seclusion suddenly emerged and wreck havoc in the Realms?

So I wouldn't be surprised at all if they suddenly disappear in 5E.

Every beginning has an end.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2012 :  04:31:23  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I like the Sovereignty well enough. I just don't like them possibly being used as the "be all and end all" for all the nefarious plots inflicting the Realms.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3736 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2012 :  05:05:11  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-I am 50-50 on them. I like the concept, but at the same time, I don't like that Aboleth have become more Far Realmsy Aberration than Psionic Underdark Aberration, nor do I like the implications that their ascendancy was supposedly supposed to have on the planet. I would tone all of that down a bit for maximum likability.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium

Edited by - Lord Karsus on 03 Mar 2012 05:05:32
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2012 :  05:09:49  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't mind the idea of a flying city that's not Netherese... But everything else I've read about the Sovereignty fails to interest me, at best.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2012 :  18:41:48  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, I'm willing to allow that just about everything exists somewhere in the Realms, but the mutated catfish thing just doesn't work for me.

Never has - its one of the few D&D beasties I hated from the moment I saw it.

I don't get the 'post-apocalyptic' vibe from the 0e/1e/2e/3e Realms, but I certainly get it from the 4e Realms. Too bad they never allowed for play in 1386 DR (still beating this dead horse) - thats got "Mad Max meets Elminster" written all over it.

Whats cooler? Knowing that there are dragonborn (and tieflings) running around for at least a century, or having a town of them appear right next door to you? Ahhhhh... opportunities missed....

The entire 'new vs old' conflict was completely avoided, and the setting was re-booted in the 'age of peaceful tranquility'. I just don't get it - what in the nine hells were they thinking? They glossed-over what was possibly THE most interesting century of Realms history to play in.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 03 Mar 2012 18:43:18
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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2012 :  23:43:53  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Yeah, I'm willing to allow that just about everything exists somewhere in the Realms, but the mutated catfish thing just doesn't work for me.

Never has - its one of the few D&D beasties I hated from the moment I saw it.

I don't get the 'post-apocalyptic' vibe from the 0e/1e/2e/3e Realms, but I certainly get it from the 4e Realms. Too bad they never allowed for play in 1386 DR (still beating this dead horse) - thats got "Mad Max meets Elminster" written all over it.

Whats cooler? Knowing that there are dragonborn (and tieflings) running around for at least a century, or having a town of them appear right next door to you? Ahhhhh... opportunities missed....

The entire 'new vs old' conflict was completely avoided, and the setting was re-booted in the 'age of peaceful tranquility'. I just don't get it - what in the nine hells were they thinking? They glossed-over what was possibly THE most interesting century of Realms history to play in.


I have to completely agree here. I love the 'Mad Max meets Elminster' visual...

Here's hoping we get some product support for this era in 5e...

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2012 :  08:14:56  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-I am 50-50 on them. I like the concept, but at the same time, I don't like that Aboleth have become more Far Realmsy Aberration than Psionic Underdark Aberration, nor do I like the implications that their ascendancy was supposedly supposed to have on the planet. I would tone all of that down a bit for maximum likability.


I suppose their rise to power is there to somehow steal/share the villainy spotlight that's almost always been occupied by Shade recently.

Every beginning has an end.
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coach
Senior Scribe

USA
479 Posts

Posted - 01 Jun 2012 :  01:01:34  Show Profile Send coach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-I would have liked to have seen one real, full blown Rage of the Dragons. The one that occurred in 1,374 DR, we got a trilogy, two short story collections, and a semi-related sourcebook, but it felt too watered down. A Rage having taken place in the past, it would've been kind of awesome to have gotten a real in-depth view of it, other than "In XYZ Year, a Dragon Rage took place". I mean total, wholesale destruction- tens of thousands of lives lost, entire civilizations destroyed, the planet itself hurt, scarred and changed...



i second that

if they were gonna destroy everything, wish WotC wouldv'e done this instead of the disastrous spellplague story

Bloodstone Lands Sage
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coach
Senior Scribe

USA
479 Posts

Posted - 01 Jun 2012 :  01:05:37  Show Profile Send coach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
and i also second Markus in that, i never got a post-apocalyptic sense until 4e

FR canon
WotC FR product line
the 4e ruleset
Dragon mag
Dungeon mag

all of it got NUKED lol

Bloodstone Lands Sage
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 01 Jun 2012 :  01:40:53  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by coach

and i also second Markus in that, i never got a post-apocalyptic sense until 4e

FR canon
WotC FR product line
the 4e ruleset
Dragon mag
Dungeon mag

all of it got NUKED lol

How did the 4e rules-set pro0mote a sense of the post-apocalypse for you?

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

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coach
Senior Scribe

USA
479 Posts

Posted - 01 Jun 2012 :  06:21:40  Show Profile Send coach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

quote:
Originally posted by coach

and i also second Markus in that, i never got a post-apocalyptic sense until 4e

FR canon
WotC FR product line
the 4e ruleset
Dragon mag
Dungeon mag

all of it got NUKED lol

How did the 4e rules-set pro0mote a sense of the post-apocalypse for you?



that is the one item on that list that is FIXING to be post-apocalyptic. it failed so wotc is nuking it for 5e

Bloodstone Lands Sage
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