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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 18:33:23
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Hundreds of tombs in Rashemen contain the once formidable rulers of that land---the Nar wizards. During their bloody war against the hathrans, had the durthans, who were known for their necromancy that was as formidable as Thay’s conjurors’, ever raised some Nar conjurors to help them in their cause? Or did they think that’s too dangerous an endeavor?
By rough estimate, each Nar wizard is as powerful as the combined might of ten durthans. But if the durthans raised only a number that they could manage to ‘control,’ then I suppose the peril is not that great, and the rewards are too high in comparison.
If they were really that desperate to win the war, calling the Nar from their graves might not be that hard...
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Edited by - Dennis on 26 Feb 2012 19:56:25
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2012 : 13:22:11
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I think the main thing about reanimating the Nars is the exact method of said reanimation. Simply getting them up again is not going to do it they need them to be intelligent and self aware to be able to access their considerable arcane lore. With that said, a self aware Nar who returns back to the living will be very interested in the Realms of today and how he can fit into it, not to mention those who would seek such a being's knowledge of demon-binding and infernal magic.
Szass Tam surely would have sought such knowledge a long time ago, or at the very least the bodies would have been stolen and their spirits questioned vigorously for information. |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2012 : 18:49:45
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In Richard Lee Byers' The Masked Witches, a patchwork man (a grotesque, very cunning and powerful undead), an undead durthan, and a Raumatari wizard were able to reanimate a couple of Nar wizards, whose bodies were rotten but whose intelligence and powers remained sharp and strong. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2012 : 21:22:09
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I'm sorry Dennis, but that just sounded so much like the beginning of a great joke...
"A Patchwork man, an Undead Durthan, and a Raumathari Wizard walk into a bar..." 
Xar brings up an interesting point - I think besides the bodies being entombed, the spirits of those mages must have been bound somehow, so they couldn't be called forth without the precise ritual to unlock their prison (whatever/wherever that may have been). This would keep them from being used by other (still living at the time) Nar, and also any potential future enemies (like the Red Wizards mentioned). After the ritual is performed, the spirit is released (perhaps it was trapped inside the body itself?), and the creature is reanimated into a type of hellspawned Ancient Dead (Mummy).
I'd go for something like canopic jars, myself - perhaps they were spread around and all have to be brought together, and then the 'magic words' (in the Black Speech) spoken. You'd also have to make sure you had all the right jars - if you had the wrong one from a different Nar Conjuror, there should be some sort of spectacular failure.
Finding the 'unlocking ritual' would make a great scenario, or even an entire campaign-arc (lots of people - both good and bad - would want to take that from the PCs).
Or a novel...  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Apr 2012 21:29:13 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2012 : 21:57:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm sorry Dennis, but that just sounded so much like the beginning of a great joke...
"A Patchwork man, an Undead Durthan, and a Raumathari Wizard walk into a bar..."
Those three creatures are hardly 'friends,' but their ‘common goal’ (you have to read the novel to find out) is what binds them...for the moment.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Xar brings up an interesting point - I think besides the bodies being entombed, the spirits of those mages must have been bound somehow, so they couldn't be called forth without the precise ritual to unlock their prison (whatever/wherever that may have been).
The three beings I mentioned know the precise spell. That’s why the Nar wizards that rose from their tombs (literally) still possess their formidable intelligence and power. Their ‘souls’ were like placed in some sort of stasis upon their death; they even commented upon their reanimation that it’s as though they simply slept, their last memory being the time when they took fatal blows from their enemies. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2012 : 07:29:03
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| Their reanimation was done with something identified as Lod's pigment, Lod being the de facto leader of the Eminence of Araunt. I mean maybe he has access to necromanctic lore not even known to some necromancers. I mean he did create or rather inscribed the Codex of Araunt. |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2012 : 08:21:41
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I haven't read this novel, but from the brief descriptions in this scroll I suspect this patchwork man is only a flesh golem.
More specifically, a flesh golem similar to the horrific Ravenloft varieties described in Van Richten's Guide to the Created. The character seems very similar to a Patchwork Man character from DC comics, itself influenced by the classic (or modern) reanimated Frankenstein monster. RLB's skillfully grostesque descriptions of other lowly undead in his Haunted Lands trilogy, even common zombies and ghosts, suggests to me that this character is indeed a "common" and commonly-overlooked monster.
I know flesh golems aren't as epic or romantic as failed godlings, fiends, liches, vampires, and similar beasts. But they are relentless, tireless, unwavering, unstoppable, and damned hard to kill. I envision golems as the D&D version of Terminators, and I envision flesh golem varieties as being the most monstrous and dangerous kind of golem because of their limited (un-sane and malign) intelligence ... plus, well, their surgically-undead appearance and repulsive smell are handy details, and their creators are usually inspired madmen suffering from fatal egomania. Can't go wrong with the classics.
While evil half-insane scalpel-wielding necromancers were standard fare in parts of Ravenloft, they're not the sort of thing one encounters in 4E D&D. There used to be rules for animating horrible frankencreatures and for binding devils, but now such unwholesome and nightmarish concepts are largely averted and DMs daring to think outside the box will just have to invent their own rules and in-game rituals from scratch. I imagine this is exactly the approach used by RLB, since of course WotC's current policy does not publish D&D novels written for pre-4E periods. And again, the novels are interested primarily in the story, authors will create (or ignore) game rules when needed. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 06 Apr 2012 08:45:45 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2012 : 09:32:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Their reanimation was done with something identified as Lod's pigment, Lod being the de facto leader of the Eminence of Araunt. I mean maybe he has access to necromanctic lore not even known to some necromancers. I mean he did create or rather inscribed the Codex of Araunt.
Perhaps. Though it's not hard to imagine that after years of delving into the bittersweet art of necromancy, the durthans could have unveiled the secrets of reanimating the Nar wizards with their intelligence and magical skills intact. Either they discovered it themselves, and or they sent spies to Thay to retrieve necromantic lore from the Red Wizards.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I haven't read this novel, but from the brief descriptions in this scroll I suspect this patchwork man is only a flesh golem.
Not exactly. Think of Xingax's experiments. It's an undead, with a high level of intelligence, or rather, intelligences. Composed of several (twisted) minds woven together, it often bickers with itself, though it has a dominant mind that governs all its actions and powers. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 06 Apr 2012 09:39:25 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2012 : 09:44:40
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| What you describe is exactly what is written in the Van Richten's Guide I named; there are also short stories and some mini-adventures using the same ideas. A fine guide for creating semi-human flesh golems, even when the malevolent horror influences of Ravenloft are not in play. I recommend reading this product if the topic interests you, it's roughly equivalent to Arcane Ages: Netheril in terms of fluff vs crunch. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 06 Apr 2012 09:47:30 |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2012 : 10:08:44
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I agree with Ayrik, authors tend to ignore the game rules when it comes to the story. I mean can you imagine a write detailing 5 minutes of casting a Knock ritual, when before 4e a simple incantation and wave of the hand can unlock a door.
I also believe that it was a flesh golem, as it reference being bound to service, as well as having many personalities. |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2012 : 10:22:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
What you describe is exactly what is written in the Van Richten's Guide I named; there are also short stories and some mini-adventures using the same ideas. A fine guide for creating semi-human flesh golems, even when the malevolent horror influences of Ravenloft are not in play. I recommend reading this product if the topic interests you, it's roughly equivalent to Arcane Ages: Netheril in terms of fluff vs crunch.
I'll check it out.
I have a different idea of what a flesh golem is, that's why. It's either a 'living' man whose missing body parts were replaced by those of a variety of creatures, with a few grotesque additions; or dead parts of several people woven together and granted a semi or artificial intelligence. No part of the patchwork man is alive, and his mind is (definitely) not artificial. So...
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
I agree with Ayrik, authors tend to ignore the game rules when it comes to the story.
I don't see why ignoring the game rules matters in a novel. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 06 Apr 2012 10:26:40 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2012 : 11:46:06
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The game rules don't matter at all in a novel.
Unless that novel is about a setting which is part of the D&D franchise, where suddenly very game-specific elements are deliberately inserted onto every page. If you played the game, especially across the various edition boundaries, then you would be acutely aware of these references. As often as not, game modules are promptly released which detail the locations and characters of a particular novel ... these things used to be adventures and mini-campaigns, but these days there's just no such thing as a minor protagonist in WotC books, they're all great movers and shakers, so the parallel game content is now typically just pages of exhaustively overdetailed stat blocks.
I agree that this "hidden" game content is not at all required to write FR novels. But it is necessary to increase sales ... and to help sell the associated game products. There's too much market overlap to ignore, and Wizbro works diligently to reduce the gap as much as possible. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2012 : 13:46:32
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I prefer the simplicity of the whole non-movers and shakers. There are so many great fellows they can use to write stories, like Shoon, Ambuchar Devayam, the possibility that Lichdrow Dyrr might not be dead but back and kicking etc.
Instead they spend so much time and effor creating something like the Abyssal Plague or something...the one with Tharizdun in it. We didn't need another phenomenal cosmic being trying to destroy the multiverse again, thank you very much. Try Elder Evils, less workload. |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2012 : 18:53:47
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It's their attempt to introduce fans of one novel line to another... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2012 : 02:05:36
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I think most D&D settings have the 'common, garden-variety' flesh-golems, and Ravenloft had the far more interesting (and sinister) superior type - I usual fall back on the D&D nomenclature of 'lesser' and 'greater' (I believe all golems come in these 'tiers'). You could even use the CCG terminology of common, uncommon, and rare.
Regardless, It would appear Richard lee Byer decided to treat us to one of the better ones, not normally seen outside of Ravenloft.
Larloch's been around a LONG time, and there is also that lich (baelnorn) that gaurds the Calimemnon Crystal - necromancy isn't anything new, and the Thayans certainly aren't the 'epitome' of necromantic magics. There was even at least one Ncromantic kingdom down in Zakhara, in ages past (Sahu - see The Complete Guide to necromancers). The Nar (as well as the Raumathari toward the end) had interaction with fiends - I think the entire UE is steeped in that sort of thing - magics both beyond the grave and hellish. The Durthan didn't have to turn to the Red Wizards for lore.
On the other hand, a turncoat female Red Wizard, who fled to Rashemen with her magical tomes (maybe some stolen from a patron?), and was offered asylum by the Durthan, would make a great story. Imaguine a Red Wizard Durthan - nasty combo, that. 
LOL! We could call her 'The Scarlet Witch'.
Giving her a Bloodforged (warforged) servant/lover would be the icing on the cake.
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
It's their attempt to introduce fans of one novel line to another.
They figure it worked for comics.... repeatedly... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Apr 2012 04:20:25 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2012 : 02:20:23
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They could have pilfered the lore practically from anywhere; perhaps even from Halruaa, which, despite its magical practices tending towards the conservative/goodly, treated necromancy like a regular form of the Art. But then again, why scour the ends of the world when you can find what you're looking for just next door? Their proximity to Thay saved them a lot of trouble. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2012 : 06:11:48
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| Agreed, not to mention if they were working with traitor Red Wizards. Still magic that is drowning in hellish and necromantic lore always lures those who are after power. |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2012 : 16:45:41
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@Dennis - Because Thay is NOT the only place such knowledge can come from, right in their own backyard.
It doesn't have to come from Thay - several Rashemi/Raumvari groups have gone down the path of 'dark magics' - the entire east is full of the stuff. You have at least three independent liches living nearby (comparitively), and in the Code of the Harpers there is a 'ruined city' in the eastern Wastes that is overrun with undead and at least one vampire-lord (the locale I dubbed Fanlaag on my Hordelands map).
So Thay is close-by, but there are other sources for this stuff just as close, and probably easier to get their hands on.
UNLESS, as I pointed out, an ex-patriot Red Wizard allied with the Durthans (a situation with seems highly probably after what went down in Thay).
Think of 'Old Thay' as the Soviet Union (a good comparison, actually) - after the wall fell (Szass Tam did the dread-ring dance), people who had 'control' of destructive/usefull 'tech' (think magical lore) ran for the free-market and were auctioning-off Soviet secrets to the highest bidder. Now we have Thay, with lots of Red Wizards outside of their 'fallen nation' (expatriates) - literally 'people without a country' - all with tons of classified Thayan secrets and no where to go.
My point is, the Durthan didn't have to go anywhere - the knowledge they needed probably fell right into their laps... even if it was just stuff they confiscated from a fleeing Red Wizard they caught within their borders.
Or, they could have just been given the information by extra-planer creatures, whom they're already known to traffic with (nature spirits, and the like). Or maybe even an Elder Treant was around at the time the Nar were entombed - so many possibilities exist, its a shame to just blame everything undead on Thay - I think it cheapens the setting. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Apr 2012 15:35:33 |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2012 : 06:46:18
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| Well, your analogy is spot on since most Red Wizards in the realms today are considered merchants who wear red than wizards from Thay. |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2012 : 06:08:04
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That maybe true. But we can't really generalize on the attitude of the wizards-turned-merchants of (or rather, outside) Thay. Many of them still hold a glimmer of hope that one day they could reclaim their 'beloved' homeland, specially, as I speculated, that some of the thought-to-be-dead zulkirs could have survived their disastrous fight with Szass Tam. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2012 : 14:42:39
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| Perhaps Lauzoril/Lallara maybe even Nevron are working to undermine Thay now, unknown to each other believing themselves the only survivors. Heck, maybe RLB will work it into Brotherhood of the Griffon with the zulkirs aiding the Eminence. Perhaps they are also undead of a sort?... |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2012 : 19:24:20
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| One thing that might be interesting with the return of specifically these Nar wizards.... had any of them become powerful demons in the afterlife? Were there any demon lords who possessed their souls, and now they've had them stolen and are now mad? Let us not forget that the Nar's royalty had the blood of demons in them. They weren't a typical human society. In raising these Nars, could the Eminence of Araunt just opened themselves to assaults from the abyss? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2012 : 05:23:54
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| It is entirely possible, though the question you also have to ask is what do the Nars themselves think? They are free willed undead who are now beyond the neccesities of the living and can pursue their magical desired and wants. They could possible renew deals with former demonic allies and call them to Faerun again, to serve their purposes instead of the Eminence. Demon lords now in the Abyss could be working to bring their armies to serve the Nars for this very purpose... |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2012 : 05:35:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Perhaps Lauzoril/Lallara maybe even Nevron are working to undermine Thay now, unknown to each other believing themselves the only survivors. Heck, maybe RLB will work it into Brotherhood of the Griffon with the zulkirs aiding the Eminence. Perhaps they are also undead of a sort?...
Oh, I'd love to see them again, but preferably not undead. Not even as liches. One Szass Tam is more than enough. Although, come to think of it, a realm ruled by a Conclave of Liches sounds...good. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2012 : 05:39:55
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
One thing that might be interesting with the return of specifically these Nar wizards.... had any of them become powerful demons in the afterlife?
As I noted above, when they were revived by the 'three,' they felt as though they simply woke up from a long, dreamless sleep---the manner of their deaths as their last memory. If they had become demons in the afterlife, they wouldn't have commented such a thing. Unless the ritual of the three undead who raised them involved wiping out their memory in the afterlife. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2012 : 05:48:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
It is entirely possible, though the question you also have to ask is what do the Nars themselves think? They are free willed undead who are now beyond the neccesities of the living and can pursue their magical desired and wants. They could possible renew deals with former demonic allies and call them to Faerun again, to serve their purposes instead of the Eminence. Demon lords now in the Abyss could be working to bring their armies to serve the Nars for this very purpose...
One of the things I'd like to see in the next two books of the trilogy is how the shaky alliance of the Eminence, the Nars, the durthans, and possibly Thay, crumbles---each ultimately seeking out their own selfish agenda. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2012 : 07:20:09
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| Trying to destroy or at least severly hamper the efforts of one or the other all the while... Total and complete magical chaos then... |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2012 : 06:55:12
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I would also love it if Richard could shed some light on the Witch War; do some flashback so the readers can better understand the hate of the durthans towards their 'goodly' sisters. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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coach
Senior Scribe
USA
479 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2012 : 01:15:55
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| i think some durthan stuff in Unapproachable East |
Bloodstone Lands Sage |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2012 : 02:43:40
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Very little, actually. A novel or two could expound it. I still find it impossible that all them died in the war, even if the hathrans are probably more powerful. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2012 : 06:07:04
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| You would think that with the spells and spirits at their command some durthans would have "exited stage right" before they could be "iced" |
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The Witch War and Undead Nar Conjurors
