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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Feb 2012 : 22:55:25
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I have been reading about Sarifal again lately, and I came across something that I meant to ask much earlier.
I was reading the article (again) about Sarifal in Dragon 376 and came across an Elven template. It was that of an Elf (Eladrin, in 4e's case) that was bringing Corellon's teachings to the 'heathens' of Sarifal. So, what I gathered was that the worshipers of the Archfey aren't really worshiping any gods. That also made me think about where those who worshiped Arcfey, where their souls went.
Any help?
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2012 : 22:56:51
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| I'd imagine the feywild |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2012 : 23:05:51
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| Would their souls be reborn in the Feywild? What would they become? Would they be reborn as some sort of Faerie type or would their souls be lingering around in the Archfey's realm? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2012 : 23:22:39
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Well, since fey can travel between the Feywild (Faerie) and the Prime anyway, what exactly is the difference between them being dead or alive?
Or are fey just 'spirits', and they are all dead to begin with?
'Death' being both a 'transitive state', and temporary in D&D, it sort of really blurs the lines between which is which.
As for the OP - I think worshiping archfey (Yuir Totems?) would be very much along the same lines as beast or fiend cults. This has been discussed before on these boards - I think it was theorized that in the case of cults, the power (divine magic) isn't derived from the being itself, but rather it's plane of origin.
Thats more of a 'core' explanation. In FR, we have The Weave, which complicates things. Its easy enough to explain how Mystra maintains an 'ease-of-use' interface for deities to use (if they desire to do so), but a plane can't make that decision. To say that Mystra is able to draw-off power from those planes without anyone's permission would make her even more powerful then we already know she is/was, so thats not really a good solution.
So I guess we go with the 'core theory' and say the plane (of origin) provides the power, and it has nothing to do with Mystra and her Weave (which would mean such magic would work in a dead magic zone, and also work just fine post-spellplague). In this case, that means the power is channeled directly from the Feywild. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Feb 2012 23:25:16 |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2012 : 11:45:47
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| But what happens to the worshipers once they die? Do their souls go to the Feywild abd dwell with the Archfey? Or do their souls wander the Feywild or are they turned into a Fey like how some Demon and Devil worshipers are turned into some type of demon or devil? |
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Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2012 : 16:08:44
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| Most likely they reincarnate back in the World |
z455t |
Edited by - Kno on 24 Feb 2012 16:09:00 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2012 : 20:07:38
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What Kno said (I believe thats the OD&D/1e explanation), or they just go to the Feywild as 'fey spirits' (Kami?)
I have my own way of working all this out, but this thread I assume is for more canon answers.
I will say you are on the 'right track'* with your own theories, Erendriel - that they go to the Feywild, and some become other types of fey once there (the less-corporeal ones).
*In terms of being along the lines of my own thoughts on the matter.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Feb 2012 20:10:37 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2012 : 02:44:45
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Archfey are not deities. They do not have astral domains. They do not require worship. They derive their power from the Feywild or whatever their particular fey power source is. It should be stressed that they do not derive power from worship. Worship is a power source unique to gods. Archfey would still be powerful no matter if anyone believed in them or not.
When souls die, they go to the Fugue Plane. There, they wait for their patron god, or a representative of that god, to come get them. Souls cannot leave the Fugue voluntarily; they must be picked up. Archfey cannot travel to the Fugue; only gods or a god's designated agent(s) can enter or leave the Fugue with petitioners (excepting devils and demons). There is no way that an archfey can directly retrieve his worshipers. There may be a workaround, but I'll get to that further down.
If the petitioner has worshiped an actual god other than the archfey, then that god might be able to claim the soul as a petitioner, and may be able to collect the soul for his own. But if no god can claim the soul then the soul may be waiting around for a long time.
While the petitioner is waiting to be picked up, he may entertain other offers. He will likely be approached by a devil. Kelemvor allows devils the right to solicit souls directly from the Fugue in exchange for defending the Fugue from demon raids. Any soul can willingly leave with a devil. The devil may not lie in making his pitch. It is not clear exactly what the devil is allowed to say. They can use all their powers of persuasion but they cannot lie or force the soul to go with them.
It is also possible that while the soul is waiting around he might be carried off in a demon raid, which happens from time to time. Demons use powerful magic to punch through reality in order to enter the Fugue to spirit off souls to turn into larvae and base soul-stuff in order to make new demons. It's part of their life-cycle (or after-life cycle to be more accurate).
It is also possible that a waiting soul can choose a patron god. At which time he may be collected by that god or her representative.
Souls that are not picked up will eventually feel the call, an overwhelming urge to go to Kelemvor's crystal spire at the center of the Fugue to be judged. They could very well be judged faithless and might therefore be piled on the Wall. Before ruling, Kelemvor might explain the situation to the petitioner and ask if he wants to choose a patron. If he does, then Kelemvor will send the petitioner packing off to the new god he chooses. Kelemvor may also invite the soul to choose Kelemvor himself. If the soul agrees, then he will join Kelemvor's staff and take up duties around the city of the dead in service of the Fugue.
Now, it's possible that the archfey might have a pact with a god (such as Corellon or Lolth). He may work out a deal with that god to collect his worshipers from the Fugue. The worshipers would then go to Arvandor or the Demonweb Pits or the domain of whatever god has agreed to accept the dead souls that worship that archfey. My bet is that most followers of archfey end up in Arvandor with the elven gods.
Of course, there is no law that says the souls have to stay in the realm of the proxy deity. I suppose the god could have a deal with the archfey to return the petitioners to the archfey in the feywild, perhaps even transformed into something (like a tree or a celestial servitor being), however, that seems like a lot to ask of a god to do for free. Gods are powered by souls and so it seems doubtful they would give away petitioners they had collected without a hefty payment of equal or greater value.
Another option is the soul-pact, which demons and devils make all the time in exchange for some kind of boon or service. This gives the devil or demon dibs on the soul upon death--over and above the claims of any other god. It's probable that archfey have the power to make such pacts. How the mechanics of that pact work has not been made clear. It might give the archfey the limited right to appear at the spire to claim souls so bound. Or, if they aren't allowed to enter the Fugue, Kelemvor's servants may be charged with escorting such pact-bound souls outside the Fugue to be delivered into the custody of the archfey or a waiting representative.
That's about all I can think of. There could be possibilities that I've overlooked. My best bet is that most fey souls (if they have souls) end up going to Arvandor with the Seldarine.
You know, now that I think about it, the above probably only applies to worshipers of Archfey who actually have souls. I bet most fey don't actually have souls as such. My guess is that the soul-energy of deceased fey in the Feywild just gets absorbed backed into the plane. Nymphs, satyrs, dryads and such seem to be more like spirits to me. I surmise that they may not have that soul-body distinction. I think their body may well be their soul and when it ends it's just gone, same as elementals and a lot of outsider types.
Humans and beings who definitely do have souls (separate from their bodies) that live in the feywild will still go to the Fugue even if they are in the Feywild at the time that they die.
Fey who are on the material plane probably also get absorbed into "nature" if they don't have that soul-body distinction. Fey that do have souls should still go to the Fugue.
No matter if a fey worships a god or an archfey, if that fey is more of a nature spirit that lacks the soul-body distinction, I would guess the soul just dissipates upon death. It would not have a soul that persists beyond death and could not go on to the Fugue or anywhere for that matter. It wouldn't even be reincarnated. It would just be gone.
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2012 : 02:47:44
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on the other hand... if said archfey worships a deity.... than the worshiper could be picked up by the diety that archfey worships.....
who knows |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2012 : 03:28:28
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My assumption is that Fiend-lords/Archfey/Beast Totems/Chosen/Saints/etc = 'Exarch' (probably one of the best things - a 'catch-all' category - to come out of 4e).
So, as you theorized above Gray, all of those beings can make pacts, and therefor have some sort of 'cosmic claim' on that soul.
I like the idea that Kelemvor has his own proxies that screen the fugue, gather up such souls, and deliver them to their 'final rest'. On the other hand, you say that demons can 'punch thorugh', and that devils get special permission, so perhaps these beings can, under certain circumstances, enter the fugue and do their own collections.
I do believe all fey are more along the lines of spirits - if you kill a spiritual being, it gets absorbed back into the 'plane stuff', which is then used to generate new fey (so its a type of reincarnation, but more like a recycling of 'soul stuff').
I guess we have to ask ourselves, are fey 'born', or are they automatically generated under certain conditions (Feywild energy 'leaking' into the prime)? If they are spontaneously generated, then they were never really alive in the normal sense to begin with (and the whole 'spirit' angle harkens back to OD&D).
This is not the same as the Fey race - the LeShay, or just 'Sidhe' - those were part of the Creatori (The Creator Races), and are immortal, and most of them are probably Archfey themselves by now. My new theory is that all of the Creatori were immortal, since they pre-dated death itself, and all would be Exarchs by modern standards (most no longer exist, however, so its not like millions of these are still running around).
So Immortal = Exarch (my way of marrying OD&D to 4e... and beyond). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Feb 2012 03:58:47 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2012 : 06:28:49
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It's well established that clerics and other divine casters can make a pact with non-god powers to get spells and divine abilities. There are specific, named feats for celestial paragons (including the Hebdomad, Companions of Talisid, and Court of Stars) and archfiends (arch-devils, demon-lords & princes, and yugoloth lords). It's pretty much assumed that you can make a similar pact with the upper echelons of slaadi, inevitables, demodands, nighthags, primordials, elemental lords and princes, beast-lords, primal spirits, probably even powerful genies, and other entities of equivalent rank. We are talking epic-level entities that have some kind of cosmic power-source that they can tap and channel into their bonded pact-makers. Eric Boyd called this the "take a feat, worship a potted plant" feat. Although, it is understood that the cleric who worships a potted plant isn't really getting his spells from the plant, but really from some other source, just channeled through the plant (or seemingly so).
So I would definitely lump the archfey in there, and also the shadow-lords or whatever the arch-shadowfell entities are called. |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2012 : 11:40:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Although, it is understood that the cleric who worships a potted plant isn't really getting his spells from the plant, but really from some other source, just channeled through the plant (or seemingly so).
I believe it is hypothesised somewhere that if a divine caster is "gaining spells" from a demon lord, then it is the Abyss itself responding to their plea, channeling the necessary energy through the "viewpoint" of the demon lord that the individual is in thrall to. Since the demon lords are spawned by and have a connection to the Abyss on a very fundamental level (likely representing some aspect of its "outlook" like how Demogorgon has a split personality - at the end of the Savage Tide adventure path, if a PC became the new "lord of the layer" then they had to make a Will save every month to avoid developing the same twin personalities that Demogorgon himself possessed, pressed upon them by the nature of the layer that they are now sourced to, so the split-mind may not have originally been entirely from Demogorgon, but reflects the desire of the Abyss just as Demogorgon's mind impressed a reflection of himself onto the 88th layer of the Abyss...), they are in this sense little more than an outlet for the practically overgod-level deity that is the Abyss itself.
In the case of the Hells, I think it's actually Asmodeus who was supplying the divine energy, though I couldn't speak to the other planes beyond the obvious (e.g. the Celestial Hebdomad channel energy from Celestia to the mortals who request power). I would surmise, however, something quite similar: that they are "bonded" to their home planes in some unknown respect and represent an aspect/outlet of its power, that can in turn supply another being with energies that are normally classified as "divine" magic.
What would be interesting is just how much say that the individual being of power has in this bargain. Do they have no choice but to accept the oath and channel the power? Can they refuse? Do they maintain identity separate from the whole that can make its own decisions, or is their identity wholly and completely shaped by the source of their power to the point where there would be little to no conflict? Are they aware on some level that they are a channel/link to the greater rather than a source in itself? If a mortal becomes bonded to the planes, how long would it take for his/her personality to be altered to align with the source-energy? |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 07:12:35
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You are very right about that. It's assumed that if the being/entity/power that the mortal makes a pact with doesn't actually have any power of its own to grant spells, then it must be channeling the power from another source where the power resides. Whereas demons and devils do not have divine power of their own, those that are bonded with a plane or layer can channel divine power from the plane itself. The 9 Hells and the Abyss, all Astral planes in fact, are made up of "souler" energy that has been absorbed/siphoned from petitioners and divine beings over the eons.
Primordials, though, do not have access to the Astral plane. If they grant spells, it is some kind of pseudo-divine power. It's powered by the elemental power source of the Elemental Chaos (or Elemental Planes.) I assume this is the same power that genies use to grant wishes. While it is not divine power, it can presumably mimic most if not all the effects of divine power.
There's also the power that Ur-priests channel. They siphon off power from the flow of divine energy between gods and their legitimate priests. Not sure how this works: it could be like intercepting stray information packets streaming through the internet. It could be like the magical equivalent of cloning the sim card of a cell phone. Or maybe it works like using an induction coil to steal power from a power line without actually being connected to the network.
Maybe non-divine powers have multiple methods they can use to grant spells, and they may supplement their abilities by stealing power from true gods (just like the Ur-priests do) in order to grant certain spells and effects to their clients that their own power source is not able to duplicate.
Very old entities may have all kinds of secret ways to duplicate and channel divine power that they themselves would not ordinarily have access to. These secrets would be guarded jealously. I can imagine powerful artifacts. Secret, back-door portals into a god's realm. A forgotten god's heart in a box. A divine entity kept prisoner in the basement, or in a coma. Siphoning residual power from a god-body in the Astral. Vials and casks and vats or even lakes of stored residuum. Souls in jars. Soul-slaves that can be tapped like a maple tree to extract incarnum. One or more true words of power from the language primal. That kind of thing. Surely an arch-demon, arch-fey or elemental prince that has been around several thousand years has to have a few tricks up his sleeve. The more ancient, the more powerful -- even if his "level" or "stats" are seemingly low. |
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