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Originally posted by Markustay

Wasn't there another star - one that may have been connected to the Spellplague? An OLD reference from the OGB... something about a 'Black Star' and Storm, or some-such? Or was it Dove? I forget.

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Marchayn of Archendale, the feared "Mad Witch" of the Thunder Peaks, has been found in her citadel, mindless and drooling, amidst chaos. All about her tower lay the dead bodies of the orcs (and worse) that served her, and much of her tower is now a fireblackened shell. The herdsman who found her reported to merchants of Arabel that Marchayn (who soon died and whose body was burned by the herdsman) repeated endlessly, "Dove! Dove! Smashed the black star . . . Dove!"

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Originally posted by Jakk

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Originally posted by Markustay

Wasn't there another star - one that may have been connected to the Spellplague? An OLD reference from the OGB... something about a 'Black Star' and Storm, or some-such? Or was it Dove? I forget.

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1356 Ches, OGB Cyclopedia, pp 36-37:

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Marchayn of Archendale, the feared "Mad Witch" of the Thunder Peaks, has been found in her citadel, mindless and drooling, amidst chaos. All about her tower lay the dead bodies of the orcs (and worse) that served her, and much of her tower is now a fireblackened shell. The herdsman who found her reported to merchants of Arabel that Marchayn (who soon died and whose body was burned by the herdsman) repeated endlessly, "Dove! Dove! Smashed the black star . . . Dove!"

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And yes; Ed (here, via THO) confirmed that as an early reference to the Spellplague, but the exact meaning of the phrase was never explained. Dove just kind of disappeared along with Alustriel and Laeral, and the closest thing we have to a "black star" is Cyric's nickname of "The Black Sun"... which may be on to something... but "black" doesn't really connect with "green" and "glowing"... although Bane's new symbol, as well as the vision connected with his return, do connect rather well with those descriptors.

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Originally posted by The Sage
The old "Beast of Bane" tidbit from the 3e Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land adventure-tome, as well, may be a reflection of the fact that Xvim still has some fight left in him, and that he was [somehow] solely responsible for its creation.

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Originally posted by Dennis


Or Bane and Xvim simply merged as one---two personalities in one form/body. And they must have worked on an agreement to their mutual benefit as to what personality to show on certain given occasions.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Dennis


Or Bane and Xvim simply merged as one---two personalities in one form/body. And they must have worked on an agreement to their mutual benefit as to what personality to show on certain given occasions.

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I don't see the ultimate tyrant agreeing to timeshare his body.

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Originally posted by Dennis

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Dennis


Or Bane and Xvim simply merged as one---two personalities in one form/body. And they must have worked on an agreement to their mutual benefit as to what personality to show on certain given occasions.

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I don't see the ultimate tyrant agreeing to timeshare his body.

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Not unless he was left with no better options.

He was once forced to agree on a bad bargain with Szass Tam. Under normal circumstances, he would have fought the lich both to teach him a lesson and rid the world of another ambitious being who wanted to rule the gods. But I suppose two things made him agree to their bargain. One, Thay has a substantial number of his followers. And two, which was the most important, he was engaged in some divine endeavor where time was very important; and thus he couldn't waste time dealing with the "cage" that Szass Tam put him in.

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Originally posted by The Sage

Sorry, I didn't realise, but I was alluding to a tweak in my own Realms with that last bit. Dornal wasn't the father of Qilue in my Realms, unlike what we've learned from the canon Realmslore.

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Originally posted by Jakk

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Originally posted by Dennis

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Dennis


Or Bane and Xvim simply merged as one---two personalities in one form/body. And they must have worked on an agreement to their mutual benefit as to what personality to show on certain given occasions.

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I don't see the ultimate tyrant agreeing to timeshare his body.

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Not unless he was left with no better options.

He was once forced to agree on a bad bargain with Szass Tam. Under normal circumstances, he would have fought the lich both to teach him a lesson and rid the world of another ambitious being who wanted to rule the gods. But I suppose two things made him agree to their bargain. One, Thay has a substantial number of his followers. And two, which was the most important, he was engaged in some divine endeavor where time was very important; and thus he couldn't waste time dealing with the "cage" that Szass Tam put him in.

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This makes sense to me... if it was a choice between "staying dead" and the arrangement you describe, I'm pretty sure Bane would choose the latter; he can't do much of anything if he's dead, and the time-share arrangement at least allows him some ability to move toward his goals... whatever those may be.

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Originally posted by Dennis


Or Bane and Xvim simply merged as one---two personalities in one form/body. And they must have worked on an agreement to their mutual benefit as to what personality to show on certain given occasions.

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Originally posted by Dennis

He was once forced to agree on a bad bargain with Szass Tam. Under normal circumstances, he would have fought the lich both to teach him a lesson and rid the world of another ambitious being who wanted to rule the gods. But I suppose two things made him agree to their bargain. One, Thay has a substantial number of his followers. And two, which was the most important, he was engaged in some divine endeavor where time was very important; and thus he couldn't waste time dealing with the "cage" that Szass Tam put him in.

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Originally posted by Jakk

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Originally posted by The Sage

Sorry, I didn't realise, but I was alluding to a tweak in my own Realms with that last bit. Dornal wasn't the father of Qilue in my Realms, unlike what we've learned from the canon Realmslore.

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I've performed a similar but opposite tweak in my Realms; Dornal was the father, and Qilue wasn't born a drow. Her surrogate mother was instead a member of the Eldreth Veluuthra and an extremely gifted wizard, which is how the agreement was worked out (see text following); none of this has come into play yet, and as a result it's still being modified, but Mystra (because of her nature and role as defined by Ed and in published canon) has completely separate aspects for the major races; this is another way in which she divides her power. The "elven Mystra" is the deity worshipped by the surrogate mother of Qilue, so even though said wizard hates humans, she's (probably unknowingly) worshipping a primarily-human deity. This was inspired in part by certain RW events that have been ongoing for the past decade or two.

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Originally posted by The Sage

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Originally posted by Jakk

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Originally posted by The Sage

Sorry, I didn't realise, but I was alluding to a tweak in my own Realms with that last bit. Dornal wasn't the father of Qilue in my Realms, unlike what we've learned from the canon Realmslore.

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I've performed a similar but opposite tweak in my Realms; Dornal was the father, and Qilue wasn't born a drow. Her surrogate mother was instead a member of the Eldreth Veluuthra and an extremely gifted wizard, which is how the agreement was worked out (see text following); none of this has come into play yet, and as a result it's still being modified, but Mystra (because of her nature and role as defined by Ed and in published canon) has completely separate aspects for the major races; this is another way in which she divides her power. The "elven Mystra" is the deity worshipped by the surrogate mother of Qilue, so even though said wizard hates humans, she's (probably unknowingly) worshipping a primarily-human deity. This was inspired in part by certain RW events that have been ongoing for the past decade or two.

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Can you share anything else about this idea? I like the EV-angle.

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Originally posted by The Sage

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Originally posted by Dennis


Or Bane and Xvim simply merged as one---two personalities in one form/body. And they must have worked on an agreement to their mutual benefit as to what personality to show on certain given occasions.

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That's counter-productive to the whole conception of the "Tyrant," which Bane classically embodies.

I can't see how the merger would work. One or the other would always be struggling for dominance.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by The Sage

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Originally posted by Dennis


Or Bane and Xvim simply merged as one---two personalities in one form/body. And they must have worked on an agreement to their mutual benefit as to what personality to show on certain given occasions.

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That's counter-productive to the whole conception of the "Tyrant," which Bane classically embodies.

I can't see how the merger would work. One or the other would always be struggling for dominance.

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That's how I see it. And even if this did come to pass, I think that once Bane was in the driver's seat, he'd do anything possible to stay there.

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Originally posted by Jakk - 05 Sep 2009 (this is from the scroll linked to in the previous line)

...Cyric murdered Mystra in Dweomerheart (this is from GHotR), otherwise her death would not have been complete and final. Deities (esp. greater deities) must be killed on their home plane in order to die; otherwise, it is only their avatar that dies. (IIRC; I'm going from memory here.)

Edit: Of course, things may be different in your Realms; particularly since the current (as of 1385 DR) Mystra was an ascended mortal; perhaps she retained Toril as her home plane...

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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

Earlier posts in this thread inspire me to wonder about the Time of Troubles . . . what if the whole "Tablets of Fate" thing was just a head fake, and Ao really triggered the event to check some particularly powerful deities, such as Mystra? He saw her becoming too mighty, so he engineered a series of events to trigger her self-reload mechanism to create a weaker Mystra (out of Midnight).

Of all the deities who could rise to challenge Ao, I think Mystra is the big threat.

Her and Shar, that is.

Maybe Ao engineered the Spellplague too, in order to do the same exact thing, and also collapse the Shadow Weave, which was empowering another would-be rival. But he didn't bother to consider the devastating consequences for the mortals of the Realms (upon whom his power is not directly dependent), and his self-imposed exile after the Spellplague arises from a sense of regret for how badly he messed everything up?

Hmm . . .

Cheers

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

Earlier posts in this thread inspire me to wonder about the Time of Troubles . . . what if the whole "Tablets of Fate" thing was just a head fake, and Ao really triggered the event to check some particularly powerful deities, such as Mystra? He saw her becoming too mighty, so he engineered a series of events to trigger her self-reload mechanism to create a weaker Mystra (out of Midnight).

Of all the deities who could rise to challenge Ao, I think Mystra is the big threat.

Her and Shar, that is.

Maybe Ao engineered the Spellplague too, in order to do the same exact thing, and also collapse the Shadow Weave, which was empowering another would-be rival. But he didn't bother to consider the devastating consequences for the mortals of the Realms (upon whom his power is not directly dependent), and his self-imposed exile after the Spellplague arises from a sense of regret for how badly he messed everything up?

Hmm . . .

Cheers

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Meh, I don't see him slapping down all of the gods when he could have just slapped down one or two. And even if it was an oversight, I don't see him engineering such destruction without trying to fix it.

If anything, I prefer the older suggestion made by someone that it wasn't Mystra's death that caused the Spellplague, it was the murder of Ao that did it. There are issues with that explanation, too, but I find that a more plausible explanation for the erratic nature of the Spellplague than the official one, and it would explain how Shar was able to keep a new Mystra from popping up.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

If anything, I prefer the older suggestion made by someone that it wasn't Mystra's death that caused the Spellplague, it was the murder of Ao that did it. There are issues with that explanation, too, but I find that a more plausible explanation for the erratic nature of the Spellplague than the official one, and it would explain how Shar was able to keep a new Mystra from popping up.

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Originally posted by Jakk

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

If anything, I prefer the older suggestion made by someone that it wasn't Mystra's death that caused the Spellplague, it was the murder of Ao that did it. There are issues with that explanation, too, but I find that a more plausible explanation for the erratic nature of the Spellplague than the official one, and it would explain how Shar was able to keep a new Mystra from popping up.

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Except... we have from the new Elminster novels a near-100% assurance that Shar had nothing to do with "preventing" a new Mystra from ascending, because it wasn't necessary (see my spoiler-tagged comments above)... Shar may have been advertising that fact through her priesthood to artificially magnify her power, but I think that's as far as it went, with the possible exception that Mystra would have to keep a very low profile to prevent Shar from learning of her survival until she had regained enough strength to survive another attack and, in doing so, Shar was in fact preventing Mystra from ascending to her former power. This is starting to look like a redacted document from a political scandal... let's see if I can find something to talk about without using spoiler tags.

Still, I'm intrigued by these alternative theories... here's hoping we learn the truth (or as close to it as we mortals can get) in Ed's next novel or three.

Edit: Oh, and re: the issues with the murder of Ao: First, I'm not sure that any entity in Realmspace other than Mystra would be capable of murdering Ao. Second, why would she? Third, I suppose it fits in one way; if the goddess of magic were to kill the overgod, it would certainly cause magic to go kablooie at least until the deed was done and the goddess could calm down again. Fourth, how does Shar fit in? And fifth, if Mystra's not dead or critically injured in this scenario, how is her following century of silence explained? I think the (attempted) murder of Mystra is by far the simpler explanation.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert


I've not read those novels; I'm going by info in the FRCG and the web info we had in the run-up to 4E. And in one of those places, it was explicitly stated that Shar prevented the ascension of a new deity of magic.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert


I've not really worked thru the entire thing for murdering Ao; as I said, it was someone else's idea. And the idea doesn't preclude Mystra's murder -- the idea is that it was Ao's murder that caused the Spellplague, not Mystra's. Mystra could have still been killed or imprisoned during that kablooie... As to who did it, I'd personally put my money on Cyric, getting some outside help. Perhaps the Far Realm, perhaps somewhere else...

In fact, what if the primordials were from somewhere far removed from the Realms cosmology, and Ao was one of their number, gone renegade or expatriate? After aeons pass, they find him again, and we get the big boom described. Abeir wasn't a twin world; it was somewhere else, but something about the battle betwixt Ao and his enemies made a connection that made the transposition possible. Ao sacrifices himself, banishes the primordials, and as things are settling back down, Cyric gets sneaky and offs Mystra.

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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

Earlier posts in this thread inspire me to wonder about the Time of Troubles . . . what if the whole "Tablets of Fate" thing was just a head fake, and Ao really triggered the event to check some particularly powerful deities, such as Mystra? He saw her becoming too mighty, so he engineered a series of events to trigger her self-reload mechanism to create a weaker Mystra (out of Midnight).

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Originally posted by The Sage

<snip>
Hmmm. I wonder how Chauntea would fit into this scenario?

As Ed has stated in the past, both Mystra and Chauntea form the essence of the Realms -- the Weave and the Land respectively. Would Ao have necessarily felt the need to check Chauntea's power as well?

We've also seen tidbits that suggest Ao may have been responsible for ensuring some of Mystra's divine power would be invested in her Chosen. Of course, this has never been actually proven. But what if it wasn't so much about maintaining some semblance of her essence for the rebooted Mystra to reclaim, and, instead, more about limiting her power somewhat. Conceivably, maybe Mystra was "told" by Ao that she could draw on the collective portions of her power invested in all of the Chosen in a time of crisis. But is this actually the truth of the matter? Perhaps Ao could establish a cap on just how much reserve power Mystra can draw upon from the Chosen.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

If anything, I prefer the older suggestion made by someone that it wasn't Mystra's death that caused the Spellplague, it was the murder of Ao that did it. There are issues with that explanation, too, but I find that a more plausible explanation for the erratic nature of the Spellplague than the official one, and it would explain how Shar was able to keep a new Mystra from popping up.

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Originally posted by Dennis

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

If anything, I prefer the older suggestion made by someone that it wasn't Mystra's death that caused the Spellplague, it was the murder of Ao that did it. There are issues with that explanation, too, but I find that a more plausible explanation for the erratic nature of the Spellplague than the official one, and it would explain how Shar was able to keep a new Mystra from popping up.

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Murder Ao? Who would do that? Cyric? Nah. He's the sickest mind in history, but he's never had the capacity to pull that off.

Ao might simply be bored, and let the world hang in the balance to amuse himself. The same reason he orchestrated the Time of Troubles.

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Originally posted by Dennis


If the Council of Overgods (as I'd like to call them) did, then there should have been no more Ao in 4E. They don't have to try to eliminate him, because they could if they set their minds to it.

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