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Marc
Senior Scribe

618 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2012 :  06:24:05  Show Profile Send Marc a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There aren't many drow pictures on our computer, a few of them that I like

albino

this

this

albino2

this

Anomander

drow

mount

albino

albino

.
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4597 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2012 :  08:25:54  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A couple things to read re female armor:

http://l-clausewitz.livejournal.com/384382.html

http://mygaming.co.za/news/news/29698-armour-expert-calls-female-boob-armour-a-design-flaw.html

And the argument about "distraction"/"cha bonus" armor is one I've heard before (and made myself on occasion), but that isn't really armor. It's Ann outfit.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars"
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe

USA
479 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2012 :  10:01:34  Show Profile Send Old Man Harpell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Shadowflame

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Actually, the more revealing armor works much better.

Would you hit a barely-dressed, incredibly hot babe with your sword? Probably not. Some helmeted knight, armored from head to foot, who is completely anonymous? Sure... why not?

Armor just has to stop damage - it doesn't matter how.

Distractions are just good defense - ask Sun Tsu.


Would I? Yes. She's an even better foe than the armoured knight, because glancing attacks are easier to land with less risk, and after a few of those, she'll probably bleed out.
So would I hit her with a sword? Definitely.


Note to self: Do not read LS's posts with a mouthful of hot coffee...

Okay...this is a running debate I have participated in on the Everquest forums, and I am hoping opinions here do not reach the fever pitch they have attained over there at times (which I could gently describe as 'uncharitable').

Briefly, though, on elves - I have always described the general populace of any elven nation/land/polity/world/etc. as being, as was stated earlier here, 'willowy'...the Tolkien model endures in this. It is when you get to less mundane examples of said elves that the more 'pronounced shapes' (to put it one way) become more evident, these 'less mundane' souls being player characters and prominent NPC figures, which is how, in my mind, such an over-representation of 'beef and cheese' in portraits of elves predominates.

You aren't generally shown pictures of the 'common elf', thus when an exceptional elf with a 'common look' distinguishes themselves, they are often not remembered in favor of those with more, ah, prominent features. These have been my observations, anyways. Most of my female players put curves on their characters by preference, anyways, regardless of species.

Now...on to armor. 'Normal' armor versus 'Red Sonja' armor:

Personal Preference: Excellent argument. If someone prefers the 'realistic' look, more power to them. I would never force someone with such preferences into a plate halter. In some worlds, such as Cerilia (of Birthright fame), 'Red Sonja' armor doesn't (in my opinion) even exist. The setting simply doesn't lend itself to such attire. That is my preference in this case (and since I am usually the DM, what I say goes). Maybe a slightly deeper neck on occasion, or a bare midriff here and there, but realistic armor rules the roost in such worlds.

Of course, this is also accompanied by what I view as an extreme dearth of wizardly (and divine) magic - such spellcasters are too busy helping determine the fate of kingdoms and producing epic weaponry and artifacts to...help determine the fate of kingdoms. A chainmail bikini doesn't exactly mesh with that world idea.

DM fiat: Obvious. The DM says 'no chain bikinis' - argument over. Next.

Realism: I've always dismissed this argument, at a base level, out of hand. Not fitting in a particular setting (like Birthright) is one thing, undeniably. But 'realism'? Right. Let's assume dragons did exist. Using real-world physics:
*Armored knights in full plate ride out to do battle with dragon.
*Dragon steps on armored knights, crushing them all like cockroaches in twenty seconds, tops, while wondering how his investments with Mirt are doing. Knights turned into pate', with bodily fluids leaking out of their pancaked armor.
*The End.

No swordfight, no magic weapons able to be used, nothing. None of that stuff matters, because the weight of physics (npi) says that the knights never stood a chance to begin with, even if they were level 10,000, and that they are now very, very dead. End of discussion. Realism trumps fantasy.

In a world where we have our 'representatives' tossing fireballs, facing down demon kings, slaughtering Oboulds's multitudes without breaking a sweat, taking a ride on a City of Shade, or going toe to toe with Thay's undead legions before noontime tea, the argument of 'it isn't realistic' doesn't compute. In a place like the Realms (even 4th Edition), wizards, enchanters, and magical artificers are much more commonplace, and thus have time to produce such interesting articles as Marizog's Splendiferous Battle Halter of Unyielding Steadfastness +5 (or whatever). Magical materials, bound entities, bizarre enchantments, and off-kilter metaphysics say that realism gets to take a hike.

Some things are true regardless of worlds: Rain on a nighttime roof, man's best friend, and of course, bacon (among many things). But all-pervading realism in my fantasy? Nah...not interested.

- OMH

Edited by - Old Man Harpell on 17 Feb 2012 10:06:22
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore

India
1591 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2012 :  11:21:16  Show Profile Send Thauranil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@ Old Man Harpell
You make a good point. After all fantasy is just that Fantasy, if you want realism then read Hemingway.
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Lady Shadowflame
Learned Scribe

115 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2012 :  11:27:20  Show Profile Send Lady Shadowflame a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

A couple things to read re female armor:

http://l-clausewitz.livejournal.com/384382.html

http://mygaming.co.za/news/news/29698-armour-expert-calls-female-boob-armour-a-design-flaw.html

And the argument about "distraction"/"cha bonus" armor is one I've heard before (and made myself on occasion), but that isn't really armor. It's Ann outfit.

Cheers



Get more than one female fighter and 'distraction armour' stops working, as I think my earlier post made clear.
Sure, Miss Buxom in the chainmail bikini might distract some guys, but the instant she runs across a hetero female or gay male opponent? She's in trouble.

Full text of one article you linked:
http://madartlab.com/2011/12/14/fantasy-armor-and-lady-bits/

Personally, I'd rather walk off the battlefield with my intestines still inside than bare my midriff on it. (Plus some of the fantasy art, those chest-decorations that don't actually join to anything? Bad idea. Really, really bad idea. Lolth's left mandible, the bouncing. No support. Youch.)

And more drow pics:
This one...
Scary lady - in full armour, no less.
And this.

Save a lizard... Ride a drow.
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sfdragon
Great Reader

2268 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2012 :  14:08:01  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
in argument with aribeth's armor... it was ceremonial armor... not actual combat armor. just for looks nothing else....or atleast that was what the general conception was....

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe

USA
479 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2012 :  15:01:03  Show Profile Send Old Man Harpell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Shadowflame
Get more than one female fighter and 'distraction armour' stops working, as I think my earlier post made clear.
Sure, Miss Buxom in the chainmail bikini might distract some guys, but the instant she runs across a hetero female or gay male opponent? She's in trouble.

Personally, I'd rather walk off the battlefield with my intestines still inside than bare my midriff on it. (Plus some of the fantasy art, those chest-decorations that don't actually join to anything? Bad idea. Really, really bad idea. Lolth's left mandible, the bouncing. No support. Youch.)


Oy! I get the impression that I'm in a distinct minority here.

The only thing I would say about the examples you give having strict application is if you employ only real-world physics and science. I contend that you (not you specifically, LS, but all 'realism' advocates) have lost sight of the possibilities that magic affords, to say nothing of social and cultural differences in other worlds. People in Toril, in Athas, in Golarion, in Krynn, and so forth, do not view the world through our culturally straightjacketed and high-tech lenses.

One thing that armorers and advocates of universal real-world application of standards in a roleplaying game (be it online or tabletop) often neglect or overlook is that these fantasy worlds often do not operate under the exact same natural and/or metaphysical laws as the real world does, and are not making any allowances for this.

I've often smiled at the thought of DM'ing for 'realism advocates', and how straightjacketing it would be - and how people would, in short order, express a desire not to play:
*You may play a fighter or rogue, no problem.
*You may play a barbarian, but will not receive Rage - that is a mental disorder, not a special ability.
*You may play a cleric, but will receive no spells. God doesn't work like that.
*You may play a druid, but will receive no spells or 'nature' ability, and certainly not any sort of bonded companion. Go hug a tree.
*You may play a bard, but will receive no spells. Bardic Lore is the set of encyclopedias you're toting around - once you can afford such priceless works, that is.
*You may play a monk - Hare Krishna, Jackie Chan. Don't expect any abilities a fighter can't get, though.
*You may NOT play a wizard or sorcerer. They don't exist. No real world foundations. Entirely made up.

Oh, and everyone is a human. No exceptions.

What lets me do this (aside from I'm the DM and it's my game)? Why, realism. And in my opinion, this is the sort of game that cleaving to a 'realism' line gets us. No magic. No enchanted beasts. No realms of the Fantastic. Nothing. That's a world I already live in, thanks very much, and this one is more than enough.
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Wolfhound75
Learned Scribe

USA
215 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2012 :  15:27:16  Show Profile Send Wolfhound75 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is turning into a Fantasy Armor discussion. I propose we move this to a new scroll to continue this without hijacking the OP's original intent.


Good Hunting!

"Firepower - if it's not working, you're not using enough." ~ Military Proverb

"If at first you do succeed, you must've rolled a natural 20!"
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4597 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2012 :  15:41:07  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree with the drive to go back to the thread's original purpose! I think I was part of the derailing attempt, and I apologize.

Armor of all kinds is and should be a matter of taste--I happen to prefer more function over form-fitting, but that's me. I'm not terribly swayed by the "varying physics" argument--boobs still bounce around regardless of fantasy world (I mean, isn't that the point?). But to each his own. Armor in fantasy is more for style, less for function.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars"
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Wolfhound75
Learned Scribe

USA
215 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2012 :  15:44:09  Show Profile Send Wolfhound75 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
New scroll posted.


Good Hunting!

"Firepower - if it's not working, you're not using enough." ~ Military Proverb

"If at first you do succeed, you must've rolled a natural 20!"
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TBeholder
Great Reader

2025 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2012 :  18:38:27  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
GAZ5: The Elves of Alfheim cover by Clyde Caldwell seems to be the earliest appearance and the inspiration for development of the drow at all.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2012 :  00:16:33  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

At Marc:

I like the one riding a beast. And the beast itself.

Every beginning has an end.
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5055 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2012 :  20:36:10  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sorry, TBeholder, but that just can't be. Gary wrote the (ancient mythological) drow into the D&D game (in the physical form the game casts them in) long before TSR started any work on any Known World/Mystara products (i.e. long before the first GAZ appeared). I know. I was around an buying all of the stuff as it came out.
love,
THO
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Zerak-Tul
Acolyte

Denmark
4 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2012 :  23:27:32  Show Profile  Visit Zerak-Tul's Homepage Send Zerak-Tul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Partial to this since I commissioned the piece. In my mind that would be as light a grey as you'd find in drow, ranging all the way to your obsidian-black.

Same artist here, but I feel this one suffers a little from smurf-syndrome with the blue-tinged skin.

Another favorite, that inspired me commissioning a painting in the first place :)

Another good male image, mercenary type.
Lastly a beautiful image of a female with a snake whip.

Sadly there's just such a high ratio of crap drow imagery to good stuff. All kinds of weird coloration, from being as light skinned as you'd expect from a moon elf, to having oddly colored hair, skin, eyes, etc. or just facial features that do not match with the elven lineage. Or the endless droves of Drizzt clones D:
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Imp
Learned Scribe

231 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2012 :  23:37:26  Show Profile Send Imp a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Any drow from Cyzra is how I imagine most of them (most, because in my games drow can have much more diverse skin, hair and eye colors, gray skin, white/silver hair and red eyes being the most common).

[url=http://expensiveautomobile.com/2009-bmw-3-series-uk-version/]2009 bmw 3 series uk version[/url] [url=http://expensiveautomobile.com/2009-bmw-3-series-touring-uk-version/]2009 bmw 3 series touring uk version[/url]
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader

USA
3085 Posts

Posted - 29 Feb 2012 :  00:33:35  Show Profile Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Marc

There aren't many drow pictures on our computer, a few of them that I like

albino

this

this

albino2

this

Anomander

drow

mount

albino

albino



Some of these are cool but a few look like blatant rip-offs from WOW and Devil May Cry

Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin

Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2

Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore

USA
1279 Posts

Posted - 29 Feb 2012 :  01:44:56  Show Profile  Visit Mournblade's Homepage Send Mournblade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478

quote:
Originally posted by Marc

There aren't many drow pictures on our computer, a few of them that I like

albino

this

this

albino2

this

Anomander

drow

mount

albino

albino



Some of these are cool but a few look like blatant rip-offs from WOW and Devil May Cry



Or African Spirit Masks.

A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to...
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 02 Mar 2012 :  00:56:55  Show Profile Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ah! One of my favorite subjects, lol! Since we're linking to drow art, here's a personal favorite of mine- okay, I'm biased because a fellow poster on Chosen of Eilistraee did it for me, but other than his skin tone being a bit too light, this is a great rendition of my drow bard Lothir. (who has been lazing about in the inn here for FAR too long, methinks. I do believe he's probably finished off most of their elverquisst stock by now, lol!)

link: Clicky!

Sorry, I'm no good at making links "pretty". Maybe a Mod could help? (hint- looking at you, Sage!)


Edit: I forgot, the link is also in my siggy, in shorter form....

Edit 2: I, too, am a huge fan of both Mavrosh and Cyrza on DV!!

Mod edit: Cast shrinky link. And you were looking at the wrong guy.

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188

Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u

Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 02 Mar 2012 04:31:43
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 02 Mar 2012 :  21:43:44  Show Profile Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks Wooly- He was just the one I thought of first..... Doesn't mean I don't still love ya, you big furry lug, LOL!!

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188

Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u
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TBeholder
Great Reader

2025 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2012 :  09:50:10  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

Sorry, TBeholder, but that just can't be. Gary wrote the (ancient mythological) drow into the D&D game (in the physical form the game casts them in) long before TSR started any work on any Known World/Mystara products (i.e. long before the first GAZ appeared). I know. I was around an buying all of the stuff as it came out.

Ancient mythological Dark Elves? But what was the first appearance? I am vaguely sure there was some mention of hidden evil elves rumors, though can't remember where.

As to Mystara vs. Greyhawk, you're right, of course. Just checked "Vault of the Drow" (which seems to be the first dedicated material) - it's by Gygax, and it's 1981. I thought it was printed later than this, all that early edition mess (it's AD&D) confused me.
Ha, and the cover already got the snake... er... tentacle whip.
quote:
Originally posted by Zerak-Tul

Sadly there's just such a high ratio of crap drow imagery to good stuff.
If 9:1, it's Sturgeon's Law - that is, pretty much standard for everything.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch

Edited by - TBeholder on 03 Mar 2012 10:04:42
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore

1965 Posts

Posted - 05 Mar 2012 :  17:41:34  Show Profile Send Fellfire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What's cooler than a drow? How about a drow with a lightsabre. Check out the gallery for other cool pics including Storm Silverhand.

Misanthorpe

Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.

"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises

Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out


Edited by - Fellfire on 05 Mar 2012 18:10:41
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Faraer
Great Reader

3308 Posts

Posted - 05 Mar 2012 :  23:38:41  Show Profile  Visit Faraer's Homepage Send Faraer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
But what was the first appearance? I am vaguely sure there was some mention of hidden evil elves rumors, though can't remember where.

Monster Manual (1977) p. 39: 'The "Black Elves," or drow, are only legend . . .'
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  03:04:59  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire

What's cooler than a drow? How about a drow with a lightsabre. Check out the gallery for other cool pics including Storm Silverhand.


Lightsabres are children's toys.

Every beginning has an end.
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TBeholder
Great Reader

2025 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  08:27:20  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire

What's cooler than a drow? How about a drow with a lightsabre.
Eh. I thought about prodding someone to do a FR-canonical thing. That is, with a Chromatic Blade. Besides, it obviously allows to apply much better effects.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
33852 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  10:47:08  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire

What's cooler than a drow? How about a drow with a lightsabre. Check out the gallery for other cool pics including Storm Silverhand.


Lightsabres are children's toys.



Dunno about you, but I'm not letting my kid play with anything that could cut easily cut my car in half.

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