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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 09:29:31
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is there already a connection between the nilshai (Unapproachable East) and the sharn? it looks like one is just begging to be made.
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2012 : 18:11:03
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| I'll second this question, and share some reasoning. Two races with trilateral symmetry (not a common configuration for life forms, at least in the D&D worlds and on Earth), both with powerful magical abilities, and clearly not originally native to Faerun (or even Toril, in all probability). The question then becomes, what is it about the star elves that has the nilshai so upset (because the star elves clearly are not - from Faerun's point of view - the menace that the phaerimm are)? Could the creation of Sildeyuir have impacted the nilshai's natural habitat in some way? This might be a question for Ed... although Rich Baker and Sean K Reynolds might be the better people to ask; they have been active at Candlekeep in the past... |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 05 Feb 2012 18:12:34 |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2012 : 18:42:17
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the trilateral symmetry (nice technical term, btw) was my initial thought too, but then i went off on a tangent.
1. the star elves of the Yuirwood are harassed by nilshai, which have a wormy body, 3 legs, 3 tentacles with 3-fingered hands, and 3 eyes.
2. the sharn, which have a wormy body, 3 heads, and three 3-fingered hands on each of their 3 arms... were once elves. hopefully that's not a spoiler for anyone.
3. ...?
4. connection!
and my theory commenced at this point. but i haven't read the Blackstaff novel, which i'm guessing has some sharndelvings which don't appear elsewhere. so my theory is kinda blind. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2012 : 22:35:43
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| First, you must read Blackstaff. Second, do you have a third point to your process, or is it the "missing link"? How's this for a start to the third point: The nilshai are originally from the Far Realm, and the first sharn were created by willing elves in order to fight them. Beyond that, including anything that would be relevant canon-lore-wise, I have nothing. I'll try to do some research on this. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 05 Feb 2012 22:36:21 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2012 : 21:50:03
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My quickly cobbled-together theory:
Nilshai are the originals (either natural, or previously created 'elsewhere'). Sharn are the ones that are created through a magic ritual (which was trying to duplicate the Nilshai, or create something damn close).
Ergo, all Sharn are artificial, and if Sharn procreate (if such things are possible), they would probably create a true Nilshai.
IMO, of course.
This thread just gave me a great idea for something thats been nagging at me concerning the Hordlands (and by extension, Zakhara). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Feb 2012 21:55:13 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 18:43:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Two races with trilateral symmetry (not a common configuration for life forms, at least in the D&D worlds and on Earth)
There were a few in Spelljammer lore, though.
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
The nilshai are originally from the Far Realm,
Far Realm appeared as not fitting anywhere "universal origin" retcon for everything with tentacles only in "The Gates of Firestorm Peak" (Player's Options era) - IMHO, rather unfortunately, since i'm not a fan of cthulhentacles and Bruce Cordell wrote great stuff before he began sticking this sort of ornament everywhere. 
I'd swear i saw a reference to Nilshai in something AD&D2, though. No idea where, but most cute things stuffed into Far Realm were previously scattered around existing little nice places, like Demiplane of Nightmares. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2012 : 14:04:52
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| According to the Ecology of the Sharn, in the core origins, the sharns are from a destroyed universe, appear to be like a symbiont that preserves information. Nilshai seem to do the opposite. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2012 : 04:04:11
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Unfortunately, Steven Schend went an entirely different route with them. 
So we wind-up with 'true sharn', and those deity-created amalgams.
Unless we go with the 'new lore overwrites old lore' paradigm, in which case we would have to disregard that bit you just posted (although I prefer that to what they are now - being 'smooshed together' people ain't so great, IMO).
The Nilshai seem more related to Phaerimm, going by that. We could theorize that the 'true Sharn' were enemies of the Phaerimm, and in order to fend them off the deities of Toril got together and turned volunteers into the 'false Sharn'. That still doesn't quite jell with the storyline from Blackstaff (which I still find a bit confusing - a lot was going on there at the end). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Feb 2012 04:04:34 |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2012 : 07:21:19
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Two races with trilateral symmetry (not a common configuration for life forms, at least in the D&D worlds and on Earth)
There were a few in Spelljammer lore, though.
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
The nilshai are originally from the Far Realm,
Far Realm appeared as not fitting anywhere "universal origin" retcon for everything with tentacles only in "The Gates of Firestorm Peak" (Player's Options era) - IMHO, rather unfortunately, since i'm not a fan of cthulhentacles and Bruce Cordell wrote great stuff before he began sticking this sort of ornament everywhere.
I'd swear i saw a reference to Nilshai in something AD&D2, though. No idea where, but most cute things stuffed into Far Realm were previously scattered around existing little nice places, like Demiplane of Nightmares.
Might you be thinking of the dharculus from the 2e 'Guide to the Ethereal'?
There were a lot of lovecraftian/far realms references there in that book, but they were pretty subtle (unlike the beat you in the face way they were in 4e IMO, which really destroyed the charm of Cordell's 2e material along those lines) |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2012 : 20:54:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The Nilshai seem more related to Phaerimm, going by that. We could theorize that the 'true Sharn' were enemies of the Phaerimm, and in order to fend them off the deities of Toril got together and turned volunteers into the 'false Sharn'. That still doesn't quite jell with the storyline from Blackstaff (which I still find a bit confusing - a lot was going on there at the end).
I'll agree with you on the ending to Blackstaff... and I like your connection of the Nilshai and the Phaerimm. What if the Nilshai are a Phaerimm-created warrior-race, or even an early stage in the Phaerimm life cycle? The latter may not be likely (or even possible) in the context of established Phaerimm lore (the pre-Return-of-Shade segment of which I've nearly completely forgotten now, having been separated from my pre-3E sources for nearly six years now), but the former is an intriguing possibility. We've already had a strong suggestion in canon that the Phaerimm and the Sharn are connected somehow (I do recall that much), but more than that is beyond my recall at the moment. Either way, we have a rather interesting pattern... three races, each with trilateral anatomy. I think there's definitely a connection... but what exactly is it, and how do the multiple sharn origin tales fit in?  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2012 : 20:59:34
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Oh... there's your third point, xaeyruudh...
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
the trilateral symmetry (nice technical term, btw) was my initial thought too, but then i went off on a tangent.
1. the star elves of the Yuirwood are harassed by nilshai, which have a wormy body, 3 legs, 3 tentacles with 3-fingered hands, and 3 eyes.
2. the sharn, which have a wormy body, 3 heads, and three 3-fingered hands on each of their 3 arms... were once elves. hopefully that's not a spoiler for anyone.
3. ...?
2.1. the alternate sharn origin cited by Markustay, the details of which I'm sketchy on; perhaps Mark (or Steven Schend) can refresh our memories?
3. the phaerimm, which have a wormy body and 3 arms (which may or may not have 3-fingered hands, but I do recall that there's only one hand per arm)...
quote:
4. connection!
and my theory commenced at this point. but i haven't read the Blackstaff novel, which i'm guessing has some sharndelvings which don't appear elsewhere. so my theory is kinda blind.
So is mine... but considering that neither the sharn nor the phaerimm have obvious eyes, that only makes sense...  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 12 Feb 2012 21:00:44 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2012 : 03:52:43
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Okay, while searching around the Interwebs, looking for the Tirapheg, I came across this little tidbit.
Interesting, no?
To me, it seems the 'first universe' may have been populated by many tripartite beings, and some may have become part of the new universe (created with the Great Wheel), but most others would have rebelled against 'the new order', refused to be part of the universe, and instead remained outside of it... in The Far Realms.
So while most creatures in this universe are bilateral, the ones from that primal, unformed sea (Elemental Maelstrom?) were trilateral. At least some of them, anyway. These beings would be ancient even by the standards of the Creator Races. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Feb 2012 03:54:36 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2012 : 03:00:24
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| Interesting... and I'm particularly intrigued by the comment at the end of the last post on that linked page: the mentioning of Rule-of-Three. What if RoT is the creator of these races? Do we know how old Rule-of-Three is? |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2012 : 03:06:43
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So... I was going to comment on how we now have three such races in the Realms with the addition of the phaerimm, and then Mark brings up more... three more, in fact... This is kinda spooky...  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3736 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2012 : 06:21:00
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quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
2. the sharn, which have a wormy body, 3 heads, and three 3-fingered hands on each of their 3 arms... were once elves. hopefully that's not a spoiler for anyone.
-Not all Sharn are Elves, and vice-versa. The Sharn collective features various non-Elves. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
657 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2012 : 06:48:28
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| The oldest race in Spelljammer, the Juna, were trilateral |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2012 : 23:41:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Marc
The oldest race in Spelljammer, the Juna, were trilateral
Hmm... so what if the Juna are the creator race for the Nilshai, Sharn, and Phaerimm... and any other trilateral races out there? It means that the Nilshai aren't originally from the Far Realm, but Spelljammer preceded the Far Realm in D&D canon and it could very well be that the Far Realm can be accessed via the phlogiston in some way, so I see no reason to retcon anything just yet.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
657 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2012 : 15:34:22
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In the ecology article it says that the sharns take their name from the dying world of their birth. Their signature tripartite form is an imperfect imitation of the Juna, an extinct species from the world of Sharn.
Specifically says that nothing about them is from the Far Realm. |
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Edited by - Marc on 22 Feb 2012 15:34:45 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2012 : 08:30:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Marc
In the ecology article it says that the sharns take their name from the dying world of their birth. Their signature tripartite form is an imperfect imitation of the Juna, an extinct species from the world of Sharn.
Specifically says that nothing about them is from the Far Realm.
Many thanks for the lore update, Marc! |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Nilshai vs Sharn?
