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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe

USA
470 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  05:37:41  Show Profile  Visit Old Man Harpell's Homepage Send Old Man Harpell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

NO you are belittling the REALMS WITH SELLPLAGUE, AND SHATTERED REALMS.

It needs to stop!

You can critque the 4E Realms all you want. JUST USE DECENCY AND RESPECT. I don't see people useing names for the post ToT REALMS.



Again, this is your interpretation. It is also one I do not share. I believe my interpretation is accurate, and yours is not. I do not expect everyone to have warm fuzzies and butterflies over such labels, but the setting hardly inspires warm fuzzies and butterflies to begin with.

I will not try to disabuse you of your perceptions, mistaken though I perceive them to be.
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe

USA
586 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  05:47:32  Show Profile  Visit Tyrant's Homepage Send Tyrant a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Therise

quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant

I welcome you to point out where I have said anyone is wrong. I may believe that their idea won't work and I have said as much. However, I am stating an opinion, not fact. The statement was made that the case wasn't being made. This is quite innacurrate and shows that apparently someone does have to keep saying it. I get your point too but I am not asking you to stop posting in a thread that clearly invites both views, am I? I'm open to being convinced. Anyone is free to believe that or not, but it is the truth. If no one will answer the tough questions after they are asked repeatedly that tells me they have no answers and haven't thought about those questions. This is a potentially monumental undertaking that could have devastating consequences no matter which way they go (yes, that includes my preferrence). All I'm asking is to see that someone is willing to think through the potential consequences of their choice and to quit making assumptions that at this point should be known to not be based in fact as the facts have not presented themselves. If I have ever said otherwise let me be clear now, I am making assumptions and putting forth hypotheticals. Call me arrogant, but I believe them to be informed based on my experience in a customer centric business and in dealing with other IPs as they make these same choices. If I have come across as an ass to anyone who didn't choose to go down that path first then I apologize.


Perhaps that's the problem. I don't feel the need to explain my reasoning in deep detail. That doesn't mean I haven't thought about it a great deal, it doesn't mean I haven't considered the "hard questions". I resent the constant implication that I've somehow arrived at my choice through poor thinking and perhaps random chance. That somehow, I'm just out to hurt the Realms, or worse, that I want something better but I'm hurting the Realms without intending to do so.

If I don't go into deep detail, it might simply mean that I'm tired of answering once and then having my thoughts picked apart by someone who vehemently disagrees with me. It's all just way too much drama, considering that we haven't even heard back about the D&D Experience playtests of the rules set, much less their actual plans for the Realms. But oh... somehow I'm the mean one and I'm kicking the Realms while it's face down in an alley. Seriously, could an accusation be more drama-filled and insulting?



I had something here, but you know what, it's not even worth it. Believe what you want to believe.
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell

quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

OMH can you please quit belittling the Realms.

It has no place in these halls.

Sure I understand that you don't like the 4E Realms, understandable, we all get it.

Quit kicking her while she is down.

For the record I am a fan of the Realms, all versions of it even if I find parts alittle distasteful. Doesn't mean that I will badmouth it!

IT'S TIME THE MODS PUT A STOP TO THIS NONSENSE!


I realize that there is more than one individual who wishes to completely shut down any and all critique of 4th Edition,

Who?
quote:
and I realize that much of that is borne from the worry that Wizbro might possibly stop supporting it. But I rather think trying to suppress debate is not the answer to any issues you may have.


Did they say that was their reason? I only see one person coming across as trying to supress debate. No, it's not you.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code

Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest

Edited by - Tyrant on 23 Jan 2012 05:58:47
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Therise
Master of Realmslore

1265 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  06:17:07  Show Profile Send Therise a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So now I'm all about suppressing debate?

Yeesh.

4E Realms was awful, but it's water under the Boareskyr Bridge. Let's make 5E Realms truly shine!

Edited by - Therise on 23 Jan 2012 06:18:06
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe

USA
586 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  06:35:36  Show Profile  Visit Tyrant's Homepage Send Tyrant a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Therise

So now I'm all about suppressing debate?

Yeesh.



Interesting that you make that assumption and take every criticism I have as a personal attack.

Brimstone, good luck.



Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code

Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest
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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
2890 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  06:45:03  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks Tyrant!

Heaven help us if Candlekeep is welcoming to players, or fans of all versions of the Realms.

Oh, thats right the 4E Realms don't count in some scribes opinions.

People wonder why Candlekeep has such a bad rep...

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe

USA
470 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  06:59:29  Show Profile  Visit Old Man Harpell's Homepage Send Old Man Harpell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

Thanks Tyrant!

Heaven help us if Candlekeep is welcoming to players, or fans of all versions of the Realms.

Oh, thats right the 4E Realms don't count in some scribes opinions.

People wonder why Candlekeep has such a bad rep...


Again, these are your perceptions, and ones that in my opinion are grossly inaccurate. But you certainly have the right to express them, even if you don't believe others should.
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe

USA
586 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  07:02:22  Show Profile  Visit Tyrant's Homepage Send Tyrant a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell

quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

Thanks Tyrant!

Heaven help us if Candlekeep is welcoming to players, or fans of all versions of the Realms.

Oh, thats right the 4E Realms don't count in some scribes opinions.

People wonder why Candlekeep has such a bad rep...


Again, these are your perceptions, and ones that in my opinion are grossly inaccurate. But you certainly have the right to express them, even if you don't believe others should.


In what way do you believe he is mistaken?

Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code

Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31688 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  07:03:56  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Folks, last warning, get back on topic or I'll be forced to seal this scroll.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  07:09:46  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Brimstone, I have never said that the 4E Realms don't count; I would just like to see support for a possible future in which the PCs succeed in preventing the Spellplague through the events of the 3E-closing megamodule trilogy. This is why (despite the numerous well-grounded arguments against it) I believe that a timeline split is needed. I confess, in the early days of 4E, I was very hostile to the whole thing, but I did eventually come to realize that it's what we were given, so I should deal with it. And I did... by moving to Pathfinder and Golarion. With the announcement of D&D Next, I was brought back to the Realms by promises of support for ALL eras and editions. And I, too, Brimstone, support all versions of the Realms... including a version in which the PCs succeed in preventing the Spellplague at the end of the 3.5 Anauroch adventure. It seems to me that the scroll-clogging and debate-stalling has had guilty parties on both sides of the debate, so why don't we all agree now that it should stop, and let everybody express their opinion, regardless of what that opinion is? Anyway, I'm tired and I need to sleep before I say something stupid here; good night.

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe

USA
470 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  07:16:21  Show Profile  Visit Old Man Harpell's Homepage Send Old Man Harpell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant

quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell

quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

Thanks Tyrant!

Heaven help us if Candlekeep is welcoming to players, or fans of all versions of the Realms.

Oh, thats right the 4E Realms don't count in some scribes opinions.

People wonder why Candlekeep has such a bad rep...


Again, these are your perceptions, and ones that in my opinion are grossly inaccurate. But you certainly have the right to express them, even if you don't believe others should.


In what way do you believe he is mistaken?


That is a fair question.

*His statement that, by using 'Sellplague' and 'Shattered Realms', we are somehow 'belittling' the Forgotten Realms/works of Ed Greenwood. I contend this is not the case. If I intend to belittle something, I make no bones about the fact that I am doing exactly that. And I try to make others understand why I am belittling it. Otherwise, the charge is sensationalistic and tinged with hysterics.

*Because what I perceive as fair critique is something that he perceives as 'hysterics', he believes that I and others like me had best shut up, go sit in a corner, and mind our places. I will concede it is entirely possible he is not intending to say that, but that is exactly the message being conveyed. And I have absolutely no intention of paying credence to what I perceive, as I said before, being hysteria-tinged sensationalism.

I cannot recall, even once, where I (or anyone else, for that matter) stated that 4th Edition proponents should not be allowed to state their views. The statement:

"Heaven help us if Candlekeep is welcoming to players, or fans of all versions of the Realms."

I cannot recall a time where anything like edition-based apartheid has ever been advocated, nor would it be tolerated by any moderator or scribe worth the title. Again, I am detecting more than a tinge of hysterics and sensationalism. Perhaps as a means of being the loudest in the room (so to speak), or to bully someone into shutting up and minding their place - or not, I don't know, but that is the perception I am getting regardless.

I could continue, but you get the gist, I'm sure.

Edit: I was still typing when Sage posted, thus I will speak no more on this topic here.

- OMH

Edited by - Old Man Harpell on 23 Jan 2012 07:20:02
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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  07:17:26  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wow... a whole lot went on while I was writing that... and it's not something I'm going to get involved in right now. Could everyone just please read my preceding post with a clear head and an open mind, and tell me that I'm not right (and I'm not including the timeline split in that; that's something the folks at WotC are going to have to decide on)... if you can do that without bashing earlier editions and with a well-reasoned argument, I'll get out of the debate completely. Thanks.

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.
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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
2890 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  07:18:03  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Jakk I have no problem with PC's possibly stopping Shar and Cyric.

What I have a problem with is scribes belittling the 4E Realms. Like it or not it's cannon.

If WotC was to reboot, I would be fine with that.

That is not my point.

My problem is the name calling that is going on towards the 4E Realms...

I don't see crappy names for the ToT Realms.

Maybe Lady Swiftstrike was right...


"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
2890 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  07:25:32  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The apartheid was when scribes wanted to smoother and squash any and all 4E Realms discussions a few years back. Or they wanted any and all 4E Realms discussions to go in it's own special ghetto, I mean section, so they don't have to see anything related to the 4E Realms. Get your facts straight.


"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  07:32:39  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

Jakk I have no problem with PC's possibly stopping Shar and Cyric.

What I have a problem with is scribes belittling the 4E Realms. Like it or not it's cannon.

If WotC was to reboot, I would be fine with that.

That is not my point.

My problem is the name calling that is going on towards the 4E Realms...

I don't see crappy names for the ToT Realms.

Maybe Lady Swiftstrike was right...



I agree with you on all points except the last, Brimstone... and I'll leave it there.

And I've made my apologies several times in the recent (and not-so-recent) past, as I used to be one of the 4E name-callers... I took a few months off from this place, mostly because I was playing Pathfinder in Golarion and 3.5 in a friend's homebrew world (both of which games are still going on, btw), and came back to CK after hearing the announcement about D&D Next. I'm hoping it allows all of us to have the Realms we want, but I don't know if they can accomplish that without a timeline split at 1385DR; as you've mentioned, this kind of crap doesn't happen with the 2nd Edition Realms, even though I would be fine with the ToT not happening too. Anyway, as I mentioned a couple of posts earlier, I'm very tired, so I'm going to sleep very soon. I have one realization to leave with Ed, then I'm off. Good night, all; please try to play nice.

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.

Edited by - Jakk on 24 Jan 2012 18:29:39
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Jorkens
Great Reader

Norway
2950 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  07:34:44  Show Profile Send Jorkens a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

The apartheid was when scribes wanted to smoother and squash any and all 4E Realms discussions a few years back. Or they wanted any and all 4E Realms discussions to go in it's own special ghetto, I mean section, so they don't have to see anything related to the 4E Realms. Get your facts straight.





And here we go with the terms again.

Whose apartheid (I still wonder what was meant with the Jonestown analogy by one poster) is that? those against non-canon discussions, critique of specific authors work, of specific editions or the grognards. As I remember there were no clear borders in the debate concerning a special area for the 4ed. (which I myself was clearly against but as a grognard that is probably just some plot i am a part of right?) and the same suggestion has been made concerning non-canon ideas by the way.

Why do I even come here?

Edited by - Jorkens on 23 Jan 2012 08:05:15
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ROMVS
Acolyte

USA
3 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  08:34:15  Show Profile Send ROMVS a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wow so much drama. I'm new here but this is not very welcoming to say the least. I've been playing since the basic set came out and even though all the editions seem to getting farther and farther and more convoluted from the basic set, there are some things that are improving such as multi-classes and specializations. I just hope they don't keep changing it for the sake of changing and selling new sets but rather for easier play and ease of dming. As for the Forgotten Realms, it will remain my favorite settings for fantasy novels. I have most of the FR novels from tattered to new condition except for some of the new ones, I'll buy them later as paperback. Btw, you can read previews on amazon's kindle for android. Great for deciding to buy asap or wait as paperback or in bargain sales.
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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
2890 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  09:09:10  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote


Sorry folks. Bowing out. See you guys and gals around...

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore

India
1591 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  11:40:44  Show Profile Send Thauranil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ROMVS

Wow so much drama. I'm new here but this is not very welcoming to say the least. I've been playing since the basic set came out and even though all the editions seem to getting farther and farther and more convoluted from the basic set, there are some things that are improving such as multi-classes and specializations. I just hope they don't keep changing it for the sake of changing and selling new sets but rather for easier play and ease of dming. As for the Forgotten Realms, it will remain my favorite settings for fantasy novels. I have most of the FR novels from tattered to new condition except for some of the new ones, I'll buy them later as paperback. Btw, you can read previews on amazon's kindle for android. Great for deciding to buy asap or wait as paperback or in bargain sales.


Youre not kidding. I am fairly new as well but have noticed that 4e generally leads to all out war when discussed.
But to be fair there are some very good discussions about other issues.
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe

485 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  12:42:02  Show Profile  Visit Arcanus's Homepage Send Arcanus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just goes to show how tough it's going to be for wizbro to please everybody. I think that they will just try to please the majority and it seems like the majority don't like the spellplague very much....
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3372 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  13:35:54  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks OMH for feeling that Wizbro should listen to me, I think so too!

And getting back to the topic, as an avid fan of many iterations of the Realms over the years, there are always going to be things that I love and hate about whatever is current about the Realms. I think the best solution is to move forward with the setting, yet detailing everything they can about different eras of play.

I, for one, would be WAY more willing to buy a product that has varying eras of play within the setting than a product that only focuses on one or possibly two eras of play within that setting. I think the Multi-Era sort of supplements has the best chance of snagging the most amount of fans. Of course there will be hold outs, as I see what Therise says by not supporting supplements if the Spellplauge isn't shelved into an alternate timeline (at least, that what I perceived).

What I don't see happening is an alternative timeline because.....well I feel there would be just too much crap to deal with in terms of setting, NPCs, authors, fans and the like for it to take off the ground. I also don't see them sweeping the Spellplague under the rug or resetting the Realms at a specific point in time that re-shapes what the future might bring. It's perfectly fine for that to happen in our own homegames and I'd even help created someone's version of it, but not the "Official" Realms.


I'd also like to say that I think I'm being pretty resonable as I don't want every single product focusing on the Spellplague/1479 DR Realms. I WANT to see more lore. I want to see what happens to Arylin Moonblade, to Liriel, to the multiple Manshoon Clones, etc. I want to see more fleshing out of the Realms (if not personally, then just to see other's happiness in it's in-depth description and detailing). I don't feel everything has to be 4E (and beyond) with the Realms in the next iteration of Dungeons and Dragons.

I just want the opportuinity to continue my campaigns in the Spellplague and have that be considered on par with everything else. I don't want to have to pick and choose which era or timeline via suppelements and be bummed out because they put out a HUGE and AWESOME book dedicated to Cormyr, but it doesn't have info about how to play (meaning, what's going on or what adventures there are) in 1479 DR or about possible changes during the Spellplague because that forces me to play in that timeline and I just will ignore it.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Therise
Master of Realmslore

1265 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  14:25:18  Show Profile Send Therise a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

...What I don't see happening is an alternative timeline because.....well I feel there would be just too much crap to deal with in terms of setting, NPCs, authors, fans and the like for it to take off the ground...


Same amount of work is required whether it's continued or rebooted into an alternate timeline.

Forge ahead with 4E, and you'll have to attempt to make it palatable for those who didn't like 4E. They're already displeased, so it'd have to be some amazingly good lore, etc. to convince them to come back. Because at the end of this scenario, you have to take the sting out of 4E, and what if people don't like even 30% of these explanations and fixes that have been made?

Go with a reboot and alternate timeline, you don't have to explain anything about 4E. At the branch point, you come up with something new and non-apocalyptic, based on the hooks and roots at the end of 3E. In this version, it also erases the 100-year jump, so all the people who were missed are now "back" and can move on. Sure, you run the risk of turning off 4E enthusiasts, but their alternate timeline is still there - and weren't these the people who wanted lore-light Realms with minimal fuss, anyway?

So really, it's work for WotC either way.

I know which I prefer.


4E Realms was awful, but it's water under the Boareskyr Bridge. Let's make 5E Realms truly shine!
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3372 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  14:52:01  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Therise

Same amount of work is required whether it's continued or rebooted into an alternate timeline.

Forge ahead with 4E, and you'll have to attempt to make it palatable for those who didn't like 4E. They're already displeased, so it'd have to be some amazingly good lore, etc. to convince them to come back. Because at the end of this scenario, you have to take the sting out of 4E, and what if people don't like even 30% of these explanations and fixes that have been made?

Go with a reboot and alternate timeline, you don't have to explain anything about 4E. At the branch point, you come up with something new and non-apocalyptic, based on the hooks and roots at the end of 3E. In this version, it also erases the 100-year jump, so all the people who were missed are now "back" and can move on. Sure, you run the risk of turning off 4E enthusiasts, but their alternate timeline is still there - and weren't these the people who wanted lore-light Realms with minimal fuss, anyway?

So really, it's work for WotC either way.

I know which I prefer.



Agian, it's Therise's way or the highway and I feel (and hope) that WotC attempts to please more people of ALL eras than shelving the Spellplague fans off onto their little area and going after people who haven't given them a dime in 5 years. At least with supporting ALL eras of play, they can appease people who wish for Realmslore of specific areas and let them decide what to do with that enclosed material.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Therise
Master of Realmslore

1265 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  15:12:02  Show Profile Send Therise a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

quote:
Originally posted by Therise

Same amount of work is required whether it's continued or rebooted into an alternate timeline.

Forge ahead with 4E, and you'll have to attempt to make it palatable for those who didn't like 4E. They're already displeased, so it'd have to be some amazingly good lore, etc. to convince them to come back. Because at the end of this scenario, you have to take the sting out of 4E, and what if people don't like even 30% of these explanations and fixes that have been made?

Go with a reboot and alternate timeline, you don't have to explain anything about 4E. At the branch point, you come up with something new and non-apocalyptic, based on the hooks and roots at the end of 3E. In this version, it also erases the 100-year jump, so all the people who were missed are now "back" and can move on. Sure, you run the risk of turning off 4E enthusiasts, but their alternate timeline is still there - and weren't these the people who wanted lore-light Realms with minimal fuss, anyway?

So really, it's work for WotC either way.

I know which I prefer.



Agian, it's Therise's way or the highway and I feel (and hope) that WotC attempts to please more people of ALL eras than shelving the Spellplague fans off onto their little area and going after people who haven't given them a dime in 5 years. At least with supporting ALL eras of play, they can appease people who wish for Realmslore of specific areas and let them decide what to do with that enclosed material.


It's hardly my way "or the highway", but thanks for totally mischaracterizing me. All I'm saying is that it's a ton of work for WotC no matter what route they go. It's work this way, or it's work that way.

My preferred solution is what's best for me. I do not remotely begin to pretend that it's the best for everyone, or what WotC (or anyone else "should" do). So saying that it's "Therise's way or the highway" is a gross misrepresentation of my position, not to mention more than a little rude.

Just because I explain the conditions under which I'd buy a 5E Realms, that doesn't mean I'm suggesting it's the one, right, true, and only way. However, I have seen many people say (with total conviction) that "forging ahead is the only way to save the Realms"... as if that's pure truth, and they cannot be questioned.

I have stated my preference, under what conditions I'd personally buy a 5E Realms, and that it's just my preference, multiple times. Yet here I am again, having to defend myself for just stating what I personally want.

Thanks so much!

4E Realms was awful, but it's water under the Boareskyr Bridge. Let's make 5E Realms truly shine!

Edited by - Therise on 23 Jan 2012 15:15:45
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe

USA
586 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  15:35:03  Show Profile  Visit Tyrant's Homepage Send Tyrant a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Same amount of work is required whether it's continued or rebooted into an alternate timeline.

An alternate timeline will mean that someone absolutely has to monitor what both timelines do in the "past" that they now share and keep it all straight. That position does not currently exist. Hard decisions have to be made regarding popular NPCs, nations, etc. Do both settings get Elminster or does the Thayan Civil War keep going since it started before the Spellplague, for instance? Someone has to create a product explaining what the hell is going on to the average consumer who doesn't follow everything online and wants to know why there are seemingly two sets of FR books now.

You know what, nevermind. I've tried illustrating what I believe the logistical problems will be and get told I've written a mini novel or have it totally ignored.
quote:
Forge ahead with 4E, and you'll have to attempt to make it palatable for those who didn't like 4E. They're already displeased, so it'd have to be some amazingly good lore, etc. to convince them to come back. Because at the end of this scenario, you have to take the sting out of 4E, and what if people don't like even 30% of these explanations and fixes that have been made?

Why do they have to make it palatable for those who don't like 4E? I agree that's a desireable goal, but I thought the larger goal was to show them that they are still going to make products to cover the parts of the timeline they prefer. Some people will be pleased with nothing short of destroying the 4E setting and to be honest, I think it is a mistake to try to win over those people. It was a mistake to try to win over those who wanted a chunk of the Realms destroyed in the first place, but you don't double down and make the same mistake again in the hopes it will fix things. The bridge has already been crossed and burned, you can't cross it again (and burn it from the other side this time).
quote:
Go with a reboot and alternate timeline, you don't have to explain anything about 4E. At the branch point, you come up with something new and non-apocalyptic, based on the hooks and roots at the end of 3E. In this version, it also erases the 100-year jump, so all the people who were missed are now "back" and can move on. Sure, you run the risk of turning off 4E enthusiasts, but their alternate timeline is still there - and weren't these the people who wanted lore-light Realms with minimal fuss, anyway?

All the people who were missed are back? Khelben died before the Spellplague. Sembia was taken over by Shade, Thay is in the midst of a Civil War, Deep Imaskar's seal has been breached and the future Empress of the surface Imaskari has found the means to achieve her goal, I think Halaster might be dead too, all before the Spellplague.

Why is 4E the alternate? It's the official line right now so logically a change in the past would create the alternate, the non Spellplague timeline. See what I have been trying to get across? One has to be the alternate, and that will lead to dislike before you even release a single product.

As to the much asked for changes, I didn't ask for any of them. I would've voted against them had such a vote occured. However, I enjoy the current setting and want more lore about it. And about the past. How does that square with what you are saying? I think the supporters of the reboot (speaking generally) need to seriously lay off the ideas that they speak for everyone who ever left and that all the people who are against this can be pigeonholed into some neat little box. I didn't ask for the changes. I don't put forth my ideas based on the fear that they will cancel what I like. I will honestly just leave if they do that as they clearly haven't learned anything and the setting may as well be sitting on the deck of the Titanic with the band playing at that point. I don't feel like going down with the ship with another WotC product. It isn't fear, there are plenty of other ways for me to pass the time out there.

To put it in more personal terms, why do I have to get screwed to win you back over and why shouldn't I voice my objection to that idea?


Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code

Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3372 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  15:42:19  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
One, it's not personal so please don't take it as such.

Two, if the powers that be ARE looking at this then your opinions might hold more weight than you think. Espically if it becomes something that others rally behind in ernest.

Three, I don't think it's a mischaracterization of "you" as you've stated that it would take a HECK of a lot of changing and modification to include the Spellplague for you to purchase such supplements. So for you, it might just be "drop the spellplague or make it an alternate timeline or I'm out" sort of situation. Am I wrong in this? I was specifically stating that there is little bending on your part in a solution that might be achieved.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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