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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe

USA
470 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2012 :  08:27:41  Show Profile  Visit Old Man Harpell's Homepage Send Old Man Harpell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gambit

Wooley, love the timeline suggestion, right after C&D is pretty much the perfect point in the timeline, IMO. Failing that I would like to see a Star Trek style reboot. Failing that...I just want the plethora of awesome personalities from the second half of the 1300's to not be dead...and thats the thing, even if they "smooth" things over and downplay the spellplague, if the official timeline remains set in 1480, in official canon these characters are dead.


I suggested a Star Trek-style reboot before, and this does allow both the original timeline and the new timeline to move forward. Where is the original timeline, you ask? Star Trek Online inherited it, and they did a right nice job with it, even going so far as to have Leonard Nimoy voice the entire opening player sequence. It goes Free-To-Play January 20th, so anyone can confirm this at their leisure after that.

And I very much agree that one of the worst things that they did, even more so than trashing Faerun, was the mass extermination of a large majority of the iconic Realms figures, as well as the completely pointless rounds of deicide. I have scrawled notes on how to reverse these when the ideas have struck me - not that Wizbro would ever ask me my opinion.

Thus far (as my players will discover), I have logically worked out only how to bring back Qilue Veladorn, and by extension, her deity (Eilistraee). Of course, Lisa Smedman left several loopholes at the end of The Lady Penitent books, so I've only had to basically 'connect-the-dots' to get to that point. Even the absurd 'Points Of Light', which forced me to use something I'd never, ever needed before (namely a powerful 'patron NPC' to prod the characters along) was (thankfully) not much of an obstacle.

I don't see a reboot in the happening, much as I'd like to see one. But it is possible to bring back the icons, without stretching any suspension of disbelief. I've figured out how to bring one back, and I'm just a grouchy old Gygaxian grognard who has only reluctantly come to accept 4th Edition Realms as having any merit. I would be absolutely stunned (and not in a good way) if WotC and its freelancers couldn't come up with a way to bring back these 'essential personnel' (if I may be so bold as to use that descriptor). These are, to a person, absurdly intelligent people who have created entire alternate realities in their minds. Bringing back the fictional giants of the Realms should be child's play for them.

Of course (as I have said), I don't miss Khelben. That's the one exception.

- OMH
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Gambit
Learned Scribe

110 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2012 :  08:45:56  Show Profile Send Gambit a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell

Of course (as I have said), I don't miss Khelben. That's the one exception.

You hold that wagging tongue of blashphemy, sir!
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Rhewtani
Senior Scribe

USA
508 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2012 :  14:49:12  Show Profile  Send Rhewtani an AOL message Send Rhewtani a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It would just be too dangerous of a precedent.
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe

USA
470 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2012 :  16:08:53  Show Profile  Visit Old Man Harpell's Homepage Send Old Man Harpell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Rhewtani

It would just be too dangerous of a precedent.


Which? Reboot, or bringing back the iconic Realms personalities?

In either case, I must disagree.

In the case of the iconic Realms personalities, it's just a flat-out slam-dunk win to bring them back. They were part of what made the Realms...well...the Realms. Not all of it, no, but they weren't allowed to age, develop, mature, and contribute to their world as long as they might have. They were simply snuffed out and tossed into the rubbish bin. Both through novels like The Lady Penitent, and through callous, flip-the-fans-the-bird mechanics.

A reboot, without continuing to support the Shattered Realms, you have a point. That would be Wizbro doing to the 4th Edition aficionados what it did to everyone else. But I do not see where doing a Star Trek-style reboot, where both timelines receive attention, would be a bad thing, particularly if, for example, they plan to 'support the Realms regardless of era'.

Granted, 1325 DR, 1356 DR, and 1375 DR might all have a backlog of 1st through 3rd Edition material behind them, but a dual timeline allows Wizbro to support the entirety of their fan base. It's like a doughnut shop offering a variety of doughnuts - I personally love maple bars, but I despise cream-filled doughnuts. Two of my players, as I have discovered, hate maple bars (freaks), but have no problem with doughnuts filled with that...stuff.

It might be much the same with Shattered Realms and (for lack of a better term) Rebooted Realms. Ye Olde Realms Shoppe offers the Realms in a variety of flavors, ranging from dates in history ranging from the OGB era, to 1380 (allowing use of backlogged/backdated material), and then giving varying perspectives in what comes afterward. One is the Shattered Realms as we see them today (or what have you), while the other is the Rebooted Realms as the Gambits and the Therises and the OMHs (amongst many, many others) would like to have them...safe, whole, and the Realms as we remember them.

We are not (well, I am not) asking Wizbro to deep-six the Shattered Realms (which it is doubtful they would do, anyways). The request we have is to give us the 'future Realms' that were not tossed into the blender to shoehorn it into their ridiculous 'Points Of Light' foolishness. That mindset worked well enough for Eberron, which was tailor-made for it, and there it should have stayed, making discussions like this unnecessary.

If they are, as they say, going forward with the fans in mind, then they can probably glean the things that fans like. They can offer them choices, without denying anyone else their preferred milieu. I genuinely fail to see how anything here could be a 'dangerous precedent', particularly if it (A) gives the entirety of the Realms adherents what they want, and (B) gives Wizbro an idea of exactly works and sells best, enabling them to support the lines in the best possible fashion. Everyone wins, without advocating denying others being able to participate in a world they have either grown up with over the decades (as I have), or come to know in recent times.

I just don't see how this is a losing proposition. I honestly and truly don't.
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Therise
Master of Realmslore

1265 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2012 :  17:59:46  Show Profile Send Therise a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Honestly, I'd be equally happy with a reboot in a Star Trek '09 style -or- a total retcon/reboot that permanently eliminates the 4E Realms.

A reboot might be the best thing for everyone. It'd remind people that the "real Realms" is the one we make at home, that there are thousands and thousands of variant realities of the Realms. Each one is equally valid, because it's ours, and they're ALL at least slightly different from canon.

The people who clamored for a post-apocalyptic Realms wanted it to be bare bones anyway, not "weighed down" by lore, so it's not like they'd be hurt in any way if it was erased from existence in the canon timeline. And I really don't believe there's any kind of moral imperative here, where you're supposed to take some kind of "higher road". It's a game, not real life, and I'm not about to defend the tender sensibilities of people who hated 1E-3E and advocated to destroy that Realms.

Trends change. People and politics at WotC change, and they will change again.


4E Realms was awful, but it's water under the Boareskyr Bridge. Let's make 5E Realms truly shine!
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore

1338 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2012 :  18:27:49  Show Profile Send Mumadar Ibn Huzal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I wouldn't think a reboot is required. What might make more sense - and was suggested elsewhere on this board - is edition neutral products and allowing the authors of products to chose where in the timeline they want to set their stories/adventures/modules with respect to the existing lore.

There are plenty of holes in the published lore 1E through 4E that could keep writers busy till well past their retirment age and have enough spare for the next generation of writers.

If these products are spread throughout the timeline in a somewhat coordinated matter and include brining the timeline forward in a realms consisted matter, it would keep the world alive for old-school players whose games migh still run in the past (pre-ToT, pre-Spellplague, etc) as well as those new to the world that do not have the wealth of lore at their disposal that some of the older gamers have.

And in addition the world needs an advancing timeline to keep it healthy and interesting for newer generation gamers.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14020 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2012 :  19:25:11  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant

quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

People need to be careful in what they wish for. WotC could reboot the Realms and add all of the 5E stuff(Races, classes, feats, spells, ectera) to it. So you could get A NEW OGB AND A BUNCH OF OTHER STUFF WITH IT. Think long and hard about that. People say look at Dark Sun, yeah WotC added a bunch of 4E stuff to it with it's reboot for 4E.

IMO the reboot talk is an underhanded swipe/jab at 4E.

My two coppers...

Exactly Brimstone. It's Pandora's Box.
I completely expect this.

And it all depends on how much they bring in.

For instance, Genasi were always around. Give them a small canon presence in Calimshan and perhaps down in Zakhara, and we're good (I would actually prefer they move Calimshan* over near the Golden Waters, but that might be asking too much - thats a 'Hard' reboot).

Dragonborn were always around. Sure there were a LOT in Abeir that came over, but FR had them too (and they should merge them with the Khaasta as well - too many similar things is something they really need to fix). Give the 1e/2e ones a presence in Murghom - we knew almost nothing about the place anyway. Also small pockets of them in 2-3 other regions like Sossal, K-T, Maztica, etc).

Tieflings were always around - just sprinkle a few groups of the racial ones in remote places like northern Narfell and the like, and we are good. Or, conversely, say the Spellplague activated the recessive (Fiendish) gene within many existing Tieflings and exaggerated their fiendish traits.

For things like Halfings and other minor changes, just say 'it was always that way' (kinda worked for 3e), OR they could use the Plague again, as I did in some HB lore I wrote over on the WotC site some time ago: "After the devastation that brought Halruaa down, that once proud land was awash with plague-changed waters, glowing with the chaotic blue energies from the shattered magics of the sorcerer Kings. This water, carried by an immense tidal surge deep into low-lying Luiren, turned that once-beautiful country in a mass of bogs and dweomer-filled swamps. The surviving Halflings - stalwart as ever - moved to higher ground and rebuilt, but the strange energies trapped within the waters that inundated their land caused unusual side-effects, including accelerated growth amongst newborns, which increased for the next several generations."

Take your pick - I don't care if they give us a reason or not, but as long as they provide a plausible one, that should please the folks that insist on such things (between editions). The idea is, with a 'soft' reboot, you can sweep a lot under the table. I certainly hope the non-4e crowd doesn't insist on a 'pristine' OGB Realms for 5e, because that wouldn't work. Much of the new lore is retroactive (like the existence of Primordials) - you can't just get rid of it, you need to smooth it out and blend it in.

If we have a chance of getting lots and lots of new FR lore - set in 'past' eras - isn't it worth it to absorb a little bit of the new stuff? I don't care if the Abolethic Sovereignty exists or not (and canonically, must in 1e/2e/3e) - I can choose to ignore them, as I do now. If they don't make their appearance until after the spellplague, it doesn't effect most of us anyway.

We cannot sit here and argue over what each of us wants individually - I am sure most of you would hate my own version of the Realms. We need to move forward and blend it all together, in a way that will make 80% of the people 80% happy. That other 20% will either come-around, or they can continue to be grognards. You'll never make the 'die-hards' happy anyway. As for the 80% happy - I had been considering this the other day, and I think that is the 'sweet spot'. I was probably 95% happy with the OGB, and 80% happy with 2e, and maybe 70% happy with the 3e material (some was great, some not so much). This gives us an average of 80% likability for acceptance. When you start to fall below the 70% mark, people will start to consider weather to make a certain purchase or not. You can almost look at it like how they grade school children here in the U.S. - 65% is just barely passing, and definitely 'needs work'. You get a 90-100% acceptance rating on a product, you just hit one out of the park. Paizo doesn't even get 100% on anything -there is always at least one thing that folks will read and say "I would have done that differently".

But that's okay, and expected. Just keep the acceptable side of the equation high, and don't worry about the little things folks don't like about it. You start listening to them, and we get another 4e (full erasure and reboot). I can live with aberrations... I can even live with Shade hovering over our heads, so long as I get that old-time, old-school FR lore that we all know and love. I can just ignore what I don't like.

Oh, and please, PLEASE don't force novels down our throats about things most fans didn't care for. It doesn't matter how good it is, if it doesn't 'feel' like the Realms. In fact, just avoid RSE's altogether. If you usher-in 5e with another RSE, then I think you've doomed it from the start. Ed greenwood created the Realms, and he knew not to 'shake them' (to much). They are fragile, and break easily (as we have seen). Would you throw an earthquake at the louvre? You would only do that if you didn't care what you broke.



*That was a very quick mock-up done some time ago, just to illustrate my idea - I actually think it should just replace Var altogether.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 15 Jan 2012 22:46:42
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Grimn the Grim.
Acolyte

USA
3 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2012 :  20:39:00  Show Profile Send Grimn the Grim. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I vote no, there's just so many things that could go wrong with a total reboot.

The greatest darkness thrives in the shadow of the brightest light.
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe

Ireland
646 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2012 :  21:42:31  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Know one has yet given a reason as to why a reboot would not work when the present incarnation of the Realms was shunned by so many.

It wasn't the rules that "Realms" lovers had a problem with, it was what happened to the Realms and it's very very obvious.

How exactly would you make people like the current Realms when most people do not? An edition change isn't going to suddenly make people start liking the Realms.

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*.
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore

1338 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2012 :  21:55:30  Show Profile Send Mumadar Ibn Huzal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I personally did not like the idea of the Spellplague and the unfolding events after, and have not bothered to delve into the Realms beyond the mid 1370-ies. However, should WotC 'correct' certain items e.g. the Weave, Mystra/Mystril, it would be doable to bring back a Toril that feels more like Ed's idea of the Realms (though I would not want to discredit works by e.g. E Boyd and S Schend which took place after ToT and IMHO fit perfectly with the 'original' realms).

Even if physical damage has been done to the surface of the world, that does not hinder bringing back the feeling... actually, I would not be surprised to see that authors old and new would actually be able to draw on inspiration from the worst of the 4E FR period and to come up with good and very Realmsian retcons to make the world enjoyable again for old and new. The best would be if this could be done as 'rule light' as possible...
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Therise
Master of Realmslore

1265 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2012 :  23:07:43  Show Profile Send Therise a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

...Oh, and please, PLEASE don't force novels down our throats about things most fans didn't care for. It doesn't matter how good it is, if it doesn't 'feel' like the Realms...


I don't think you can have it both ways. Dragonborn that are really mammals (herp!), and excessive genasi and tieflings feel forced to me. I felt like pretty much everything about 4E was forced.

What do "most fans" really want? If "most fans" wanted to get rid of 4E Realms, would you still think it would be a problem to do so?


4E Realms was awful, but it's water under the Boareskyr Bridge. Let's make 5E Realms truly shine!
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6261 Posts

Posted - 16 Jan 2012 :  01:02:44  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
How is anything being forced down our throats?

If you don't like a book then don't buy it, don't read it, simply ignore it, or throw it away. Why force yourself to slavishly adhere to brand dogma when there are always alternatives?

[/Ayrik]
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Therise
Master of Realmslore

1265 Posts

Posted - 16 Jan 2012 :  01:08:45  Show Profile Send Therise a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

How is anything being forced down our throats?

If you don't like a book then don't buy it, don't read it, simply ignore it, or throw it away. Why force yourself to slavishly adhere to brand dogma when there are always alternatives?


I think it's more accurate for me to say it feels forced onto the setting, not forced on me. Of course I pick and choose what to buy, but when something feels forced I don't really want to buy it. In 1E-3E, some things felt like they stretched a little too far, but I was still happy to buy it.


4E Realms was awful, but it's water under the Boareskyr Bridge. Let's make 5E Realms truly shine!
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30203 Posts

Posted - 16 Jan 2012 :  01:29:11  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Oh, and please, PLEASE don't force novels down our throats about things most fans didn't care for. It doesn't matter how good it is, if it doesn't 'feel' like the Realms. In fact, just avoid RSE's altogether. If you usher-in 5e with another RSE, then I think you've doomed it from the start. Ed greenwood created the Realms, and he knew not to 'shake them' (to much). They are fragile, and break easily (as we have seen). Would you throw an earthquake at the louvre? You would only do that if you didn't care what you broke.


I will disagree with this, to an extent... Some RSEs can be well done, and can nicely move the setting forward. Or RSEs can feel like the only point was novel sales. In my opinion, we've seen both, in the Realms.

However, if there are going to be rules-mandated changes to the setting when the 5E Realms comes out, then I want an explanation for them. And that involves an RSE, so be it -- so long as it makes sense, and moves the setting forward. I still find it irksome that so many things changed with 3E, without an explanation.

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skychrome
Senior Scribe

713 Posts

Posted - 16 Jan 2012 :  02:22:44  Show Profile  Visit skychrome's Homepage Send skychrome a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My heart says YES in all aspects.

My mind says: no, please make a transfer that sound reasonable.

In the end, I say: please use all material from Ed not yet published. And the more we get back to 3e lore the better, in terms of rules; i am a pagan. Do whatever you want, but please remake all the lore from being irrelevant. Lore rocks! Please force me to buy all your products to keep up with the realms!

"You make an intriguing offer, one that is very tempting. It would seem that I have little alternative than to answer thusly: DISINTEGRATE!" Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick 625
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14020 Posts

Posted - 16 Jan 2012 :  03:04:28  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul

How exactly would you make people like the current Realms when most people do not? An edition change isn't going to suddenly make people start liking the Realms.
Its not the change itself, it was the manner in which it was presented ("Surprise! We got a new edition, and oh yeah, BTW, we got rid of just about everything that made the Realms The Realms... but the geography is mostly the same... mostly... except for the major changes...") . It was kinda like being punched in the stomach (out of nowhere), then being apologized to, and when they helped us back up, they said "You know you were asking for that, right?" In other words, the apology rang very hollow (and we didn't really get one anyway).

The lore wasn't THAT bad.

The rules weren't THAT bad.

The timejump was VERY bad (it was a complete disconnect for many fans).

So a reboot would work, to an earlier period - one of the existing game-eras, or possibly immediately following the plague (while all the 'fun stuff' is still going on). GK also suggested booting to an even earlier time, but I have no idea how that would go over (seriously, I can't even offer an opinion on that, because I'm not sure how I feel about that). They've already resolved the first mistake - the surprise slap-in-the-face. We see it coming this time, and can prepare for it. Both mentally and emotionally.

The rules are also on the right track - we get input. The same can be said for the realms (this thread is testimony).

That why I think it can work. This is nothing like 'the last time'.

quote:
Originally posted by Therise

I don't think you can have it both ways. Dragonborn that are really mammals (herp!), and excessive genasi and tieflings feel forced to me. I felt like pretty much everything about 4E was forced.
Yes, Dragonborn should lay eggs, and they can correct that now (thats not a major thing, so it can be retconned in a soft reboot). Genasi & Tieflings have always been around - just give us a little bit more lore about where these larger groups have been 'hiding' (I've covered this exact point in several threads already).

quote:
Originally posted by Therise

What do "most fans" really want? If "most fans" wanted to get rid of 4E Realms, would you still think it would be a problem to do so?
What most fans want is a Forgotten Realms that makes us feel 'at home'. 4e didn't do that for most of us. We don't have to have one or the other - compromises can be made. Not everything 4e was all that terrible - I wish people would stop shutting their minds to everything because they hate 4e so much. Find the good and keep it, Find the bad and fix it. Find the total crap and throw it away. We have a golden opportunity here (and I am talking about all editions when I say that).
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

How is anything being forced down our throats?

If you don't like a book then don't buy it, don't read it, simply ignore it, or throw it away. Why force yourself to slavishly adhere to brand dogma when there are always alternatives?
Because I am a fan of the setting, and even if I don't read particular books (which I don't), and ignore those things I don't like IMG (which I do), I still know those things are part of the canon of a setting I love. I don't know about the rest of you, but there are some novels I read and I feel like I just read "A Realms Novel", and then there are others that I read where there is a complete disconnect - the Twilight Giants trilogy for instance (and I purposely avoided 3e/4e titles, to prove a point). I read it, I enjoyed, but I didn't feel like it had any connection to the Realms at all.

Its not about quality, or editions - its about understanding the underlying elements that make the realms the Realms, and breathing life into them. Some people (apparently) "don't get it". I have read poorly written Realms fanfic/HB that I enjoyed immensely, and very well-written novels that just didn't 'do it for me'. It isn't even a matter of 'writing style' - You either 'get it', or you don't - its a very tenuous thing, and almost impossible to describe.

Thats what I mean by 'forced', but what Therise says is also forced of a different nature. When you meet a single Saurial, thats okay. Then 2 books later you find out there is a secret vale of them, thats also okay. When you are handed a world you thought you knew and these 'reptile things' are crawling all over it, thats an example of forced lore. It just didn't feel 'natural'; it wasn't the Dragonborn that were bad - once again, it was the presentation. Too much, all at once.
quote:
Originally posted by Therise

I think it's more accurate for me to say it feels forced onto the setting, not forced on me. Of course I pick and choose what to buy, but when something feels forced I don't really want to buy it. In 1E-3E, some things felt like they stretched a little too far, but I was still happy to buy it.
Have you read Rich baker's series? It feels like The Realms to me - I barely notice the 4e setting at all. A couple of the Waterdeep novels are also like that (although 'grittier' then I'm used to).
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I will disagree with this, to an extent... Some RSEs can be well done, and can nicely move the setting forward. Or RSEs can feel like the only point was novel sales. In my opinion, we've seen both, in the Realms.
I have never really liked any of them, but I tolerated some much better then others. At least give us repercussions - its down right silly that the day after an RSE, everything is back to normal (And the Fall of Zhentil keep wasn't even an RSE, and yet is one of the worst examples of this 'reset button' way of writing/designing). If you are going to change things in a big way, then continue that forward - don't just drop the whole thing after the last page is written.

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
[brHowever, if there are going to be rules-mandated changes to the setting when the 5E Realms comes out, then I want an explanation for them. And that involves an RSE, so be it -- so long as it makes sense, and moves the setting forward. I still find it irksome that so many things changed with 3E, without an explanation.
While I personally don't mind an edition change without an RSE (since when did they become mandatory?), I think the 'soft' reboot style for 5e may alleviate any need of that.

Unless they decide to do a time-traveling continuity reboot, in which case, THAT IS the RSE. However, I would be strongly against that, at this time. A year ago I probably would have been the poster-boy for the "get rid of it all" mentality when it came to 4e, but a lot of that was anger, and it has abated - I can now see much of 4e for what it is, without hating it for "replacing my beloved setting". A bitter pill, that, but one we should all swallow.

So if they do give us one more RSE for the reset, then okay, but make it really good, make sure we know the whole story (we still haven't gotten that for Mystra's death), make it make sense within the confines of previous canon, and most everyone will be okay with it.

Then don't destroy that re-earned trust by handing us another one ever-other-novel. The 'one-upmaship' (weather real or merely perceived) needs to stop. What next? A Gargantuan space-Hamster running around inside the great Wheel... yeah.. we'll call that the 'Habitrail cosmology'.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 16 Jan 2012 03:31:18
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe

USA
586 Posts

Posted - 16 Jan 2012 :  03:04:38  Show Profile  Visit Tyrant's Homepage Send Tyrant a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul

Know one has yet given a reason as to why a reboot would not work when the present incarnation of the Realms was shunned by so many.

It wasn't the rules that "Realms" lovers had a problem with, it was what happened to the Realms and it's very very obvious.

How exactly would you make people like the current Realms when most people do not? An edition change isn't going to suddenly make people start liking the Realms.


The big potential problem is that assuming "most" people don't like it is just an assumption. As is assuming anyone, much less a large number of people, would come back if it were "reset". I'm sure there are people that have no interest in ever trusting WotC again, and other who will see that WotC will once again demonstrate that if you are in the minority they will discard what you like to curry favor with others (ditching 4E FR). The other potential problem is people like Markustay who, despite wanting this on some level, see that it is just doing to the current fans what was done to older fans and they know that it's wrong, just like it was wrong the last time. Two wrongs don't make a right.

In other words, it comes down to weighing cost vs gain. If they reset, how many people do they lose? If 4E taught us anything it's that massive change will not sit well with some people and they will quit. Then, how many people do they gain? I believe a reasonable guess can be made to answer the first of those questions. However, I believe the second question is an unknown with too many unknowns funneling into it to really answer. For instance, what time period is the best to reset to? How many will or won't come back based on that? How many are gone for good and not even a gold plated Grey Box will bring them box? How many would come back and the first thing they didn't like leave again? What is the threshold for people like that?

All of that is before you consider the other problem. Does anyone really think they won't "update" or "improve" whatever era they reset to? What better way to cement teiflings, dragonborn, warforged, whatever into the setting than to have them there from the start in the reboot? Not to mention whatever other new ideas are the hotness in 5E. And there's nothing stopping them from taking the current cosmology and saying it's always been that way.

That is the ultimate problem with this idea. No one seems to be seriously considering the potentially disasterous way it could be handled and the numerous side effects it might have. For instance, I have read here more than once that novels bring in more than the RPG material. What will happen when the novel timeline "resets" and they erase the last couple of decades of novel material? How many of those folks are just going to shrug their shoulders and keep buying books? How many are going to call BS and walk away while cursing WotC name? I don't believe they need to tempt fate twice. They should'v taken a protectionary approach to their fanbase with the switch to 4E and they didn't. That is no reason why they shouldn't do it now. I honestly think if they reset the timeline it is a clear signal they learned nothing from the 4E episode.

Just ask yourself this, Did anyone directly ask for the Spellplague? Did anyone ask for a 100 year time jump and numerous deity deaths? Did anyone ask for a whole new chunk of planet to drop out of the sky? Did anyone ask for Halruaa, Neverwinter, Luskan, etc to get blown up? Did anyone ask for Thay to become an undead wasteland ruled by Szass Tam? I believe you will find the answer is no to those. This was all done to satisfy what they did ask for. Eliminate or sideline the Chosen, clean up the clutter lore, make it easy to jump in, etc. Notice how different the requests are from the result. Tell me how a reset will end up any better. You will ask for an end result and be surprised by the mind boggling choices of how they make it happen and what else gets changed in the process.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code

Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest
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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
2904 Posts

Posted - 16 Jan 2012 :  03:42:41  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would hazard a guess, that if WotC did reboot, people would b***h anyways...

My 2 coppers

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14020 Posts

Posted - 16 Jan 2012 :  03:48:57  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes, we always do, after every edition change. The internet just made it easier.

But the last was the first time we actually left, in droves. The first time another RPG company actually had more fans at a Gencon then TSR/WotC. Big difference in complaining down at the LGS... every weekend while playing D&D with your buds... and refusing to buy any new D&D products.

So go ahead and b***h and complain, because you know what? It means we still care. When we stop caring, then they really need to start worrying.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 16 Jan 2012 03:51:04
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Therise
Master of Realmslore

1265 Posts

Posted - 16 Jan 2012 :  03:58:06  Show Profile Send Therise a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Yes, Dragonborn should lay eggs, and they can correct that now (thats not a major thing, so it can be retconned in a soft reboot). Genasi & Tieflings have always been around - just give us a little bit more lore about where these larger groups have been 'hiding' (I've covered this exact point in several threads already).

Try convincing the fanboys that they should give up their male Dragonborn character's peen and telling them they all have cloacas now. I dare you. We'll see how they react to a "soft" reboot.

quote:
What most fans want is a Forgotten Realms that makes us feel 'at home'. 4e didn't do that for most of us. We don't have to have one or the other - compromises can be made.

You don't know what "most fans" want. Sorry, but you just don't. At best, you have a small sample of online folks, and quite frankly you're already rejecting what a portion of those say they want.

quote:
Its not about quality, or editions - its about understanding the underlying elements that make the realms the Realms, and breathing life into them. Some people (apparently) "don't get it". I have read poorly written Realms fanfic/HB that I enjoyed immensely, and very well-written novels that just didn't 'do it for me'. It isn't even a matter of 'writing style' - You either 'get it', or you don't - its a very tenuous thing, and almost impossible to describe.

It's not about quality? Really? Really?

Markus, not everyone shares your views. For most non-professionals, "quality" is just a reflection of whether or not they liked something. Most people don't go through an actual review of quality from a professional standpoint.

In the latter part, you are saying something true. It's about personal tastes. That's it, end of story.

quote:
Thats what I mean by 'forced', but what Therise says is also forced of a different nature. When you meet a single Saurial, thats okay. Then 2 books later you find out there is a secret vale of them, thats also okay. When you are handed a world you thought you knew and these 'reptile things' are crawling all over it, thats an example of forced lore. It just didn't feel 'natural'; it wasn't the Dragonborn that were bad - once again, it was the presentation. Too much, all at once.

Heh. There is an order of magnitude of difference (at least!) between a small group of kidnapped saurials from another world/plane/whatever and positing that AO created an entire duplicate planet, messing with the cosmology and origin story of the Realms, then crashing it into Toril and spreading Dragonborn around as a main PC race. The Saurials, by comparison, were in one trilogy; we never really saw them again, and they didn't interact with any cultures in a truly significant manner. One trilogy can be glossed over. An entirely new setting is in your face as long as you use it.

quote:
Have you read Rich baker's series? It feels like The Realms to me - I barely notice the 4e setting at all. A couple of the Waterdeep novels are also like that (although 'grittier' then I'm used to).

I read the 3E elvish stories (Farthest Gate, etc.) and loved those. They felt Realmsy. I tried to read Swordmage and couldn't get much past the first chapter. It didn't grab me, so I can't really say.

quote:
While I personally don't mind an edition change without an RSE (since when did they become mandatory?), I think the 'soft' reboot style for 5e may alleviate any need of that (unless they decide to do a time-traveling continuity reboot, in which case, THAT IS the RSE)

This "soft" vs. "hard" thing is only in your mind. *cough*

No, seriously though. What you might consider to be a simple change that wouldn't do anything but plant roses, others might consider a major change. You can be the best at determining what that level is for you, but don't count on being able to do it for others.

quote:
...I can now see much of 4e for what it is, without hating it for "replacing my beloved setting". A bitter pill, that, but one we should all swallow.

And you should have that power, to determine what is best for everyone? What people "should" do?

Markus, listen. I'm going to say it one more time, so try to let it through: in matters of taste, people are often WILDLY different. There is no "should" in matters of taste. I remember you vehemently defending people's rights to have and hold their own opinions of things, not one month ago. And I agree, for opinions that are matters of taste. But now you're going to tell people there is a right way, and that they should follow your vision because they just "should"? Come on.


4E Realms was awful, but it's water under the Boareskyr Bridge. Let's make 5E Realms truly shine!
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe

USA
586 Posts

Posted - 16 Jan 2012 :  04:11:14  Show Profile  Visit Tyrant's Homepage Send Tyrant a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Therise

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Yes, Dragonborn should lay eggs, and they can correct that now (thats not a major thing, so it can be retconned in a soft reboot). Genasi & Tieflings have always been around - just give us a little bit more lore about where these larger groups have been 'hiding' (I've covered this exact point in several threads already).

Try convincing the fanboys that they should give up their male Dragonborn character's peen and telling them they all have cloacas now. I dare you. We'll see how they react to a "soft" reboot.


This is purely a guess on my part, and maybe I am misreading your post with the wink showing something I am missing, but I believe the driving issue is the female dragonborn. If they aren't mammals, there isn't much reason for them to have breasts. On the other hand, if what you say is true (and again, I may be misreading it) then I would think every guy who read the House of Serpents trilogy would be lining up to play a Yuan Ti pureblood. Thanks to Lisa Smedman's attention to biological and mating detail we know that at least some of the male purebloods have two.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code

Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest
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Therise
Master of Realmslore

1265 Posts

Posted - 16 Jan 2012 :  04:18:05  Show Profile Send Therise a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant

This is purely a guess on my part, and maybe I am misreading your post with the wink showing something I am missing, but I believe the driving issue is the female dragonborn. If they aren't mammals, there isn't much reason for them to have breasts. On the other hand, if what you say is true (and again, I may be misreading it) then I would think every guy who read the House of Serpents trilogy would be lining up to play a Yuan Ti pureblood. Thanks to Lisa Smedman's attention to biological and mating detail we know that at least some of the male purebloods have two.


I'm reacting to Markus's suggestion that they "soft" reboot all of the Dragonborn to be reptiles instead of mammals. If you change the females, you must also change the males.

4E Realms was awful, but it's water under the Boareskyr Bridge. Let's make 5E Realms truly shine!
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14020 Posts

Posted - 16 Jan 2012 :  05:47:50  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Without a consensus, they have nothing to build off of.

I am not stating what I, personally, want to see, but rather, what I think would please the largest cross-section of fans. If you recall, I am a fan of a post-plague reboot, which is not what I am evangelizing ATM. I think an OGB (updated) soft reboot would please the largest demographic.

If people here aren't willing to compromise, then I guess we'll just have to leave it to the WotC guys to decide what we want.

And that didn't work the last time.

For the record, quality is only a very small portion of a product's appeal, in this day and age. Thats just how it is - ask Michael Bay. You give people what they want, and quality only plays a small part, IMHO. D&D fans, in-general, are slightly more discerning, but still fall prey to this marketing stratagem (hence, Drizzt on every cover).


"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
2904 Posts

Posted - 16 Jan 2012 :  05:59:23  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
See this scroll Markus

It might answer your questions, or leave you with more...

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
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Therise
Master of Realmslore

1265 Posts

Posted - 16 Jan 2012 :  06:47:11  Show Profile Send Therise a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Without a consensus, they have nothing to build off of.

But they're not going for consensus with the 5E rules, they're going for modularity. Why would they go for consensus with the Realms?

quote:
I am not stating what I, personally, want to see, but rather, what I think would please the largest cross-section of fans. If you recall, I am a fan of a post-plague reboot, which is not what I am evangelizing ATM. I think an OGB (updated) soft reboot would please the largest demographic.

If people here aren't willing to compromise, then I guess we'll just have to leave it to the WotC guys to decide what we want.

And that didn't work the last time.

For the record, quality is only a very small portion of a product's appeal, in this day and age. Thats just how it is - ask Michael Bay. You give people what they want, and quality only plays a small part, IMHO. D&D fans, in-general, are slightly more discerning, but still fall prey to this marketing stratagem (hence, Drizzt on every cover).


Modular approach for the rules, modular approach for each setting. Consensus and compromise aren't in their plan because it's not necessary. Think smorgasboard.


4E Realms was awful, but it's water under the Boareskyr Bridge. Let's make 5E Realms truly shine!
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