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Zireael
Master of Realmslore

Poland
1190 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2012 :  16:12:02  Show Profile  Visit Zireael's Homepage Send Zireael a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Is it not enough for WoTC to open up the timeline for developers to right material for the 1350's?


Are they really going to do that? Because I doubt that. It would require five times more work. Remember, there's the 1350's (OGB era), 1360's (AD&D era), 1370's (3e era) and 1485 (4e era), and as yet unknown Next D&D era...

SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!

http://zireael07.wordpress.com/
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe

USA
586 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2012 :  17:24:16  Show Profile  Visit Tyrant's Homepage Send Tyrant a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zireael

quote:
Is it not enough for WoTC to open up the timeline for developers to right material for the 1350's?


Are they really going to do that? Because I doubt that. It would require five times more work. Remember, there's the 1350's (OGB era), 1360's (AD&D era), 1370's (3e era) and 1485 (4e era), and as yet unknown Next D&D era...


I doubt it would take 5 times as much work, honestly. If we are talking setting and lore material and not game material (as in, having to make a 1E book and a 2E book, and so on using those rules), then it wouldn't need to seriously increase the work. From the 1350s to the 1380s there are some places that don't change a whole lot and we already have a written record of a lot of the changes that did happen. Instead of something like a Cormyr book for each of those periods I see it more likely to be a Cormyr: past and present type set up where the history of Cormyr is covered with sections detailing the major moments in history (which likely line up with the different eras) and explaining what you need to know to use any particular section of it's history as your setting. For novels, they could be set at any point in time. There it would likely be a case of part of the roughly 12 a year we are getting now would be dedicated to the past. In a perfect world they would just increase the number of novels coming out, but I think that will happen only if sales increase. Though I could be wrong and maybe having more than the one era to cover will allow them to justify more novels.


Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code

Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe

USA
470 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2012 :  18:13:42  Show Profile  Visit Old Man Harpell's Homepage Send Old Man Harpell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Like Nicolai, I voted Yes, but my expectations are firmly grounded in No. Unless Sire Greenwood returns to give us his vision of How The Realms Were Won, it would be too problematic, anyways.

I am going to assume, for my sanity's sake, that we are referring only to 4th Edition Forgotten Realms, and not the 4th Edition D&D system mechanics. Discussing the latter in this context seems to me to be irrelevant.

quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
I think it would be more productive for everyone to work together to make sure that the Realms going forward (spellplague and all) best captures the spirit of the OGB and the original novels they put out. Being fractured as a community is only going to confuse WoTC even more and make it harder for them to put out the best product possible.



This is what I have been saying by 'fix'. Marshall Plan-fix. We won't get a reboot (face it - we just won't), so we need a huge salvage operation, and then roll up our sleeves and get to work. Or rather, Wizbro does - anything that can be cleaned up, cleared away, graded over, replanted, and nurtured, needs to be. Wizbro made such an awful mess, it's on them to clean it up. But we can help. We, as lovers of the Realms and all the rich, wonderful lore and history that went with it before 2008, those things that defined the Forgotten Realms, pretty much have an obligation to do exactly that.

What exactly are those things? That'll differ from person to person, certainly. I know that while I am willing to grit my teeth and accept what happened in the Old Empires (plus I do rather like High Imaskar), others may absolutely despise it. What happened to Halruaa and Lantan made me snarl in fury when I first read it - but others may not care a whit about those places. It all depends on who you ask and what the Realms means to them.

That's the trade-off for going forward, in my opinion. We want the Realms as we remember it. And even going forward, that's possible, believe it or not. Sans Ed Greenwood, it's the best outcome we can realistically expect.
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3372 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2012 :  18:25:33  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I totally agree with OMH about going forward. I guess the best part is that WotC is more focued on hearing what we, the fanbase, want to see and hear with the next iteration of D&D. This means more requests, more submissions of Fan-base material, and more vocal support of what they're doing. I'm looking to write up an article for DDi that depicts that Lantan survived the Spellplague by a combination of magi-technology that kept the waters away from the small island yet found it submerged deep below the surface. So I'm looking for any older lore on the island, the people, the ruling classes, the deities (besides Gond) that might have been represented, and how technologically along they were. Then I'll delve into the Bio-Shock video game to pull elements from there as well, like electricity-based utilies and weapons and an influx of ideas from underwater civilizations. I like the idea of many people using Shark-skin as armor or wetsuits, drawing forth the energy of electric eels, or using the substances from Kelp, sea-weed, algie, coral, etc. into everyday aspects of their life.

Not sure when it'll be completed or how long it'll be (or even if they'd accept it) but at least I can say that I attempted to influence the Realms for the better. Lantan may be considerd gone by many people but the island is alive and well and functions as a sort of FR-Atlantis.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."

Edited by - Diffan on 14 Jan 2012 18:28:22
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Faraer
Great Reader

3295 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2012 :  18:26:12  Show Profile  Visit Faraer's Homepage Send Faraer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Old Man, based on the slight information this recent talk is based on -- 'The Forgotten Realms has a rich history and we will support all of it. It is for the gamers to decide which time they would enjoy playing in' -- I think you're being unduly pessimistic assuming they'll move the timeline forward yet again, distancing it even further from the people and events of the 14th-century Realms.
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Quale
Master of Realmslore

1755 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2012 :  18:35:36  Show Profile Send Quale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Any year is fine imo, I don't care for canon. What matters is that they publish Realms material in quantity similar to Golarion's. If it's going to be just one book like in 4e, or reprinted old lore, then I'm not interested.

Also it depends on who's going to work on the new Realms, if it's going to be the same designers again, I don't expect anything good. Same old crap, aberrations, drow, Elminster, elves, gods, liches, dragons etc.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13601 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2012 :  18:38:10  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin

So essentially those who want a reboot are those who don't seem to read the novels. So there is no attachment to the story line that has developed over the past 30 years. Does this sound about right? I mean, I will say this until I am blue in the face. A DM should not need WoTC's blessing to create a campaign straight out of the OGB. It is still there and there is a ton of lore that exists to help you out. Why do you need a full reboot? Is it not enough for WoTC to open up the timeline for developers to right material for the 1350's?
I read the novels - I try to read all of them. I've twice 'sworn off' certain novels out of anger, and then re-thought my decision (in regards to 4e-era books, and the RotA series). Just because I am not fond of something doesn't mean I should ignore it. As a RW history buff, I don't ignore parts of RW history I don't care for - that would be ludicrous. Why should I then do that in a fantasy setting I love so much?

I also game - have been since the mid-70's, and only stopped just prior to 4e's release (NOT because of 4e, but because of a divorce and relocation). Not sure if circumstances had been different, I might have continued to play using the new rules (I have no way of knowing). I do know I wouldn't have used the 4e setting (but I would have borrowed from it, and perhaps even fast-forwarded my campaign to 1386, because I find that precise year the most liberating, canon-wise).

I would love a complete reboot, because I think the original product - before a lot of early badness got slapped onto it (redundancy, derivativeness, RW names, the wrongful idea people only worship one god, Netheril's F*ed up history and ridiculous place names, Lichlings, Gods acting like idiots, etc) - was truly excellent; a monument to Ed's genius.

HOWEVER, I do not believe this would be best for the game and most fans. The setting should be moving forward, not backward. Its just that 1479 DR was really jumping the shark. The proper way to correct THAT, and get things back on course, would be to move the setting forward from the year after the Spellplague, because that would have been a normal amount of time between editions. I personaly believe most folks would have eventualy dealt with everything else - the changes, the new rules, etc - the way they always have; kicking and screaming... but they would have come around. just look through all the old threads on this site and others when editions changed before. Of course people will always complain - thats what we do (and what the internet is for... right after porn )

But we would have come around, because we have before. There is a big difference between me not liking the Shades and not ever using them IMG, and me refusing to buy 4e products. That complete 'disconnect' is what must be mended. I feel a total reboot is just a patch-job, at best, and will disenfranchise more folks then it will bring back, IMHO.

Which is hard for me to say, because I would love just such a thing.

EDIT: And I almost forgot - even though I read most of the novels and am a stickler for continuity (in those and source), my own realms were VERY homebrew - I moved around entire countries! (which is what got me into mapping).

So YES, there are those of us who care about the continuity/canon, and still don't worry about it when we game. Maybe I am in the rare minority, but I don't understand why anyone would connect the two - No-one runs a canon game (not even Ed Greenwood anymore). The second your players start interacting with anything, it is no longer technically canon, so why nitpick?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 14 Jan 2012 18:53:07
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Therise
Master of Realmslore

1265 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2012 :  18:48:42  Show Profile Send Therise a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

...I would love a complete reboot, because I think the original product...

OHHHH SNAP!

Praise Lathander, he has seen the Light! Welcome back to the Church, brother Markus!

We'll get the rest of that "what's best for (people I've never met)" smacked out of you in no time.

*starts singing a hymn, holding hands up to the sun*


4E Realms was awful, but it's water under the Boareskyr Bridge. Let's make 5E Realms truly shine!
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe

USA
470 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2012 :  18:59:20  Show Profile  Visit Old Man Harpell's Homepage Send Old Man Harpell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Not sure when it'll be completed or how long it'll be (or even if they'd accept it) but at least I can say that I attempted to influence the Realms for the better. Lantan may be considerd gone by many people but the island is alive and well and functions as a sort of FR-Atlantis.



THIS is the sort of thing I'm talking about. THIS is what we need to see more of (a LOT more of). THIS is one of the steps on the roadway to fixing what was broken. They'd already taken the baby steps of cleaning up the Sword Coast (where very little had changed, really) - now comes the rest. Articles like Diffan's would be a tremendous shot in the arm that the Realms desperately needs.

quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Old Man, based on the slight information this recent talk is based on -- 'The Forgotten Realms has a rich history and we will support all of it. It is for the gamers to decide which time they would enjoy playing in' -- I think you're being unduly pessimistic assuming they'll move the timeline forward yet again, distancing it even further from the people and events of the 14th-century Realms.


I won't deny being pessimistic. I think it's justified, to be frank about it. I would say 'realistic', though.
*The optimist says the glass is half-full.
*The pessimist says the glass is half-empty.
*The realist says someone couldn't make it to the porcelain stall in time.

Diffan's post gives us but one way things can be fixed. In fact, it's one of the better ways. Plus, I am very, very leery about a press release that says 'we will support all of it'. Well, what exactly constitutes 'all of it'? That has been left very, very undefined.

And one thing that does need a reboot, is the map. The one that came with 4th Edition, regardless of what anyone thinks about anything else in the book, was utter -CENSORED-.

And the entire planet needs to be mapped. All of it. At the very least, outlines of the continents. Where things are. Where Returned Abeir sits in relation to Anchorome, for example, and how much of Maztica is left. Is Returned Abeir sitting right where, say, Panama would be in our world, and maybe some of Maztica roughly equivalent to the latitudes of northern Mexico and the Yucatan still exist? We should have these answers, maybe with a module detailing any Maztican civilization that may have happened to survive, along with some details of Anchorome and the quasi-Iroquois civilization that we were led to believe existed there, if only from a faded image on a previous edition's map.

- OMH
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13601 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2012 :  19:09:38  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Lets get one thing straight, missy ()

The people who clamored "Change the Realms so that we like it, and screw all the fans of the hard-to-read canon material" are no friends of mine, and I really don't think they were ever friends of 'The Realms' (not now, not ever). They just didn't like something, wanted it changed (rather then go look for something they liked better, as a normal person would), and didn't care who's bubble they were bursting.

And YES, those are the people I am currently defending. I don't have to like someone to defend their opinions, just as I won't defend the opinions of someone I like, if I feel they are misguided (not aimed at you, so please don't take offense - it is just a general statement).

If they do do a reboot, at the very least, they should NOT do a "it was all just a dream' type of scenario, because that will still be pissing-off everyone who is a fan of everything that came after the 'official' 5e setting date. For instance, resetting it to the OGB might anger people who liked the ToT (there are a few), and resetting to just after the ToT (2e) would anger all the folks who loved the 3e lore (most of it, anyway). Rebooting to a 'clean slate' would be entirely the wrong way to go, because it actually destroys so much more then 4e ever did.

UNLESS.. they somehow manage to reboot, keep most of the forward-going canon (a neat trick, that), and provide support for multiple-era gaming... I'm just not seeing it. Not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying that would be one helluva 'hat trick'. I say 'most', because even in a 'lets keep the setting canon intact' kind of reboot (not changing the continuity), there are some things that must be ditched (there was Tuigan Warlord, for instance, that was somehow making trouble down around Erkazar in some module - it made no sense). Simply re-write that so the incident was actually caused by a tribe of Horse Barbarians (The Arnaden Lions), who happen to be very similar and also LOCAL to the event. There was also another instance where a tribe was created for a short story in Vassa - just changed that to an already-existing canon one (or make it a splinter-group). Lots of rough edges - its like a bad makeup job. Smooth things better, and make the Realms pretty again.

In other words, blend the rough edges better. This is something I think Ed, Krash, Brian, Steven, Shemmy, Gray (and others here) can do, either officially, or as go-to consultants. Whoever gets that job - blending the old lore together better - should also go on to become the new FR traffic cop. No-one knows everything, but there are some pretty smart folks here that would be willing to help (maybe create a new private forum, for ideas to be hashed-out and continuity problems solved, like Marvel's 'No prize')

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 15 Jan 2012 00:20:58
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Caolin
Senior Scribe

654 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2012 :  19:26:29  Show Profile Send Caolin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by Caolin

So essentially those who want a reboot are those who don't seem to read the novels. So there is no attachment to the story line that has developed over the past 30 years. Does this sound about right? I mean, I will say this until I am blue in the face. A DM should not need WoTC's blessing to create a campaign straight out of the OGB. It is still there and there is a ton of lore that exists to help you out. Why do you need a full reboot? Is it not enough for WoTC to open up the timeline for developers to right material for the 1350's?
I read the novels - I try to read all of them. I've twice 'sworn off' certain novels out of anger, and then re-thought my decision (in regards to 4e-era books, and the RotA series). Just because I am not fond of something doesn't mean I should ignore it. As a RW history buff, I don't ignore parts of RW history I don't care for - that would be ludicrous. Why should I then do that in a fantasy setting I love so much?

I also game - have been since the mid-70's, and only stopped just prior to 4e's release (NOT because of 4e, but because of a divorce and relocation). Not sure if circumstances had been different, I might have continued to play using the new rules (I have no way of knowing). I do know I wouldn't have used the 4e setting (but I would have borrowed from it, and perhaps even fast-forwarded my campaign to 1386, because I find that precise year the most liberating, canon-wise).

I would love a complete reboot, because I think the original product - before a lot of early badness got slapped onto it (redundancy, derivativeness, RW names, the wrongful idea people only worship one god, Netheril's F*ed up history and ridiculous place names, Lichlings, Gods acting like idiots, etc) - was truly excellent; a monument to Ed's genius.

HOWEVER, I do not believe this would be best for the game and most fans. The setting should be moving forward, not backward. Its just that 1479 DR was really jumping the shark. The proper way to correct THAT, and get things back on course, would be to move the setting forward from the year after the Spellplague, because that would have been a normal amount of time between editions. I personaly believe most folks would have eventualy dealt with everything else - the changes, the new rules, etc - the way they always have; kicking and screaming... but they would have come around. just look through all the old threads on this site and others when editions changed before. Of course people will always complain - thats what we do (and what the internet is for... right after porn )

But we would have come around, because we have before. There is a big difference between me not liking the Shades and not ever using them IMG, and me refusing to buy 4e products. That complete 'disconnect' is what must be mended. I feel a total reboot is just a patch-job, at best, and will disenfranchise more folks then it will bring back, IMHO.

Which is hard for me to say, because I would love just such a thing.

EDIT: And I almost forgot - even though I read most of the novels and am a stickler for continuity (in those and source), my own realms were VERY homebrew - I moved around entire countries! (which is what got me into mapping).

So YES, there are those of us who care about the continuity/canon, and still don't worry about it when we game. Maybe I am in the rare minority, but I don't understand why anyone would connect the two - No-one runs a canon game (not even Ed Greenwood anymore). The second your players start interacting with anything, it is no longer technically canon, so why nitpick?



If I'm being honest, there is a big part of me that wants to go back to 1381 and just move on from there. I miss some of the old characters of the 1300's and it's a little much to see the authors try to find ways to bring them back 100 years later.

But, and it's a big but, there is an even bigger part of me that just wants to move forward with the good and the bad. I'm sorry if I start sounding too philosophical, but there is something natural about rolling along with all the nicks and scrapes and striving to make it better. As long as something was learned in the process and the end result is better than before, then all the bad that came before suddenly becomes just a step in the evolution of the Realms. I guess to me rebooting is kind of like cheating. It will never feel right because we can't remove from our memories what was thrown away.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13601 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2012 :  19:54:20  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In that, we are in agreement.

We can't erase incidents in our own pasts, as much as we'd like to, so it does make sense to use everything and move forward (not time-wise - I am talking philosophically ATM). I think moving the (4e) timeline forward at this point would just be the final nail in the coffin.

Start fresh, but use the canon and fix it as they go along (not change it - in most cases it only needs some tweaking to get back on-track). That means re-writing the bulk of old material, but re-writing should be a lot easier then starting from scratch.

I do like the idea of leaving 4e as the 'world that could happen', which wouldn't necessarily discard it... just put it on a shelf where it won't hurt anybody.

That would give the designers (in the future) the choice of either 'correcting' the future of the Realms, or moving forward with it as presented; the beauty of that will be that they won't have to make that decision at the out-set. They will be able to feel-out the fanbase for quite awhile first, and know what sort of climate any changes will weather.

Consider it a military operation - move along slowly, and keep your heads down. If someone takes a shot at you, you stop, and re-access. Theres no need to leap blindly forward (especially a century!!!) By taking baby-steps, the designers will be able to better judge the reception new or differing lore receives, incrementally.

So by 'total reboot', I mean an erasure of everything that comes after the OGB (or whatever year they set 5e at), and THAT is what I would be against. A 'soft' reboot is more in-order, which just means a re-release of older lore, within the new rules-structure, with only minor continuity changes (just details). It would not invalidate anything, except where minor corrections are made.

If they could accomplish that, then I wouldn't mind buying all those products again, in a newer, shinier format (who needs yellow pages, anyway?). But then again, I am in a rather unique situation ATM.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 15 Jan 2012 02:07:50
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe

Ireland
646 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2012 :  23:24:39  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan



I don't want to see anyone's work invalidated just because people don't like certain aspects of the Realms that have been there for over 10 years. IMO, a reboot isn't necessary in the least but I do wish they still produced novels set in the pre-spellplague times and finish out many of our beloved heroes and villians stories.



Who's work are you talking about specifically? What about all the work that was done that was destroyed by the Spellplague? What about all the work that was done into making 4th edition? To make an omelet, you have to break some eggs.

Stories in the Realms have always taken twists and turns.

What happens in a novel should not cause the Realms to be held back from being made into something better. There is such a thing as screwing up and needing to go back and fix the damage.

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*.
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3372 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2012 :  01:40:39  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul



Who's work are you talking about specifically? What about all the work that was done that was destroyed by the Spellplague? What about all the work that was done into making 4th edition? To make an omelet, you have to break some eggs.


Seriously....?

Ed Greenwood: novels and Eye on the Realms articles for the last 3 1/2 years
Erik Scott de Bie: novels and gaming supplements (most notably, the Neverwinter Campaign Guide)
Matt and Brian James: Various of Realms articles and Grand History of the Realms
Brian Cortijo: FR articles
Richard Lee Byers: Novels
Tim Pratt: Novel
R.A. Salvatore: Novels and lots of great lore on Luskan, the North, and info about Kingdom of Many Arrows.
Rosemary Jones: Novels
Paul S. Kemp: Novels
Rich Baker: Novels and a host of other stuff....

and that's what I gathered in 5 minuts of looking. I think most of these people would be just a bit miffed if they're hard work and interesting novels were just "shelved" or rendered "alternative timelined" just because people don't like the Spellplague



What happens in a novel should not cause the Realms to be held back from being made into something better. There is such a thing as screwing up and needing to go back and fix the damage.
[/quote]

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13601 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2012 :  02:14:55  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A professional person working in any industry should understand that occasionally things they have worked on are 'cancelled', and companies go in another direction.

Grownups do not stamp their feet, hold their breath, and say "NO!" until their boss sees it their way. They accept the way things are and move on. Do you think the guys at Nasa (after Obama practically cancelled the entire Space Program) went on websites and bemoaned all their lost work - some of which they had been in the process of engineering for over thirty years?

Its just a silly game - they can get over it, or find something less stressful to do. Trashing an unsuccessful (from a corporate standpoint) line of products is just business-as-usual. They seem to have no problem doing precisely this when they thought 1e/2e/3e was holding them back.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6220 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2012 :  02:18:57  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I really doubt WotC would simply throw away all the collective Realmslore they've produced since 1356DR, or since any other arbitrary date set long before their "current" Realms timeline. It would be an admission of failure, an acknowledgement that they've "wasted" all those intervening years (in the Realms and in RL), and it would be an insult to every author and designer who contributed to the Realms from the cutoff point onwards.

Even the most ancient grognards stuck in AD&D 1E who loathe and despise 4E most vehemently must recognize that when their particular grievances are put aside there's still literally thousands of pages of fantastic, original, and quality Realmslore which are "worth keeping around". How can someone demand, for example, that the Spellplague be abolished while accepting the Shadovar, or ask for the Time of Troubles to be deleted while insisting on rewriting the Zulkirs-in-exile?

I don't personally feel this is justified, regardless of any feelings I might have about "newer" lore. I also think it's patently hypocritical. It's basically equivalent to approaching every FR author and saying something like "hey Ed, we're setting you right back to the beginning ... y'know, where you wrote your last good Realmslore ... all those books you've written since 1987 were garbage and will be discontinued".

Eat lots of garlic - it keeps the elves and vampires away.
Don't stick your sword into dragons, you just don't know where they've been.
Avoid stepping on halflings. They stick to your boots, will smell awful, and are impossible to scrape off.
Ah, of course. Never play leapfrog with a unicorn.
[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 15 Jan 2012 02:23:37
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3372 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2012 :  02:37:35  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

A professional person working in any industry should understand that occasionally things they have worked on are 'cancelled', and companies go in another direction.

Grownups do not stamp their feet, hold their breath, and say "NO!" until their boss sees it their way. They accept the way things are and move on. Do you think the guys at Nasa (after Obama practically cancelled the entire Space Program) went on websites and bemoaned all their lost work - some of which they had been in the process of engineering for over thirty years?


Funny you should mention that, because I see a lot of it in many posts about ant-spellplague and 4E realms products. I guess it can swing both ways there. But really, I don't care anymore. I'd like to see them go forward and will do my part to see that happen, but if they don't and do some sort of moronic retro, undo-everything ploy then I'm out. I don't need to go back 150+ years juset for the sake of a few people who complain alot. The Realms are what I make it, have been for years and that probably won't stop me aside from buying more re-hashed materials I can probably get online (download if need-be).

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay


Its just a silly game - they can get over it, or find something less stressful to do. Trashing an unsuccessful (from a corporate standpoint) line of products is just business-as-usual. They seem to have no problem doing precisely this when they thought 1e/2e/3e was holding them back.



Yea, they'll do whatever they feel is best and really....whatever. Trash the Time of Trouble, Reboot to 1325 DR, make Elminsters a cleric/rogue/fighter/wizard/archmage/avenger/cowboy/renegade/god 89 for all I have a F*** about. It just doesn't seem like it's worth it to me anymore to complain and attempt to build bridges without having large amount of collateral. So F*** it.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."

Edited by - Diffan on 15 Jan 2012 02:38:03
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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
2890 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2012 :  02:57:17  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tasker Daze

quote:
Originally posted by Diffan


I don't want to see anyone's work invalidated just because people don't like certain aspects of the Realms that have been there for over 10 years.



Like Ao?

The designers of 4E already invalidated the owrk of others.


The 3E Realms invalidated the work of others. Manshoon Wars. Or at least did nothing with it. Thats what happens when Editions change...

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep

Edited by - Brimstone on 15 Jan 2012 03:08:32
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6220 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2012 :  03:03:07  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Diffan

... I see a lot of [rants and tantrums] in many posts about ant-spellplague and 4E realms products. I guess it can swing both ways there. But really, I don't care anymore. I'd like to see them go forward and will do my part to see that happen, but if they don't and do some sort of moronic retro, undo-everything ploy then I'm out. I don't need to go back 150+ years juset for the sake of a few people who complain alot ... they'll do whatever they feel is best and really....whatever. Trash the Time of Trouble, Reboot to 1325 DR, make Elminsters a cleric/rogue/fighter/wizard/archmage/avenger/cowboy/renegade/god 89 ...
Of course Wizbro will do whatever they feel is best (in terms of sustaining brand revenues), but I have not yet seen any statements by Wizbro which confirm or commit to anything at all beyond the fact that they're developing "5E" and are actively probing their fans and potential fans (at Candlekeep and elsewhere) for feedback.

You'll note that none of the recent Candlekeep threads discussing 5E were initiated by Wizbro people, and the fact is that they have been largely silent observers carefully confirming/denying nothing significant while these scrolls circle through endless 4E/Spellplague bashing arguments*.

Many (I daresay most) of the scribes arguing in these scrolls are racing to express their thoughts and opinions without even bothering to read much of what has been said before; simply arguing against whatever was said most recently seems sufficient. Endless repetition, confrontation, and escalating hostility are inevitable. You shouldn't take offense at this stuff, Diffan, because the anti-4E hostility will blindly (and in many instances, ignorantly) lash out regardless whether you present yourself as a convenient target.

Nonetheless, I believe that the Wizbro people are paying careful attention (or at least they will be, after the furor loses momentum), and they will analyze the contents of these scrolls in some detail to extract the sort of feedback they need. The contents of insightful passages will be noted and summarized while all the "+1 incoherent rage" passages will simply be tallied up as little more than a statistical reference. I think your pro-4E viewpoint is a welcome rarity which will receive proper consideration in influencing the opinions that really matter. The way I see it, you're the one "winning" the arguments.

[Edit]
* Except for ESdB, who is technically a freelancer and not a real Wizbro employee anyhow. He has withdrawn from a few of these scrolls after issuing his own rants to condemn the discussions themselves for being unproductive and futile.

Eat lots of garlic - it keeps the elves and vampires away.
Don't stick your sword into dragons, you just don't know where they've been.
Avoid stepping on halflings. They stick to your boots, will smell awful, and are impossible to scrape off.
Ah, of course. Never play leapfrog with a unicorn.
[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 15 Jan 2012 03:15:49
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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
2890 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2012 :  03:13:50  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
They could let the setting sit for about 10 years, and then reboot. Nah, Elminster and Drizzt wont let them...

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe

USA
422 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2012 :  04:26:22  Show Profile Send Kris the Grey a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Quite a bit of meaningful conversation here. Please take a peek (and drop an opinion or two) at my discussion about how to best collect, sift, condense, and communicate the key points to the powers that be.

It's over at 'A call to productive action on the 5E Realms'.

Thanks

Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30015 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2012 :  05:48:40  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

You'll note that none of the recent Candlekeep threads discussing 5E were initiated by Wizbro people, and the fact is that they have been largely silent observers carefully confirming/denying nothing significant while these scrolls circle through endless 4E/Spellplague bashing arguments*.


For the record, I don't know that we've ever had any scribes who were known to be active WotC employees, here, with the exception of Rich Baker. To me, this fact makes the lack of discussions initiated by WotC staffers entirely irrelevant.

Besides, with the anonymity of the internet, any of us could be WotC staffers, either here on their own time and initiative, or observing the commentary on the company dime.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13601 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2012 :  06:10:16  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Diffan - if you've been following my posts the past few days, you'll note that what I suggested there is not at all what I want. I was just pointing out that if thats what they feel is the best path to take, then they will do so and no amount of "but our work was great!" from the 4e designers will change that.

I never said I wanted them to forget about 4e - for better or worse, I must consider it canon, because right now, it is.

I will go with the consensus, no matter what it is, but I really don't think pushing 5e even further out from the original setting is going to 'build bridges'. You only need to build bridges when you move forward... when you stay put, no-one needs a bridge.

If they re-release everything, as I suggested in the other thread, backwards-engineering every single product so that fluff flows smoothly with no glitches (a 'soft reboot'), then the 4e Realms should be included in that. If they also separate the lore from the fluff completely, in separate books, then everyone is a winner. Use the rules you want during the time period you want - Your Realms will be no less canon then mine.

Or is that asking too much? Is part of the edition war simply not wanting to see the other side happy? Because if it is, then thats a very sad state of affairs. I'd love to see a Realms where everyone gets along and is enjoying what THEY like. I've never begrudged the 4e players their Realms, so why should they find a reprinting of the OGB so offensive? Hell, TSR/WotC has been dusting-off and re-selling past edition adventure modules for years, and even a few sourcebooks, so what would be the difference?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 15 Jan 2012 06:13:01
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6220 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2012 :  06:21:08  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The active Candlekeep scribes whom I consider affiliated with WotC are Matt and Brian James, Steven Schend, James Lowder, and of course Ed (via proxy). Erik, Elaine, PSK, RLB, and many others are more loosely affiliated. I consider them all privy to "inside" proprietary NDA secrets, though of course my list is far from complete or accurate and WotC employees have recently been coming and going a bit faster than I can follow.

My above statements were referring largely to these individuals. Misunderstandings or assumptions entirely being my own. I agree that WotC would not likely wish to advertise their activities - especially given the general hostility they often receive in forums such as these - and if their employees are monitoring Candlekeep at all it would likely be through anonymous guest accounts and a search engine. At least that's what I would do in their position.

My point is that I have not read any conclusive statements made within Candlekeep about 5E from any of these individuals ... aside from several of them expressing a willingness to maintain informal and unofficial dialog with Candlekeep's scribes with the goal of finding out what we want them to give us. In fact, most of them have stated that they are unable to tell us anything conclusive at this time, I happen to believe them, and I can respect the restrictions imposed upon them by their profession.

Eat lots of garlic - it keeps the elves and vampires away.
Don't stick your sword into dragons, you just don't know where they've been.
Avoid stepping on halflings. They stick to your boots, will smell awful, and are impossible to scrape off.
Ah, of course. Never play leapfrog with a unicorn.
[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 15 Jan 2012 06:25:56
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Gambit
Learned Scribe

110 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2012 :  07:36:37  Show Profile Send Gambit a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wooley, love the timeline suggestion, right after C&D is pretty much the perfect point in the timeline, IMO. Failing that I would like to see a Star Trek style reboot. Failing that...I just want the plethora of awesome personalities from the second half of the 1300's to not be dead...and thats the thing, even if they "smooth" things over and downplay the spellplague, if the official timeline remains set in 1480, in official canon these characters are dead.
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