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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14020 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2012 :  21:02:16  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My point (above) was that there are two camps right now - 4e players, and those willing to compromise (a bit), and the folks who absolutely refuse to buy anything that is still attached to 4e lore.

I think that's why they are releasing the original, unabridged (mostly) Ed's Home Realms. They simply split the dividing line somewhere we didn't expect, and its an elegant solution - I can't see anyone not wanting a product from one line or the other (and most people will buy BOTH, IMHO).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 29 Jan 2012 21:04:15
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Sylrae
Learned Scribe

Canada
306 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2012 :  21:31:59  Show Profile Send Sylrae a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmm. Well, I'm in the "wont buy 4e realms" camp. I'm not interested in the post spellplague realms; as they blew up many of the things I liked about the realms (I mean places, mostly), and made a massive number of retcons I have no interest in using.

So:

I have a hard time justifying the purchase of a book, which I feel I would have to rewrite to get much use of. If I'm writing it myself, why pay money for it.

As for "Why not buy Ed's Realms"?
I'll check it out, for sure. Id have to look at it to see if I want it.

Mostly I want setting books in the same line as the later AD&D ones. The 3e ones were decent, but a bit too crunch heavy - I would like to see some more Arcane Age stuff.

Its possible that they will renew my interest in "D&D" again with 5e, and I wont spend all my gaming money on Pathfinder and Unisystem and Classic World of Darkness titles.

Its possible that they will make the realms a setting I will use again - though that will require changes that make all of my AD&D and 3e realms books useful again.

Its possible they may succeed on one, and completely drop the ball on the other - at least in terms of where my own money is going. Once again I will mention: If they had not cancelled all of their pdf sales, I'd be buying pdfs of all the books I wanted that I never had the chance to buy, so they'd still be getting my money despite not releasing any new product I have the slightest interest in.

Worst case scenario, I'll collect all the out of print books I don't have, and compile my own (system neutral) campaign setting from them for my home games. Which, you know, I'll do if necessary. But I'd prefer if they resumed releasing materials I want to buy for FR.


Sylrae's Forgotten Realms Fan-Lore Index, with public commenting access to make for easier improvement (WIP)
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe

USA
830 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2012 :  22:43:20  Show Profile Send Dark Wizard a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk


I think you're absolutely correct; it's the flawless delivery part that concerns me. I don't know if that's achievable without making Ed the FR Creative Director... not that I don't think that would be a good move, but I don't think Ed wants the formal title, even after the events of 4E. I could be wrong, mind you.



I don't think 'flawless' execution must have Ed as creative director. Having him involved is a plus of course, but even Ed has said certain authors and designers 'get' the Realms like he does, their thinking is in line with how Ed sees everything or close enough.

There is a huge difference between the approach of a creative team closely aligned to the setting’s tone with some personal touches (gives the setting more flavor) and a team that puts their new vision of the setting before all else and offers no reconciliation across the ensuing gap. The former builds from the existing foundation, the latter essentially (but not technically) re-imagines the setting.

I stated the execution part strongly because WotC shouldn't aim for "good enough" with their settings. Rules and similar material can be repaired with errata or at worst eventually faces obsolescence with the next edition. With a setting's official material, repairs are harder to implement. Thus the use of ret-cons or RSEs or nuke the setting.

I feel 4E Realms was a such a "good enough" execution. WotC had a business need for the setting changes (not an automatically bad thing). However, they geared everything in the setting towards that goal without taking a step back to really consider the deeper ramifications of those changes, both in setting and for the fan community as a whole.

They thought to ask what was wrong with the Realms but failed to ask what was good about the setting. There was no compromise or bridge between the two main versions of the setting. It was good enough to satisfy the goal and they expected fans to hop across without too much trouble. They miscalculated the sense of detachment to the new setting some previous fans felt.

When WotC continues with the Spellplague version (no reason to believe they will drop it) I think addressing this gap would bring a lot of people back. If done right this could be that accessible Realms reaching out to the optimal number of fans while still maintaining a distinct setting.

On this point, the 'flawless' execution may be a steep order and Ed may not be the person to direct this. I think Ed Greenwood presents Elminster's Forgotten Realms is set up to address the other side of this problem.
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe

USA
470 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2012 :  02:36:02  Show Profile  Visit Old Man Harpell's Homepage Send Old Man Harpell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lily M Green

Rather than a complete reboot I do like the idea that's been touted regarding a diverging timeline.

Further back in the thread it was mentioned that the idea likely wouldn't be financially viable because you would effectively halve the number of consumers for a product, but I don't agree with that assertion. If a certain percentage of your potential buyers don't like the route you've taken a product down then they aren't going to buy it anyway, so an alternative timeline where the Spellplague didn't occur could potentially bring disenfranchised gamers back into the fold. Also, gamers playing in the post Spellplague Realms may also decide that they want to explore the alternative. Then, of course, there's the small matter of the 100 year gap between the Spellplague occurring and 4E kicking in, the alternate timeline could easily exist in those hundred years without interfering with anything written for 4E Realms. With the alternate timeline seemingly being something of a consensus here it does make me wonder if it will be considered.

With regard to actual game mechanics, well I see no reason why, with comprehensive ruleset conversion tables - by which I mean not just linear but non-sequential conversion tables that would allow conversion from 5E to 1E if desired - any lore edition can't be played with any ruleset.


Bolding/italics mine. This is it precisely. This keeps people who would otherwise not bother with anything Wizbro puts out concerning the Shattered Realms - it gives them a Realms a lot closer to what Ed would (by all appearances) want.

And not to sound cold here, but it lets the two lines stand or fall on their own merits. I'm willing to see what they do with the Shattered Realms - hopefully they can go in and fix the most blatant screw-ups committed. I'm not going to hold my breath, but I'm willing to see what happens.

With the news that we get to see the Realms the way Ed presents it to his players (-insert envious look here-), this will hopefully become a moot point. Someone pointed out that, in a way, this may be considered an 'alternate timeline' in and of itself. I will certainly be liable to treat it as such - this is going to be my b-day present to myself this (or perhaps next) year.
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Sylrae
Learned Scribe

Canada
306 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2012 :  03:08:33  Show Profile Send Sylrae a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My "preferred D&D edition" is 3.5/Pathfinder.
If you make a game similar to that via your modular game design great.

Note - My preferred fantasy RPG overall is probably Ghosts of Albion + Dungeons and Zombies, even though there are very few unisystem books I can use to add to it, compared to D&D, and no proper monster manuals or big books of spells, or books of gear. Not because its rules-lite. Because I find I'm liking skill-based classless systems over level-based classed systems, and I prefer the more "humanlike" powerlevel of Unisystem, Shadowrun, and World of Darkness.
I dont think that 5e will take that big of a departure from 4e and 3.5e though.

What are you offering me to draw me & my money away from the main competing game I've been playing the past 4 years while you've switched to products I have no interest in?
I have pathfinder. Will 5e be substantially better? If it's only of "comparable quality", then why will I switch (or play both, as opposed to just sticking with pathfinder)?

Forgotten Realms would be a good reason. But the Shattered Realms just aren't going to cut it. I'm not interested in post-apocalyptic Faerun. If I want Post-apocalyptic I'll go play Dark Sun. Additionally, I have shelves of FR books already, and I want them to be relevant if I'm using that setting.

FR with all the stuff that got killed off with the advent of 4e brought back (as though 4e hadnt made it a different setting completely) would be a good reason to get 5e stuff. For me that means the 4e retcons would be gone, including the 4e monster and race edition-contradictions being reversed, and the things that were ignored as though they hadnt existed for 4 years (Dragonkin & Cult of the Dragon Stuff) gets supported again.

If you want to appeal to shattered realms players & 4e players, great. Do that.
If you want to appeal to the people who didnt appreciate your direction in 4e and have no interest in the shattered realms, then do it.

However, if I'm going to be in a (fairly substantial) camp whose gaming needs get ignored, then you clearly don't want my money - and I'll spend it elsewhere.

Sylrae's Forgotten Realms Fan-Lore Index, with public commenting access to make for easier improvement (WIP)

Edited by - Sylrae on 30 Jan 2012 03:33:43
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sfdragon
Great Reader

2018 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2012 :  03:51:56  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
you know you could play in hte FR setting underneath the pathfinder rules right??

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14020 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2012 :  04:29:02  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
hte FR?

You can use any rules with any setting (I used 3 different sets of rules in Greyhawk.... BEFORE I started playing AD&D). You can even use 4e in Golarion (although I haven't heard of anyone doing so).

But what they propose is releasing setting books that are rules-independent, which makes it far easier to do that. Flying Buffalo put out a line of products like that (their Citybooks, which I found excellent, and used a LOT). In fact, they should BUY FB and use their system (it scaled to any game), and their fluff was excellent. They could also take a lesson (for the core starter set) from Tunnels & Trolls, The system completely breaks-down at higher levels, but for just playing a game with first-time players straight out of the box, it can't be beat.

So now I want them to buy Nyambe and Flying Buffalo - my wish list is really entering the Twilight Zone.

Anyhow, we still have no idea how they will "keep your chocolate out of my peanut butter", but that is their plan, and from what I've seen, they seem to be really catering to what us fans want. I don't want anyone to make a decision now - all I ask is that we 'wait and see'.

For the 4e fans here, I can understand their trepidation, but for us pre-plague FR lovers, there is nowhere to go but up.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Sylrae
Learned Scribe

Canada
306 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2012 :  05:05:54  Show Profile Send Sylrae a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@SFDragon: Yes. I've done it. but the conversion isnt an "easy, on the fly" thing as much as I'd like. Additionally, its all out of print. Theyre not releasing new non-spellplague materials (and I refuse to accept spellplague realms as the same setting, it just isn't).

@Markus: There's a guy who has a site for all the Pathfinder AP > 4e Conversions he uses in his home games. so theres at least the one guy who does it.

System-neutral Campaign Settings would be awesome. Alot easier to use. It would likely require more writing than wotc designers are used to (and less game design) - but I'd get books I could get alot more use out of if they did it right.

I agree with Mark though: As someone whose favorite setting ceased to be when 4e was released, either things stay the same, or they get better. I'm not spending my money on Shattered Realms now. Worst case scenario, I continue to not buy any WotC Campaign settings stuff.

But if they dont have a campaign setting I want to play in; and 5e turns out to not be *infinitely better than 3e and 4e and pathfinder*, and is just "about as good as pathfinder", I have less incentive to switch. Because, well, why bother?

I might pick up the main rulebook as a curiosity - I do that for lots of RPG systems. But if its not supported with a setting I like, and the system doesnt please me alot more than pathfinder does (not impossible, I do have many gripes with Pathfinder as well, its far from perfect) the odds of me continually investing in their product line is slim.

A lack of digital copies of the books and reliance on a subscription service are -not- going to help.

But as Markus said: 'wait and see'.

Color me 'cautiously open minded'.
Step 1. Check out initial release. Ponder pros and cons of system.
Step 2. Check out settings: Ponder pros and cons of settings.
Step 3. Decide whether the system or settings are worth further investment.

With 4e my answer to step 3 was no. Hopefully this time around will be more like when 3e came out, and I'll like what I see.

I suppose its also entirely possible that I may buy into 5e and not buy any 'Realms material. In that case I'd be looking for dedicated support to a different setting. Like Ravenloft or Planescape.

Its worth noting that the huge fonts and oft-repeated maps in the 4e books mean I'm getting less content for my money, and it contributes to me feeling cheated. Hopefully they go back to regular font size, cut down on the huge amounts of white space, and dont reprint the maps so often. (Or drop the price of a hardcover to like $25).

Again, we'll see.

Sylrae's Forgotten Realms Fan-Lore Index, with public commenting access to make for easier improvement (WIP)

Edited by - Sylrae on 30 Jan 2012 05:19:56
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1361 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2012 :  05:42:58  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Reboot of the Realms or not, I think given the chance, many of the designers can work towards fixing the post-spellplague image. I REALLY don't like 4E rules, but I'm not bothered so much by the changes, with the exception of the draconian kingdom being dropped into the southern realms. The whole Mulhorand/Unther area should have been a riff right out of dark fantasy of Conan the Barbarian. Go try a free trial of Age of Conan to get an idea what I mean. I never cared much for real world type areas, and I would guess that's why those areas never did well or received much coverage?

Even if the 5th edition rules aren't the greatest, Wotc has stated they intend to support all editions. So hopefully, we will see rules light supplements that we can all use in any edition or worlds we play.

I'm no purist and i freely jack ideas and hooks from any books that come my way that I like. I would HOPE, that WotC or someone in R&D has a subscription to Pathfinder. I said this in another thread, but I think if they took the design approach of their flagship products, the Adventure Paths, it would only help them. I like Golarion but not as much as the Realms and if the Realms did their products in a similar manner I'd be happier than a fat kid in a candy store. Their adventure paths have normal maps, not tactical grids, composing about 50 pages of adventure material and the other 50 or so pages of basically city backdrop articles and bestiaries for a few new unique monsters and other stuff. If you haven't tried one of their products, give it whirl...(I'm loving the Kingmaker and Serpent's Skull paths)and then imagine the same type of book with nothing but Forgotten Realms in it. The idea makes me giddy and I seriously hope WotC tries to emulate best practices...it is what businesses do to improve. You don't have to re-design a wheel, just do your business better than your competitors.

Paizo has stated this is their flagship product that makes them ALOT of money, so much in fact they can actually salary people to work on products as opposed to just freelance and I would guess that might have a big factor in quality of products. If the business executives aren't smart enough to design a working strategy, well they better go hire Michael Porter as a consultant, because some company will do it better, like Paizo.

Really, I guess we should all look at offering solutions to making the Realms better, not just for us, or old guard fogies like me who been reading this stuff since they were 15 in the mid 90's, but for all groups and future players too. Realistically we all are probably going to have to compromise on something when the 5th edition realms comes out. Chances are something's gonna pull our bum hairs, to quote Athrogate the dwarf. Frankly, from what I've seen of products and what we've been told of Ed's upcoming release this fall, future products are trending towards 2nd edition era lore heavy format. And that gives me hope that we're going to see a rebirth of sorts of those golden days.

And I'm not too worried about all the "bad" changes in the Realms we all rant about because Ed Greenwood probably has a dozen answers for every issue we have voiced and 20 more bouncing around in his head that not only fix the problem, but give us some great lore at the same time. And that's just one man. I'm not familiar with all the Realms designers, but we have many that post on these boards and I'm sure they are itching to do the same or are working with Ed and each other to streamline the 5E Realms.

There be my two copper. ;)
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6261 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2012 :  08:00:36  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Eilserus

... not just for us, or old guard fogies like me who been reading this stuff since they were 15 in the mid 90's ...
<ahem>

The mid-90s - that's the young whippersnapper crowd. I was reading that stuff (and listening to Duran Duran) when I was 15 in the mid 80s, and I followed the Realms well before the FR0 Grey Box. Of course I was a punk compared to the even older fogies who'd been around D&D a decade before me, long before it was even called AD&D "1E".

[/Ayrik]
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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2012 :  08:28:43  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

quote:
Eilserus

... not just for us, or old guard fogies like me who been reading this stuff since they were 15 in the mid 90's ...
<ahem>

The mid-90s - that's the young whippersnapper crowd. I was reading that stuff (and listening to Duran Duran) when I was 15 in the mid 80s, and I followed the Realms well before the FR0 Grey Box. Of course I was a punk compared to the even older fogies who'd been around D&D a decade before me, long before it was even called AD&D "1E".



Ah... someone my age. I've been playing (A)D&D in one form or another for over 25 years; I've blathered on about my gaming biography elsewhere, so I won't do so again here. Yeah, there are things I miss about the old days, when it took 15 minutes to create a character and you could run combat almost in real time, but 3.x fixed a number of things that were, while not "broken," definitely clunky rules: THAC0 and/or attack roll tables, old-style saving throws, and fighters who only make one or two effective attacks per minute of combat... and honestly, all of those changes can be made without adding skills, feats, etc., and you have a very nice basic-ruleset fantasy RPG. I think that's the kind of thing we'll see with the design of 5E, and I'm really looking forward to it. As far as the Realms, I'm loving the idea of seeing Ed's Realms, and hoping that we get more of that to follow; I suppose it amounts to a reboot, so I guess I'd have to say I am in favour of a reboot. There. Scroll back on topic.

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe

Ireland
646 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2012 :  13:49:23  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk

quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

Oh, I've never seen anyone supporting an alternate timeline as something that bad. Also, I don't really think I like the pro-Spellplague Realms due to any corporate say-so. I just like the approach better than in previous eras. See for me, I've happily played in the Forgotten Realms without putting any thought into areas that I ditest or NPCs that I don't like. Why? Because they don't interest me while a good portion of the setting does. So I ignore, downplay, evade, and dismiss those aspects. Have been doing so for years. So I think I am compromising when I say that I wish they put out more lore and ideas and flesh-out other aspects of the Realms (supporting ALL eras) and not just the one I like the most. It's been pro-4E for the last 3 years and were the to keep on that same mantra, I'd be very happy indeed. But I also realize that others won't, so I don't have a problem with supporint other times in the Realms too. Others, who want to destroy Canon (yes, it's happend...deal) won't give an inch except to shelve the Canon aspects they don't like as "alternate timelines" which they wistfully hope dies a slow, agonizing death in obscurity.



The problem is, WotC (or at least their superiors at Hasbro) decided that all the people on the message boards who weren't playing in the Realms and were vocal about why they didn't do so were the people who should be listened to. This violates basic business sense; it's easier to keep a customer than to regain a lost customer, and they should have expected to lose customers over the Spellplague. I didn't have the slightest problem with the Spellplague as it was presented in the Cormyr-Shadowdale-Anauroch supermodule trilogy, because it was something the PCs could stop. The fact that they published this trilogy, only to take matters out of the players' hands entirely and railroad the Spellplague through, is what irritates me, and it's the existence of these adventures (also canon) that I think justifies the existence of the alternate timelines (just 2: Spellplague as published, or no Spellplague/drastically reduced Spellplague; I've posted a couple of scenarios for the latter here in the early years of 4E). And for the record, yes, I think they should both be supported by future products; that will keep everybody happy except for those few militants on each side who aren't happy unless the other side isn't... and I think there are more of those in the pro-Spellplague camp than not, judging from the original reaction to the announcement of the changes in the 4E Realms on WotC's messageboards. And yes, I'm aware that one could reach the opposite conclusion looking at posts in CK from that same time period.

Anyway, I'm repeating myself, so I'll shut up, except to say that the reboot fans aren't the first to be accused of wanting something to die a slow, agonizing death in obscurity, and they may not be the last if some sort of parallel timeline scenario doesn't take shape. In any case, I consider myself to be a fan of the Realms, and I will retain that opinion until someone can prove to me that the Realms didn't exist before the Spellplague. (The paranoid part of me is sure that someone has attempted this feat of illogic somewhere; I find my surprises are much more pleasant when I listen to my paranoia.)



I agree with this. What they should have done was taken the Realms and created an almost split in the road. One direction would be if the Spellplague had happened and the other way would be if the Spellplague had been prevented.

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*.
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Sylrae
Learned Scribe

Canada
306 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2012 :  16:08:16  Show Profile Send Sylrae a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ShadowsoulI agree with this. What they should have done was taken the Realms and created an almost split in the road. One direction would be if the Spellplague had happened and the other way would be if the Spellplague had been prevented.



This is what I want for my 5e realms.

Then all the shattered realms can have their cake, without denying me mine.

Of course, this means I want to see Eladrin as Celestials, Tieflings as evil outsiders, I want the pre-spellplague map, and I want my 4-7 subraces of elves back.

If they fall short of that... Well, I'll read the book and decide whether I'm willing to support the 5e realms. And I might support that, and just refuse to call it forgotten realms. But if it's still not the realms anymore? no promises.

Sylrae's Forgotten Realms Fan-Lore Index, with public commenting access to make for easier improvement (WIP)
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Therise
Master of Realmslore

1265 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2012 :  16:54:50  Show Profile Send Therise a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

quote:
Eilserus

... not just for us, or old guard fogies like me who been reading this stuff since they were 15 in the mid 90's ...
<ahem>

The mid-90s - that's the young whippersnapper crowd. I was reading that stuff (and listening to Duran Duran) when I was 15 in the mid 80s, and I followed the Realms well before the FR0 Grey Box. Of course I was a punk compared to the even older fogies who'd been around D&D a decade before me, long before it was even called AD&D "1E".


...I was in college in the mid-90s. Kids today don't appreciate the older generation, or what we did for D&D. I even helped run a D&D club in middle school, and before that I played Chainmail rules! And before that... we played real wargames on big flat boards with little markers and lead figures... *sigh*

You kids better get off my lawn! **shakes garden hose threateningly**


4E Realms was awful, but it's water under the Boareskyr Bridge. Let's make 5E Realms truly shine!
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sfdragon
Great Reader

2018 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2012 :  17:21:16  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
but aren't those lawn gnomes.


why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe

USA
470 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2012 :  19:58:52  Show Profile  Visit Old Man Harpell's Homepage Send Old Man Harpell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Therise

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

quote:
Eilserus

... not just for us, or old guard fogies like me who been reading this stuff since they were 15 in the mid 90's ...
<ahem>

The mid-90s - that's the young whippersnapper crowd. I was reading that stuff (and listening to Duran Duran) when I was 15 in the mid 80s, and I followed the Realms well before the FR0 Grey Box. Of course I was a punk compared to the even older fogies who'd been around D&D a decade before me, long before it was even called AD&D "1E".

...I was in college in the mid-90s. Kids today don't appreciate the older generation, or what we did for D&D. I even helped run a D&D club in middle school, and before that I played Chainmail rules! And before that... we played real wargames on big flat boards with little markers and lead figures... *sigh*

You kids better get off my lawn! **shakes garden hose threateningly**



Pffft...yer all young'uns. I have a good five (estimated) years on Ayrik (20 in the mid-80's), and I remember looking at pictures of EGG back then and thinking 'Man...this guy's old'. Little did I know that would be me someday (hence the first word in my moniker here), and that was already playing OD&D beforehand.

I tried to set up a D&D club both in junior high and high school, but this was the era of Pat Pulling, and was flatly turned down every time I tried.

-squints at the young lady shaking her garden hose- Kids these days...
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Therise
Master of Realmslore

1265 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2012 :  20:33:07  Show Profile Send Therise a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell

quote:
Originally posted by Therise

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

The mid-90s - that's the young whippersnapper crowd. I was reading that stuff (and listening to Duran Duran) when I was 15 in the mid 80s, and I followed the Realms well before the FR0 Grey Box. Of course I was a punk compared to the even older fogies who'd been around D&D a decade before me, long before it was even called AD&D "1E".

...I was in college in the mid-90s. Kids today don't appreciate the older generation, or what we did for D&D. I even helped run a D&D club in middle school, and before that I played Chainmail rules! And before that... we played real wargames on big flat boards with little markers and lead figures... *sigh*

You kids better get off my lawn! **shakes garden hose threateningly**



Pffft...yer all young'uns. I have a good five (estimated) years on Ayrik (20 in the mid-80's), and I remember looking at pictures of EGG back then and thinking 'Man...this guy's old'. Little did I know that would be me someday (hence the first word in my moniker here), and that was already playing OD&D beforehand.

I tried to set up a D&D club both in junior high and high school, but this was the era of Pat Pulling, and was flatly turned down every time I tried.

-squints at the young lady shaking her garden hose- Kids these days...


My mid-school D&D club was around during the Patricia / BADD nonsense. Fortunately, I had the good fortune of having two teachers who knew better.

I suspect we're probably the same age, but thanks for calling me "young"... always makes me smile.


4E Realms was awful, but it's water under the Boareskyr Bridge. Let's make 5E Realms truly shine!

Edited by - Therise on 30 Jan 2012 20:33:53
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
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Posted - 30 Jan 2012 :  20:38:25  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Good old board gaming from days past. I remember a RISK game that took over 24 hours and we played nonstop. I should pick up a copy of that sometime, haven't played it in years. I also remember Heroes Quest another fun little game. Though, I think we made more use of the game board and accessories for detailing dungeon maps for our 2E campaign. :)

Edited by - Eilserus on 30 Jan 2012 20:39:27
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 30 Jan 2012 :  20:45:25  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So Therise, you played all those intense (and overly complicated) SPI and Avalon Hill 'counters' games?

Man, I did so love my counters... I had dozens of those games. The only thing I still had from that era of my gaming was Diplomacy (which is also gone now, sadly).

Me and my buddy must have played Siege of Constantinople at least 30 times. The game was skewed so that it was impossible for Constantinople had to lose - you couldn't win, but you could try to 'do better' each time (your victory was dependent on how many turns you lasted). Kids today wouldn't even play a game like that - they'd fight over who got stuck being 'the losers'. But guess what? Constantinople was the far more interesting side to play. Back then we didn't always play to win, we played to have fun.

It was a simpler time {sigh}

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 30 Jan 2012 20:45:43
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Therise
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 31 Jan 2012 :  04:58:07  Show Profile Send Therise a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

So Therise, you played all those intense (and overly complicated) SPI and Avalon Hill 'counters' games?

Back in the day, I was completely addicted to the WWII ones. I couldn't tell you which companies, though, my memory isn't quite that good. Somewhere in the house, I still have little miniature Panzer tanks (with lots of lead and pot-metal, so they bent!) and a big box of a ton-load of those mini-games (with chits you had to scissor up) that they used to sell for $2.95 in small plastic cases. Remember that? FUN for a mere $2.95. I loved those, each with their own little theme. I even remember one (from an old Dragon magazine, I think, called "Snit's Revenge"), it was one of the cutest.

But also things like Galactic Conquest, I liked that a lot. All those eventually led into us doing Chainmail and then D&D. Seems like I have an original boxed basic game with the dice and all, locked away in some box.

quote:
Man, I did so love my counters... I had dozens of those games. The only thing I still had from that era of my gaming was Diplomacy (which is also gone now, sadly).

Well, sadly and ironically I think it was TSR that ended up killing the classic wargames. Didn't they buy SSI or one of the other major companies, and it all seemed to totally dry up after that?

quote:
Me and my buddy must have played Siege of Constantinople at least 30 times. The game was skewed so that it was impossible for Constantinople had to lose - you couldn't win, but you could try to 'do better' each time (your victory was dependent on how many turns you lasted). Kids today wouldn't even play a game like that - they'd fight over who got stuck being 'the losers'. But guess what? Constantinople was the far more interesting side to play. Back then we didn't always play to win, we played to have fun.

It was a simpler time {sigh}


Heh, yep... really good times. *sigh*


4E Realms was awful, but it's water under the Boareskyr Bridge. Let's make 5E Realms truly shine!

Edited by - Therise on 31 Jan 2012 04:59:17
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JamesLowder
Forgotten Realms Author & Game Designer

USA
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Posted - 18 Mar 2012 :  08:52:21  Show Profile  Visit JamesLowder's Homepage Send JamesLowder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

The active Candlekeep scribes whom I consider affiliated with WotC are Matt and Brian James, Steven Schend, James Lowder, and of course Ed (via proxy). Erik, Elaine, PSK, RLB, and many others are more loosely affiliated. I consider them all privy to "inside" proprietary NDA secrets, though of course my list is far from complete or accurate and WotC employees have recently been coming and going a bit faster than I can follow.


Haven't been to the Keep for a while, so I just saw this.

Just so it's clear: I'm not affiliated with WotC in any way, beyond whatever work I did for TSR and Wizards in the past. I haven't worked for the company for quite a few years.

In fact, most of the people you listed are not privy to inside information about the Realms or anything else having to do with 5E, beyond what they are working on individually for the company. If they don't have a current project, they're likely completely out of the loop on the Realms and everything else. Sure, we may hear rumors and, if we know people working on the current incarnation, we might hear other snippets, but the company as a whole does not share information with former and, in a lot of cases, current freelancers. In fact, freelancers frequently find out about reprints and other uses of our own books at the same time the public does.

The only people who can speak to what's going on in Renton, as far as official plans and the like, are the company reps.

Edited by - JamesLowder on 18 Mar 2012 09:01:16
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4586 Posts

Posted - 18 Mar 2012 :  16:21:34  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage  Send Erik Scott de Bie an AOL message Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JamesLowder

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

The active Candlekeep scribes whom I consider affiliated with WotC are Matt and Brian James, Steven Schend, James Lowder, and of course Ed (via proxy). Erik, Elaine, PSK, RLB, and many others are more loosely affiliated. I consider them all privy to "inside" proprietary NDA secrets, though of course my list is far from complete or accurate and WotC employees have recently been coming and going a bit faster than I can follow.


Haven't been to the Keep for a while, so I just saw this.
Just so it's clear: I'm not affiliated with WotC in any way, beyond whatever work I did for TSR and Wizards in the past. I haven't worked for the company for quite a few years.
In fact, most of the people you listed are not privy to inside information about the Realms or anything else having to do with 5E, beyond what they are working on individually for the company. If they don't have a current project, they're likely completely out of the loop on the Realms and everything else. Sure, we may hear rumors and, if we know people working on the current incarnation, we might hear other snippets, but the company as a whole does not share information with former and, in a lot of cases, current freelancers. In fact, freelancers frequently find out about reprints and other uses of our own books at the same time the public does.
The only people who can speak to what's going on in Renton, as far as official plans and the like, are the company reps.
What James said!

Speaking only for myself (never for anyone else), I am not "on the inside" and am not in any way official. I'm just a fan, and I occasionally have the honor/duty of contributing directly to canon Realmslore. The folks at WotC are the ones who can make the decisions, and they are whom you should query with your thoughts, ideas, and appeals.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Signature of Shameless Self-Promotion +6: Order my sixth novel, Shadow of the Winter King (Amazon, e-signing, Dragonmoon Press)

Also check out my Realms work, most recently Shadowbane: Eye of Justice, out now on e-readers everywhere! (Kindle, Nook)
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sfdragon
Great Reader

2018 Posts

Posted - 18 Mar 2012 :  17:17:38  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
it seems reboot is high on the poll....
reboot- bad idea unless you mean removing spellpalgue and other stuff and keep the novels canon...

but I guess alot of individuals here dont like the thought of being reminded of the mess that was made out of the 4e realms....

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4586 Posts

Posted - 18 Mar 2012 :  18:22:00  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage  Send Erik Scott de Bie an AOL message Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I myself feel like a reboot to one particular era is the same as trying to force everyone to play in 4e. What I'd like to see is era-neutral design that allows you to play wherever, whenever you want. What might be a future in one Realms isn't necessarily the future in yours--if anything, it just gives you a good sense of what events to avoid. Don't like the Spellplague? Let your pcs avert it, do it differently with different gods, or ignore it entirely. The designers should not be in the habit of dictating where you "have to play," but rather providing tools for multiple eras where you "could play," and then you get to choose.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Signature of Shameless Self-Promotion +6: Order my sixth novel, Shadow of the Winter King (Amazon, e-signing, Dragonmoon Press)

Also check out my Realms work, most recently Shadowbane: Eye of Justice, out now on e-readers everywhere! (Kindle, Nook)
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe

USA
492 Posts

Posted - 18 Mar 2012 :  20:38:25  Show Profile  Visit Shemmy's Homepage  Send Shemmy an AOL message  Send Shemmy an ICQ Message Send Shemmy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

I myself feel like a reboot to one particular era is the same as trying to force everyone to play in 4e. What I'd like to see is era-neutral design that allows you to play wherever, whenever you want. What might be a future in one Realms isn't necessarily the future in yours--if anything, it just gives you a good sense of what events to avoid. Don't like the Spellplague? Let your pcs avert it, do it differently with different gods, or ignore it entirely. The designers should not be in the habit of dictating where you "have to play," but rather providing tools for multiple eras where you "could play," and then you get to choose.

Cheers



But would material retconned into the Realms with 4e be included in 5e details on previous eras of the Realms? That's the kicker there I think. I'd love to see multiple eras supported, but it misses the point IMO if I see Primordials and other bits of 4e mythology creeping into the material. There's not easy way to handle this without disappointing something, which is unfortunate.

Personally I want to play 3e era FR within the framework of the Great Wheel cosmology, but unless I'm the luckiest sucker on the face of the planet, I'm not sure that's going to be in the cards. But it's my birthday tommorow, so maybe I'll be lucky and tommorow someone with WotC decides to go that direction in material we'll see once 5e rolls out. ;)

Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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