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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13601 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2012 :  21:14:34  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
By the same token, asking active scribes here isn't a very good indication of what the majority of folks want.

For instance, if I went on a Star Wars fansite, and made a poll asking what's the 'best' Scify franchise - SW, ST, Battlestar, etc... I doubt I would get very accurate results. Online polls are going to be biased base upon whatever site the poll is on, and who the most active participants are.

I could also skew those results all by myself if I wanted to - would you like to see me? (and yes, I can alter my IP address at will). Ergo, one persistent poster can change everything (just look at some of the lemons that have won American Idol - 12 year old girls with cellphones have done that show in).

So NO, I haven't bothered looking at the results - I've been following multiple discussions. I would be surprised if the majority of people actually wanted a start-over, ST-style reboot.

However, I would gladly accept one.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 26 Jan 2012 23:01:01
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3372 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2012 :  21:53:35  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And I doubt WotC is going to go strictly from sales. They know they "messed up" and want to pull in fans from pre-Spellplague yet there is also the lesson of not P.O. your current fan-base. Alternate time lines (IMO) will keep people in those respective 'camps'. And we don't need more camps for the Realms. What we need is more unity and I feel it's only accomplished by producing things ALL Realms fans want. Lets leave the more major "fixing" to Authors, who often provide a better medium for such changes. Sourcebooks often can't convey the type of corrections that we, Realms fans, want....need to be addressed.


4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe

USA
470 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2012 :  22:30:02  Show Profile  Visit Old Man Harpell's Homepage Send Old Man Harpell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

And I doubt WotC is going to go strictly from sales. They know they "messed up" and want to pull in fans from pre-Spellplague yet there is also the lesson of not P.O. your current fan-base. Alternate time lines (IMO) will keep people in those respective 'camps'. And we don't need more camps for the Realms. What we need is more unity and I feel it's only accomplished by producing things ALL Realms fans want. Lets leave the more major "fixing" to Authors, who often provide a better medium for such changes. Sourcebooks often can't convey the type of corrections that we, Realms fans, want....need to be addressed.



I agree with that. If they don't fix the damage, all the sourcebooks in the world won't matter a hill of beans. I'll be running a campaign in, say, 1356 DR Halruaa, and there will always be, in the back of my mind, "Someday, this is all going to be so much wasteland, because some professor didn't know -CENSORED- about the Realms."

This is the main reason the voices for a split timeline have risen in the first place - because no matter what you do in earlier edition, some -CENSORED- is still going to have had Cyric murder Mystra (again!), some -CENSORED- is going to have directed Lisa Smedman to deliberately kill off some of the most popular deities, and some of the more interesting (in addition to some of the least-used) spots in Faerun are going to be thoroughly laid to waste. That thought will always, always be there. It is a frustrating and depressing sensation.

So if they aren't going to give us a timeline where these atrocities don't occur, what are they going to do about it? That is the big bugaboo for people like me. Not to put too fine a point on it, but Wizbro has demonstrated they don't know Item One about the Forgotten Realms.

They made some hideous mistakes. And it's the Brian James, the Eric Scott de Bies, and so on, that have shown they have what's needed to fix it, so Wizbro needs to turn it over to them and keep its grubby hands off the Realms, lest they cause further damage.

The further away they have taken it from Ed's vision, the more it has devolved. Before 4th Edition, it was like a ball on an uneven floor...and you could still identify it, even if you didn't exactly like the way it was rolling.

In 2008, the ball rolled off the floor and over the side of a gaping chasm. We lost sight of it because Wizbro lost sight of it. Time for them to climb into the chasm and retrieve the ball, then give the ball to people who understand what the rules of using the ball are, because they sure didn't, and I'm very dubious as to whether they've actually learned.
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Apex
Learned Scribe

USA
229 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2012 :  22:56:09  Show Profile  Visit Apex's Homepage Send Apex a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

And I doubt WotC is going to go strictly from sales. They know they "messed up" and want to pull in fans from pre-Spellplague yet there is also the lesson of not P.O. your current fan-base. Alternate time lines (IMO) will keep people in those respective 'camps'. And we don't need more camps for the Realms. What we need is more unity and I feel it's only accomplished by producing things ALL Realms fans want. Lets leave the more major "fixing" to Authors, who often provide a better medium for such changes. Sourcebooks often can't convey the type of corrections that we, Realms fans, want....need to be addressed.





Once again though, the problem is that many of those in my "camp" simply do not and will not accept the shattered realms as the Realms at all. It is simply another campaign world that stole heavily from the world I loved. The only way they are getting people like me back is to reboot/off alternate timelines (and i am guessing they know it).

As for the amazon sales ranks, the only thing that matters at all is the raw rank. The fact that an out of print old edition of FRCS is even ranked anywhere near the currently promoted in print edition shows just how poorly the 4E Shattered Realms are doing. And please get off the novels, Drizzt novels sell no matter what. Bob could write a book about Drizzt in Victorian England going after Jack the Ripper (who turns out to be Entreri) and it would sell. What matters is that the Shattered Realms is losing (no matter by how much) to an out of print unsupported old edition of the Forgotten Realms.
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe

USA
586 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2012 :  00:12:06  Show Profile  Visit Tyrant's Homepage Send Tyrant a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Apex
As for the amazon sales ranks, the only thing that matters at all is the raw rank. The fact that an out of print old edition of FRCS is even ranked anywhere near the currently promoted in print edition shows just how poorly the 4E Shattered Realms are doing.

Why don't you walk us through how it, at this moment with no accounting for any sales prior to this moment apparently (or whatever constitutes "current), absolutely must mean that one has done better than the other. Or, how me pointing out that several novels are ranked quite a bit higher on the metric you chose is apparently meaningless. Do we know that the older one wasn't on sale? Do we know that a large number of new fans that came onboard with 4E and have already bought 4E books didn't decide to buy some older books? And if 3E was so much more popular, who is buying it right now? Wouldn't they stand an excellent chance of already owning the book if they are a fan? I know I don't tend to become a fan of something until after I own it. We have no idea what the relative or actual sales numbers actually are. We have no idea if the people buying the books are fans of 4E (or 1E or 2E for that matter) and are buying this other book to see what's what. You are choosing to attribute the scenario that best accomodates your argument without saying why that has to be the case as opposed to any number of other possibilities. So, please, explain what you are getting at and how.

As an example of why current sales can be completely misleading when trying to determine overall success, the latest Underworld movie made more at the box office than Star Wars did this last weekend. To say it is the more successful is to completely ignore that Star Wars has the second highest inflation adjusted box office of all time. Now, I already know that you are going to point out that SW wasn't actually a possible choice this last weekend whereas both books are presently available and that's fair. It's also why I chose SW. Next month The Phantom Menace will be out in theaters again. It could make no money at all and still have higher overall sales than just about anything it is likely to go up against because it already made tremendous amounts of money. It is highly unlikely that any movie being released against the 3D TPM will be anywhere near as overall successful as TPM (which stands as the 7th highest non adjusted domestic gross and 21st highest adjusted gross). Unless you have actual sales numbers (that hopefully stretch beyond the immediate past) that we can compare, what's the point?

Edit to add: To be crystal clear, I am not directly comparing 4E anything to SW anything. Clearly 4E D&D hasn't met whatever expectations were set down by the corporate overlords. That much is not in doubt. I am saying that we need to quit making bold assumptions of sales figures when we don't have them. If we had them, I have to believe that they would've materialized in one of these discussions by now. I honestly wouldn't be at all surprised if 3E material outsold 4E. I think it is highly likely. What I don't know, or assume to know, is by how much one outsold the other up to this point or what level of crossover occured between fans (3E fans who stuck around into 4E). I also don't assume that everyone who bought 3E FR material that decided not to buy 4E FR material absolutely had to have made that choice based on the Spellplague and that if that is made to go away that they will all come back like nothing happened.
quote:
And please get off the novels, Drizzt novels sell no matter what. Bob could write a book about Drizzt in Victorian England going after Jack the Ripper (who turns out to be Entreri) and it would sell. What matters is that the Shattered Realms is losing (no matter by how much) to an out of print unsupported old edition of the Forgotten Realms.

Why should I? If the novels beat the RPG that badly then they should be given primary consideration. That's basic math, which many here seem to favor in their arguments. Your point is based entirely on what is happening "right now" in Amazon sales and "right now" Drizzt is smoking both books, as is The Masked Witches. While Ed's more recent books are being outsold by the 4E book. I personally think Ed's books are better, but numbers don't lie.

As for winning and losing, I will ask again, is this a trend that stretches back over a serious length of time or not? Either way, what exactly do those rankings mean in raw numbers? Why don't the novels, a number of which clearly seem to be doing better by that metric, not matter again? Beyond being able to say "right now this book is selling more than this book" what does this information actually mean? Not what you want it to mean.

The Amazon ratings are worthless for a big picture.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code

Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest

Edited by - Tyrant on 27 Jan 2012 00:23:45
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe

USA
470 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2012 :  00:13:33  Show Profile  Visit Old Man Harpell's Homepage Send Old Man Harpell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Apex

quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

And I doubt WotC is going to go strictly from sales. They know they "messed up" and want to pull in fans from pre-Spellplague yet there is also the lesson of not P.O. your current fan-base. Alternate time lines (IMO) will keep people in those respective 'camps'. And we don't need more camps for the Realms. What we need is more unity and I feel it's only accomplished by producing things ALL Realms fans want. Lets leave the more major "fixing" to Authors, who often provide a better medium for such changes. Sourcebooks often can't convey the type of corrections that we, Realms fans, want....need to be addressed.





Once again though, the problem is that many of those in my "camp" simply do not and will not accept the shattered realms as the Realms at all. It is simply another campaign world that stole heavily from the world I loved. The only way they are getting people like me back is to reboot/off alternate timelines (and i am guessing they know it).

As for the amazon sales ranks, the only thing that matters at all is the raw rank. The fact that an out of print old edition of FRCS is even ranked anywhere near the currently promoted in print edition shows just how poorly the 4E Shattered Realms are doing. And please get off the novels, Drizzt novels sell no matter what. Bob could write a book about Drizzt in Victorian England going after Jack the Ripper (who turns out to be Entreri) and it would sell. What matters is that the Shattered Realms is losing (no matter by how much) to an out of print unsupported old edition of the Forgotten Realms.


What's going to make a difference is how they try to pull in fans from earlier eras. If they just let the Shattered Realms sail along as is and do absolutely nothing to fix it, they'll have simply sunk deeper into the colossal steaming pile that they stepped in without any foresight. All the support in the Cosmos for earlier editions will mean nothing, because their foul-up will still hang over our heads like a Sword of Damocles. It was that that started the Edition Wars...everything up to that point had been, at best, a brushfire conflict.

I disagree that the Shattered Realms cannot once again become the Realms that everyone can...well...at least accept. But I'd be very surprised if Wizbro actually did what was needed to accomplish that feat. I've been wrong before...but I don't think this time is one of those times.

- OMH

Edited by - Old Man Harpell on 27 Jan 2012 00:14:52
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3372 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2012 :  00:16:11  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Apex



Once again though, the problem is that many of those in my "camp" simply do not and will not accept the shattered realms as the Realms at all. It is simply another campaign world that stole heavily from the world I loved. The only way they are getting people like me back is to reboot/off alternate timelines (and i am guessing they know it).


Ah, so it's all or nothing then? Yea, I don't think WotC is best served by yielding to uncompromising requirements from a fraction of it's fanbase. Fortunatley, I feel there's enough fans of the setting to see that the sandbox is big enough for everyone to play in without segregation to occur.

quote:
Originally posted by Apex


What matters is that the Shattered Realms is losing (no matter by how much) to an out of print unsupported old edition of the Forgotten Realms.



First, I didn't know it was a competition to "win". BTW, who's keeping score and what's on Second? Also, if you believe the FRCS is unsupported then your sorely wrong. The fact is, A LOT of FRCS information is edition free. AND Pathfinder is really close enough to 'port over lots of existing edition material. And really, it's just good old Realmslore. "I" still use it for my 4E Forgotten Realms campaigns and if I were to lose it, i'd buy another one. That's coming from a supporter of the "Shattered Realms". It can work for really any edition of the game. And that's what I'd like to see them get back to. Hell, they could just take the FRCS, reflavor it up a bit with some new info, slap on the current happenings and I think it'd sell like hot-cakes. Put in new plots, rumors, and some un-known information. Expand on the 1375 to 1385 (or 1400) DR timeline and then go into more details about everything and I don't see why anyone wouldn't want to buy it.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe

USA
470 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2012 :  00:34:36  Show Profile  Visit Old Man Harpell's Homepage Send Old Man Harpell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Ah, so it's all or nothing then? Yea, I don't think WotC is best served by yielding to uncompromising requirements from a fraction of it's fanbase. Fortunatley, I feel there's enough fans of the setting to see that the sandbox is big enough for everyone to play in without segregation to occur.


To be fair, Diffan, both points of view have been saying "No way!" People who want a reboot see folks standing in front of them as brutal bruisers with their arms crossed over their chests saying "That's a stupid idea! We won't allow that!", preventing them from having the Realms as they feel it should be

Conversely, Shattered Realms aficionados see reboot advocates as sadistic vivisectionists who want to gut the patient in order to cure the affliction, which will take away the Realms as they have come to like it on Wizbro's cold corporate say-so.

Both sides have a point, but it goes without saying that neither side considers themselves in the light the other side has cast them in.

And the ironic part of all this is...no one actually knows what's going to happen to the Realms after this year (unlike the system itself). Wizbro is going out of its way to blow smoke up our knickers in this regard, so really, all this is academic, anyways.

- OMH
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3372 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2012 :  04:06:59  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell

quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Ah, so it's all or nothing then? Yea, I don't think WotC is best served by yielding to uncompromising requirements from a fraction of it's fanbase. Fortunatley, I feel there's enough fans of the setting to see that the sandbox is big enough for everyone to play in without segregation to occur.


To be fair, Diffan, both points of view have been saying "No way!" People who want a reboot see folks standing in front of them as brutal bruisers with their arms crossed over their chests saying "That's a stupid idea! We won't allow that!", preventing them from having the Realms as they feel it should be

Conversely, Shattered Realms aficionados see reboot advocates as sadistic vivisectionists who want to gut the patient in order to cure the affliction, which will take away the Realms as they have come to like it on Wizbro's cold corporate say-so.


Oh, I've never seen anyone supporting an alternate timeline as something that bad. Also, I don't really think I like the pro-Spellplague Realms due to any corporate say-so. I just like the approach better than in previous eras. See for me, I've happily played in the Forgotten Realms without putting any thought into areas that I ditest or NPCs that I don't like. Why? Because they don't interest me while a good portion of the setting does. So I ignore, downplay, evade, and dismiss those aspects. Have been doing so for years. So I think I am compromising when I say that I wish they put out more lore and ideas and flesh-out other aspects of the Realms (supporting ALL eras) and not just the one I like the most. It's been pro-4E for the last 3 years and were the to keep on that same mantra, I'd be very happy indeed. But I also realize that others won't, so I don't have a problem with supporint other times in the Realms too. Others, who want to destroy Canon (yes, it's happend...deal) won't give an inch except to shelve the Canon aspects they don't like as "alternate timelines" which they wistfully hope dies a slow, agonizing death in obscurity.

quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell


Both sides have a point, but it goes without saying that neither side considers themselves in the light the other side has cast them in.

And the ironic part of all this is...no one actually knows what's going to happen to the Realms after this year (unlike the system itself). Wizbro is going out of its way to blow smoke up our knickers in this regard, so really, all this is academic, anyways.

- OMH



Of course, but we never know how much (or any) of these types of conversations get heard by the WotC people. Heck, I believe it was one poster's idea that Torm be given the title of the Triad during 3E to 4E's transition and was made so instead of what they were originally going to do. Our voices are heard, contrary to what people might believe.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2012 :  23:59:24  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

Oh, I've never seen anyone supporting an alternate timeline as something that bad. Also, I don't really think I like the pro-Spellplague Realms due to any corporate say-so. I just like the approach better than in previous eras. See for me, I've happily played in the Forgotten Realms without putting any thought into areas that I ditest or NPCs that I don't like. Why? Because they don't interest me while a good portion of the setting does. So I ignore, downplay, evade, and dismiss those aspects. Have been doing so for years. So I think I am compromising when I say that I wish they put out more lore and ideas and flesh-out other aspects of the Realms (supporting ALL eras) and not just the one I like the most. It's been pro-4E for the last 3 years and were the to keep on that same mantra, I'd be very happy indeed. But I also realize that others won't, so I don't have a problem with supporint other times in the Realms too. Others, who want to destroy Canon (yes, it's happend...deal) won't give an inch except to shelve the Canon aspects they don't like as "alternate timelines" which they wistfully hope dies a slow, agonizing death in obscurity.



The problem is, WotC (or at least their superiors at Hasbro) decided that all the people on the message boards who weren't playing in the Realms and were vocal about why they didn't do so were the people who should be listened to. This violates basic business sense; it's easier to keep a customer than to regain a lost customer, and they should have expected to lose customers over the Spellplague. I didn't have the slightest problem with the Spellplague as it was presented in the Cormyr-Shadowdale-Anauroch supermodule trilogy, because it was something the PCs could stop. The fact that they published this trilogy, only to take matters out of the players' hands entirely and railroad the Spellplague through, is what irritates me, and it's the existence of these adventures (also canon) that I think justifies the existence of the alternate timelines (just 2: Spellplague as published, or no Spellplague/drastically reduced Spellplague; I've posted a couple of scenarios for the latter here in the early years of 4E). And for the record, yes, I think they should both be supported by future products; that will keep everybody happy except for those few militants on each side who aren't happy unless the other side isn't... and I think there are more of those in the pro-Spellplague camp than not, judging from the original reaction to the announcement of the changes in the 4E Realms on WotC's messageboards. And yes, I'm aware that one could reach the opposite conclusion looking at posts in CK from that same time period.

Anyway, I'm repeating myself, so I'll shut up, except to say that the reboot fans aren't the first to be accused of wanting something to die a slow, agonizing death in obscurity, and they may not be the last if some sort of parallel timeline scenario doesn't take shape. In any case, I consider myself to be a fan of the Realms, and I will retain that opinion until someone can prove to me that the Realms didn't exist before the Spellplague. (The paranoid part of me is sure that someone has attempted this feat of illogic somewhere; I find my surprises are much more pleasant when I listen to my paranoia.)

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.

Edited by - Jakk on 28 Jan 2012 00:03:35
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe

USA
470 Posts

Posted - 28 Jan 2012 :  12:12:54  Show Profile  Visit Old Man Harpell's Homepage Send Old Man Harpell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk

The problem is, WotC (or at least their superiors at Hasbro) decided that all the people on the message boards who weren't playing in the Realms and were vocal about why they didn't do so were the people who should be listened to. This violates basic business sense; it's easier to keep a customer than to regain a lost customer, and they should have expected to lose customers over the Spellplague. I didn't have the slightest problem with the Spellplague as it was presented in the Cormyr-Shadowdale-Anauroch supermodule trilogy, because it was something the PCs could stop. The fact that they published this trilogy, only to take matters out of the players' hands entirely and railroad the Spellplague through, is what irritates me, and it's the existence of these adventures (also canon) that I think justifies the existence of the alternate timelines (just 2: Spellplague as published, or no Spellplague/drastically reduced Spellplague; I've posted a couple of scenarios for the latter here in the early years of 4E). And for the record, yes, I think they should both be supported by future products; that will keep everybody happy except for those few militants on each side who aren't happy unless the other side isn't... and I think there are more of those in the pro-Spellplague camp than not, judging from the original reaction to the announcement of the changes in the 4E Realms on WotC's messageboards. And yes, I'm aware that one could reach the opposite conclusion looking at posts in CK from that same time period.


Beautifully stated. It's all academic on our part at this point, I admit, but I could not have put it better.

One thing I have noticed, arch-militants aside, is that most people (at least here in the Keep) are able to find a lot of common ground in what they'd like to see. My problem isn't even with the few arch-militants (mainly because I know the discussion is, as I said, academic). It's with Wizbro, and the creeping sense of dread that I have that they're going to step in the steaming pile again where the Realms are concerned.
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Razz
Senior Scribe

USA
712 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2012 :  04:08:48  Show Profile  Visit Razz's Homepage  Send Razz an AOL message Send Razz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant

quote:
Originally posted by Razz
Or do you mean reboot back to before the 4th Edition-Spellplague garbage?


quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant Given how discussions have been going about this topic, what are you hoping to accomplish here?


I asked a question while displaying my (numerously defended) opinion that anything involving events leading to the Spellplague and the 4e Realms as pure rubbish. I don't want to bring "the war" upon us all for the umpteenth time, but how do you expect me to accept that as actual Realmslore? We all have read WotC actually admit they were taking the core 4E setting and force-feeding it to the Realms. Why else do we have nations of Dragonborn, genasi composed of ALL elements, the entire Vancian magic system thrown to the winds, and the sudden emergence of the Feywild (which is not the original Faerie of the Realms to begin with since Eladrin are not elves, they're Chaotic Good celestials, and a myriad of other things that're off topic). We all read how much they all hated having to change the Realms, and even Ed himself strode into the offices warning them, but they did it anyway. WotC was very honest with 4e Realms NOT SUPPOSED to be the way it ended up as (but never saying it directly), but it did, and it's kind of hard to watch Realms fans accept that it should've been.

Yes, it's speculation, but it's very hard to throw away the evidence WotC so willingly shared that proves such speculations to be highly credible.

quote:
Originally posted by RazzBecause I'm all for going back to 1375 D.R. and no earlier. Not a fan of rebooting it all over, however. That's a lot of lore to throw out. I think we need to start back at 1375 D.R. but be more concise and respectful to everything written before.

quote:
Originally posted by TyrantYou're concerned about throwing out lore and being respectful to everything that has come before, and you are wanting to throw out everything after 1375. These comments and goals seem to be at odds.


I point to what I said above to answer that question.

quote:
Originally posted by RazzAs in, I think it should be mandated for authors and designers to do ALL their research prior to committing to a project. No ifs, ands, or buts.


[quote]Originally posted by TyrantThat's pretty slick implying that the authors aren't doing their job without actually saying it.



I just finished reading on WotC's site (or maybe it was ENWorld's) that VERY FEW of the authors/designers actually have enough love and care for the Realms to do their research before throwing out new Realmslore without paying heed to what may or may not contradict or retcon lore from previous work. I think it's very disrespectful to undo someone else's design work like that and very sloppy, too, and it also shows disrespect to the fans, as well. It's a rather shameful maneuver the comic book industry itself is known to wantonly do quite often, and I hate to see Realmslore be delegated on the same principles as comic book story-writing is done.
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Sylrae
Learned Scribe

Canada
299 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2012 :  06:18:58  Show Profile Send Sylrae a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I voted no.

But I dont want them to keep the 4e realms. Ideally they would support all the eras; and could sell 4 campaign settings.

FR: Arcane Age (ancient ages)
FR: Grey Era (pre-ToT) (original)
FR: "Needs a Name" (pre-sundering) (later AD&D & 3e)
FR: Spellplague

Personally I'd buy all but the spellplague stuff.

Barring that? Go back to 1385DR, have some sort of justification and let the Alu warn Mystra and such in time to avert Mystra's death. Mystra lives, and the fallout can happen differently over a few years. Basically pick up where 3.5 left off.

And Ideally, bump the novels 20-30 years ahead of the campaign setting plot. No gamebreaking events for those "staying current" and you dont have to give away novel spoilers to please the gamers.

If they just continue with post spellplague realms and dont release anything for previous eras? I doubt I'll be buying the new FR books then.

Basically what I said here
http://www.enworld.org/forum/new-horizons-upcoming-edition-d-d/316394-5e-forgotten-realms-what-will-look-like-7.html#post5798022

Sylrae's Forgotten Realms Fan-Lore Index, with public commenting access to make for easier improvement (WIP)

Edited by - Sylrae on 29 Jan 2012 06:21:56
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe

USA
586 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2012 :  06:29:38  Show Profile  Visit Tyrant's Homepage Send Tyrant a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
I asked a question while displaying my (numerously defended) opinion that anything involving events leading to the Spellplague and the 4e Realms as pure rubbish. I don't want to bring "the war" upon us all for the umpteenth time, but how do you expect me to accept that as actual Realmslore?

Accept it or don't accept it, either way doesn't phase anyone but you. I don't expect you to do anything. You will do what you will do. On the other hand, I assume you know other ways to state your dislike of something than calling it pure rubbish. Especially in the face of knowing that some fans here actually like it and knowing that the authors of what you call rubbish frequent this site. It's common courtesy to at least try to be respectful of what people other than yourself like or dislike. Calling it pure rubbish is purely a move to try to call down the edition war, despite what you say. Is it really so hard to just say you don't like it? Or to say you strongly dislike it to the point that you haven't bought into any of it?
quote:
WotC was very honest with 4e Realms NOT SUPPOSED to be the way it ended up as (but never saying it directly), but it did, and it's kind of hard to watch Realms fans accept that it should've been.


People have different tastes. And what are you trying to say they were very honest about yet never actually said? And how does that work exactly? How can someone be honest about something yet never actually say it?
quote:
Yes, it's speculation, but it's very hard to throw away the evidence WotC so willingly shared that proves such speculations to be highly credible.

Willing shared without ever actually saying? Again, how does that work?
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by RazzBecause I'm all for going back to 1375 D.R. and no earlier. Not a fan of rebooting it all over, however. That's a lot of lore to throw out. I think we need to start back at 1375 D.R. but be more concise and respectful to everything written before.

quote:
Originally posted by TyrantYou're concerned about throwing out lore and being respectful to everything that has come before, and you are wanting to throw out everything after 1375. These comments and goals seem to be at odds.


I point to what I said above to answer that question.

That doesn't answer the logical disconnect. You value everything that came before. Everything includes the Spellplague, which you want to throw out. So, you don't value everything. It doesn't matter that you don't consider that part of the Realms. To the world at large it is, meaning it is included in everything. Mental gymnastics don't eliminate that fact.

It would be like me saying that I love all chocolate. Then saying that I don't consider white chocolate to be real chocolate, and that I hate white chocolate. To someone else, that last statement should invalidate the first because no matter what I think white chocolate is chocolate.

In the event that white chocolate actually isn't real chocolate, I hope anyone rushing to point that out will still get the point I am trying to make.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by RazzAs in, I think it should be mandated for authors and designers to do ALL their research prior to committing to a project. No ifs, ands, or buts.


quote:
Originally posted by TyrantThat's pretty slick implying that the authors aren't doing their job without actually saying it.



I just finished reading on WotC's site (or maybe it was ENWorld's) that VERY FEW of the authors/designers actually have enough love and care for the Realms to do their research before throwing out new Realmslore without paying heed to what may or may not contradict or retcon lore from previous work. I think it's very disrespectful to undo someone else's design work like that and very sloppy, too, and it also shows disrespect to the fans, as well. It's a rather shameful maneuver the comic book industry itself is known to wantonly do quite often, and I hate to see Realmslore be delegated on the same principles as comic book story-writing is done.


Like who? And who said this? What is their position at WotC?

Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code

Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe

USA
830 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2012 :  07:04:59  Show Profile Send Dark Wizard a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell

I agree with that. If they don't fix the damage, all the sourcebooks in the world won't matter a hill of beans. I'll be running a campaign in, say, 1356 DR Halruaa, and there will always be, in the back of my mind, "Someday, this is all going to be so much wasteland, because some professor didn't know -CENSORED- about the Realms."

This is the main reason the voices for a split timeline have risen in the first place - because no matter what you do in earlier edition, some -CENSORED- is still going to have had Cyric murder Mystra (again!), some -CENSORED- is going to have directed Lisa Smedman to deliberately kill off some of the most popular deities, and some of the more interesting (in addition to some of the least-used) spots in Faerun are going to be thoroughly laid to waste. That thought will always, always be there. It is a frustrating and depressing sensation.



The frustration and depressing sentiment mentioned by Old Man Harpell is the precise reason why I would rather invest my time and energy into other settings. No matter what I do in my game, the 4E Realms ever looms in the future timeline of the setting. I could ignore it, but Iím inundated by news of recent material. New players are exposed to the new version and the old version will fade from the player base with time. It will not happen over night, but eventually the weight of influence will weight more and more heavily towards the 4E Realms.

For me this is the greatest disincentive for my continued support of the Realms beyond a passing nostalgic curiosity. Why would I try to reconcile the new with the old when I dislike the new and see it as the reason why the old will start to become more obscure and unavailable.

I simply am not interested in the 4E Realms. While I see a lot in common with the prior edition Realms, there is a lot I truly dislike and going on five years that dislike has not abated. As long as Wizards sticks to the Post-Spellplague Realms, I do not see myself being an active fan of the setting because all the material I am interested in is past tense, done and published.

What possible reason do I have to jump on the Spellplagued Realms bandwagon? Not a one.

One could argue raiding New Realms stuff for the prior edition setting, but then there is the issue of sifting through Spellplague vs. generic Realms material and also backwards converting material. With the work involved, I could adapt material from any setting or publisher or just make it up. The discontinuity between the two versions of the setting is a definite barrier to a cohesive setting.
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Sylrae
Learned Scribe

Canada
299 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2012 :  07:08:30  Show Profile Send Sylrae a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Dark Wizard: What about the "support multiple eras" approach I mentioned?

Sylrae's Forgotten Realms Fan-Lore Index, with public commenting access to make for easier improvement (WIP)
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Therise
Master of Realmslore

1265 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2012 :  07:53:44  Show Profile Send Therise a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard

quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell

I agree with that. If they don't fix the damage, all the sourcebooks in the world won't matter a hill of beans. I'll be running a campaign in, say, 1356 DR Halruaa, and there will always be, in the back of my mind, "Someday, this is all going to be so much wasteland, because some professor didn't know -CENSORED- about the Realms."

This is the main reason the voices for a split timeline have risen in the first place - because no matter what you do in earlier edition, some -CENSORED- is still going to have had Cyric murder Mystra (again!), some -CENSORED- is going to have directed Lisa Smedman to deliberately kill off some of the most popular deities, and some of the more interesting (in addition to some of the least-used) spots in Faerun are going to be thoroughly laid to waste. That thought will always, always be there. It is a frustrating and depressing sensation.



The frustration and depressing sentiment mentioned by Old Man Harpell is the precise reason why I would rather invest my time and energy into other settings. No matter what I do in my game, the 4E Realms ever looms in the future timeline of the setting. I could ignore it, but Iím inundated by news of recent material. New players are exposed to the new version and the old version will fade from the player base with time. It will not happen over night, but eventually the weight of influence will weight more and more heavily towards the 4E Realms.

For me this is the greatest disincentive for my continued support of the Realms beyond a passing nostalgic curiosity. Why would I try to reconcile the new with the old when I dislike the new and see it as the reason why the old will start to become more obscure and unavailable.

I simply am not interested in the 4E Realms. While I see a lot in common with the prior edition Realms, there is a lot I truly dislike and going on five years that dislike has not abated. As long as Wizards sticks to the Post-Spellplague Realms, I do not see myself being an active fan of the setting because all the material I am interested in is past tense, done and published.

What possible reason do I have to jump on the Spellplagued Realms bandwagon? Not a one.

One could argue raiding New Realms stuff for the prior edition setting, but then there is the issue of sifting through Spellplague vs. generic Realms material and also backwards converting material. With the work involved, I could adapt material from any setting or publisher or just make it up. The discontinuity between the two versions of the setting is a definite barrier to a cohesive setting.


Very well said. I feel the same.


4E Realms was awful, but it's water under the Boareskyr Bridge. Let's make 5E Realms truly shine!
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe

USA
830 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2012 :  08:05:42  Show Profile Send Dark Wizard a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Sylrae

@Dark Wizard: What about the "support multiple eras" approach I mentioned?



I think it's the best compromise out of all the ideas people have discussed. There are still issues to overcome with such a course of action.

- Confusion: Which era are we playing in? Some eras will likely get more attention than others, so assuming at least 1370s and 1480s Realms are the main eras, groups will have to discuss where things stand. This didn't have to happen by default to such a degree with previous material being closer in time and setting layout. Any changes were by the choice of the group or DM, but it wasn't a necessity. Playing in a different era was the exception, the fun side game. Now there are two or more eras available. Greater choice certainly, but great chance for confusion and even conflict.

The related issue Old Man Harpell mentioned is still present, knowing the supported/canon outcome of major 1480s events and trampling around previous edition. What if the group is split between two era, or changes their minds the next week.

This does little to merge the groups. One group or another will still like the Spellplague or not and offering the choice to all subsequent groups who come into the hobby will ask whatís going on.

If I first started out, rather than this multi-era Realms I would likely have jumped to a setting that started with one place and expanded to the rest of the setting.

- Logistics: Having to juggle the different eras.
Who gets the published book slot this year?
What articles to feature on DDI? (Granted DDI simplifies the cost of printing and delivery a bit.)
How does Living Realms play work now?
Related to above: Will mechanics carry over or be compatible, even setting specific ones (Spellscars, magic items, spells, etc.)? (Granted itís more material for DDI, but how much of this can they feasibly cover?)

- Further Divide: More eras, more groups preferring one other the other, the thinner the main Realms player base.

If authors and contributors are not submitting articles to one era or another. Of if one era is left unsupported, that fraction of the fans will have a negative reaction.

The more is done to help this problem could cause more problems.

There is something to be said for a version that satisfies the majority of people with the minimal bellyaching for the disenfranchised group. The Spellplague was initiated to head off the foreseen growing portion of non-fans. It inverted the relationship between fans and non-fans. I would argue the proportion is not dissimilar, except that one group never would have liked the setting originally anyway.

Each era (or one era itself alone) with some tweaks could cater to an optimal number of fans. I think WotC needs to find this era and then flawlessly delivery on the execution of said era.
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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2012 :  09:40:26  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell

quote:
Originally posted by Jakk

The problem is, WotC (or at least their superiors at Hasbro) decided that all the people on the message boards who weren't playing in the Realms and were vocal about why they didn't do so were the people who should be listened to. This violates basic business sense; it's easier to keep a customer than to regain a lost customer, and they should have expected to lose customers over the Spellplague. I didn't have the slightest problem with the Spellplague as it was presented in the Cormyr-Shadowdale-Anauroch supermodule trilogy, because it was something the PCs could stop. The fact that they published this trilogy, only to take matters out of the players' hands entirely and railroad the Spellplague through, is what irritates me, and it's the existence of these adventures (also canon) that I think justifies the existence of the alternate timelines (just 2: Spellplague as published, or no Spellplague/drastically reduced Spellplague; I've posted a couple of scenarios for the latter here in the early years of 4E). And for the record, yes, I think they should both be supported by future products; that will keep everybody happy except for those few militants on each side who aren't happy unless the other side isn't... and I think there are more of those in the pro-Spellplague camp than not, judging from the original reaction to the announcement of the changes in the 4E Realms on WotC's messageboards. And yes, I'm aware that one could reach the opposite conclusion looking at posts in CK from that same time period.


Beautifully stated. It's all academic on our part at this point, I admit, but I could not have put it better.

One thing I have noticed, arch-militants aside, is that most people (at least here in the Keep) are able to find a lot of common ground in what they'd like to see. My problem isn't even with the few arch-militants (mainly because I know the discussion is, as I said, academic). It's with Wizbro, and the creeping sense of dread that I have that they're going to step in the steaming pile again where the Realms are concerned.



Thanks for the props, OMH. See my reply to Dark Wizard at the end of this post for my response to the rest of your post.

quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard

<chop>

Each era (or one era itself alone) with some tweaks could cater to an optimal number of fans. I think WotC needs to find this era and then flawlessly delivery on the execution of said era.




I think you're absolutely correct; it's the flawless delivery part that concerns me. I don't know if that's achievable without making Ed the FR Creative Director... not that I don't think that would be a good move, but I don't think Ed wants the formal title, even after the events of 4E. I could be wrong, mind you.

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.

Edited by - Jakk on 29 Jan 2012 09:42:30
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Razz
Senior Scribe

USA
712 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2012 :  11:27:17  Show Profile  Visit Razz's Homepage  Send Razz an AOL message Send Razz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant

quote:
Originally posted by Razz
I asked a question while displaying my (numerously defended) opinion that anything involving events leading to the Spellplague and the 4e Realms as pure rubbish. I don't want to bring "the war" upon us all for the umpteenth time, but how do you expect me to accept that as actual Realmslore?

Accept it or don't accept it, either way doesn't phase anyone but you. I don't expect you to do anything. You will do what you will do. On the other hand, I assume you know other ways to state your dislike of something than calling it pure rubbish. Especially in the face of knowing that some fans here actually like it and knowing that the authors of what you call rubbish frequent this site. It's common courtesy to at least try to be respectful of what people other than yourself like or dislike. Calling it pure rubbish is purely a move to try to call down the edition war, despite what you say. Is it really so hard to just say you don't like it? Or to say you strongly dislike it to the point that you haven't bought into any of it?
quote:
WotC was very honest with 4e Realms NOT SUPPOSED to be the way it ended up as (but never saying it directly), but it did, and it's kind of hard to watch Realms fans accept that it should've been.


People have different tastes. And what are you trying to say they were very honest about yet never actually said? And how does that work exactly? How can someone be honest about something yet never actually say it?
quote:
Yes, it's speculation, but it's very hard to throw away the evidence WotC so willingly shared that proves such speculations to be highly credible.

Willing shared without ever actually saying? Again, how does that work?
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by RazzBecause I'm all for going back to 1375 D.R. and no earlier. Not a fan of rebooting it all over, however. That's a lot of lore to throw out. I think we need to start back at 1375 D.R. but be more concise and respectful to everything written before.

quote:
Originally posted by TyrantYou're concerned about throwing out lore and being respectful to everything that has come before, and you are wanting to throw out everything after 1375. These comments and goals seem to be at odds.


I point to what I said above to answer that question.

That doesn't answer the logical disconnect. You value everything that came before. Everything includes the Spellplague, which you want to throw out. So, you don't value everything. It doesn't matter that you don't consider that part of the Realms. To the world at large it is, meaning it is included in everything. Mental gymnastics don't eliminate that fact.

It would be like me saying that I love all chocolate. Then saying that I don't consider white chocolate to be real chocolate, and that I hate white chocolate. To someone else, that last statement should invalidate the first because no matter what I think white chocolate is chocolate.

In the event that white chocolate actually isn't real chocolate, I hope anyone rushing to point that out will still get the point I am trying to make.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by RazzAs in, I think it should be mandated for authors and designers to do ALL their research prior to committing to a project. No ifs, ands, or buts.


quote:
Originally posted by TyrantThat's pretty slick implying that the authors aren't doing their job without actually saying it.



I just finished reading on WotC's site (or maybe it was ENWorld's) that VERY FEW of the authors/designers actually have enough love and care for the Realms to do their research before throwing out new Realmslore without paying heed to what may or may not contradict or retcon lore from previous work. I think it's very disrespectful to undo someone else's design work like that and very sloppy, too, and it also shows disrespect to the fans, as well. It's a rather shameful maneuver the comic book industry itself is known to wantonly do quite often, and I hate to see Realmslore be delegated on the same principles as comic book story-writing is done.


Like who? And who said this? What is their position at WotC?



I really wish I had the foresight to screenshot all the postings made by FR Designers themselves so that I can prove you wrong right about now, but I don't and I really don't have time (nor remember exactly when) I read those snippets. The Ed Greenwood one is right here at Candlekeep itself, so I don't need to dig for that, you can do a search on it.

I'm sure someone else here can vouch what I mean since such readings weren't obscure and weren't speculation, they were actual statements admitted by WotC themselves. The point is that 4E Realms was never the intended route they wanted to take the Realms to begin with. I don't know who to quote (my feeling is I read it from Richard Baker), but they had huge debates on this new Realms to the point where something made them all finally break and deal with it, reluctantly.

The shift from 1e to 2e brought about the ToT, which didn't really do that much damage to the Realms. The 2e to 3e shift was absolutely perfect. Yeah, we now have unprecedented effects like all races can be any class and new classes, but the Realms has plenty of lore left hidden and these inclusions can easily be written off as "It's always been like this, it's just rare or now being discussed." Point with the conversion from all those times was the designers didn't muddle too much and kept as much consistent as possible. Which I don't have a problem with. However, it's not like that with 4E Realms, but I won't go into detail on that. Everyone else already has by now. The point of that is, there wasn't this Doomsday Debate on the conversion from the past 3.5 editions, but 4e really made them all go into the "What, are you insane?!" category.

That right there says to me,"This is NOT the Realms we wanted, but had to do it" for whatever reason (of which was to please Hasbro and make money for Papa Hasbro).

If the very designers themselves want to treat the 4E Realms as that "unwanted child" they never wished they had to deal at all, then I have every right and reason to do so as well.

Edited by - Razz on 29 Jan 2012 11:27:51
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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
2890 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2012 :  11:32:41  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Rich did say that he fought battles on behalf of the Realms, that we will never ever know about...


"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe

USA
586 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2012 :  14:11:13  Show Profile  Visit Tyrant's Homepage Send Tyrant a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Razz

quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant

quote:
Originally posted by Razz
I asked a question while displaying my (numerously defended) opinion that anything involving events leading to the Spellplague and the 4e Realms as pure rubbish. I don't want to bring "the war" upon us all for the umpteenth time, but how do you expect me to accept that as actual Realmslore?

Accept it or don't accept it, either way doesn't phase anyone but you. I don't expect you to do anything. You will do what you will do. On the other hand, I assume you know other ways to state your dislike of something than calling it pure rubbish. Especially in the face of knowing that some fans here actually like it and knowing that the authors of what you call rubbish frequent this site. It's common courtesy to at least try to be respectful of what people other than yourself like or dislike. Calling it pure rubbish is purely a move to try to call down the edition war, despite what you say. Is it really so hard to just say you don't like it? Or to say you strongly dislike it to the point that you haven't bought into any of it?
quote:
WotC was very honest with 4e Realms NOT SUPPOSED to be the way it ended up as (but never saying it directly), but it did, and it's kind of hard to watch Realms fans accept that it should've been.


People have different tastes. And what are you trying to say they were very honest about yet never actually said? And how does that work exactly? How can someone be honest about something yet never actually say it?
quote:
Yes, it's speculation, but it's very hard to throw away the evidence WotC so willingly shared that proves such speculations to be highly credible.

Willing shared without ever actually saying? Again, how does that work?
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by RazzBecause I'm all for going back to 1375 D.R. and no earlier. Not a fan of rebooting it all over, however. That's a lot of lore to throw out. I think we need to start back at 1375 D.R. but be more concise and respectful to everything written before.

quote:
Originally posted by TyrantYou're concerned about throwing out lore and being respectful to everything that has come before, and you are wanting to throw out everything after 1375. These comments and goals seem to be at odds.


I point to what I said above to answer that question.

That doesn't answer the logical disconnect. You value everything that came before. Everything includes the Spellplague, which you want to throw out. So, you don't value everything. It doesn't matter that you don't consider that part of the Realms. To the world at large it is, meaning it is included in everything. Mental gymnastics don't eliminate that fact.

It would be like me saying that I love all chocolate. Then saying that I don't consider white chocolate to be real chocolate, and that I hate white chocolate. To someone else, that last statement should invalidate the first because no matter what I think white chocolate is chocolate.

In the event that white chocolate actually isn't real chocolate, I hope anyone rushing to point that out will still get the point I am trying to make.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by RazzAs in, I think it should be mandated for authors and designers to do ALL their research prior to committing to a project. No ifs, ands, or buts.


quote:
Originally posted by TyrantThat's pretty slick implying that the authors aren't doing their job without actually saying it.



I just finished reading on WotC's site (or maybe it was ENWorld's) that VERY FEW of the authors/designers actually have enough love and care for the Realms to do their research before throwing out new Realmslore without paying heed to what may or may not contradict or retcon lore from previous work. I think it's very disrespectful to undo someone else's design work like that and very sloppy, too, and it also shows disrespect to the fans, as well. It's a rather shameful maneuver the comic book industry itself is known to wantonly do quite often, and I hate to see Realmslore be delegated on the same principles as comic book story-writing is done.


Like who? And who said this? What is their position at WotC?



I really wish I had the foresight to screenshot all the postings made by FR Designers themselves so that I can prove you wrong right about now, but I don't and I really don't have time (nor remember exactly when) I read those snippets. The Ed Greenwood one is right here at Candlekeep itself, so I don't need to dig for that, you can do a search on it.

I'm sure someone else here can vouch what I mean since such readings weren't obscure and weren't speculation, they were actual statements admitted by WotC themselves. The point is that 4E Realms was never the intended route they wanted to take the Realms to begin with. I don't know who to quote (my feeling is I read it from Richard Baker), but they had huge debates on this new Realms to the point where something made them all finally break and deal with it, reluctantly.

The shift from 1e to 2e brought about the ToT, which didn't really do that much damage to the Realms. The 2e to 3e shift was absolutely perfect. Yeah, we now have unprecedented effects like all races can be any class and new classes, but the Realms has plenty of lore left hidden and these inclusions can easily be written off as "It's always been like this, it's just rare or now being discussed." Point with the conversion from all those times was the designers didn't muddle too much and kept as much consistent as possible. Which I don't have a problem with. However, it's not like that with 4E Realms, but I won't go into detail on that. Everyone else already has by now. The point of that is, there wasn't this Doomsday Debate on the conversion from the past 3.5 editions, but 4e really made them all go into the "What, are you insane?!" category.

That right there says to me,"This is NOT the Realms we wanted, but had to do it" for whatever reason (of which was to please Hasbro and make money for Papa Hasbro).

If the very designers themselves want to treat the 4E Realms as that "unwanted child" they never wished they had to deal at all, then I have every right and reason to do so as well.


Here is what you said: "I just finished reading on WotC's site (or maybe it was ENWorld's) that VERY FEW of the authors/designers actually have enough love and care for the Realms to do their research before throwing out new Realmslore without paying heed to what may or may not contradict or retcon lore from previous work. " I put emphasis on the part that makes me think you shouldn't have any problem finding these quotes or telling me who said them because I am really curious as to which WotC employee would say that now.

As for the designers who's quotes you can't find or attribute, how many of them still work there on the Realms? That's a serious question, not sarcasm, as they have let go of a number of people in the last 4 years. Who do you want to blame? I imagine it's a fairly limited pool of potential candidates so you may as well quit blaming the faceless masses at WotC and start singling people out. There aren't enough people there for there to be faceless masses. Then I will find the quotes myself as I would like to read them, not that it will change my opinion because what's done is done.

As for proving me wrong, about what? What you said does not make sense to me. I asked you to clarify and explained why I think what you said doesn't make sense. I'm not out to prove you right or wrong. So, I guess you can try to prove me wrong about me asking a question... Seriously I have no idea what part of my post you are trying to disprove or why or what part is something that can or can't be disproven in the first place. I pointed out that in the interest of civility you may want to rephrase some things. I tried to explain why, to me, what you are saying has a logical disconnect. And then I asked who said what. Please, explain to me what is right or wrong about any of that.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code

Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13601 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2012 :  20:24:46  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If they do not do an 'alternate timeline' thing (which I still feel would be bad overall, despite my personal attraction to such a solution), then they HAVE TO backwards-engineer the 1e-3e Realms to take into account for the 4e lore, otherwise all we have is a mish-mosh of disjointed lore, which will just put more nails in FRs (and D&D's) coffin.

So, despite my dislike of a lot of 4e's material, I am willing to 'eat crow' (a little) in order to see FR become a healthy IP again. Sure its a compromise, but thats what business is all about.

If they do shunt 4e into an alternate timeline (I am 99% positive they won't just abandon it wholesale), then I think they stand to offend far more current customers then ones they may attract back (I do see tons of potential there as well, but thats so 'iffy' it can't be counted on).

However, we should all probably just 'wait and see' - it might be so amazing we won't have to worry about taking sides at all; we may be 'jumping the gun' with our animosity.

And so far they've done nothing but take steps in the right direction. They've admitted that 4e 'failed to meet the mark', and they have admitted they alienated much of the fanbase, and they have agreed to re-release not only old products, but ALSO release quite a bit of stuff we have never seen before - Ed's Realms!

So what if this is their solution - Two versions of FR; the published (to date) one, and Ed's original? Now where does everyone stand? Those people who absolutely refuse to 'compromise' in regards to 4e will still have a place to go. For the rest of us, we can pick-and-choose. Whats wrong with that? We didn't even see that one coming - they may have already found the perfect solution. They (apparently) aren't going to split the timeline at the Spellplague, they are going to split it way back to the pre-published Realms. I think that is brilliant!

Picture this - instead of a world where Cyric didn't deliver the 'killing blow', we get a world where Ed never sold his Realms to TSR - hows that for an alternate reality? They didn't split the Realms - they split Earth!

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 29 Jan 2012 20:28:21
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore

1338 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2012 :  20:44:09  Show Profile Send Mumadar Ibn Huzal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From listening and watching this video in which WotC folks talk about the new Realms amongst others, I would say that they won't go for alternate timelines and that they keep the Spellplague as canon (the last is literally said in the video). The vid is over an hour long, but there is a lot in the Q&A section worth listening to.
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Lily M Green
Learned Scribe

Australia
115 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2012 :  20:56:01  Show Profile  Visit Lily M Green's Homepage Send Lily M Green a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Rather than a complete reboot I do like the idea that's been touted regarding a diverging timeline.

Further back in the thread it was mentioned that the idea likely wouldn't be financially viable because you would effectively halve the number of consumers for a product, but I don't agree with that assertion. If a certain percentage of your potential buyers don't like the route you've taken a product down then they aren't going to buy it anyway, so an alternative timeline where the Spellplague didn't occur could potentially bring disenfranchised gamers back into the fold. Also, gamers playing in the post Spellplague Realms may also decide that they want to explore the alternative. Then, of course, there's the small matter of the 100 year gap between the Spellplague occurring and 4E kicking in, the alternate timeline could easily exist in those hundred years without interfering with anything written for 4E Realms. With the alternate timeline seemingly being something of a consensus here it does make me wonder if it will be considered.

With regard to actual game mechanics, well I see no reason why, with comprehensive ruleset conversion tables - by which I mean not just linear but non-sequential conversion tables that would allow conversion from 5E to 1E if desired - any lore edition can't be played with any ruleset.


Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy, and taste good with ketchup.

A Dark Alliance - Beyond Baldur's Gate

Edited by - Lily M Green on 29 Jan 2012 21:05:04
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