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Therise
Master of Realmslore

1265 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  15:47:19  Show Profile Send Therise a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

One, it's not personal so please don't take it as such.

Two, if the powers that be ARE looking at this then your opinions might hold more weight than you think. Espically if it becomes something that others rally behind in ernest.

Three, I don't think it's a mischaracterization of "you" as you've stated that it would take a HECK of a lot of changing and modification to include the Spellplague for you to purchase such supplements. So for you, it might just be "drop the spellplague or make it an alternate timeline or I'm out" sort of situation. Am I wrong in this? I was specifically stating that there is little bending on your part in a solution that might be achieved.


How do I -not- take "Again, it's Therise's way or the highway" personally? You're naming me by name, and attaching a misrepresentation to me.

Seriously Diffan, you crossed a major line.

4E Realms was awful, but it's water under the Boareskyr Bridge. Let's make 5E Realms truly shine!
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Therise
Master of Realmslore

1265 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  15:54:48  Show Profile Send Therise a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant

Why do they have to make it palatable for those who don't like 4E?

They don't, unless they want those customers back.

quote:
All the people who were missed are back?

Depends on when you set the branch point for the alternate timeline.

quote:
To put it in more personal terms, why do I have to get screwed to win you back over and why shouldn't I voice my objection to that idea?

You can't please everyone. Make your opinion known. I'll do the same.

4E Realms was awful, but it's water under the Boareskyr Bridge. Let's make 5E Realms truly shine!
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3418 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  15:59:31  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Therise

How do I -not- take "Again, it's Therise's way or the highway" personally? You're naming me by name, and attaching a misrepresentation to me.

Seriously Diffan, you crossed a major line.




May I offer my sincerest apologies? It wasn't mean in any way, shape, or form as a personal attack. It was an acknowledgement of your opinion that there are requirements of the next iteration of D&D to have/make/amend for you to purchase additional Forgotten Realms material. Is this or isn't this the case for you? For me, I can accept them producing infomation that I may personally find unnecessary or irreleveant but I still hope they produce that "as long" as they keep producing info about 1479 DR and later which includes the events of the Spellplague. So for me, it's a deal breaker if they go to an alternative timeline or reset the setting to a certain time fram. Those are my "Diffan's way or the highway" requirements and I'll stand by them.

Again, if I have crossed a line it wasn't due to any attempt to anger or attack you. And if I did so, then I apologize for that.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14387 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  16:10:42  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
First off, I am looking forward to whatever they do. We all should.

If you liked the old material, they are catering to you.
If you liked the old rules, they will be catering to you.
If you like the new rules, they will be catering to you
If you like the new setting, as of right now, they will continue to cater to you.

At what point did anyone at WotC tell anyone that a certain sub-section of the fanbase won't be supported? Hell! We should all be having a party together right now, not arguing.

I will have to agree with Therise on the Drama point - this is why in the other thread I stopped (aside from the fact I realized I was mistaken about my interpretation of things) - quibbling over who's opinion is right is a road we shouldn't keep going down.

I am a little saddened by the fact that the anti-4e crowd are not so willing to compromise as I would have liked, but I respect their opinions (especially since I agree with most of the reasoning behind those opinions). And I have been trying my damned hardest to champion the cause of the 4e fans, regardless of who's side I am on. Believe you me, its not easy.

This is a Forgotten Realms FANSITE!!! Can we just all forget about editions for awhile, and rejoice in the fact we are being promised a plethora of new Realmslore? If they live up to their promises, we are looking at a veritable Realms Renaissance.

Why in god's name are we still bickering?!

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3418 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  16:32:40  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

First off, I am looking forward to whatever they do. We all should.

If you liked the old material, they are catering to you.
If you liked the old rules, they will be catering to you.
If you like the new rules, they will be catering to you
If you like the new setting, as of right now, they will continue to cater to you.

At what point did anyone at WotC tell anyone that a certain sub-section of the fanbase won't be supported? Hell! We should all be having a party together right now, not arguing.



No one did, it's speculative. And I agree that it's interesting to see what they roll out with. They've (wotc) already stated there will be continued support for the Forgotten Realms. Personally, I hope they support EVERY aspect of the Realms, even parts that I'm not particularly fond of because someone else probably is. Even if they were to put out a supplement detailing Mulhorandi/Unther from 0 DR to 1385 DR and then show what's happened to that area AFTER they went into Abier, I'd be more interested and might even buy it even if the whole egyptian-theme isn't my cup of tea.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay


I am a little saddened by the fact that the anti-4e crowd are not so willing to compromise as I would have liked, but I respect their opinions (especially since I agree with most of the reasoning behind those opinions). And I have been trying my damned hardest to champion the cause of the 4e fans, regardless of who's side I am on. Believe you me, its not easy.


Not easy because you don't share the same views or not easy because of the resistance? Or Both? Believe you me, I've really tried to keep things civil and have attempted to mend bridges I possibly burned or burned by WotC. I'd like to think we're a better community now than we were 4 years ago.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay


This is a Forgotten Realms FANSITE!!! Can we just all forget about editions for awhile, and rejoice in the fact we are being promised a plethora of new Realmslore? If they live up to their promises, we are looking at a veritable Realms Renaissance.

Why in god's name are we still bickering?!



Im just not sure anyomre? But I can hope and pray things continue to get better with the next iteration of Dungeons and Dragons.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe

Canada
894 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  17:19:27  Show Profile Send Kilvan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think I could enjoy a new edition set after the spellplague, given that efforts are made to mend the "errors" created by said spellplague. This reconstruction is a great opportunity for novels and sourcebooks. The fate of Helm, Mystra and Mask are incoming, but I think many more good stories could be told.

I'd read a serie on the retaking of Thay by the renegade Red Wizards.
I'd read a serie on the resurection of the Drow Pantheon
I'd read a serie on the fall of the city of Shade (not the Shade themselves, but bring a stop to their current overwhelming power).

Maybe some devils are missing their former home in Myth Drannor too.

I said it before, but I really believe that alternate timelines would be a marketing suicide. We need a setting that will appeal to a maximum of fans, and allowing new lore/novels set pre-spellplague.


Oblivion loomed on every side, the offspring lived, basking in the realization that each moment could be the last moment.
--This was the beauty of chaos
--This was the beauty of Lolth
--This was the doom for all, but one

Quote from "Extinction"

Edited by - Kilvan on 23 Jan 2012 17:20:06
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sfdragon
Great Reader

2055 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  17:46:22  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
why are you still bickering??


but I don't want to see myth drannor as a surface dungeon again.

there are several other cities that could be used as such.

like NEverwinter for starters.... and maybe old plhan tooo.... and the ruins of zhentil keep and that other one...

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe

Canada
894 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  17:54:57  Show Profile Send Kilvan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm not, those are just examples of opportunities for good stories AND fix events that angered some fans. I do not suggest to bring everything back as they were, that would be like a simple reset, I'm saying that we need some construction, not just destruction (something 4e was really fond of).

I'm trying to go halfway here, because complaining about 4e isn't going to help, and WotC are probably not going to reset the Realms. Cynicism and indifference are our worse enemies here (that and us tearing us appart).

And for the record, the possibility of devils trying to take Myth Drannor back does not only make sense, I'm surprised it has not already happenned before the elves were able to secure their position there.

Oblivion loomed on every side, the offspring lived, basking in the realization that each moment could be the last moment.
--This was the beauty of chaos
--This was the beauty of Lolth
--This was the doom for all, but one

Quote from "Extinction"
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Apex
Learned Scribe

USA
229 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  18:04:22  Show Profile  Visit Apex's Homepage Send Apex a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay



At what point did anyone at WotC tell anyone that a certain sub-section of the fanbase won't be supported?



Didn't they already do this with the release of 4E? I think that is exactly what people are peeved about here.

As for why some of us don't consider 4E to be the Realms, a gaming world is much more than a map with familiar places and a similar pantheon of gods, it is the sum of all the characters, organizations, politics, and interactions. And with one fell swoop, 4E basically severed 80%+ of that.
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe

Canada
894 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  18:12:48  Show Profile Send Kilvan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Apex

Didn't they already do this with the release of 4E? I think that is exactly what people are peeved about here.

As for why some of us don't consider 4E to be the Realms, a gaming world is much more than a map with familiar places and a similar pantheon of gods, it is the sum of all the characters, organizations, politics, and interactions. And with one fell swoop, 4E basically severed 80%+ of that.



80%? Really?

Yes, many (most) mortal characters (humans) died of old age. Many immortal were killed. Many gods were destroyed. Many cities/region were changed forever. Counting all that, and let's say you could quantify it (which I doubt), 80% is nowhere near a reasonable approximation.

Again, cynicism will get us nowhere.

Oblivion loomed on every side, the offspring lived, basking in the realization that each moment could be the last moment.
--This was the beauty of chaos
--This was the beauty of Lolth
--This was the doom for all, but one

Quote from "Extinction"
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Apex
Learned Scribe

USA
229 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  18:16:51  Show Profile  Visit Apex's Homepage Send Apex a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan

quote:
Originally posted by Apex

Didn't they already do this with the release of 4E? I think that is exactly what people are peeved about here.

As for why some of us don't consider 4E to be the Realms, a gaming world is much more than a map with familiar places and a similar pantheon of gods, it is the sum of all the characters, organizations, politics, and interactions. And with one fell swoop, 4E basically severed 80%+ of that.



Did you completely ignore the part about "politics and interactions". That is where the bulk of the 80% comes from (and I am guessing 80% is conservative). The 4E Realms are as unrelated to the "old Realms" as 1912 United States is to 2012 United States.

80%? Really?

Yes, many (most) mortal characters (humans) died of old age. Many immortal were killed. Many gods were destroyed. Many cities/region were changed forever. Counting all that, and let's say you could quantify it (which I doubt), 80% is nowhere near a reasonable approximation.

Again, cynicism will get us nowhere.

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Kilvan
Senior Scribe

Canada
894 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  18:28:46  Show Profile Send Kilvan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's true that I've only read 2 novels post-spellplague, but those I've read felt pretty much like the Realms to me. Yup, Waterdeep took a hit, but it's politics remains the same and the "feel" of it is pretty similar. Yes, it changed, but not 80% of it. I won't try to approximate the %, I think it would be a very futile exercise.

Oblivion loomed on every side, the offspring lived, basking in the realization that each moment could be the last moment.
--This was the beauty of chaos
--This was the beauty of Lolth
--This was the doom for all, but one

Quote from "Extinction"
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe

USA
470 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  18:32:38  Show Profile  Visit Old Man Harpell's Homepage Send Old Man Harpell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan

I think I could enjoy a new edition set after the spellplague, given that efforts are made to mend the "errors" created by said spellplague. This reconstruction is a great opportunity for novels and sourcebooks. The fate of Helm, Mystra and Mask are incoming, but I think many more good stories could be told.

I'd read a serie on the retaking of Thay by the renegade Red Wizards.
I'd read a serie on the resurection of the Drow Pantheon
I'd read a serie on the fall of the city of Shade (not the Shade themselves, but bring a stop to their current overwhelming power).

Maybe some devils are missing their former home in Myth Drannor too.

I said it before, but I really believe that alternate timelines would be a marketing suicide. We need a setting that will appeal to a maximum of fans, and allowing new lore/novels set pre-spellplague.



I know I said I would stop posting here, but I will try my best to stay both constructive and on-topic.

While I obviously disagree that an alternate timeline would be the wrong way to go (my posts have said as much, of course), I agree that mending their errors is not only possible, but a good idea. The three examples you have given, the drow pantheon resurrection in particular, would be excellent baby steps in fixing the colossal damage they did. Given enough work and effort, as well as listening to what the players want, they can successfully mitigate, even reverse, some of the horrible things they did.

While I agree almost word for word with Therise's assessments of the way the Shattered Realms has impacted and almost destroyed what Ed offered us these many years ago, I differ in that I do believe it can once again rise to what he would have liked to have seen, and without a reboot. The main reason I have advocated a reboot is that I simply don't think Wizbro has got what it takes to make the needed repairs.

Tyrant raises some good points, particularly 'what would you keep the same?' I submit that the same question would apply in any 'Repaired Realms' scenario. For me personally? I would (albeit reluctantly) say that there should be few, if any, actual geographical revamps done. Now, they should give us all the maps. I don't know of anyone here who would disagree with that. All of them. The whole planet should have a 'Page 231' (preferably much larger than the old Page 231) done to reflect the New Toril's continent outlines at the very least.

I would acknowledge that Wizbro's dragonborn-shoehorning required something drastic (and we should accept that some repairs will also of needs be drastic as well), thus the eradication of Unther and the near-fatal mauling of Mulhorand would likely stand as is. No, I'm not thrilled, but at least there was some point to it. In the same vein, Returned Abeir, like it or not, landed where it did - we can't just suddenly move it, likely not without another RSE to further muck things up.

But things can be done to make it palatable to as many people as possible. Can we bring the slaughtered gods back? You bet we can - we know people want Eilistraee, Helm, Vhaeraun, and so forth to be returned, so start with them. Just Do It.

Was there a point to just allowing the Seven Sisters to all be pointlessly slaughtered or expire from old age? No, there actually wasn't...so now that Wizbro knows this, bring them back, one way or another. People, unlike continents, require no RSEs to be returned to their ideal place in the Realms.

Is leaving Zhentil Keep to just sit and become a mouldering ruin something we're fond of? Not to me - the Zhentarim were supposedly the premier Bad Guys...now they're just a really bad caricature of themselves. That too, can be fixed.

And how all of this, you say? Well, now is the time to make some constructive use of that yawning 100-year gap that flabbergasted us (because let's face it - we could have handled the Sellplague if there had been, at best, ten years difference and not a whole century - I could have, anyways).

What plans were made in these 100 years? Who thought ahead? Who saw what was coming down the pike? Did a community of Halruaans phase itself out just before the Blue Fire trashed their kingdom, then phase back to rebuild it? Did Laeral Silverhand actually get trapped in some sort of stasis when the Sellplague ripped through Faerun, and she was only believed to be gone? Will she be pissed about Khelben's demise, or will she find a new...uh...Staff? Why does Qilue Veladorn have red hair after being resurrected? Is it echoes from her actual human parents?

And hey - did the Maztican Calendar abruptly end with no explanation in 1385 DR? Come on - you saw that one coming, you had to. Why did it end like that?

Fixes can be done, and we know they can. I am just tiredly resigned to the fact that Wizbro is not only not up to the task, but doesn't really know what they're doing, to say nothing of not knowing what it is we, as a collective Realms community, actually want.

- OMH

Edited by - Old Man Harpell on 23 Jan 2012 18:34:58
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe

Canada
894 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  18:50:24  Show Profile Send Kilvan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yup, that's my point. We (well, "they" actually) just need to worry about not overdoing it. Just resurrecting everyone would be lame, veeery lame. Khelben was my favorite character (he still is in my campaigns), but considering the way he left, it would be kinda awkward to just bring him back. Whatever changes they make, what I want is details (aka, a standalone novel AT LEAST) about them.

You want to bring back Eilistraee? Ok, who wouldn't? But do it well, not just a paragraph in the next campaign setting. Even the whole Tyr-Helm story could have been good if it had been well told. Ok, maybe not good, but you get my point.

Oblivion loomed on every side, the offspring lived, basking in the realization that each moment could be the last moment.
--This was the beauty of chaos
--This was the beauty of Lolth
--This was the doom for all, but one

Quote from "Extinction"
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe

USA
470 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  18:58:49  Show Profile  Visit Old Man Harpell's Homepage Send Old Man Harpell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan

Yup, that's my point. We (well, "they" actually) just need to worry about not overdoing it. Just resurrecting everyone would be lame, veeery lame. Khelben was my favorite character (he still is in my campaigns), but considering the way he left, it would be kinda awkward to just bring him back. Whatever changes they make, what I want is details (aka, a standalone novel AT LEAST) about them.

You want to bring back Eilistraee? Ok, who wouldn't? But do it well, not just a paragraph in the next campaign setting. Even the whole Tyr-Helm story could have been good if it had been well told. Ok, maybe not good, but you get my point.


Absolutely! If some thought is put to this, they have the chance to tell some really good stories. Hell, ESdB says to keep our eyes open for the 'Helm' thing (my only concern is that it involves, exclusively, words like 'Nook' and 'Kindle'), and I am very much looking forward to that.

So much could be done, and all it would take is for Wizbro to decide they're going to do it.

- OMH
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sfdragon
Great Reader

2055 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  19:18:24  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan

I'm not, those are just examples of opportunities for good stories AND fix events that angered some fans. I do not suggest to bring everything back as they were, that would be like a simple reset, I'm saying that we need some construction, not just destruction (something 4e was really fond of).

I'm trying to go halfway here, because complaining about 4e isn't going to help, and WotC are probably not going to reset the Realms. Cynicism and indifference are our worse enemies here (that and us tearing us appart).

And for the record, the possibility of devils trying to take Myth Drannor back does not only make sense, I'm surprised it has not already happenned before the elves were able to secure their position there.



they also fixed the mythal so that shouldnt happen again.

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe

USA
586 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  20:19:35  Show Profile  Visit Tyrant's Homepage Send Tyrant a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Therise

quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant

Why do they have to make it palatable for those who don't like 4E?

They don't, unless they want those customers back.

Sure. But, making it palatable and destroying it outright (or sitting it in a corner away from the other kids) aren't the same. Change and growth are a far more positive step. What I meant was, if those who dislike 4E will only return with the Spellplague and 4E completely ignored or stuck in an alternate timeline, why should they try to appease that mentality when it will obviously cost them current customers? I am not commenting on the validity of anyone's opinion here. I have mine and you have yours, neither of us is right or wrong. You have your reasons for wanting what you want and I am not questioning them. There is a line that would get me to quit too and if it happens I may feel the same as you. What I am saying is why would the company try to appeal to someone who doesn't show much interest in meeting them halfway in a solution that doesn't have a foreseeable and potentially quite negative outcome? This did not work out very well for them last time. I think the post Spellplague setting can be adjusted without much trouble to meet people halfway, and in the meantime they will hopefully open up the back catalog to purchase and create some new material for the older eras. I think Harpell and EsdB have the right of it, which is not to say I think you are wrong. You want what you want, just as I do.
quote:
quote:
All the people who were missed are back?

Depends on when you set the branch point for the alternate timeline.


Who makes that call? The main complaint seems to be the Spellplague, but I know those other issues are sticking points for some people too. Do they reset back to the appearance of Shade? The ToT? Pre-Gray Box? I'm not trying to be antagonistic here, this is a real problem that I haven't seen an answer to.

Here is the situation as I see it, and no this won't be short. There are 2 primary groups of Realms fans (in very broad terms), those who are still buying products (for this purpose it doesn't matter if they are taking them out back and burning them 5 minutes later if they are still buying them) and those who aren't. To be 100% crystal clear on that comment, that is in no way meant to be a judgement call on either group nor do I personally judge anyone based on that criteria. The former is a quantity that WotC can take a pretty good guess as to it's current size based on sales data. The latter becomes tricky because it is relatively unknown who stopped at which editions (and for what reasons) and who jumped on board later, not to mention we don't know how much TSR sales data they actually have (I assume a lot of it, but who knows). However, they do have relative sales to compare to get a broad idea. Right now there are people who left that are taking a second look and watching to see what happens to determine if they come back. The pro "stuff before the Spellplague" is quite vocal, but they aren't unified beyond their desire to be rid of the Spellplague. That's step one, we got that, but what's step two and how does it gain more than it loses? There are different answers to my question I posed above (the "which point in the timeline question"). These people who are taking a second look likely feel they have been burned once (ToT, Shade, Spellplague, Drizzt, whatever) so I believe their tolerance for what they perceive to be bad moves on the part of WotC is likely quite low. If they come back I believe it won't take much for them to leave again as they have already shown that they are more than willing to leave (that is not a negative, everyone has a line) if something they dislike enough comes down the line.

So, I see two things happening with a reset/alternate timeline because of the above. The first is that whoever doesn't get the reset they want may decide they are done for good and curse the name WotC until their dying breath because now they have been burned twice and some people will think they are quite justified for doing so and will thus take their advice to never give WotC a cent. Pro 4E people might be right there with them, who knows. In a hobby with a large word of mouth component this is not a desirable outcome. On the flip side, if there is no reboot, then is anyone going to take someone complaining about that seriously when they find out no one said there was going to be a reboot? It's like complaining that Star Trek isn't Star Wars. Why would anyone think that it is or have an expectation that it would suddenly become so? The other thing that will happen is that the designer will be walking on egg shells because they know one "wrong" step and there goes a chunk of customers. Now, I can see how that sounds appealing, I really can. But, it leads to stagnation and that's death. Things have to happen. They don't have to be big, but they have to happen. Characters have to die or it becomes a joke. Places have to change. The Spellplague was an overdose of this thought process, I agree, but on some scale change has to happen or you have no story.

Markustay, you are quite an optimist and I hope that you are right about WotC coming through this time. I too am optimistic about that, or trying to be anyway.

Kilvan/Old Man Harpell, those are the types of solutions I am hoping will happen. As Erik said, they can smooth off the rough edges if they try. I know it won't be enough for some people, but that's their choice and they are entilted to it. That isn't a slam, I have no interest in trying to force anyone to like anything and nothing good ever comes out of it. If anyone truly hates the Spellplague to the point that they won't return if it isn't somehow negated/overturned/shoved into a parallel dimension/whatever, and then that doesn't happen, I don't fault them for not returning. They like what they like and I don't think that's unreasonable.


Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code

Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest
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Therise
Master of Realmslore

1265 Posts

Posted - 24 Jan 2012 :  15:54:55  Show Profile Send Therise a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant

...What I am saying is why would the company try to appeal to someone who doesn't show much interest in meeting them halfway in a solution that doesn't have a foreseeable and potentially quite negative outcome?...

Why the hell should I bend over backwards and "meet them halfway" when I still have yet to see change favorable to what I want? These are not relatives, and I am not in an intimate relationship with them. They are a company that makes a product. Either I like it and become a purchasing customer, or I don't.

Why would they want me back as a customer? Well, let's see. Considering that I was loyal to the Realms until the Spellplague idiocy, and purchased a -lot- from them every year for decades, I suppose that counts for nothing?

These new customers, half of which sound vaguely disgruntled to me, have been purchasing the "new Realms" for three years. Compare that to my decades of purchases. What is the purchase of one 4E FRCG and a couple novels to the years and years of purchases I made? Honestly, from my perspective, they'd better pull their heads out of the sand and do some real customer analysis.

quote:
Who makes that call? The main complaint seems to be the Spellplague, but I know those other issues are sticking points for some people too. Do they reset back to the appearance of Shade? The ToT? Pre-Gray Box? I'm not trying to be antagonistic here, this is a real problem that I haven't seen an answer to.

I have stated my preference earlier. I'm not going to get into a repetitive back-and-forth guessing game on this, where you continually tell me I'm wrong based on your feelings.

WotC has, and will, make the call on the Realms. I refuse to speculate on whether or not they will listen to what any customer wants. That is for them to figure out, and honestly they'd better to a much better job this time around if they want former customers to come back. Speculation without data and making choices on what "sounds good" internally did not serve them well.


4E Realms was awful, but it's water under the Boareskyr Bridge. Let's make 5E Realms truly shine!

Edited by - Therise on 24 Jan 2012 15:57:10
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14387 Posts

Posted - 24 Jan 2012 :  16:53:13  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
{sigh}

@Diffan - because taking the 'middle ground' hasn't seemed to work-out well as 'peace maker' - it makes me a pariah. I am arguing with both sides (four sides? I am losing count..), and not just here.

At least over on the Paizo boards, the anti-4e people - for the most part - are looking forward to 5e, and not 'out of spite'. They are the 'rebels' - the folk that left their safe ports and sailed to new shores (maudlin... I know...) They are not as loyal to Paizo as everyone thinks (most of them) - they are loyal to QUALITY PRODUCTS. You give them what they want, and they'll be back. I've been 'slumming' (sorry ) over there for the past couple weeks, and most of the PF people are eagerly anticipating what WotC brings to the table this time around. They are gamers, who just want stuff they can use. Most of them don't hate WotC - they hate what 4e did to D&D and FR. Everyone is a winner with a revitalized D&D, and they know this.

Its the 4e people that are showing the most hatred toward 5e, IMHO. I don't blame them - its like a slap in the face. If they don't tread carefully with 5e (and continue to support 4e), they could lose them. There is just no way of knowing if the amount of new fans that come back will out-number the 4e fans they will lose (without seeing some hard numbers concerning the current groups).

And once again, I think an alternate timeline is akin to sticking the 4e people 'in a corner', where they 'won't break anything'. Its not right, no matter how I feel about the 4e Realms. It wasn't right when WotC did it to us four years ago, and its not right now.

They really should do the circa 1386DR thing, but now I'm just harping on it. It is an elegant solution, when you really think about it. ANY lore, form ANY era, is applicable. But whatever.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 24 Jan 2012 16:55:52
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe

Canada
894 Posts

Posted - 24 Jan 2012 :  17:03:52  Show Profile Send Kilvan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
the folk that left their safe ports and sailed to new shores (maudlin... I know...) They are not as loyal to Paizo as everyone thinks (most of them) - they are loyal to QUALITY PRODUCTS. You give them what they want, and they'll be back.



Off-topic, but I wonder what Paizo thinks about that kind of discussion on their boards. Candlekeep is not selling a product, so here this kind of talk is not a problem. 5e could be the end of Paizo if it is very good.


Oblivion loomed on every side, the offspring lived, basking in the realization that each moment could be the last moment.
--This was the beauty of chaos
--This was the beauty of Lolth
--This was the doom for all, but one

Quote from "Extinction"

Edited by - Kilvan on 24 Jan 2012 17:04:35
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Therise
Master of Realmslore

1265 Posts

Posted - 24 Jan 2012 :  17:22:54  Show Profile Send Therise a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

...Its the 4e people that are showing the most hatred toward 5e, IMHO. I don't blame them - its like a slap in the face...


It's more like karma, IMO.


4E Realms was awful, but it's water under the Boareskyr Bridge. Let's make 5E Realms truly shine!
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Hawkins
Great Reader

USA
2130 Posts

Posted - 24 Jan 2012 :  17:46:16  Show Profile  Visit Hawkins's Homepage Send Hawkins a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

@Diffan - because taking the 'middle ground' hasn't seemed to work-out well as 'peace maker' - it makes me a pariah. I am arguing with both sides (four sides? I am losing count..), and not just here.

. . .

They really should do the circa 1386DR thing, but now I'm just harping on it. It is an elegant solution, when you really think about it. ANY lore, form ANY era, is applicable. But whatever.

For what it is worth, MT, I am actually behind you and Erik on the middle ground issue. I am just not as eloquent as either of you. I do not want you to feel that you are alone on this issue, even if you are doing most of the talking.

Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)

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Faraer
Great Reader

3302 Posts

Posted - 24 Jan 2012 :  18:00:19  Show Profile  Visit Faraer's Homepage Send Faraer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Are we conflating 4E D&D with Realms-2008 again? The former has a definite group of players whose wishes for a form of D&D it meets. It's much less certain that there's any substantial base of people who actively like Realms-2008 and want to see more published for it (against its originally stated design philosophy), compared to fans of the Realms published over the previous 20 years. (As well as the collapse of Realms discussion on the wizards.com boards, the couple of Realms threads active at the moment on the EN World boards, for instance, seem to be even less in favour of the post-Spellplague Realms than Candlekeep.)

The three 4E Realms sourcebooks were targeted at D&D players in general -- the strategy was explicitly to avoid the separation where there would be Realms game product customers as such. If there was a line of 4E Realms sourcebooks, maybe there would be a base of Tyrant's 'current customers'.

(Help, it's a time warp!)
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Therise
Master of Realmslore

1265 Posts

Posted - 24 Jan 2012 :  18:03:38  Show Profile Send Therise a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer

Are we conflating 4E D&D with Realms-2008 again? The former has a definite group of players whose wishes for a form of D&D it meets. It's much less certain that there's any substantial base of people who actively like Realms-2008 and want to see more published for it (against its originally stated design philosophy), compared to fans of the Realms published over the previous 20 years. (As well as the collapse of Realms discussion on the wizards.com boards, the couple of Realms threads active at the moment on the EN World boards, for instance, seem to be even less in favour of the post-Spellplague Realms than Candlekeep.)

The three 4E Realms sourcebooks were targeted at D&D players in general -- the strategy was explicitly to avoid the separation where there would be Realms game product customers as such. If there was a line of 4E Realms sourcebooks, maybe there would be a base of Tyrant's 'current customers'.

Emphasis above (bold italic) is mine. I agree completely. While the 4E rules have been enjoyed by many, it's far less certain that the 4E Realms was similarly liked by a large group of customers.

Additionally, I didn't mind the 4E rules change and kinda liked many parts of it. However, I thoroughly disliked the 4E Realms. I think WotC really needs to consider things like that as well. I can't be the only one in that particular camp.


4E Realms was awful, but it's water under the Boareskyr Bridge. Let's make 5E Realms truly shine!
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3418 Posts

Posted - 24 Jan 2012 :  18:29:49  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay


At least over on the Paizo boards, the anti-4e people - for the most part - are looking forward to 5e, and not 'out of spite'. They are the 'rebels' - the folk that left their safe ports and sailed to new shores (maudlin... I know...) They are not as loyal to Paizo as everyone thinks (most of them) - they are loyal to QUALITY PRODUCTS. You give them what they want, and they'll be back. I've been 'slumming' (sorry ) over there for the past couple weeks, and most of the PF people are eagerly anticipating what WotC brings to the table this time around. They are gamers, who just want stuff they can use. Most of them don't hate WotC - they hate what 4e did to D&D and FR. Everyone is a winner with a revitalized D&D, and they know this.


I don't think we're looking at the same boards. Half of them broke into "Ding, dong, 4E is dead" type of posts while the others often say that they're happy with Paizo and have no intention of looking back. Obviously there are some that look forward to D&Dnext, but often enought they're ones who support multiple settings and games and don't look at it like a Pi**ing contest between the two.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay


Its the 4e people that are showing the most hatred toward 5e, IMHO. I don't blame them - its like a slap in the face. If they don't tread carefully with 5e (and continue to support 4e), they could lose them. There is just no way of knowing if the amount of new fans that come back will out-number the 4e fans they will lose (without seeing some hard numbers concerning the current groups).


I admit that I was a little ticked off but really, I have no reason to be. They'll be producing 4E until at least next year and then I'll always have those books. I'm intrigued at what they'll produce in the future and I hope to make it a good game with playtesting. But I think most of the ire is directed at Mike Mearl's comments about design philosophy for the next iteration of D&D. Espically when those comments could've been used with ANY edition of the game, not just 4E.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay


And once again, I think an alternate timeline is akin to sticking the 4e people 'in a corner', where they 'won't break anything'. Its not right, no matter how I feel about the 4e Realms. It wasn't right when WotC did it to us four years ago, and its not right now.



There we agree 100% on. And I'd also like them to put more emphasis on all eras of play, not just the Spellplague or the pre-Time of Troubles, or 1372 DR. ALL ERAS OF PLAY.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."

Edited by - Diffan on 24 Jan 2012 19:17:03
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