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Lady Swiftstrike Assassin
Seeker
73 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 14:56:02
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With 5e on the horizon, do you think that WotC should remove the Netheril retcon?
Netheril was not mentioned in the OGB... but then, all of the sudden (to sell the Arcane Age supplements, perhaps?) we are told that the history of the Realms was not as we were lead to believe, but that an ancient society of 'Arcanists' cleaved mountains in twain and flew around with nigh-god-like power...
So what are your thoughts on eliminating the Netheril retcon?
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 15:06:30
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I personally do not think that anything that has been added (via retcon or other means) should be excised from the Current Era Realms (CER). No matter that there are some that hate these additions, there are some that also love them. Also, we saw how much that pissed people off with the advent of 4e, when they decided to remove what some deemed as "un-Realmsian" cities/states/continents from the Realms. And whether or not Netheril was mentioned in the Old Grey Box (OGB), it is by far one of the most native-to-the-Realms entities that I have seen.
EDIT: And by the way, I think that we here at the 'Keep should stop trying to figure out what bits we want to be removed from the Realms (esp the 4e Realms); instead we need to look at how we can move forward (whether it be 5 or 500 years) and heal the wounds that have been created. Trying to retcon things out will just create more wounds. And that is not what the Realms need, in 5e or any other edition. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through The vorpal blade went snicker-snack! He left it dead, and with its head He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer) * Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules) * The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules) * 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work: * Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing) * Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing) * Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing) * Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Edited by - Hawkins on 11 Jan 2012 15:11:12 |
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Lady Swiftstrike Assassin
Seeker
73 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 15:12:35
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What do you mean by native-to-the-Realms, Hawkins? |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 15:37:57
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No. Netheril has to remain... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7966 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 16:19:19
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See retcon.
This has been discussed before within the keep, many times in many scrolls. So-called "Pre-RSEs" are established in the background lore and do nothing to contradict or invalidate the current setting. They might introduce historical depth but they have little impact on the present, aside from ruffling up the historians and archeologists.
Netheril was indeed given name and the very briefest of descriptions (ancient civilization of immense magical power, somehow destroyed, now just piles of ruins in a magical desert-wasteland) by Ed as just one of those interesting oddities in the Realms. More of an excuse to have a big dangerous desert full of old ruins (populated by magical monsters and treasures) to entertain players near the Heartlands with some Indiana Jones playstyle, I think. Most of the Arcane Ages Netheril lore was established after the "present" Realms setting had already moved through the Time of Troubles and late 2E, it was all additive, entirely fabricated - yet it did nothing to invalidate the existing setting. The only retcons it inflicted would be whatever modifications individual DMs needed to implement after they'd already homebrewed their own Netheril-era lore.
Netheril was well-received and has since grown into a cornerstone of Realmslore; it's the origin of the Shadovar and tons of other things which have directly affected the "modern" Realms. For anyone who was introduced to Realmslore circa-3E or later, Netheril is an accepted and uncontested part of the setting. It's now so popularly entrenched that removing it would be an unwise decision. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 11 Jan 2012 16:28:34 |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 17:31:32
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quote: Originally posted by Lady Swiftstrike Assassin
What do you mean by native-to-the-Realms, Hawkins?
Mulhorand, Unther, and Maztica where all considered to not be native-to-the-Realms by the 4e FR design team (and many fans) because they were all basically real world cultures transplanted to the Realms. So, in their ham-fisted (IMO) changes they decided to remove these areas and replace them with places transplanted from Abeir.
That is another thing, since they decided to make Abeir a separate world from Toril (from 2e on, I think, Abeir-Toril was just the name of the planet itself), I think we deserve some better detailing of not only Toril, but Abeir as well. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through The vorpal blade went snicker-snack! He left it dead, and with its head He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer) * Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules) * The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules) * 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work: * Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing) * Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing) * Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing) * Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 17:51:11
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Netheril is indeed mentioned in the Old Grey Box, and had been established long before then as an origin of ancient magic spells and items. The rough outline of the narrative in slade's boxed set is as Ed always had it: it's not so much retcon as addition of some dubious concepts and details (while infamously failing to use Ed's notes), which later design work (especially in Lost Empires of Faerūn) worked to quietly fix -- for instance, establishing High and Low Netheril and de-emphasizing the flying cities. |
Edited by - Faraer on 11 Jan 2012 17:55:44 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 18:00:42
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Netheril was created by Ed, before the Realms was published. It is not a retcon.
Lots of things created by Ed were not in the OGB. That doesn't make them retcons.
And lots of things were created by later authors and designers, and seemlessly plugged into the setting. If prior lore is not being contradicted, it's not a retcon -- and the failure to mention something does not mean it doesn't exist. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 18:34:07
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Netheril must stay.
that undead soceity must go |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction Magister's GAmbit http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 18:38:45
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quote: Originally posted by sfdragon
Netheril must stay.
that undead soceity must go
I agree on the first, but disagree on the latter. Szas Tam needs to have a little taste of total power. Also, Thay's the only undead-infested realm in Toril...so it's unique, in a twisted way. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 19:27:53
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Thay is pretty alright with Szass Tam as a ruler. I just wish the Red Wizards were actually still there with him, under his control or whatever other reason. Now they're just a bunch of merchants and junk peddlers. I suppose it would be easily fixable, but the two powers I would like back are the Zhentarim and Red Wizards of Thay. The Zhents would be easy, just have Manshoon move into Darkhold. The Red Wizards, I'm not so sure how to fix that, but I hope they do. I remember a time when it was terrifying to fight a Red Wizard. Netheril is somewhat ok IMO, but they probably shouldn't have annihilated Zhentil Keep and the Citadel of the Raven and I'm still not sure how I feel about them "owning" Sembia. |
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Lady Swiftstrike Assassin
Seeker
73 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 21:08:49
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quote: Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Netheril was created by Ed, before the Realms was published. It is not a retcon.
Lots of things created by Ed were not in the OGB. That doesn't make them retcons.
And lots of things were created by later authors and designers, and seemlessly plugged into the setting. If prior lore is not being contradicted, it's not a retcon -- and the failure to mention something does not mean it doesn't exist.
But Netheril does not appear in the OGB... So, in a nutshell, the Realms of 1357 DR were detailed, then later, we were told that things that happened in the past were not as they were originally presented. How is this any, less of a retcon than saying that in the ancient past the gods warred with primordials? |
Edited by - Lady Swiftstrike Assassin on 11 Jan 2012 21:10:19 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 21:16:04
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quote: Originally posted by Lady Swiftstrike Assassin
quote: Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Netheril was created by Ed, before the Realms was published. It is not a retcon.
Lots of things created by Ed were not in the OGB. That doesn't make them retcons.
And lots of things were created by later authors and designers, and seemlessly plugged into the setting. If prior lore is not being contradicted, it's not a retcon -- and the failure to mention something does not mean it doesn't exist.
But Netheril does not appear in the OGB... So, in a nutshell, the Realms of 1357 DR were detailed, then later, we were told that things that happened in the past were not as they were originally presented. How is this any, less of a retcon than saying that in the ancient past the gods warred with primordials?
In fact, there are several references to Netheril in the Old Gray Box (1E Realms). Read the section on the Lonely Moor / Darkhold.
They couldn't print everything they had eventually planned for Netheril in the first Realms sourcebook, obviously. They still have stacks and stacks of Ed's lore that hasn't yet seen the light of day.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 21:21:56
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quote: Originally posted by Dennis
quote: Originally posted by sfdragon
Netheril must stay.
that undead soceity must go
I agree on the first, but disagree on the latter. Szas Tam needs to have a little taste of total power. Also, Thay's the only undead-infested realm in Toril...so it's unique, in a twisted way.
uUMM NO I did not mean thay.
the one that came to toril from returned Abeir.
that undead soceity.
Thay is awesome for evil
Emince of aruant neeeds to go away. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction Magister's GAmbit http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7966 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 22:00:30
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I half-wonder if one day somebody will inherit Ed's lore and publish it as a compiled Edmarillion saga ... |
[/Ayrik] |
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Thrasymachus
Learned Scribe
195 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 22:08:26
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Bah. I never liked the Shades or Netheril...
... but keep 'em, simply because I want to see more flesh on the bone. |
Former Forgotten Realms brand manager Jim Butler: "Everything that bears the Forgotten Realms logo is considered canon". |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 22:31:17
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You know what? I was going to reply, here, but I've decided not to. We've played this game before, and I'm not playing it again. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Lady Swiftstrike Assassin
Seeker
73 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 22:40:25
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Wow! You are partially correct, Therise! Netheril is mentioned, twice, in the OGB!
So what about the Sarruhk? And Imaskar? HUGE retcons there... what do you guys think? Should Imaskar and the Sarruhk/Creator Races be eliminated from the 5e Realms, due to their place in the continuity being retroactive?
quote: Originally posted by Therise
quote: Originally posted by Lady Swiftstrike Assassin
quote: Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Netheril was created by Ed, before the Realms was published. It is not a retcon.
Lots of things created by Ed were not in the OGB. That doesn't make them retcons.
And lots of things were created by later authors and designers, and seemlessly plugged into the setting. If prior lore is not being contradicted, it's not a retcon -- and the failure to mention something does not mean it doesn't exist.
But Netheril does not appear in the OGB... So, in a nutshell, the Realms of 1357 DR were detailed, then later, we were told that things that happened in the past were not as they were originally presented. How is this any, less of a retcon than saying that in the ancient past the gods warred with primordials?
In fact, there are several references to Netheril in the Old Gray Box (1E Realms). Read the section on the Lonely Moor / Darkhold.
They couldn't print everything they had eventually planned for Netheril in the first Realms sourcebook, obviously. They still have stacks and stacks of Ed's lore that hasn't yet seen the light of day.
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Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 23:03:32
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quote: Should Imaskar and the Sarruhk/Creator Races be eliminated from the 5e Realms, due to their place in the continuity being retroactive?
Why should they, Brace? And how are they retroactive? |
Edited by - Imp on 11 Jan 2012 23:05:55 |
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Lady Swiftstrike Assassin
Seeker
73 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 23:12:39
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Brace? Are you referring to me, Imp? |
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Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 23:14:26
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Why aren't you answering my questions, Brace? |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3285 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 23:30:15
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It's sock puppet show time.
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"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding." Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 23:35:57
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quote: Originally posted by Brimstone
It's sock puppet show time.
What? |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7966 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 23:42:34
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I believe you're miscasting your Power Word: Retcon spell.
Adding new content - even if it's historically additive material which fills in gaps in the lore - is not a retcon.
Asserting something is canon, then later adding canon which blatantly contradicts it, while either fabricating improbable reasons why new-canon-is-true old-canon-was-a-lie or simply pretending the old canon never existed ... that's a retcon. Not writing history, but rewriting it. Retcon itself is a newish term, people used to say Orwellian.
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[/Ayrik] |
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Lady Swiftstrike Assassin
Seeker
73 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2012 : 23:45:27
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Oh, cool! By that definition, the whole Abeir/Toril twin worlds thing is not a retcon.
Thanks, tiger!
quote: Originally posted by Ayrik
I believe you're miscasting your Power Word: Retcon spell.
Adding new content - even if it's historically additive material which fills in gaps in the lore - is not a retcon.
Asserting something is canon, then later adding canon which blatantly contradicts it, while either fabricating improbable reasons why new-canon-is-true old-canon-was-a-lie or simply pretending the old canon never existed ... that's a retcon. Not writing history, but rewriting it. Retcon itself is a newish term, people used to say Orwellian.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7966 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2012 : 00:00:27
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Obviously there's little point in continuing if we refuse to agree on terminology. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2012 : 00:11:04
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Typical of Brace. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2012 : 00:16:34
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quote: Originally posted by Ayrik
Obviously there's little point in continuing if we refuse to agree on terminology.
Agreed. We've travelled this road before. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2012 : 01:24:55
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quote: Originally posted by Lady Swiftstrike Assassin
So what about the Sarruhk?
Errr... Hsssthak of Isstossef in the 1e Lords of Darkness tome. He wasn't originally referenced as a sarrukh, but it's noted as the tome within which the sarrukh [unnamed] first appeared. It wasn't until the release of Serpent Kingdoms, which later clarified that. He's mentioned in the "Mummies" adventure on pg. 34, and then is more fully described on pages 80 and 81. His identification as a sarrukh occurs on pg. 96 of Serpent Kingdoms.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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