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Valmon
Acolyte
Brazil
11 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Jan 2012 : 18:47:39
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****THIS TOPIC CONTAINS SPOILERS REGARDING EMPYREAN ODYSSEY SERIES, U R WARNED***
Hello,
I was wondering... is Lolth really chaotic as she always says?
I mean... Her society and Priesthood is very organized... and even her way of ruling seems to me lawful... for example.... If you are a priestess of Lolth... and u keep yourself in her full favors...you can expect help from her... House Baenre for example... the house rules for 2 thousand years as first house of menzoberranzan... and it was never betrayed by Lolth herself... a matron mother cant atack another house without authorization from Lolth or her yachools...
Thats all seems very Lawfull to me... now Cyric is a example of a true Chaotic God... u cant expect anything from Cyric... he can atack and destroy everyone... follower or not... as exemplified when he betrays his own priest in Empyrean Odyssey series... Lolth would never do such a thing....
so I ask again... Is Lolth really a chaotic God? Would we discover in future novels that Lolth pretends to be Chaotic to futher her own agenda?
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Her web covers all
and the World is her prey |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2012 : 19:18:51
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Well two points.
Alignment is based of world view. Chaos vs. Laws. Law means sane laws, often a law allowing slavery was considered chaotic for example.
To succeed in Lolthian community one often breaks the law to gain rank, the trick is not to get caught.
Oh a further point, Lolth deciding on whom to turn into a Drider, reward on punish a follower has no set way of being understood. Her decisions appear to be based on whim, a rather chaotic. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2012 : 19:37:17
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| Lolth is known for being very capricious, though, sometimes granting or withdrawing her favor for no readily apparent reason. And "law" in drow cities is frequently based on "you can't do this -- unless you can do it without getting caught." |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2012 : 00:44:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Lolth is known for being very capricious, though, sometimes granting or withdrawing her favor for no readily apparent reason. And "law" in drow cities is frequently based on "you can't do this -- unless you can do it without getting caught."
Most of the deity-writeups for Lolth make this apparent, with her nature and capriciousness being noted as inherent in her chaotic mindset.
I've always liked this aspect of her power, though, as it has both a subtle and in-your-face quality of divine support for characters that wouldn't always be found in your regular run-of-the-mill deities.
There are few divine-character elements, I believe, that could foster intriguing game-play than a deity like Lolth suddenly withdrawing her support for a drow priest's power at an inopportune moment. That particular facet of her conduct was readily made apparent in the few instances of the WotSQ books where drow who were initially unaware that Lolth had gone Silent, awkwardly found their spells without power when confronted by conflict and/or the requisite knife-at-their-backs. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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Valmon
Acolyte
Brazil
11 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2012 : 01:59:43
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Quote:
"Lolth is known for being very capricious, though, sometimes granting or withdrawing her favor for no readily apparent reason."
I desagree...
They always describe Lolth as above... but when this happens? not in the novels... I read the "war of the spider queen", "The lady penitent trilogy" and drizzt novels...
In none of them... you will find a priestess losing her favor for no apparent reasons... u can always find a reason for her actions..
For example... when Matron Devir lost her favors for unwilling savin a bunch of Deepgnomes while atackin another drow enimies.
A drow never must kill another drow to save a deep gnome or a surface elf... even if this killin give some kind of advantage for the drow..
And even if a Drow priestess loses her favor in such a way, she is able to recover her favors... Lolth allows her priestess to try to recover her favors with penances... mainly if the priestess discover why she lost the favors in first place...
What I mean is... a Game master cannot randomly withdraw a drow priestess favors... unless this priestess have done something Lolth dispised...
Can you find a part in any novel where a priestess of lolth lost her favors randomly???
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Her web covers all
and the World is her prey |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2012 : 02:28:28
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I think you are mixing how you want a DM to play Lolth, and explaining to player why an event occurred, the source books and those novels.
As to the DM he can roll a dice to determine Lolth's whim, without any rules or guidelines because none exist.
Clearly per the rules the GM can withdraw favor from any if deity is listed as Chaotic.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2012 : 02:58:15
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Lolth was described as a CE-aligned demon-goddess in 1E, and though she's been removed, reborn, revised several times her alignment is one detail which has never changed.
DMs are free to do whatever they wish. Perhaps you can justify your Lolth's non-CE behaviour by claiming some pretender is imitating Lolth? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2012 : 03:10:43
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| D&D chaotic doesn't mean acting randomly (chaotic stupid). As a demoness, Lolth's chaotic nature is perhaps more clearly seen in her interactions with other demons in the Abyss than in the society she finds convenient to foster in the drow, which obviously has both chaotic and lawful parts. My sense of how demonic society works as compared to devilish is informed by the extensive infernal politicking in Gary Gygax's novels. |
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2012 : 04:14:41
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| The drow have their rules, but they have little order. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2012 : 04:34:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Valmon
Quote:
"Lolth is known for being very capricious, though, sometimes granting or withdrawing her favor for no readily apparent reason."
I desagree...
They always describe Lolth as above... but when this happens? not in the novels... I read the "war of the spider queen", "The lady penitent trilogy" and drizzt novels...
In none of them... you will find a priestess losing her favor for no apparent reasons... u can always find a reason for her actions..
For example... when Matron Devir lost her favors for unwilling savin a bunch of Deepgnomes while atackin another drow enimies.
A drow never must kill another drow to save a deep gnome or a surface elf... even if this killin give some kind of advantage for the drow..
And even if a Drow priestess loses her favor in such a way, she is able to recover her favors... Lolth allows her priestess to try to recover her favors with penances... mainly if the priestess discover why she lost the favors in first place...
What I mean is... a Game master cannot randomly withdraw a drow priestess favors... unless this priestess have done something Lolth dispised...
Can you find a part in any novel where a priestess of lolth lost her favors randomly???
It's been a while since I've read any of them, but I'm pretty sure that in at least one Drizzt book, there were priestesses who lost Lolth's favor for no reason. I seem to recall that happening to at least one matron mother, during one of Menzoberranzan's many struggles for one of the top eight spots. In fact, if memory serves, one matron mother lost Lolth's favor without even knowing it, simply because Lolth like the opposing House more.
And yes, Lolth does sometimes allow her priestesses to try to regain her favor... But that still strikes me as more chaotic than lawful. It's giving pardon for an offense if the offender does something creative enough. And this is a reaction to someone losing favor -- they receive no warnings beforehand, it just happens. That, too, fails to come across as lawful. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2012 : 09:18:36
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Favoring one priestess over another, ordinary and matron mothers alike; watching in amusement some drow cities crumble to pieces, while helping others stay intact; treating some loyal worshippers with indifference, while taking a rather keen interest in others… Pretty much sounds chaotic to me. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2012 : 16:40:25
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Matron Malice Do'Urden dishonored the Way of Lolth on many occasions, apparently because the matron was concerned about keeping things comfortable and immediately secure within her House. And yet, Lolth allowed Malice and House Do'Urden to thrive for centuries. On the very day that Drizzt was born, Matron Malice broke her promise to give the thirdborn son to the Spider Queen. And yet, Lolth allowed Malice to rise to the rank of eighth in Menzoberranzan, joining the Ruling Council, and later even granted Malice the successful use of the Zin-carla ritual.
When Matron Malice met her end, the fall of House Do'Urden was popularly blamed on her sacrilegious son, Drizzt. But upon further review, it would appear that she did it to herself, over the course of hundreds of years of bending or breaking the rules. And Lolth let her do it, too.
Now ask yourself, "Why?"
Sure, Lolthite civilization has rules and laws. But that doesn't necessarily make Lolth, herself, very lawful. She's got something else going on in her mind other than law and order. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2012 : 17:33:29
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It seems to me that Malice didn't so much break her promise, as she no longer had a third son, after her secondboy killed her elderboy.
Liriel and the rothe farmer is an interesting example of priestesses losing or gaining favor with her. |
"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2012 : 18:08:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Valmon
Can you find a part in any novel where a priestess of lolth lost her favors randomly???
I think one could make a pretty good argument for "Lolth's favor being granted without good reason" by taking a good look at Liriel Baenre.
Liriel was essentially given the status of a Chosen of Lolth, and she wasn't particularly evil nor was she particularly devout (certainly not like a high priestess). Further, Liriel's enemies who were devout Lolthites often would get slapped down by Lolth for interfering with Liriel. Even up to the point where Liriel is rejecting Lolth and trying not to use the extra powers granted her, Lolth happily keeps her as a Chosen until the "final straw" so to speak.
We know the reasons for this, after the fact. But at the time, Lolth's clergy was baffled. They were jealous, confused, angry, and lusted after that power in murderous fashion. And truthfully, Lolth really couldn't have known the exact outcome, so she was essentially screwing around with everyone for kicks.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 07 Jan 2012 18:10:15 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2012 : 01:46:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Aulduron
It seems to me that Malice didn't so much break her promise, as she no longer had a third son, after her secondboy killed her elderboy.
Menzo tradition is to ritually sacrifice the third born son--not just a third living son. Per tradition, Malice would've had to have promised to do such. And that is a strict policy. It doesn't fly that you can promise to Lolth that you'll whack X if you find it convenient, but you reserve the right to change your mind if circumstances warrant and you'd rather do something else. You'd better follow through.
But instead, after Drizzt was born, the Elderson died, and Malice realized that she was about to be two sons short in no time. So she panicked.
Her two younger daughters equivocated on the issue, suggesting that Malice should stay her hand. But Briza was a literalist, calling on her mother to keep her promise to give her thirdborn son in sacrifice. Even though the firstborn son Nalfein was dead, Drizzt had still been successfully born, and so he was still the thirdborn son. Nalfein's death did not nullify that, in any way.
It only put Matron Malice in a weaker position than what she had been planning on.
So Malice halted the ritual killing. Instead of giving any son whatsoever in sacrifice, as promised, she allowed her son killed by fratricide during battle to suffice as a substitute.
Malice promised to kill her thirdborn son in sacrifice. But she did not kill her thirdborn son in sacrifice. That's breaking a promise. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 08 Jan 2012 02:01:57 |
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2012 : 02:22:23
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I admit it's been years since I've read those books, and I know, from reading two other Salvatorre boards that you know your poop when it come to this subject, but I still believe that is a legitimate loophole (Chaotic, I know).
Isn't every Matron Mother is required to sacrifice their thirdboy at birth? When one house takes out another, nobody is allowed to speak of it, or even about the destroyed house. It's as if they never existed. I believe the same is true of one noble assassinating another. |
"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2012 : 02:32:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Aulduron
I admit it's been years since I've read those books, and I know, from reading two other Salvatorre boards that you know your poop when it come to this subject, but I still believe that is a legitimate loophole (Chaotic, I know).
From a lawful standpoint, no.
But from a chaotic one, perhaps. Lolth certainly seemed to have let Malice get away with it for quite a while.
So it's the city leaders who seem to have a penchant for law & order, while their goddess does not.
quote:
Isn't every Matron Mother is required to sacrifice their thirdboy at birth? When one house takes out another, nobody is allowed to speak of it, or even about the destroyed house. It's as if they never existed. I believe the same is true of one noble assassinating another.
That's all fine and good when dealing with fellow mortal drow.
But Lolth knows, even that which is not talked about. And holding one's tongue does not wipe her memory.
I believe that eventually Lolth had enough of Malice's repeated use of such questionable loopholes. She ceased to be entertaining, and she failed to kill Drizzt via Zin-carla, so Malice had to go. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Entromancer
Senior Scribe
USA
388 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 00:48:03
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Most of Lolth's priesthood consists of females, correct? (I am basing this guess entirely off of the Dark Elf Trilogy and Legacy of the Drow story arcs, so forgive me if I'm wrong. :))
Given her nature as a chaotic deity, would she go so far as to deem Jarlaxle a Chosen? He breaks the norms of the Matronly rule, assisted in the downfall and covert takeover of Luskan...I could even ask the same of Drizzt. In killing Pook, he likely unwittingly initiated a struggle among the other guilds to fill the power gap (especially after Regis left the position as the guild leader). A point in The Hunter's Blades I liked was the possiblity that Drizzt was in Lolth's favor. It would provide an interesting direction for Salvatore to take in further developing Drizzt.
As far as Lolth's laws in drow society, would she directly lay down the laws? I could imagine her watching the earliest Matron Mothers "experimenting" (if you will) with different sets of laws, codes of conduct etc. and rewarding one Matron. This would lead other Matrons to adopt that rewarded Matron's ideas in regards to ruling drow society. Then at her whim, Lolth could punish the previously rewarded Matron.
This might send the others scrambling to find some way to gain Lolth's favor. Finally, once a Matron came up with some form of government that amused Lolth she might reward that Matron. In that case, the new form of government might be kept in place for X number of years before Lolth struck out against the Matron that originally devised it. |
"...the will is everything. The will to act."--Ra's Al Ghul
"Suffering builds character."--Talia Al Ghul |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 01:03:56
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| Entromancer Current version and last one does have female only Clerics, the very limited FR 1st edition might have had male Clerics (1st Edition rules indicated no male Cleric was known to be above level 6 IIRC). It also should be noted, that FR did not always fully comply with Core or Splat rules. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Captain Grafalcon
Learned Scribe
Brazil
129 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2012 : 18:52:49
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| Lolth is quite chaotic, in the series War of the spider queen we can see some examples: Quenthel Baenre was her entirely life what any drow priestress could expect from a faithful servant, yet she wasn´t rewarded with the spider queen´s rebirth. Halistraa, in the other hand was one of the most chaotic characters of the book( delivered herself to a diferent god when was convenient,betray allies more than once), and many readers could believe she was the chosen one. The Baenre may rule the city for centuries, but what are centuries for a god? There are many plots and schemes in drow novels, all of them inside a "Lawful" society.Lolth feeds from all of this. |
"Surely you recognize that armies carrying banners are almost always thieves—until they win."
Jarlaxle, mercenary leader of Bregan D'aerthe. |
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jerrod
Learned Scribe
157 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2012 : 04:52:00
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| With lolth there are exceptions to every rule.such is the essence or chaos.remember matron beanre said lolth told her years before that she wanted malice on the ruling council. And both zaknalfien and drizzt were responsible for this...inadvertently.lol....the favor of lolth is no guarantee of a long life.just a powerful life.and keep in mind that lolth treasures the sacrifice of her own clergy most and other elves and drow secondly. That means that eventually she expects her preistesses to fell her...and relishes the thought! Her web encompasses all...and the world is her prey... |
I haven't been here in years but I used to be DARKFLAME MILLITHOR(DROW ARCHMAGE of wildmagic |
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Lolth alligment
