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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Dec 2011 : 18:15:05
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This is not a haters thread. I love elves, I love reading about the Faerunian versions and I love using them in my games. If you hate elves, that's acceptable, but this isn't the thread to talk about it.
What I want to discuss if the main flaw I see in Elven society. Now, when I say flaw, this is a good thing from a storytelling perspective. I'm glad the Faerunian elves have such a flaw, otherwise they'd be boringly perfect.
Hypocrisy.
Time and time again they remind humans the horrible things they do with magic. And yet, in the distant past, the elves were just as guilty. Look at the sundering, thousands of their people and others died and the continents actually moved! They ripped a piece of the upper planes onto the prime material for Selune's sake!
Look at the Crown Wars. Untold destruction over millenia, and an entire branch of the species got cursed and transformed! Narfell and Raumathar's little dust-up pales in comparison.
The humans are merely short-lived, not irresponsible. The elves, both in story and in game characteristics, are in no way mentally superior to humans (except for the sun elf boost to intelligence, which puts them above most of the other elves anyway, and still three subspecies of elves have minuses to intelligence!). The only reason the humans of Faerun never point this out is that they don't know about all that. They were around, certainly, but they had to build up to civilization. They didn't spring out of Faerie with that knowledge, so many millenia ago.
Thoughts?
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Edited by - Eladrinstar on 04 Dec 2011 18:15:40
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2011 : 00:52:14
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I beat this topic to death over at the WotC boards, and have said plenty in the past here as well. When you deal with an Orc, you know what to expect... its the Elves you can't trust. 
This is why they were 'passed over' as the Race of destiny - they lack humility. They honestly believe they should be in-charge, ALWAYS. As for sources... hmmmm... the Internet isn't big enough to list them all.
IMHO, of course. Now if I was an Elf, I was simply state it as fact, since I would always be right, because Elves are never wrong, even when they disagree with each other. When that happens Crown Wars break-out, worlds get sundered, entire species get annihilated, and races get cursed for the sins of their fathers.
But they still won't be wrong, because they are elves, and have the right to make every other creature on a world suffer. When someone moves into their territory, they just drown whole cities (they did this to Jhambdath and the Nethrease... and gods know how many others). Women, children... everyone... the innocent along with the Guilty. They are Elves, and they do whatever the Frak they want. At least Orcs, Drow, and Red Wizards take slaves - Elves just wipe-out entire communities... sometimes entire nations.
And if there are examples of Elves 'being nice' to their neighbors, there is good reason for that as well. They practice the old adage "keep your friends close, and your enemies closer". They are gathering Intel for when the day comes when they have to kill you. I have to wonder just how many Forgotten Realms lie in ruin because of events they set in motion. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Dec 2011 00:58:06 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2011 : 01:34:20
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The irresponsible, criminal, wasteful, terrible things described in ancient elven histories - the same things they caution humans against - were lessons perhaps learned through mistakes, costly and permanent mistakes ... and now elves feel (perhaps rightly) that such mistakes must be avoided whenever possible. The problem is that they've also accomplished the grand, epic, and impossible in the past (elven style) - now the weight of their own history inflates their pride to inhuman loftiness. Other races are inferior, at least insofar as not yet having been around countless millennia to do much of particular interest.
I wouldn't think hypocrisy is the most accurate word, arrogance is better. Elves judge non-elven races as bumbling children who aren't capable of making complex decisions with the proper long-term view of things. A fact which isn't helped much by elven lifespan exceeding human empires and dynasties. Even drow, while viewed as N'Tel'Quessir abominations who shame the Seldarine, are still (by elven perspective) viewed as appreciating the profound wisdom of long-term consequences which are unfathomable to humans.
I think a problem is that elven psychology is somewhat monolithic. To elves it's all-or-nothing, the mindset is a complete package and there's really no room to quibble over intermediate details, plus their thinking probably ossifies somewhat after a few centuries ... whereas humans aren't (yet) as sophisticated as elves, and each individual is forced to piece together and balance whatever psychological fragments are made available throughout his hectic short little life.
So now it seems that elves will impede younger races from committing the most heinous and unforgivable mistakes at any cost. Unfortunately, even when that cost is higher than the cost of the mistakes. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 05 Dec 2011 01:38:10 |
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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2011 : 01:37:19
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| I've just always been annoyed by their chaotic good alignment simply not manifesting itself in the story. They aren't chaotic (especially the sun elves) and they certainly have never acted any more good than the humans have. Alignments are tricky beasts, though. I try to ignore them whenever possible, alignments are usually pointless unless there is a Paladin involved, or the Outer Planes of the Great Wheel are visited. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2011 : 16:00:37
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| they are not that different than humans, great disasters are most remembered in history and entire people are blamed for what some group does |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2011 : 03:40:40
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They have zero remorse - thats my problem with them. They never take responsibility for any of the atrocities they have committed. Take the Drow for instance - THEY CREATED THEM. They have no one to hate for that but themselves.
Elves may be guilty of many of the same things humans are (RW and fantasy history), but their age, knowledge, and power have elevated the level of depravity exponentially. We humans are mere novices at evil compared to the Elves.
Orcish legend has the right of it - the Elves grabbed all 'the good land' for themselves, from the very beginning; they never had any intention of sharing the multiverse with others. You get in their way, something bad happens to you, usually disguised as an 'act of nature'.
Remember the hard lessons learned by the early Comyrians. Remember Mondar Bleth. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2011 : 04:10:58
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| I have issues with the elves as well and Markustay you couldn't have stated it better. While I loved Elminster in Myth Drannor, the actions of some of the elven houses reminded me of politics or actions of drow houses. Only real difference was skin color and some are living in the elven capital and some in the Underdark. On a different note, been playing Overlord: Raising Hell on PS3 lately and I had a rather comical, maybe fun idea to add to my drow based campaign: Going to have the PC's play as fodder goblinoids charged with setting up a lair and raiding the surrounding surface elven woods. You know, burn a village or two down, light the forest and some elves on fire, fun times. :) They have it coming anyways, those tree hugging hippy snobs! haha |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2011 : 04:24:04
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My favorite quote of Ed's, taken from The Annotated Elminster =
"Elves ARE monsters"
And YES, I do tend to quote it out-of-context, but its still true, regardless.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2011 : 06:34:00
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| Should the people in Calimshan feel remorse for what the Shoon Imperium did? (99 percent of them don't know anything about it), or ordinary Thayans for Szass's crimes? The information about the Sundering comes from elven historians, they don't express any pride or remorse about it, just what happened |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2011 : 21:54:59
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| More to the point, it was only a small group of elves who have done horrible things- the Vyshaan come to mind, and that was just a very few families, mostly the Vyshaan clan themselves. The rest of their kingdom eventually became as horrified at what they were doing as all the other kingdoms. Same goes with the Ilythiiri. A few rotten apples always spoil it for the rest. And then they ALL have to live with the results. I'm inclined to thing they would prefer if the rest of the world just forgot it ever happened. But that doesn't mean they will. Most elves try to prevent such mistakes from being repeated. Why else do you think the Staryms tried to assassinate their own Coronal? He was trying to move in a new direction, and they didn't like it. And they paid for their arrogance. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2011 : 00:00:57
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How do we know the elves collectively do not feel remorse for these things?
Do commoner elves even know these things occurred? Even for long lived species things millenia in the past are not necessarily common knowledge. An elven farmer still spends most his their time farming not learning about long gone history.
Of those who do know, has a poll been conducted? "Was it wrong to destroy Narfell? Yes, no, maybe?" I don't think we can make such a generalization because we do not know how elves in general feel about these events.
However, I would imagine in the minds of many elves other races are inferior, and their lives are worth less than that of an elf. Beings have a tendency to view themselves as superior, especially when they have what they would consider superior qualities. To elves that sympathize with organizations like the Eldreth Veluuthra they would probably think the horrible things elves have done to others were unfortunately not successful enough. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2011 : 01:19:51
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All of us orcs know elves are evil *G*
The discussion strikes me as foolish. Elves like other races clawed there way up to being a respected and sometimes feared race. The orcs know it, the kobolds and goblins know it. The Drow still not signed on and humans, some like them and others will kill the tree hungers.
Oh before moderators get real upset, personal pain level high. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2011 : 22:17:08
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MrH has a good point. Not all of them might even know about some of those atrocities. Many are, as he said, simply living out their lives trying to survive, and may not even CARE what their ancestors some ten millenia ago did to another race. It's in the past, and likely has little bearing on their personal lives. That being said, most elves DO have a strong sense of their heritage, and might think of it in the same patriotic vein that we think of wars fought against "evil" countries in the past. They might even believe that the wars and other acts were justified. Much as many people currently believe that wars against foreign nations with very different religions are justified- just as a hypothetical example, and not to use any actual wars, countries, or such. Cultural relativism applies here, in that when one culture does something they feel is right or morally justified, who gets to judge if they are right or wrong? And if the opposing culture does the same thing, are they right? It's like asking whether it's okay for a woman who is raped to be forced to marry her attacker. Depends on the culture involved, and its socially acceptable codes of behavior. Elves are no different.
Note- that last example is a real one, but is used ONLY to illustrate the idea that a culture might accept something as okay even if others feel it is objectionable or wrong. No personal jusgements or opinions are included therein.... |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2011 : 00:28:32
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Where is LK for some great Elven propaganda!
Elves are Chaotic Evil!
Keep fighting the GOOD FIGHT Markus!
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"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2011 : 01:50:50
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Elves are no more evil than anybody else.
They just have the capacity for more destruction
than most of the other races due to High Magic
and their overwhelming pride, and their feelings
of superiority. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2011 : 04:39:28
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Elves from Tolkien's Middle Earth and Moorcock's eternal multiverse predated and inspired those in Gygax's D&D and Greenwood's Forgotten Realms. These earlier elves are just as arrogant, condescending, and interfering as their Realms counterparts; the difference is that their hypocrisy is more internalized, they believe themselves objective while being influenced by their own racial bias.
The hypocrisy of the elves in the Realms seems to be more of a social expectation, they're arrogant and interfering simply because that's what proper elves have always done and it's what they are expected to do. Sort of a racial version of those meddling Harpers. To me, D&D elves seem more like spoiled children who've been handed everything; they're pretty and agile, have sharper senses, make better stuff, they're unchallenged at magic, archery, and stealth (in all sorts of multi-class combos) ... of course they think humans are clumsy, slow, ugly, stupid, and useless incapable oafs because in many cases it's exactly true. Complicate by flexing the boundaries over every corner of PG-13 as multitudes of authors have impressed their mark into Realms elven canon. These elves all just a buncha brats who seriously need to be smacked down.
The elves of the other worlds have actually seen ancient history and known companions who fell in those great wars of past ages, their cool technology/magic is honed over millennia of constant struggle. Some are desperate and see humans as potential allies in their genocidal wars, others have fought these wars against the humans ... some are losing, some are winning, the costs of their Pyrhic victories are so terrible that some prefer to let their own race become extinguished. These are worthy elves, they have earned their cool gear, their arrogance, and their superhuman (inhuman) capabilities. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 08 Dec 2011 04:47:53 |
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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2011 : 05:35:17
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| Those attitudes do seem to be changing. This seems most noticeable in Moon Elves after the end of the Retreat. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2011 : 00:58:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Eladrinstar
Those attitudes do seem to be changing. This seems most noticeable in Moon Elves after the end of the Retreat.
To quote General Akbar from STAR WARS Return of the Jedi: "IT'S A TRAP!" |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
Edited by - Brimstone on 09 Dec 2011 01:00:41 |
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Elven Hypocrisy: Discuss.
