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Ozreth
Learned Scribe
188 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Nov 2011 : 04:04:06
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The Realms, in general, seem to be right in the middle of the dark/light fantasy spectrum. While often light hearted, beautiful, and awe inspiring, it can often become gritty, heavy, and unsettling.
Is there room for the amount of grit you see in stores like a song of ice and fire? What about rape? The murder of children? incest? etc etc.
Would you want to run you realms this way? Would you want to play in these realms?
I tend to lean towards no, but will definitely though some heavier things in here and there.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2011 : 04:26:00
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| I am no fan of gritty. It can work for some stories, but on the whole, I don't want it in the Realms. Some settings work for gritty stories, and some don't -- I feel that the Realms is not really the place for gritty tales. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2011 : 05:13:52
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| Real life is gritty, some of that is reflected in my Realms. My players have long outgrown their shining paladins and big squared chins, although they still look forward to a little mustache-twirling melodrama from my villains. Many of the NPCs of power in my Realms - nobles, royalty, clergy, even other heroes - are corrupted, or corruptible, or at least such is a common impression among the little people. The lower classes endure hard lives, peasants and serfs toil endlessly, most thieves need to steal and mug and sometimes murder victims for a living, warriors expect to die every day, wizards and priests constantly face problems (ranging from discrimination and attack to being mobbed by desperate beggars) ... most people don't have conveniences such as aquaducts and sewers, those who do usually live in teeming cities which often verge on the threshold of plague. Strangers - especially those with foreign ways - are automatically scrutinized with suspicion, even people from familiar states are usually thought of as "enemies" and automatically assumed to be vile treacherous scum. People who aren't educated in magic tend to view it with superstitious fear, accusations of witchcraft and fiendish pacts are frequently made (though most often in hushed angry whispers). Even heroes sometimes encounter hostility, the people (great and small) are so used to a live of barter, feudal hierarchy, and hard work that they assume heroes will exact some kind of price, that they're trading one form of tyranny for another. Young bravos constantly challenge my heroes, or require a demonstration of heroic prowess before believing the unbelievable tales they've heard. Monsters (human and otherwise) apply all sorts of craven tactics against the good guys, ranging from slander and framed crimes to allying with each other or simply going underground to wait until the annoying heroes leave their turf before resuming their usual activities. |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2011 : 06:07:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
... It can work for some stories, but on the whole, I don't want it in the Realms. Some settings work for gritty stories, and some don't -- I feel that the Realms is not really the place for gritty tales.
What Wooly said.
If I want gritty settings, that's what Sigil-based PLANESCAPE campaigns are for. Or even just adventures in the Dread Domains.
Heck, the MIDNIGHT campaign setting is based around the concept of the "grittiest" campaign setting you can possibly have. Evil has won and good has no hope other than to hold on to what little it has left. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 30 Nov 2011 06:12:01 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2011 : 07:15:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Ozreth
Is there room for the amount of grit you see in stores like a song of ice and fire?
Sure, if not quite of the same kind. Some of the gritty details that are a fact of life in ASoIaF can be ameliorated by magic in GURPS. And not only death can pay for life.
But easier and more accessible magic is not only a good thing. It means that the bad people have access to it as well, after all.
I've featured blood magic and the (potential) sacrifice of children for magical power in my games. Priest of Bane drained the energy of enemies to heal himself. When a PC needed to be healed, the priest suggested that they use one of the orphans that they were rescuing. After all, they were not useful to anyone and the PC still needed to get them home.
quote:
Originally posted by Ozreth
What about rape?
Warfare without it is unrealistic. During times of war, enormous law enforcement is needed to prevent troops from engaging in rape. Even with modern sensibilities and a ratio of MPs to combat troops that is higher than at any time in history, the incidence of rape is still far higher in conflict zones than anywhere else in our world. With armies that don't even have dedicated MPs and leave such matters up to individual commanders, well, you get a lot of it.
In general, I find it more morally repugnant to portray a horrific thing in a way that underplays its wretched nature than to have unpleasant events occur in game. That is, I'd rather show warfare as an ugly, terrible thing in a game and thus encorage players playing 'good' characters to do what they can to bring it to an end than I'd portray a sanitised version of war. Heroes are, in my opinion, far more heroic when contrasted against mud and grime than when they are presented in miraculously clean uniforms in a war that leaves pretty corpses and no cripples or mentally scarred victims.
quote:
Originally posted by Ozreth
The murder of children?
Sure. The PCs have killed children. They were burning a town filled with supplies and used as a port in the invasion of Unther and the priests of Anhur there had their families there.
quote:
Originally posted by Ozreth
incest? etc etc.
I can't remember any specific instance in my game, but I certainly would not blink at including it. As a matter of fact, I don't find it a dark subject matter at all. Assuming all parties are adults and are engaging in mutually consensual acts, I'd be a bigot if I presumed to judge them.
quote:
Originally posted by Ozreth
Would you want to run you realms this way? Would you want to play in these realms?
I do and I would. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2011 : 07:27:00
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I read gritty stories, but I don't want the Realms to be peppered with them. They may exist, but at a minimum. And of course, at the hands of capable authors, preferably those who've written non-Realms gritty novels. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Light
Learned Scribe
Australia
231 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2011 : 11:07:28
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| I like gritty stories, movies, games, comics whatever. I like my material dark and serious and wish the realms was reflective of this. Enough with making jokes in the middle of a ferocious melee. I wince every time, every time that Bruenor gleefully join the fray muttering insults and jokes while he goes to work on the nearest goblin. Enough! Killing is serious business and should not be portrayed lightly. But yeah, all those things you mentioned Ozreth - rape, murder of children, incest etc. - I would like to see them incorporated into the Realms. All that said, I highly doubt the Realms is going to suddenly undergo a massive change in which the dark underbelly of society is thrust into our faces. It will forever continue to fluctuate between light and dark, constantly standing half in the shadows. |
"A true warrior needs no sword" - Thors (Vinland Saga) |
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Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2011 : 14:03:31
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I can agree that it isn't needed to portray in high detail or shove the gritty into peoples faces.
BUT the Realms are a world with evil organizations, evil races, demons and devils, evil GODS. It's perfectly understandable that there will (and must) be gritty. Not as the focus of the setting or story, but as a natural part. And I would be more angry or confused if there would be no gritty (even a little) in the Realms, because the Realms are supposed to be a real world, not a Fairyland with candy growing on trees and friendly animals. What, people can kill each other but not rape? That's absurd and unrealistic. There are drow cities in the Realms. That means there is gritty. It's your choice if you will make a game in a drow city. Or an authors choice if he will write about a drow city. If he do, he can of course avoid going into detail, but he shouldn't ignore that it's there, either. |
Edited by - Imp on 30 Nov 2011 14:08:38 |
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MalariaMoon
Learned Scribe
324 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2011 : 14:18:31
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| I think the Realms is malleable enough to accommodate gritty; in fact in can handle just about any tone you want to impose on it (well done Ed and other authors). At times my Realms campaigns have been grim and gritty, at others whimsical and even farcical. Even swashbuckling, let's make light of the business of killing can be quickly turned on its head when the one slain is a friend or innocent. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2011 : 14:25:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I read gritty stories, but I don't want the Realms to be peppered with them. They may exist, but at a minimum. And of course, at the hands of capable authors, preferably those who've written non-Realms gritty novels.
Abercrombie  |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Varl
Learned Scribe
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2011 : 14:39:32
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Gritty is not for me. I have no desire to portray the uglier side of humanity and demihumanity just to say I set the mood for a scenario. Heh. I think I can do that by describing the region the PCs are in well enough that I don't have to get into describing rape, incest, sodomy, etc to get the point across that these creatures are evil.
For example, if I want a scenario where rape is the focus, I'll have a woman come out of a building with a torn dress or smock, pleading for help, emphasizing that something obviously horrible has just happened to her and the PCs had better help, but the actual act always stays subliminal and suggested. Now she could say what happened to her to get the adventure/investigation underway, but I won't have her describe it in gritty detail. Same for any other ugly, "gritty" event that may occur in the game. |
I'm on a permanent vacation to the soul. -Tash Sultana |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2011 : 14:50:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Light
I like gritty stories, movies, games, comics whatever. I like my material dark and serious and wish the realms was reflective of this. Enough with making jokes in the middle of a ferocious melee.
I'm not so sure about that. I think one of the things that make the FR novel line stay in the 'business' is that it almost always has something to offer for everyone... Changing the entire line into a gritty or dark fantasy [sub-]genre is a huge risk I don't think they're [at the moment] willing to take. Besides, if one wishes to read gritty stories, they can turn to Paul's, which, though may not be as gritty as Brent Weeks's and Stephen King's, still offer a fair dose of grittiness. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2011 : 15:45:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Light
I like gritty stories, movies, games, comics whatever. I like my material dark and serious and wish the realms was reflective of this. Enough with making jokes in the middle of a ferocious melee. I wince every time, every time that Bruenor gleefully join the fray muttering insults and jokes while he goes to work on the nearest goblin. Enough! Killing is serious business and should not be portrayed lightly. But yeah, all those things you mentioned Ozreth - rape, murder of children, incest etc. - I would like to see them incorporated into the Realms. All that said, I highly doubt the Realms is going to suddenly undergo a massive change in which the dark underbelly of society is thrust into our faces. It will forever continue to fluctuate between light and dark, constantly standing half in the shadows.
I agree with you and I disagree with you at the same time. I feel that gritty stories require a certain humor to them so as not to become overbearing. I find that people who are around death a lot do tend to either crack under the weight of it or develop a gallows humor as a way of dealing with it. Still, it's a fine balance. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2011 : 15:56:17
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
... It can work for some stories, but on the whole, I don't want it in the Realms. Some settings work for gritty stories, and some don't -- I feel that the Realms is not really the place for gritty tales.
What Wooly said.
If I want gritty settings, that's what Sigil-based PLANESCAPE campaigns are for. Or even just adventures in the Dread Domains.
Heck, the MIDNIGHT campaign setting is based around the concept of the "grittiest" campaign setting you can possibly have. Evil has won and good has no hope other than to hold on to what little it has left.
Ditto
The great thing about the Realms is that you can 'do gritty' very easily, or you could do humorous, Horror, dramatic, Intrigue... whatever. That is the beauty of it - everything exists somewhere, and usually in many somewheres, giving us a plethora of choices all within the same setting. There is no setting you can't somehow replicate in one area or another in the Realms (or, at least, on Toril).
As a side note, I think the new (4e) Realms are a bit grittier, but that doesn't mean you can't run a 1e/2e/3e style campaign still - you just have work a bit harder to find areas that aren't so gritty. At the same time, its YOUR setting, and the feel it has has a great deal to do with how the DM portrays it.
As I get older, I find I like 'dark' more, but I'm starting to lean toward a steampunk-dark (Gothic) setting in that regard. I still prefer my High-fantasy worlds to have a more well-rounded feel (like FR, Greyhawk, Mystra, etc), because it is more realistic. No world should ever be all of one thing - that gets old fast. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Nov 2011 15:58:20 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2011 : 18:21:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As a side note, I think the new (4e) Realms are a bit grittier, but that doesn't mean you can't run a 1e/2e/3e style campaign still - you just have work a bit harder to find areas that aren't so gritty.
Using 'gritty' to describe a style of play where even the beginning characters can magically knit their flesh together with an act of will and even getting stabbed in the guts only means a slightly longer rest period is to divorce it entirely from any meaning I'm familiar with.
Gritty fantasy is fantasy where actions have realistic consequences and the nitty-gritty of survival, disease, infection and other 'unheroic' things is not brushed over. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2011 : 19:06:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Imp
I can agree that it isn't needed to portray in high detail or shove the gritty into peoples faces.
BUT the Realms are a world with evil organizations, evil races, demons and devils, evil GODS. It's perfectly understandable that there will (and must) be gritty. Not as the focus of the setting or story, but as a natural part. And I would be more angry or confused if there would be no gritty (even a little) in the Realms, because the Realms are supposed to be a real world, not a Fairyland with candy growing on trees and friendly animals. What, people can kill each other but not rape? That's absurd and unrealistic. There are drow cities in the Realms. That means there is gritty. It's your choice if you will make a game in a drow city. Or an authors choice if he will write about a drow city. If he do, he can of course avoid going into detail, but he shouldn't ignore that it's there, either.
See, here's my thinking... Yeah, we have evil organizations, and thus there is plenty of bad stuff that happens. And that's plenty realistic. But, like Varl illustrates, you can have the negative things happen without focusing on them. As long as you don't really focus on it, it's not gritty. If you imply it or just say it happened, that's one thing. Describing it happening and getting all detailed about it is something else. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Yoss
Learned Scribe
USA
259 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2011 : 19:28:51
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| So basically, that would be the difference between "dark" and "gritty"? The actual depiction of whatever vile acts? Because I can roll with that definition, and it would perfectly explain why I enjoy "dark"--bad guys doing bad things, neutral heroes/anti-heroes who live in the gray area, and not necessarily an overwhelming triumph of pure good in the end (ends better than it could have ended, but some people died along the way and the bad guys did cause some irreversible damage on the way to their defeat) is usually more interesting and more relate-able than straight dividing lines between good/evil/black/white--but don't necessarily want "gritty." So you're a demon-spawn, your mother was raped by a fiend, and that is relevant because [insert rest of plot here]. Ok, that's dark, and it definitely has its place. But I don't need a graphic depiction of how that occurred. It isn't going to freak me out, because it takes a lot to truly make me uncomfortable. But I get enough gritty in real life, that I kind of want my fantasy to be...well...fantasy. |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1266 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2011 : 20:21:32
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Dark fantasy to me would be a place where evil has won, the land is covered in shadow and nightfall, good has been banished/defeated, high or low magic etc.
Gritty could be good or evil lands, but low magic world with diseases, rapes, slavery, amputees, etc. I kind of think the more magic in a land the less gritty it would be, since magic is the technological advancement of fantasy and would take care of most problems that create a gritty campaign.
My take anyway. And I don't see the Realms as being Dark or Gritty, Elminster and the chosen are such scamps. I feel like they are the Muppet Babies and Khelben is nanny. No? Just me? Okay. |
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Yoss
Learned Scribe
USA
259 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2011 : 20:55:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
I feel like they are the Muppet Babies and Khelben is nanny.
Haha!! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2011 : 01:01:21
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| Ultimately, so long as dark alleys, shady allies, and backroom dealings are commonplace in your setting, you can introduce as little or as much "grittiness" as you desire for your own Realms games. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 01 Dec 2011 01:02:52 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2011 : 01:26:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Using 'gritty' to describe a style of play where even the beginning characters can magically knit their flesh together with an act of will and even getting stabbed in the guts only means a slightly longer rest period is to divorce it entirely from any meaning I'm familiar with.
I think you may be confusing the 4e rules with the 4e FR setting, which I prefer to look at as two separate things.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Gritty fantasy is fantasy where actions have realistic consequences and the nitty-gritty of survival, disease, infection and other 'unheroic' things is not brushed over.
As I see it, there is 'clean' Dark, like some sort of monolithic - and lawful - empire running every aspect of people's lives, or 'monsters' out in the wilderness, and 'goodly folk' in the towns (for the most part). Then there is gritty dark - its a dirtier, street-level sort of grungy evil; you don't know who to trust, or from which way the next threat will come.
Normal ('clean') Dark settings are more linear - you march off toward the dungeon, dispose of the threat(s), and come back for your reward... unless the rewards were reaped in the dungeon itself (and by 'dungeon', I mean any bad-guy encounter area). Its pretty cut-and-dry what you have to do, and the untrustworthy NPCs are usually recognizable.
Gritty leaves you without knowing which way to turn - you have to make your way day-by-day, minute by minute, just hoping to make it to your next meal.
In the long run, monolithic evils, or your standard monster-fare type evils can actually be far more insidious then the gritty ones, but they aren't so in-your-face. That means they can catch you off gaurd more often - you aren't so tightly-wound as you would be in a gritty setting (like sleeping with one eye open, and one hand on your sword).
So the level of evil can be the same - that doesn't effect whether it is gritty or not - its the overall atmosphere that gives it the gritty feel.
At least, that's IMHO on the subject. It has nothing to do with weather the characters can heal faster or not - in fact, that can actually add to the horror (grit); think of Prometheus in Hades. I would rather be wounded once-a-month and heal slowly, then be ripped apart twenty times a day.
Plus, I just feel like the Spellplague got itself all over everything, giving the entire setting an unwholesome feel now. It just feels sickly, which equates to gritty in my mind. Reading Elminster Must Die ATM, and instead of El and the other Chosen flying about the Realms like the Justice League, you have The Old Sage crawling through sewers under Suzail, barely sane, and The Simbul a slavering beast eating rodents and what-not just to survive. And lets not even get into shining Waterdeep, its harbor filled with rotting debris, and broken statues and defaced buildings - half of which are abandoned - where beautiful parks and thriving businesses once stood. That's pretty damn gritty to me. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Dec 2011 01:32:48 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2011 : 19:38:50
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| Realms are perfectly gritty as they are. If you need more, there are plenty of places to look for that. I love that the realms has a dash of most everthing, depending on where you look...and how deep you delve! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Wolfhound75
Learned Scribe
USA
217 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2011 : 22:58:21
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What I love about the realms is the way it feels balanced and open to interpretation. The designers/authors have done a great deal of setting the scene for 'gritty' or 'heroic' acts to take place and leave it up to individual gamers to define the details. Sort of the the way I detailed what I loved about the 2E lore in the Adventuring section scroll '2nd Edition Forever'.
Does 'gritty' scare me? No. Do I think in my campaigns I need to include detailed descriptions of rape or sodomy. No. Do I admit they exist and allude to them? Yes. In the real world, I've fought in several wars and conflicts so I know lots of forms that 'gritty' can take. Call it a mental scar if you will, but I'd rather admit the possibility that those acts happen in my games than to describe them graphically.
And as always, it's just my opinion and each is entitled to their own.
Good Hunting,
Wolfhound |
"Firepower - if it's not working, you're not using enough." ~ Military Proverb
"If at first you do succeed, you must've rolled a natural 20!" |
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Lady Shadowflame
Learned Scribe
115 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2011 : 01:36:06
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A bit of grittiness is okay.
But my unease with it arises when I consider how easy it is to totally screw it up.
People need to know what they're writing. You can have 'gritty' without having unfortunate implications everywhere... but some people seem unable to reach that point.
If a story's going to be told by someone not mentally sophisticated enough to handle these things, I'd rather it go noblebright than grimdark, because it's harder to turn noblebright into a gut-churning mass of revolting implications.
For example, certain kinds of people revel in the more disturbing aspects of that concept, and then piously exclaim that they're "just being gritty! What do you have against realism?" if they're called on it. |
Save a lizard... Ride a drow.
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Edited by - Lady Shadowflame on 03 Dec 2011 01:51:43 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2011 : 08:53:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Wolfhound75
What I love about the realms is the way it feels balanced and open to interpretation.
I disagree with the "balanced" part. Yes, the Realms has different flavors for almost everyone. But it's hardly balanced, depending where exactly you look at it. If you look at the class/kind of characters portrayed in the novels, then you would barely see some semblance of balance. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Thelonius
Senior Scribe
Spain
730 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2011 : 12:32:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I am no fan of gritty. It can work for some stories, but on the whole, I don't want it in the Realms. Some settings work for gritty stories, and some don't -- I feel that the Realms is not really the place for gritty tales.
Exactly my thoughts, I think the lever of "grityness" the Realms have as in Cormyr saga, the Avatar Trilogyor the constant slaughter of elves in the Return of the Archwizards is enough. I even found that too gritty, to be honest. |
"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2011 : 13:24:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I am no fan of gritty. It can work for some stories, but on the whole, I don't want it in the Realms. Some settings work for gritty stories, and some don't -- I feel that the Realms is not really the place for gritty tales.
Exactly my thoughts, I think the lever of "grityness" the Realms have as in Cormyr saga, the Avatar Trilogyor the constant slaughter of elves in the Return of the Archwizards is enough. I even found that too gritty, to be honest.
I appears like we have different definitions/interpretations of "gritty." I don't consider Return of the Archwizards gritty. Yes, there's gore, violence, and more gore. But it's not as though Denning gave them much focus. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Thelonius
Senior Scribe
Spain
730 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2011 : 13:37:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I am no fan of gritty. It can work for some stories, but on the whole, I don't want it in the Realms. Some settings work for gritty stories, and some don't -- I feel that the Realms is not really the place for gritty tales.
Exactly my thoughts, I think the lever of "grityness" the Realms have as in Cormyr saga, the Avatar Trilogyor the constant slaughter of elves in the Return of the Archwizards is enough. I even found that too gritty, to be honest.
I appears like we have different definitions/interpretations of "gritty." I don't consider Return of the Archwizards gritty. Yes, there's gore, violence, and more gore. But it's not as though Denning gave them much focus.
 Perhaps, though got to say that indiscrimnated slaughter fits my defintion of gritty , though it is a good way of reflecting how gruesome that fight against the beholder was I guess.... |
"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est |
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Snotlord
Senior Scribe
Norway
476 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2011 : 19:43:43
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I prefer my Realms light-hearted and fun, somewhere between Azure Bonds and Baldur's Gate II is just right.
Death, murder and sex is fine - rape, degradation ect does not fit the style of the setting IMO.
I read and enjoy Martin and Abercrombie a lot, but use them as inspriation for games in other settings when appropriate. |
Edited by - Snotlord on 15 Dec 2011 19:44:19 |
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idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2011 : 20:30:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Snotlord
I prefer my Realms light-hearted and fun, somewhere between Azure Bonds and Baldur's Gate II is just right.
Death, murder and sex is fine - rape, degradation ect does not fit the style of the setting IMO.
I read and enjoy Martin and Abercrombie a lot, but use them as inspriation for games in other settings when appropriate.
I actually thought Baldur's Gate 2 had plenty of gritty and dark in it, and think the Realms as a whole has plenty of room for grit. In Baldur's Gate 2 you have to choose between helping a murderous vampire coven or aiding a well established thieves' guild responsible for enormous amounts of human misery. You face a child murderer and the spirits of the children he killed, are attacked by thralls with no free will in certain cases(the Planar Prison springs to mind, as well as Nalia's Keep) where there is no way out but to kill them despite the fact that they can't control their actions. You spot highly addictive drugs being used and smuggled which you can't stop, torture if you side with the thieves' guild, and a grisly series of murders which could lead to your party, if you have evil members, wearing leather armor made from human skin.
You can travel with murderers, evil wizards, a drow priestess of Shar(who you meet when a crowd of people are seet to burn her to death for just being a drow on the surface), psychopaths, and even many of the more or less good characters have baggage(annoying Anomen's family problems, that druid who abandoned his family, Keldorn's wife cuckolding him). You have to blend into a drow city by accepting the horrible things you see and work for an Aboleth so that your cover isn't blown and you don't have to slaughter the entire city on the way out. There are thieves, a slaver's den(which luckily you get to raid with a good chance of not killing any of the child slaves, unless you happen to be off on your aim for an area of effect spell). You are double crossed many times, once in particular by a companion that you can't save who is under a gaes and doesn't want to betray you. And that's if you take the mostly good quests, there's also plenty of evil quests to follow. Oh, and the whole time you have the blood of a god of murder in your veins and unless you bribe a corrupt group of powerful mages you are hounded if you cast spells in the city.
From my point of view, there's plenty of grit, darkness, and shades of grey to be had in the Forgotten Realms right alongside the heroic fantasy. Rasheman, Shadowdale, Silverymoon, or Waterdeep probably wouldn't the best places to have tons of grit. But the various city states of the Moonsea, Menzoberranzan or anything in the Underdark, the untamed Sword Coast, Calimshan, Tethyr during it's civil war, some of the other Dales, Westgate, and Amn certainly seem to have plenty of room for gritty play to me. And a place like Thay would be badly done if there weren't horrible things going on there.
In the end the Realms are broad enough to offer something for everyone, from an extremely gritty game just trying to survive on the streets in Westgate or Skullport all the way to pure black and white, clearly defined heroism in Silverymoon, making the North safe with shouts of "For the good of all goodly folk!" on their lips. How much grit you include is up to you and your group, the setting isn't hardwired one particular way. |
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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2011 : 20:55:03
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From personal experience, when your players are used to fighting fiends, undead horrors, and maddening aberrations, simple human (or demihuman) evil or plain worldly misfortune can honestly really shake up the players and give you that gritty feeling. A shopkeeper who beats his apprentice raw, a noble lass "ruined" by a rapist and shunned by those who once saw her as promising political capital, and the daily grind of life in a big city where accidents are common and people are cruel.
Even with priestly magic helping things out, life is harsh (but not necessarily horrible) in pre-industrial societies. |
Edited by - Eladrinstar on 15 Dec 2011 20:56:43 |
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How "gritty" should the realms be?
