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perm
Acolyte
11 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Oct 2011 : 10:42:26
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is this right? I read it here http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Tahlshara
And it is listed as a +8 two handed sword. Seems a bit odd as a +6 weapon seems pretty good for gods and demon lords. Thought I suppose the lore behind it makes sense, the greatest elven cratfsman in history devoting her life to make it over more than a century. But is this +8 bonus right?
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Joran Nobleheart
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2011 : 11:14:28
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I can actually help here, I beieve. This is a direct quote from Elves of Evermeet, a 2E sourcebook which I believe WotC still offers as a free download...
Tahlshara
This weapon, considered by many to be the
greatest elven weapon ever crafted, is one of
the three Great Treasures of Evermeet. It is currently
in the keeping of Queen Amlaruil. Infused
with the magic of the Seldarine, the
weapon's powers cannot be used by non-elves.
Any non-elf touching the weapon must successfully
save vs. death magic or be instantly
slain. This prohibition extends, not surprisingly,
to Drow, regardless of their alignment.
Tahlshara is a broad-bladed, two-handed
sword. Leaves and vines are etched into its surface
and its hilt is carved with complex knotwork.
Its name is written in small characters
around the ferrule.
Tahlshara normally functions as a two-handed
sword +8, and drops its wielder's AC to 0, but it
has a number of special abilities that can be
used at will. Unfortunately, each use of a special
ability marked by an asterisk in the following
listing requires a 1d100 roll and reference to
the High Magic Effects table. All who use the
sword must roll 1d100 and refer to the table,
regardless of class. Only Queen Amlaruil is
immune to this effect. All special abilities are at
20th level unless otherwise noted.
Tahlshara's powers are cast any high magic
spell*, vorpal weapon +5*, teleport without error,
spellstrike*, sunburst, spelltrap*, turnshadow, and
teleport dead. |
Paladinic Ethos
Saint Joran Nobleheart |
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glitter
Acolyte
France
45 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2011 : 13:46:05
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quote:
Originally posted by perm
is this right? I read it here http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Tahlshara
And it is listed as a +8 two handed sword. Seems a bit odd as a +6 weapon seems pretty good for gods and demon lords.
If I must believe FAITHS AND PANTHEONS, Selune has a +5 defending disruption holy heavy mace.
That sound as impressive as a "plain" +8 weapons 
EDIT: I just noticed in the Joran reply that it might be from 2Ed, so, is a direct comparison fair ? |
-The black knight is invincible!
- You’re a looney. |
Edited by - glitter on 31 Oct 2011 13:47:46 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2011 : 15:30:09
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| Artifacts were always allowed to 'break the rules' - that was the point of them. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2011 : 16:55:18
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| Not only +8, but also Save-vs-Death any N'Tel'Quessir it touches. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2011 : 18:05:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Artifacts were always allowed to 'break the rules' - that was the point of them.
In fact, at least one of the older rulebooks explicitly stated this -- it said artifacts were a reason for DMs to break the rules. I want to say that was the 1E DMG, but I haven't replaced the one I lost yet. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2011 : 18:09:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Joran Nobleheart
I can actually help here, I beieve. This is a direct quote from Elves of Evermeet, a 2E sourcebook which I believe WotC still offers as a free download...
Nope. WotC has either taken down or hidden the old downloads, and Elves of Evermeet was never one of them. The only one of the FOR# books that was offered for free was Cult of the Dragon. |
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Joran Nobleheart
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2011 : 22:44:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Joran Nobleheart
I can actually help here, I beieve. This is a direct quote from Elves of Evermeet, a 2E sourcebook which I believe WotC still offers as a free download...
Nope. WotC has either taken down or hidden the old downloads, and Elves of Evermeet was never one of them. The only one of the FOR# books that was offered for free was Cult of the Dragon.
Oh, I wasn't aware they'd done that. When was this, if I may ask? And I honestly thought that was one of the books offered. Maybe I am thinking of Cormanthyr - Empire of the Elves. I'm pretty sure I remember one being an elven tome. Interesting though, that they should pull those down. Perhaps people were using those and playing by those rules of FR over 4E's version. If so, I'd find that rather hilarious, and completely understandable.   |
Paladinic Ethos
Saint Joran Nobleheart |
Edited by - Joran Nobleheart on 31 Oct 2011 22:47:12 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2011 : 23:10:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Joran Nobleheart
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Joran Nobleheart
I can actually help here, I beieve. This is a direct quote from Elves of Evermeet, a 2E sourcebook which I believe WotC still offers as a free download...
Nope. WotC has either taken down or hidden the old downloads, and Elves of Evermeet was never one of them. The only one of the FOR# books that was offered for free was Cult of the Dragon.
Oh, I wasn't aware they'd done that. When was this, if I may ask? And I honestly thought that was one of the books offered. Maybe I am thinking of Cormanthyr - Empire of the Elves. I'm pretty sure I remember one being an elven tome. Interesting though, that they should pull those down. Perhaps people were using those and playing by those rules of FR over 4E's version. If so, I'd find that rather hilarious, and completely understandable.
Two or three months ago, I think... Cormanthyr was one of the free ones. 
I honestly expected them to pull down those pdfs back when they did the still-insrutable maneuver of cancelling sales of legal pdfs. But they left them up for years... I'm still not 100% convinced they're gone; WotC so often shuffles stuff around without any notification anywhere that I'm inclined to think they're still somewhere on WotC servers, and no one has figured out the new link. I honestly think that even the WotC webmasters don't know where everything is on their sites, or what links to what. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2011 : 00:25:26
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| I've pointed out before, that unlike the many previous times WotC arbitrarily reshuffled these downloads into some back corner, this time they are absolutely unlisted in any of the magic search engines. I've even read their ROBOTS.TXT files, those that are available to visitors, and saw no explicit instructions to unlist directories likely to contain such lore. If the content is still officially online then it's sitting in some invisible location known only to WotC's closest friends. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2011 : 00:43:14
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I tend to think in 3e, so I see a +8 sword as an epic item rather than an artifact, though the sword in question is certainly an arti with its additional powers and great history.
I'm also amazed by how much of an aversion people have to swords that have a bonus greater then +5. I mean, I know they are OP, but how much more than a +5 sword (lol, duh! Answer is +1). Anyway, I've come across DMS that will handout artifacts like candy on Halloween that wont go near a +6 sword. Whats the deal? |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2011 : 01:13:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Artifacts were always allowed to 'break the rules' - that was the point of them.
In fact, at least one of the older rulebooks explicitly stated this -- it said artifacts were a reason for DMs to break the rules. I want to say that was the 1E DMG, but I haven't replaced the one I lost yet.
It was included in the old Book of Artifacts, and the Encyclopedia Magica series, as I recall, also.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2011 : 01:16:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I've pointed out before, that unlike the many previous times WotC arbitrarily reshuffled these downloads into some back corner, this time they are absolutely unlisted in any of the magic search engines. I've even read their ROBOTS.TXT files, those that are available to visitors, and saw no explicit instructions to unlist directories likely to contain such lore. If the content is still officially online then it's sitting in some invisible location known only to WotC's closest friends.
The problem with the robot.txt files, is that they require a great deal of web-oversight. So it's entirely possible that the new location for the downloadable PDFs, just hasn't been updated to the new registry for Wizards' site overhaul, and the location data is just lingering in virtual limbo.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2011 : 06:18:26
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lol, Sage ... the demonbots bound to service the mighty search genies can and will methodically index and reference every single item visible on the server unless they are specifically commanded to not do so (and even then, the less reputable search genies will ignore such imperatives to attract more clients with "exclusive content").
Such instructions to ignore directories of hidden lore are not present, nor has the lore itself been offered by any of the search genies (regardless of their ethical standing); they would find invisible unlinked pages, just as they always do. Link crawling is an obsolete method.
Though, yes, the Wayback Machine and other internet archives, legal and otherwise, still contain copies of these downloads. There is always the possibility Wizbro will issue orders to have their old content removed from the archives, although of course their legal decrees will essentially be entirely ignored by those who copy such things illegally. There is also the possibility that Wizbro will continue to ignore legally archived material, as they have done for years - but you never know, one day it could simply vanish forever. |
[/Ayrik] |
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perm
Acolyte
11 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2011 : 07:40:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
I tend to think in 3e, so I see a +8 sword as an epic item rather than an artifact, though the sword in question is certainly an arti with its additional powers and great history.
I'm also amazed by how much of an aversion people have to swords that have a bonus greater then +5. I mean, I know they are OP, but how much more than a +5 sword (lol, duh! Answer is +1). Anyway, I've come across DMS that will handout artifacts like candy on Halloween that wont go near a +6 sword. Whats the deal?
Just seems absurd to have an item that is gigantically better than things that the gods themselves wield. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2011 : 08:37:44
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| I personally feel there are any number of ways to create an über-epic weapon worthy of kings and emperors and slayers of gods, rather than simply slap a really big number onto it. Describing a sword with maximum plusses, then adding a few more to pump it up to eleven is both uninspired and uninteresting. Any DM can hand out a longsword +9, and no matter what fancy name or history/background fluff it's given, no matter what sorts of other magical things it can do, no matter how well made and finely crafted etc etc ... all the PCs are gonna see is PLUS NINE BONUS (even better than Tahlshara!) and whatever inconvenient conditions might need to be satisfied to apply this bonus in combat. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 01 Nov 2011 08:40:58 |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
657 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2011 : 12:15:57
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You have to tell the mechanical bonuses at the end of the description, or slowly reveal them later
I don't think Corelon has a powerful sword such as this |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2011 : 18:06:17
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| Elves of Evermeet was one of the FOR books... Something else that defied the rules in one of those books was the AC's given to some of the dragons in FOR1 Draconomicon. In 2E, Armor Class ranged from 10 at the worst to -10 at the best -- and some of the dragons in Draconomicon had ACs of -12, and I seem to recall a -15 in there, as well. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2011 : 18:43:27
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Later 2E books, the "2.5E" Options and such, allowed AC and THAC0 to increase indefinitely. Although this has been a sort of unofficial rule at every table I ever saw anyhow, even in 1E.
Then again, I've joined a few Monty Haul games where all the munchkins have things like scimitar +10, chainmail +25, and ring of regeneration +59. Not my sort of playstyle at all, but evidently appealing enough to always be around. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 01 Nov 2011 18:50:17 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2011 : 18:53:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Later 2E books, the "2.5E" Options and such, allowed AC and THAC0 to increase indefinitely.
Draconomicon quite predated the Options stuff. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2011 : 18:56:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Marc
I don't think Corelon has a powerful sword such as this
Thats because Amluruil's got it. (we need a rimshot smiley) |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Nov 2011 18:57:18 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2011 : 00:37:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
lol, Sage ... the demonbots bound to service the mighty search genies can and will methodically index and reference every single item visible on the server unless they are specifically commanded to not do so (and even then, the less reputable search genies will ignore such imperatives to attract more clients with "exclusive content").
That's strange, because the files I've seen and tinkered with, require a great deal of attention from administrators. And I know this is partly the case for the Wizards' web team, because I've asked them before about lost catalogue locations on their site. This has often been attributed as the cause. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2011 : 05:09:27
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You just need 1,280,000 gold pieces to make a +8 item as far as I'm concerned = P Maybe you have to buy it in Sigil or with Devil merchants or something...but its not absurd when there are level 30+ characters in the world.
Maybe Gods just don't need +8 things because of their other powers, or they just didn't feel like sticking in things higher than +6 there.
It also doesn't seem absurd compared to the power of other items we know exist like the Death Moon Orb, the Crystal Shard or Thaksoril's Seat. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2011 : 08:52:35
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| Insofar as deities go, I'm of the opinion that divine stature trumps mortal junk every time. Their avatars might be armed with lowly +6 weaponry which might indeed be inferior to some fancy +8 sword wielded by an uppity elf, but such toys are inconsequential compared to the power of the deity itself. You can bet that whatever the books might say, and whatever you bring to the battlefield, Tempus will always manage to bring something even bigger and badder. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
657 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2011 : 09:49:49
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| Casting any high magic part is absurd, does that include the Killing Storm, the tsunami that destroyed Jhaamdath, Dracorage Mythal and the Sundering? |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2011 : 13:32:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Elves of Evermeet was one of the FOR books... Something else that defied the rules in one of those books was the AC's given to some of the dragons in FOR1 Draconomicon. In 2E, Armor Class ranged from 10 at the worst to -10 at the best -- and some of the dragons in Draconomicon had ACs of -12, and I seem to recall a -15 in there, as well.
Actually, the Draconomicon did not invent anything. In the Ring-binder Monstrous Compendium, gold dragons already went over the -10 rule (Wyrms -11, Great Wyrms -12), as did silvers (Great Wyrm -11). |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2012 : 10:59:21
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I was reading this old post, and was kinda surprised by the way some people were treating a +8 sword like something so over-powered. Well, it is not usual to have swords above +5, even if additional powers make them equivalent to more powerful blades in 3e and 3.5, at least. But Tahlshara is +8 in pure bonus, something that would or should not exist, especially in 2e times.
But well, I can think of two weapons that break the +5 barrier back then, although they do it only versus specific enemies... A Frost Brand sword, in 2e, can strike with a +6 bonus against fire creatures, and a Holy Avenger, in the hands of a paladin and against a chaotic evil foe can attain an impressive +10, both swords having other powers beside the hit and damage bonuses.
The point is that Tahlshara is the most powerful sword of elven history, and makes up for that. More impressive than being a +8 sword, in my opinion, is its ability to cast high magic, along with many other magical powers. But then again, this is the most powerful elven blade ever made, being forged and enchanted in a 150 years process, and an item that would supplant any other elven sword, even the fabled moonblades.
EDIT: Text edition for clarity. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 13 Nov 2012 15:33:52 |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2012 : 13:59:43
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| On the other hand, 150 to elves is like 25 to us. Maybe 15. Saying a sword is the most powerful the elves have forged in 150 years, when they've been living and warring with incredibly powerful foes (ie: dragons and giants) for twenty thousand years isn't saying much. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2012 : 14:18:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
I was reading this old post, and was kinda surprised by the way some people were treating a +8 sword like something so over-powered. Well, it is not usual to have swords above +5, even if additional powers make them equivalent to more powerful blades in 3e and 3.5, at least. But Tahlshara is +8 in pure bonus, something that would or should not exist, especially in 2e times.
But well, I can think of two weapons that break the +5 barrier back then, although they do it only versus specific enemies... A Frost Brand sword, in 2e, can strike with a +6 bonus against fire creatures, and a Holy Avenger, in the hands of a paladin and against a chaotic evil foe can attain an impressive +10, both swords having other powers beside the hit and damage bonuses.
The point is that Tahlshara is the most powerful sword of elven history, and makes up for that. More impressive than being a +8 sword, in my opinion, is its ability to cast high magic, along with many other magical powers. But then again, this is the most powerful elven blade ever made, forged and enchanted in 150 years, and an item that would supplant any other elven sword, even the fabled moonblades.
I thought it was a moonblade? The moonblade in fact. A sword that gains powers from every additional user, but becomes more dangerous every time. Moonblades were Used to judge which family would rule based on which line kept their moonblades the longest.
Maybe I am wrong, but i always thought that sword was the reason Amlauruil's line was the ruling line. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2012 : 14:49:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
On the other hand, 150 to elves is like 25 to us. Maybe 15. Saying a sword is the most powerful the elves have forged in 150 years, when they've been living and warring with incredibly powerful foes (ie: dragons and giants) for twenty thousand years isn't saying much.
It's not the most powerful forged in 150 years, it's the most powerful forged, and it took 150 years to forge it. |
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the Queen of Evermeet has a plus EIGHT sword?
