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Miraculixx
Acolyte
Germany
19 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Oct 2011 : 10:36:01
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Hello all,
i am looking for information concerning Sigil and the Lady of Pain (the ruler there)
Is there any information at all available (i think in 4th edition of D&D, there is Planescape never mentioned)but how is it with 3ed editon rules or 2nd edition.
I ask, because i want finally to play and understand the old PC-game Planescape Torment. I often started the game in the past, but never got out of Sigil (starting point of the game).
I know there are one or two books, which detail Sigil, i believe they are called Torment and Pages of Pain, but never read them, cause i couldnt get them here.
Any information concerning Sigil and Lady of Pain is appreciated.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2011 : 11:41:39
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Planescape was written by TSR in 2E, it was an entire setting consisting of a few dozen sourcebooks containing much information about Sigil (as the default campaign location) and the Lady of Pain ... Planescape Torment is something like a "typical" Planescape adventure, although players are as likely to be hurled across the planes as to be stuck in Sigil.
To my knowledge WotC discontinued Planescape. 3E and 4E went a step further: they basically redefined the D&D cosmos so that the planes work quite differently, in ways which blatantly contradict earlier lore and each other, although they did still keep Sigil and it is still something like the "center" of the D&D universe. A fair number of 3rd parth OGL/d20 books were released for 3E and 3.5E (indeed, there's also the immensely popular Pathfinder cosmology), some of these have Sigil and some do not, but none would be considered TSR/WotC canon. |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2011 : 13:14:05
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The Lady of Pain is deliberately left as a mysterious character, so the most you'll find, officially, about her, is what has sporadically been hinted at in past planar sources -- like the majority of 2e PLANESCAPE products -- and a few brief mentions in 3e books like Manual of the Planes and the Planar Handbook. I'd also recommend you search sites like planewalker.com and its associated forums, for fan-based theories on the Lady of Pain.
As for Sigil itself, well, it's been given a rather thorough detailing in various 2e PLANESCAPE sources -- particularly In the Cage: A Guide to Sigil. It's worth you tracking down these sources for yourself, if you can find them [try nobleknight.com], and not only because of their collective focus on the City of Doors. These books remain some of the best products released by TSR, and offer a wealth of planar background material and concepts that can be well adapted for just about any kind of adventure -- whether it be on the Prime Material or out among the planes. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 23 Oct 2011 13:15:29 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2011 : 13:48:46
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You can download 3e Planescape campaign setting at Planewalker to get all the information
Don't forget Faces of Sigil, it is the best book in D&D
And http://mimir.net/ladyofpain/index.shtml
Pages of Pain is not that necessary, it's a bit inconsistent |
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Aether Navigator
Acolyte
10 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2011 : 19:21:35
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| I remember in the adventure module Die, Vecna, Die! it was revealed that the Lady of Pain was a primeval force of creation, and Sigil rests on the spot which is the keystone of the multiverse. However, you may not consider that cannon, as it is an adventure. Furthermore, belief is reality on the outer planes, so even if you hold the information in that adventure to be true it could have become true over time. |
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Light
Learned Scribe
Australia
231 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2011 : 21:09:38
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| On a somewhat related note, Planescape Torment is an awesome game. |
"A true warrior needs no sword" - Thors (Vinland Saga) |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2011 : 05:38:37
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3e didn't really change much regarding Sigil or Her Serenity, while 4e largely leaves the city itself little changed but utterly alters the nature of the planes around it (it's probably best to view the 4e situation as being a completely different game which also happens to incorporate a version of Sigil).
There are hints and such in places, but nothing concrete regarding the Lady, which is sort of the point to have her as a giant mystery and more of a force of nature and background than an actual NPC to directly interact with. They were somewhat explicit about that in the 2e box set actually.
Late 2e Die Vecna Die tries to explain her, but it has a whole slew of continuity issues with prior and subsequent material and it's often seen as non-canon for the setting. The late 3e Planar Handbook has a short chapter on Sigil (which is largely reprinted for the 4e version of the city in one of the 4e DMGs), and it makes the somewhat awkward claim for an alignment for The Lady as LN. Likewise that's also often viewed as non-canon depending on who you ask.
I like to leave it a deliberate mystery in canon, with each DM being the one to assign something to fill in the blanks for their own campaigns if they so choose, or just leave it a perpetual mystery there as well.
I've not had the chance to touch on her in anything I've done, unless you count coming up with the rumor of former Factol Nilesia being flayed by The Lady in public as one of two fates for everyone's favorite insane tiefling Mercykiller mentioned in Dragon magazine a few years ago. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2011 : 20:30:39
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I'd have to agree with Aether, and therefor mildly disagree with Shemmy (which is very rare) concerning 4e.
Aether points-out that the nature of the Universe - and most especially the Outer Plans - are defined by belief, and over time the nature of the universe changes as people's beliefs change, and that two completely different versions of the multiverse can BOTH be simultaneously true (normally from world-to-world, but if the mind behind the belief is powerful enough, from being to being). Even gods are restrained by belief, and look and act different from sphere to sphere.
Normally, these changes are wrought slowly, like how the border-towns slip into their neighboring planes around the Great Ring. However, it is possible that a 'Cosmic Conflagration' (Armageddon, Ragnarok, 'Grand Conjunction', etc...) could make massive changes overnight, because the event itself causes many to question their own beliefs, and a 'new order' arises.
And each world/plane would once again entertain their own ideas about those changes, and the model of the multiverse as it pertains to them would alter to fit their beliefs.
BTW, I still think that the 'Event' in Die Vecna, Die happened at the same time as the Spellplague - the two dates line-up when you compare the Oerth calender with the Torillian one, and that could explain A LOT. In fact, I don't even consider them separate events at all, but rather, separate permutations of the same event. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Oct 2011 20:31:19 |
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StarFyre
Acolyte
9 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2011 : 10:35:48
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Actually, the events in Die Vecna Die, were published to explain the change is cosmology and rules going into 3rd edition from 2nd edition.
There are notes, etc in the end of the adventure that talk of some of the severe changes in the planes, etc.
Maybe they used the same concepts for the Spellplague however, but i understood it as the spellplague took place well after the events in the Timeline of Die Vecna Die since it was just made to exlain an edition change.
Sanjay
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2011 : 13:07:18
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quote:
Originally posted by StarFyre
Actually, the events in Die Vecna Die, were published to explain the change is cosmology and rules going into 3rd edition from 2nd edition.
I've heard this (both with this and the module 'The Apocalypse Stone') except that none of the actual changes described in the module resemble what actually changed between 2e and 3e (largely Shadow becoming a full transitive plane rather than a demiplane, but otherwise pretty minor, superficial changes).
My guess is that when DVD (and the Apocalypse Stone) were written, the changes that later happened in the 3e MotP weren't yet decided on, and that rather than being written to explain any overt changes between 2e and 3e, they were there as generic 'end your campaign with a bang' modules before transitioning folks over between editions. But I'm sure that if the authors were asked, or anyone on the design team during that period, we might get a better idea of the intent. :) |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2011 : 04:03:47
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quote:
Originally posted by StarFyre
Maybe they used the same concepts for the Spellplague however, but i understood it as the spellplague took place well after the events in the Timeline of Die Vecna Die since it was just made to exlain an edition change.
In RW time, yes, but in D&D time, no.
According to A Temporal Chronology of the Primes, the events of DvD happened between 1381-1386 DR, which puts it precisely during the run-up to the Spellplague, the Spellplague itself, and the year immediately following.
Coincidentally, a time-based storyline occurred during 1383 DR on Krynn. Major events , disrupting the planes and the timestream, during a five-year period, across the main three D&D worlds (and all others, for all we know).
Also, as a side-note, we know that Shar has her own separate 'Roll of Years' - The black Chronology - and it is not-so-mildly hinted at that Shar is a multi-spheric power (her statue is paramount in the Shadow Temple, above all other shadow-gods) in the 1st Everis Cale series. Her machinations could be broader the any of us realized, and many of these planes-altering events could just be her plans falling into place.
I have a feeling she was behind the rise of 'The Dark Three', and since she rules the Shadowfel, and the Domains of Dread are located therein, and thats where Vecna began his 'Grand Conjunction' scheme... just seems like too many things are related. For all we know, she may have drew Vecna into Ravenloft to first weaken the planer stability. Of course, I think she would have needed help for something of this magnitude... help of a fiendish nature.
And who gained the most after the fall of Mytsra? 
In fact, Shar may be the mistress of secrets, but even she could fall prey to the lord of lies. She herself may have just been a pawn in a much larger game. The cosmos is a funny place. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Dec 2011 04:06:36 |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2011 : 10:28:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In RW time, yes, but in D&D time, no.
According to A Temporal Chronology of the Primes, the events of DvD happened between 1381-1386 DR, which puts it precisely during the run-up to the Spellplague, the Spellplague itself, and the year immediately following.
I do not think that the events of DVD were linked in any way to the Spellplague; the Chronology states that the Grand Conjunction, which did not feature Vecna at all, took place during 1381-1386 DR, which take place in 735-740 Barovian Reckoning. The last incarnation of Ravenloft in 2E (the Domains of Dread hardcover) set current time at 752 BR (which would correspond to 1398 DR), and Vecna was still holed up in the Burning Peaks at the time, and was presumably still working on his escape. In the adventure Vecna Reborn, set after the publication of Domains of Dread, there is no hint about him having tried to reshape the multiverse in Die, Vecna, Die!, which seems to be set after the events in Vecna Reborn (there's a reference to that adventure in DVD).
So, the Spellplague (which was, one presumes, not quite conceived yet as an FR event, at the time) would have taken place several years before the earliest date the events of DVD would have taken place. I don't think that the two events were ever supposed to have been linked, but with a bit of retconning, anything is possible, of course (non-linear flow of time in the Domains of Dread, and so on). |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2011 : 17:35:06
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And the ToT took place about 2 decades before, and I think that is also linked - the Black Chronology (which seems to be an alternate timeline of prophesy) first became 'real' when Cyric rose as a deity, and later, Cyric kills Mystra - it is all related. Since that span of time - a blink of an eye to an ancient god - can be part of the same plot, then the Grand Conjunction (which allowed Vecna to do what he did) could be - theoretically - part of the same plot as well.
I'm not saying this is what they had in mind with the Vecna storyline when it was written, since that was designed around the former edition change, but given the players and scope of the 4e changes (Shar and Asmodeus, and probably others), one can surmise that connections are retroactively plausible.
Also, there are quite a few 'evil powers' involved in all of this - Archfiends, shadow and death gods, etc... it just seems like the kinds of clandestine plans such beings would have. Didn't Bane sponsor Mellifleur? (which could be why Bane in 4e is multispheric) Velsharoon and possibly Vecna are both aspects of the Lich god Mellifleur, IIRC (or the other way around - it matters not, really). Who sponsored Vecna? It was Amodeus! (as 'The Serpent', who may also be one of the Reptilian/draconic deities, as Ahriman.) Talos sponsored Velsharoon, and we now know that Talos is Gruumsh - a power supposedly formed during the initial fight between Mystra and Shar. And Nerull - a deity very similar to Shar (and the Dark Three, all rolled into one) - is trying to recapture some of his divine essence from Mellifleur!
Maybe the Blood War didn't stop at all - maybe the whole thing was one massive 'cosmic diversion'. It seems to me that Asmodeus has been trying to 'take over' the universe since time began, and the demons - devils natural enemies - have been trying to stop him from achieving his goals. Wouldn't it be a kick in the head if the only thing that has been keeping the universe safe were demons? (and the Bloodwar)
Of course this all just so much theorizing, but its fun to think about.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Dec 2011 18:21:59 |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2011 : 21:29:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Of course this all just so much theorizing, but its fun to think about.
I could not agree more! I have spent many hours (thinking about overwhelming evils is a nice change from trying to identify the origins of the bodily odours of my fellow commuters on the Tube) trying ro reconcile an concoct a metaplot for the metaverse including Vecna, Tolkien's Morgoth, Stormbringer, B5's Shadows. Oh, and Ronald MacDonald  . |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2011 : 00:54:27
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Vecna is already canon in every D&D edition.
If ye be referring to the legendary sword Stormbringer which is wielded by Moorcock's Eternal Champion then you may find the first 144-page printing of 1E Deities & Demigods very helpful. It contains D&D writeups for Moorcock's Melnibonéan Mythos which detail (among other things) both Stormbringer and Elric of Melniboné. Alas, this tome is now rather rare and sought-after because all of the Melnibonéan Mythos material (along with the Lovecraft's Cthulhu Mythos and Leiber's Lankmar-Nehwon Mythos) were quietly removed for legal reasons; the revised 128-page version which lacks this content is considered less desirable and far more common.
Numerous fanbrewed D&D adaptations for Tolkien's Middle Earth (with Morgoth/Sauron, of course) are scattered throughout the magical floating libraries of the ether.
I can't say I've yet heard of any Babylon 5 lore being imported into D&D, although it wouldn't surprise me. Proper inclusion of the Shadows would also necessitate involvement of the Vorlons or other First Ones. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Lady Swiftstrike Assassin
Seeker
73 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2011 : 09:38:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
BTW, I still think that the 'Event' in Die Vecna, Die happened at the same time as the Spellplague - the two dates line-up when you compare the Oerth calender with the Torillian one, and that could explain A LOT. In fact, I don't even consider them separate events at all, but rather, separate permutations of the same event.
That's one way to look at it, but probably not the best. A more accurate timeline of the Campaign Worlds of Dungeons and Dragons can be found here:
http://www.spelljammer.org/essays/history/pw_timeline.html
The author takes the time to establish how he syncs the timelines; I think this is a better timeline than the one offered by Markustay.
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2011 : 10:28:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
(...) Alas, this tome is now rather rare and sought-after because all of the Melnibonéan Mythos material (along with the Lovecraft's Cthulhu Mythos and Leiber's Lankmar-Nehwon Mythos) were quietly removed for legal reasons; the revised 128-page version which lacks this content is considered less desirable and far more common.(...)
I think the Nehwon mythos was kept, for it was even there in the 2nd edition "Legends and Lore", and some Lankhmar accessories were released afterwards, IIRC. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2011 : 11:41:16
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| Vecna's citadel Cavitus has parts that even he's afraid to explore, there may be something as dangerous as the Lady of Pain |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2011 : 22:21:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
If ye be referring to the legendary sword Stormbringer which is wielded by Moorcock's Eternal Champion then you may find the first 144-page printing of 1E Deities & Demigods very helpful. It contains D&D writeups for Moorcock's Melnibonéan Mythos which detail (among other things) both Stormbringer and Elric of Melniboné. Alas, this tome is now rather rare and sought-after because all of the Melnibonéan Mythos material (along with the Lovecraft's Cthulhu Mythos and Leiber's Lankmar-Nehwon Mythos) were quietly removed for legal reasons; the revised 128-page version which lacks this content is considered less desirable and far more common.
Numerous fanbrewed D&D adaptations for Tolkien's Middle Earth (with Morgoth/Sauron, of course) are scattered throughout the magical floating libraries of the ether.
I can't say I've yet heard of any Babylon 5 lore being imported into D&D, although it wouldn't surprise me. Proper inclusion of the Shadows would also necessitate involvement of the Vorlons or other First Ones.
i am aware of all of the above (and actually got my greedy fingers on a copy of the original Deities and Demigods back in the 1980s,when I started gaming. The Nehwon lot were include in the followups, up to 2E Legends and Lore; only the Elric and Cthulhu mythoses, which were at the time licenses to Chaosium, were cut from subsequent versions.
As for Stormbringer, it's more about the entity or entities that manifest as the swords - in Stormbringer (the last novel in the Elric saga, from an in-universe chronological point of view) it is implied that old Stormy was what might later be called in D&D, an Elder Evil, and only one of many, at that. And all of that because I one day (sometime around 16 July 1996, 12:46 AM, CET) I started wondering how the mind flayers managed to lose their planes-spanning empire... The "Gith did it" never quite seemee spectacular enough for me...
As for B5, there used to be a netbook that tries to translate some of the B5 notions into Spelljammer terminology; the conversion did not really travel all that well, though, but I just took over the idea of previous generations of races that were now forgotten (with a healthy sprinkling of Cthulhu-like mythos thrown in).
It is still work in progress, of course. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2011 : 01:05:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Vecna's citadel Cavitus has parts that even he's afraid to explore, there may be something as dangerous as the Lady of Pain
I've always loved that bit about Cavitus.
What, in all the myriad planes, could possibly frighten Vecna?  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2011 : 02:35:00
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| Perhaps it's the usual evil overlord deal: Vecna can assure his own continuance and immortality through progeny. He would also be worried about the constant threat against him while simultaneously pleased that his progeny is competent. He could have a real son of a lich locked up in there. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2011 : 06:39:26
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Wasn't the chronology of the Primes written by an FR designer? 
Are we saying that a fan has a 'more canon' version then that of a designer?
I could be wrong on this one - I found that chronology originally on Brian R. James own site, but I don't know who wrote it.
I have to ask - did you create an account just to pick a fight with me? (Swiftstrike Assassin?)
Anyhow, I already said it would not have been designed that way originally (unless the TSR/WotC designers had precognitive powers). I was merely stating that the date of the Spellplague may not have been chosen all that arbitrarily (or, on the other hand, it very well could have been). I just find it interesting that there was a lot of 'cosmic stuff' going on around the same time.
I had that rare tome, Ayrik - its gone now. 
I can still picture that lovely illustration of Xiombarg. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Dec 2011 06:41:44 |
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Lady Swiftstrike Assassin
Seeker
73 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2011 : 07:21:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Wasn't the chronology of the Primes written by an FR designer?
Are we saying that a fan has a 'more canon' version then that of a designer?
I could be wrong on this one - I found that chronology originally on Brian R. James own site, but I don't know who wrote it.
I have to ask - did you create an account just to pick a fight with me? (Swiftstrike Assassin?)
Anyhow, I already said it would not have been designed that way originally (unless the TSR/WotC designers had precognitive powers). I was merely stating that the date of the Spellplague may not have been chosen all that arbitrarily (or, on the other hand, it very well could have been). I just find it interesting that there was a lot of 'cosmic stuff' going on around the same time.
I had that rare tome, Ayrik - its gone now.
I can still picture that lovely illustration of Xiombarg.
I DID create this account to pick a fight with Markustay!
Also, as any scribe can see, there is more than one way to view the Planar Chronology of the Primes, and I personally believe that the one posted above (on SJ.org) is the better of the two... BRJ's fine design work notwisanding!
Oh! In this case, I think a fan has generated a better representation of presented canon than a fan who presented some canon so well that he became a designer. (Fancy that.) |
Edited by - Lady Swiftstrike Assassin on 30 Dec 2011 07:27:47 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2011 : 20:26:45
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
What, in all the myriad planes, could possibly frighten Vecna?
I have a theory: I suspect it is THIS! |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2011 : 01:59:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
What, in all the myriad planes, could possibly frighten Vecna?
I have a theory: I suspect it is THIS!
HEHEHEHEHE
So our Rick is Vecna's lad? (that would explain the dancing and the success of the S.A.W. music production unit in the 80's & 90's).
Good post Gray to end this year and take us into a new one
Cheers
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2011 : 04:59:13
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
The Lady of Pain is deliberately left as a mysterious character, so the most you'll find, officially, about her, is what has sporadically been hinted at in past planar sources -- like the majority of 2e PLANESCAPE products -- and a few brief mentions in 3e books like Manual of the Planes and the Planar Handbook.
Everybody knows that the Lady is six giant squirrels with a headdress, robe, and ring of levitation and illusions. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2011 : 06:12:24
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I think the Lady of Pain is a manifestation of the planes themselves, she is a sort of avatar of Sigil who is affected moment to moment by the ever-changing proximity of all other planar natures as their cosmic orbits move them around (and through?) the infinite spire at the center of the universe. This would explain her singularly focussed yet extremely inconstant behaviour, while it also suggests a possible reason why she and Sigil are seemingly impervious to the overt attentions and influences of planar and divine powers. Her roughly human form is probably just a consensual solipsism formed by the roughly human population of Sigil and beyond.
Either that or she's just a bladeling from Acheron who's somehow assumed the immortal office of Sigil, whether she created Sigil herself or usurped it from the former power(s). |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 31 Dec 2011 06:40:58 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2012 : 01:17:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
<chop>
Also, as a side-note, we know that Shar has her own separate 'Roll of Years' - The black Chronology - and it is not-so-mildly hinted at that Shar is a multi-spheric power (her statue is paramount in the Shadow Temple, above all other shadow-gods) in the 1st Everis Cale series. Her machinations could be broader the any of us realized, and many of these planes-altering events could just be her plans falling into place.
I have a feeling she was behind the rise of 'The Dark Three', and since she rules the Shadowfel, and the Domains of Dread are located therein, and thats where Vecna began his 'Grand Conjunction' scheme... just seems like too many things are related. For all we know, she may have drew Vecna into Ravenloft to first weaken the planer stability. Of course, I think she would have needed help for something of this magnitude... help of a fiendish nature.
I like this theory... do you have any more on The Dark Three, or is this all speculation at this point?
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And who gained the most after the fall of Mytsra?
Why, Paizo, of course!
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In fact, Shar may be the mistress of secrets, but even she could fall prey to the lord of lies. She herself may have just been a pawn in a much larger game. The cosmos is a funny place.
I have a theory similar to this, which I've shared with Paul Kemp in his scroll (link here; see 18 January). It wouldn't be popular with everybody, but it would legitimately explain everything, including the inexplicables.
Edit: Added link. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 25 Jan 2012 01:22:57 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 04:31:16
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So... I've done a bit of research-surfing in response to Markustay's theory about the Spellplague and the "Vecna Incident", inspired by the idea of Shar as a multi-spheric deity, and here's what I found as possible correlates (or even subordinates) in the Greyhawk pantheon (which is even larger than the FR pantheon, even without leaving out all the imported Earth deities that have been worshipped in the Realms in the various print products of four editions):
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Taken from the Greyhawk Wiki:
Meyanok
Meyanok is the Touv god of serpents, poison, discord, darkness, and famine. His symbol is a snake coiled around a skull.
Meyanok is always depicted as a serpent coiled around a skull.
Meyanok was born when the pain of Breeka's childbirth mingled with the darkness. He is the progenitor of Vara, Damaran, and Berna, who hatched from eggs spawned from the mating of Meyanok's anger and lust.
Meyanok, like the other Touv gods, is a greater spirit who dwells within the mortal world.
Meyanok seeks to corrupt the rest of his family and control or destroy their servants. He prefers subterfuge to overt action, as he is outnumbered by the non-evil gods.
Meyanok's shamans and priests are reclusive, avoiding dealing with strangers openly. More commonly they work through agents, many of them ensnared with charm spells, to disrupt civilization and to harm the worshipers of other gods. They have been known to sacrifice humans to their deity. Their favored weaon is the dagger, and they may also wield the atl-atl, hand axe, javelin, short bow, and short sword. On ceremonial occasions they wear snakeskin headdresses or cloaks.
After the pain of birthing the god Katay, the goddess Breeka collapsed in exhaustion, quickly falling asleep. Yet the pain would not leave her, and from the darkness of night and the pain of childbirth was born Meyanok, the diseased serpent. Meyanok festered with hatred and rejection, because of all the first spirits, he was the only one not born under the light of Nola, the sun. Meyanok's frustrated lust mated with his simmering rage, and from this strange coupling three eggs were produced. The first egg hatched to reveal Vara, goddess of fear. From the second egg hatched Damaran, god of vermin, and from the third egg hatched Berna, the goddess of hatred and vengeance. Meyanok sent his young to corrupt the elder gods: Vara wracked her grandmother Breeka with nightmares while she slept; Damaran infested the home of Kundo, his uncle, with crawling and biting vermin; Berna was sent to Xanag, but ended up being redeemed by the beautiful goddess of metal.
Mok'slyk
Mok'slyk is an old Flan name for an entity known as the Serpent, an entity of godlike power believed to be the personification of arcane magic. The Serpent is said to be a member of a group of unfathomably old entities known as the Ancient Brethren, which though similar to gods, are not exactly gods, though some beings honor them as such. The Lady of Pain, Asmodeus, and Jazirian are also sometimes said to belong, or to have once belonged to this group, and supposedly Vecna is a descendant of the Ancient Brethren. There may also be a connection between the Ancient Brethren and the draedens and baernoloths born before the multiverse began.
The Serpent is believed to have personally instructed Vecna in the ways of magic. Vecna's mother, Mazzel, told her son that the Serpent gains its power by devouring the souls of those who honor it.
Other rumors include that the Serpent is a guise of Asmodeus, or that the Serpent doesn't exist at all. Perhaps it is only Vecna's own madness and insight whispering back at him from within the darkness of his own one-eyed skull.
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Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 01 Feb 2012 04:33:56 |
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Sigil - The City of Portals
