Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Forgotten Realms Journals
 General Forgotten Realms Chat
 Favorite Zulkir
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Previous Page | Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 5

MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe

688 Posts

Posted - 20 Oct 2011 :  01:37:46  Show Profile  Visit MrHedgehog's Homepage Send MrHedgehog a Private Message  Reply with Quote
But if Nevron has gone to the lower planes, why would he return to rule thay? He wants to rule in the lower planes if I recall. If as a Mane he still has power (I don't think he does...I think he is a Mane like any other spirit transformed into a mane) he would just ascend the ranks of the Tanar'ri/Demons and not bother with the material world.

Once he was a Mane I don't think he'd have his magic or control over powerful demons, etc.

Edited by - MrHedgehog on 20 Oct 2011 01:46:38
Go to Top of Page

Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 20 Oct 2011 :  04:17:26  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Idamar of Thay

But there are other things to consider besides contingency spells.

If I recall, Nevron had already planned to one day leave the Prime Material Plane to enter the lower planes as a conqueror. Obviously is current situation is different, but my point is he has to have made some sort of preperation as well as doing research. I'm still not willing to believe Nevron is dead yet.

Indeed. He always emphasized that Thay's Civil War was like a good practice for him to someday become a lord in the Abyss.

Every beginning has an end.
Go to Top of Page

Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 20 Oct 2011 :  04:20:29  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog

But if Nevron has gone to the lower planes, why would he return to rule thay? He wants to rule in the lower planes if I recall. If as a Mane he still has power (I don't think he does...I think he is a Mane like any other spirit transformed into a mane) he would just ascend the ranks of the Tanar'ri/Demons and not bother with the material world.

Once he was a Mane I don't think he'd have his magic or control over powerful demons, etc.

I don't think he'd bother going back to Thay. What's the point? But most definitely he would either transform himself back to his original form or possess a fiend's body.

Every beginning has an end.
Go to Top of Page

Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 20 Oct 2011 :  04:25:57  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


You have the right of it. Szass Tam separated Nevron's spirit from his body and shrank it into a mane. It would surely affect his spellcasting, but as we all know, it's the mind that counts most in working magic. Despite the disadvantages, I think he'd manage to save himself. As I previously noted, he could simply trigger a contingency that does not require a verbal command.


Contingencies require conditions to activate however. They are not quickened spells that you can set off by a command word or gesture.

For instance, you could set a contingency teleport on your person to go off when you reach a certain amount of physical damage to your body. Or a contingency heal spell that would instantly heal all damage done to you. But the conditions of the spell going off are specific, and you can only have a small amount of contingency spells before they start to interfere with each other.

I don"t know if anywhere along the lines he was going to think "If my spirit gets wrenched from my body". Which would not get considered by the contingency as "physical damage" and would not set it off.

In any case, from reading that part over a few times, Nevron was in the middle of casting a spell, and Szass Tam used a quickened spell of his own, merely making a clutching gesture, beating Nevron to the spell, and instantly separating his soul from his body. Nevron's spirit was absolutely dumbfounded as Szass cast his next spell within seconds to change him and get rid of him. Even if he had a quickened teleport ready with a thought, would it transport his body which he was separated from? Hard to say.

Well, it is not entirely improbable for the contigency to work under this condition: “extreme harm to myself that it’s impossible to cast a spell.” Or something like that. He’s a Zulkir, privy to some arcane knowledge no ordinary Red Wizard knows or can hope to comprehend. I can imagine such ingenuity in crafting that kind of contingency is within his grasp. One doesn't become and stay a zulkir without a shred of ingenuity in his/her blood.

Every beginning has an end.

Edited by - Dennis on 20 Oct 2011 06:07:15
Go to Top of Page

Therise
Master of Realmslore

1265 Posts

Posted - 20 Oct 2011 :  05:56:59  Show Profile Send Therise a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Conditions for contingencies must be clear and simple when placed with the spell to activate. Complex conditions, those that require a judgment, often fail because the contingency spell might have trouble determining the presence of the specified condition. So they have to be something fairly obvious and unquestionable.

"When it's impossible for me to cast a spell" would be a complex judgment call, which the spell has no way of determining or verifying. As Firestorm said, it must be a condition affecting the mage, not a verbal statement, physical movement, or the like.

Here's a list of appropriate conditions: http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/conditions.htm

Disabled, helpless, dying, pinned, etc... all of those are appropriate conditions for a contingency.

It would seem rather strange for a mage of high level to NOT have contingencies for many of those conditions, particularly a zulkir. Teleporting to a safehouse or to a friend's or loyal minion's home, something on that order.


4E Realms was awful, but it's water under the Boareskyr Bridge. Let's make 5E Realms truly shine!

Edited by - Therise on 20 Oct 2011 06:02:57
Go to Top of Page

Firestorm
Senior Scribe

Canada
801 Posts

Posted - 20 Oct 2011 :  06:35:10  Show Profile Send Firestorm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


You have the right of it. Szass Tam separated Nevron's spirit from his body and shrank it into a mane. It would surely affect his spellcasting, but as we all know, it's the mind that counts most in working magic. Despite the disadvantages, I think he'd manage to save himself. As I previously noted, he could simply trigger a contingency that does not require a verbal command.


Contingencies require conditions to activate however. They are not quickened spells that you can set off by a command word or gesture.

For instance, you could set a contingency teleport on your person to go off when you reach a certain amount of physical damage to your body. Or a contingency heal spell that would instantly heal all damage done to you. But the conditions of the spell going off are specific, and you can only have a small amount of contingency spells before they start to interfere with each other.

I don"t know if anywhere along the lines he was going to think "If my spirit gets wrenched from my body". Which would not get considered by the contingency as "physical damage" and would not set it off.

In any case, from reading that part over a few times, Nevron was in the middle of casting a spell, and Szass Tam used a quickened spell of his own, merely making a clutching gesture, beating Nevron to the spell, and instantly separating his soul from his body. Nevron's spirit was absolutely dumbfounded as Szass cast his next spell within seconds to change him and get rid of him. Even if he had a quickened teleport ready with a thought, would it transport his body which he was separated from? Hard to say.

Well, it is not entirely improbable for the contigency to work under this condition: “extreme harm to myself that it’s impossible to cast a spell.” Or something like that. He’s a Zulkir, privy to some arcane knowledge no ordinary Red Wizard knows or can hope to comprehend. I can imagine such ingenuity in crafting that kind of contingency is within his grasp. One doesn't become and stay a zulkir without a shred of ingenuity in his/her blood.



Contingencies almost work like wish spells tho. You need to be extremely specific, or the spell may be a perversion of your intent, so you have to keep it simple.
Go to Top of Page

Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 20 Oct 2011 :  06:50:20  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

Contingencies almost work like wish spells tho. You need to be extremely specific, or the spell may be a perversion of your intent, so you have to keep it simple.

One possible condition of Neveron's contingency: Possess a vessel [a pre-prepared body of a bound fiend/Red Wizard] if my spirit is ripped out from my body. How is that for specific?

It wasn’t mentioned that his transformation to a mane completely addled his mind/spirit; so it’s still possible that he held vestiges of his former personality, which means he may be able to wrest control of some of his spells. For all we know, given that a zulkir's mind is too difficult to trample, it's likely that while Szass Tam succeeded in transmuting Nevron into a mane, the Zulkir of Conjuration nevertheless was able to keep his mind intact. As I noted previously, even if Szass Tam already tested his spell to be foolproof, his "lab rat" was not Nevron himself and so might work differently on him.

Every beginning has an end.

Edited by - Dennis on 20 Oct 2011 08:35:11
Go to Top of Page

Therise
Master of Realmslore

1265 Posts

Posted - 20 Oct 2011 :  08:00:00  Show Profile Send Therise a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

Contingencies almost work like wish spells tho. You need to be extremely specific, or the spell may be a perversion of your intent, so you have to keep it simple.

One possible condition of Neveron's contingency: Possess a vessel [a pre-prepared body of a bound fiend/Red Wizard] if my spirit is ripped out from my body. How is that for specific?


Assuming that the disengaged spirit still has a will and can act once it's "ripped out", what contingent spell would you use to accomplish this "possession" act? Contingent spells can be no higher than 6th level if you're using 3E/d20 rules. You'd also need to explain how a "ripped out soul" doesn't cause instant death and transition to the fugue plain.

(And by the way, manes are rendered "nearly mindless" with their transition to the afterlife, dropping to an Int 3 and Wis 3. Even if they had a tiny flash of memory of their former existence, they could not cast spells or act with any real intended will.)


4E Realms was awful, but it's water under the Boareskyr Bridge. Let's make 5E Realms truly shine!

Edited by - Therise on 20 Oct 2011 08:21:51
Go to Top of Page

Firestorm
Senior Scribe

Canada
801 Posts

Posted - 20 Oct 2011 :  14:00:09  Show Profile Send Firestorm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

Contingencies almost work like wish spells tho. You need to be extremely specific, or the spell may be a perversion of your intent, so you have to keep it simple.

One possible condition of Neveron's contingency: Possess a vessel [a pre-prepared body of a bound fiend/Red Wizard] if my spirit is ripped out from my body. How is that for specific?

It wasn’t mentioned that his transformation to a mane completely addled his mind/spirit; so it’s still possible that he held vestiges of his former personality, which means he may be able to wrest control of some of his spells. For all we know, given that a zulkir's mind is too difficult to trample, it's likely that while Szass Tam succeeded in transmuting Nevron into a mane, the Zulkir of Conjuration nevertheless was able to keep his mind intact. As I noted previously, even if Szass Tam already tested his spell to be foolproof, his "lab rat" was not Nevron himself and so might work differently on him.


But the thing is, why would anyone have a contingency like that? People can only have 1 or two contingency spells cast upon themselves at a time and unlike Elminster, most people can only have 1 or two triggers to the contingency. I doubt the first thing they think might happen is the most unlikely scenario of their spirit being forcefully ripped out. Most people are going to set their contingencies to things like lethal physical damage.

Second, most of the Zulkir's were largely taxed of their spells by this point from both battling Malark, and then Szass Tam. When taxed, they need to relearn their spells through spellbooks(Well, Wizards do, not sorcerers). He was separated from his body, and thus, his spell components, books, magical items and well, his body. Any spells he had prepared through trigger words left would probably not function due to, well, the specific cadence required since manes can only produce incoherent shrieking babble. If he tried to cast a verbal spell and failed, that spell is immediately lost to him and he must relearn it. Same applies to somatic spells(Spells requiring gestures) if he fails to do the gesture properly he loses the spell, which is very likely given that he is now in a completely different slower bloated little body.
Go to Top of Page

Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 20 Oct 2011 :  16:09:54  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

A wizard can only have one or two contingency spells cast upon themselves at a time? That may be the rule in the games, however, do remember that novels, while they retain a certain semblance of the game rules, do not necessarily adhere to them, and can most definitely scrap the rules in preference to the plot's needs.

I am not saying that what I suggest is exactly the most logical thing that Nevron had done, but it is plausible.

Every beginning has an end.
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6094 Posts

Posted - 20 Oct 2011 :  18:43:08  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Ed himself said that the first Zulkir of Necromancy, Tarabbas Mroound, disappeared in his own volition soon after being named zulkir.




Thank you VERY much for this response. I had been looking for any information on who were the first Zulkirs. This led me to a quote from THO last year where apparently Ed in 1991 made a list of them and it was given out at GenCon. I'm reprinting it here, because some of it showed up at the start of this thread, but it was missing the stuff that said who was part of the original Zulkirate and who came later.... and I'd like to make some suppositions based on later data that came about that might somewhat conflict or complement it. Please forgive if my modifying to try to give quote credit isn't syntactically correct.

quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

TIYARRA ZULKIRATE (= Of the History/Lore of the Zulkirs)
{Ed Greenwood, 1991}


The zulkirs began as Thayd’s inner circle of trusted “loyals” (in their hearts, most of them were anything but, but only one—Ilkrim Hlannadar, better known to Thayan folklore as “the Dragondevoured,” thanks to Thayd’s swift and ruthless reaction to his treachery—ever dared defy him openly). These “loyals” served the founder of Thay as his personal lieutenants, who led Thayan warbands, acted as his messengers, enforcers, and assassins, and helped keep Thayd the dominant wizard in the northern lands wrested from Mulhorand and Unther, and home to many independent mages of power, until the realm of Thay was consolidated.
Originally there were seven zulkirs, then six and five through battle losses. It was only after the death of Thayd that their numbers became set, and linked to specific “schools” of wizardry.
When Thayd fell, a bitter struggle for power followed, in which scores of ambitious wizards perished. Eventually the survivors, brought to reluctant obedience by threat of being trapped in the “Escalthar’s Everlasting Curse” spell that would shapechange them every few breaths, uncontrollably, for the rest of their lives, met with the wizard Escalthar (who had devised that spell, and cast it upon most of those survivors) atop Laltharr, a bare crag (later blasted to rubble in a spell-duel) in southwestern Thay.
This moot later became known as the Council of the Black Star (after the black star mage-sigil used by Escalthar). At the Council it was agreed that there would eight zulkirs, each of them a master of a school of wizardry: Abjuration, Conjuration, Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion, Necromancy, and Transmutation. (Over the years, the zulkirs of Thay have been almost exclusively Thayan, and male humans, but no zulkirate has any formal requirements of residency, race, or gender.)
Outsiders have been told different wild tales about this or that zulkir, or how the ruling structure of Thay came about, but this is—so far as Mystra has confirmed—the truth.
Elminster and Khelben believe they have uncovered evidence that Escalthar—who mysteriously vanished, shortly after the Council, and has never been seen since (though there are many rumors and fear-whispered tales, down the years since, of his being seen by dying Red Wizards or watching crucial events in the unfolding governance of Thay) was either the god Azuth in disguise, or a pawn of Azuth at the time of the Council, but neither Azuth nor Mystra will confirm this. According to the Old Mage, the two deities, whenever asked about such matters, “merely smile.”
Only Szass Tam has held office (formally, “zulkirate,” though this term has been rarely used in the last two centuries) among the zulkirs in any consistent manner since 1300.
The “First Zulkirate” or initial eight zulkirs, appointed at the Council in the autumn of 1030 DR, were:

Hahlomede Teeos (Abjuration): known as “Blackwyrm” for his everpresent tattered black robes and cloaks, that rendered him immune to dragon attacks and made dragons actively avoid him, Teeos loved to act mysterious and to track down lost treasures, old magics, and deceptions, this last sort of hunting quickly making him very unpopular with many Thayans; he became the feared, tireless, and increasingly hated “investigator” of the First Zulkirate

Tlantros Tulhoond (Conjuration): an aloof, private man who feared attack at all times, and was therefore always ready for battle, with schemes and “hanging” spells galore ready as both defenses and deterrents, in addition to the monsters he could magically whisk from elsewhere to his side; a sophisticated lover of music, wines, subtle behaviour, and “refinement” who opposed Thay’s ever-greater reliance on slavery and the plundering of its resources at the expense of rejuvenating the land (he hated mines and quarries, preferring that Thay take what it needed from other lands by conquest or magical seizure and transportation)

Zarhandro Laeluth (Enchantment): a fat, jovial man who deceived his fellow zulkirs—and everyone else he had any contact with, in life—as much as possible; made frequent use of doubles to make it appear that he was in one place while he was busy in another; often bubbled with gleeful laughter as he tricked or slew or took cruel revenges; trusted by very few, and feared by many, especially tharchions (whom he was known to have personally slain scores of, over the unfolding years, many by torture); a hedonist who loved exotic foods and long, gluttonous feasts

Dlueae Sharshyndree (Evocation): the first female zulkir, Dlueae [pronounced “Dul-LOO-ay”] was a curvaceous woman with a melodious voice and alluring walk—who also had a coarse-featured and mannish face; she “had to shave like a man” and had acquired several disfiguring facial scars in her youthful adventuring career, and as a result customarily hid her face behind full head masks, which she sometimes augmented with a warrior’s battle-helm; a bold and calm battle-leader and a good tactician, she served Thay well in warfare and built ever-increasing influence over her fellow zulkirs, both by taking them as lovers and befriending them with aid and assistance for their personal projects, and by often stating and refining successful policies for Thay that she got her fellow zulkirs to support (and that they therefore took pride in); a mediator and peacemaker among her fellow zulkirs

Yaerind Mahl (Illusion): an inscrutable man of few words and fewer direct answers, stances, or clear statements, who customarily cloaked his true appearance with magical disguises, and preferred to spend much time roaming Thay appearing as various creatures, to spy and learn (and sometimes strike down treachery—which he widely defined as “anything he disliked”—where and when he found it); was the first zulkir to force many apprentices and dupes to pretend to be him, so they perished in attacks meant to slay him, so he could strike down those who’d thought they’d killed the Zulkir of Illusion; possessed a pair of golden lions (figurines of wondrous power) that hunted and slew at his command

Tarabbas Mroound (Necromancy): a tall, sardonic, cadaver-thin man who “disappeared into bones” at will, and apparently did so permanently, soon after being named zulkir, apparently of his own volition and not due to any attack launched by a rival or would-be successor; many Thayan night-rumors insist he lives on, still, watching over Thay and covertly bringing misfortune to those he dislikes, whilst aiding those he favors

Kulvur Naraelond (Transmutation): a sly, witty, smart-mouthed trickster of a man, handsome and acrobatic, who was trusted by few; most men loathed him, and most women found him irresistible; a hedonist who seemingly cared more for enjoyment of food, drink, lovemaking, and diversions—even elaborate pranks—more than anything else in life; made many foes very quickly, and did not last long in office (or life)



The only complete roster of the zulkirate known to outlanders (non-Thayans) after the First Zulkirate but before the 1350s DR, comes from an anonymous slave’s account, TWELVE WINTERS UNDER THE LASH, that was smuggled out of Thay in late 1300 DR. It gives a partial roster of the zulkirate, as follows:

Eldryn Lammaraster (Abjuration): an old, bitter, grim pessimist who saw treachery and would-be successors around ever corner, in every shadow, and behind every door—and prepared himself accordingly, between manyfold layers of defensive magics; his specialty was spells—many of which died with him—that had nasty counter-attacks built into them, triggered by their defensive activation and not by the caster having to trigger them

Balineth Skroun (Conjuration): a toad-faced, forbidding man who used intimidation and prepared “stage tricks” of magic to cow many a rival or defiant underling, Skroun hid well his deep love of Thay and his real loyalty to his fellow zulkirs; over time, became as trusted by his fellow zulkirs as any holder of a zulkirate has ever been, and with good reason; a true “team player” who looked ahead and acted for the betterment of Thay, beneath a surly public mask

Iyrith Telgahlagar (Enchantment): described as a darkly handsome, bearded man who was urbane, soft-spoken, and a master strategist and diplomat, the most dominant of the zulkirs through his skilled forging of alliances with his fellow zulkirs and among the tharchions and tharchionesses; ruthless in slaying rivals who act against him, often through spells delivered by bats that fly under his direction; once described by a Red Wizard as “Asmodeus among us,” and probably the closest of any individual to being the true ruler of Thay, at the time

Uldreth Korroth (Evocation): a grossly fat, lewd, aggressive man known for having layer upon layer of backup spells and schemes, and for being a jovial friend to all zulkirs, and a cruel, ruthless trickster to tharchions, tharchionesses, and all Thayans of lower station whom he had contact with; enjoyed frequent personal slayings of the “spectacular butchery” sort

Mahlind Yarrr (Transmutation): a short, dark-haired, slender man of very few words, who always dressed in crimson robes and was very efficient and a master of foreseeing or anticipating events, treacheries against him, and likely outcomes, and preparing for them; almost always on the “winning side” in policy disputes among the zulkirs, who made few fierce foes and enriched himself greatly with trade outside Thay involving manipulated agents and dupes, in sales of drugs and gems, and prostitution


So saith Ed. His mention of the 1350s DR of course refers to all the published Realmslore (FR6/DREAMS OF THE RED WIZARDS, RED MAGIC, and everything since) that has made the identities, activities, aims, and roster changes of the zulkirs of that era clear to all interested scribes.
So here you are . . . enjoy!
love to all,
THO



Hi again, all.
Thauramarth, Thayd survived as an undead sentience (perhaps unique; Ed hasn't said) that could possess living bodies (mammals of all sorts), but "burned them out" rapidly (a matter of two tendays at most). He clung to the company of his lieutenants . . . but eventually vanished, either destroyed by one of them or "lost" when a body burned out "under him" when he couldn't reach another to attack it...or for some other reason or cause, that PERHAPS has him lurking to this day, awaiting a chance to rise again...

So saith Ed, paraphrased by me.
love,
THO




OK, so from the above we can establish a few things. First, this was written before Spellbound. Therefore, Ythazz Buvaar isn't listed. However, we now "know" that Ythazz was a guiding force in both freeing Thay and forming the Zulkirate. I had previously tried to write up some history for Ythazz, and I believe I had him set as an evoker (because other lore indicated that he might not be the first Zulkir of Necromancy), but the above would seem to indicate he was a diviner (since Diviner is the only Zulkir not named as one of the original Zulkirs).

Secondly, whereas the story in spellbound doesn't mention Thayd as being involved at all, this seems to indicate that Thayd was also leading the rebellion along with Ythazz. Some would say Ythazz was Thayd, but this kind of lacks "zing" because why wouldn't he use his own name. Someone else on that thread said they liked the idea of Thayd being a vestige. NOW THIS I CAN GET BEHIND. The above indicates that "Thayd was an undead sentience (perhaps unique) that possessed bodies and burned them out". I suggest that perhaps Thayd indeed was/is a vestige who provides more "power" than his binding level would suggest, but at the cost that his binding check is extremely high. As a result, he could more easily gain influence over an individual, and perhaps when they attempted to deny him his influence he could give a little rougher penalty (how, I don't even begin to posit, but just ponder the possibilities... they get more power, at the expense of having to listen to him more. If they get tired of it, they quit binding him). In doing this, given enough anima mages familiar with binding magic (who may have died off or were hunted down in the hundred'ish intervening years between Thay's rebellion and the formation of the Zulkirate), there could have been several individuals at one time "channeling" Thayd's vestige and giving guidance to the country.

Maybe some won't see this idea as intriguing as I do, but I truly appreciate this lore.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 20 Oct 2011 :  18:55:34  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

I do find it intriguing. Perhaps once or twice he had possessed another zulkir, then moved on when the zulkir's body eventually expired.

Every beginning has an end.
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6094 Posts

Posted - 20 Oct 2011 :  21:24:46  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


A wizard can only have one or two contingency spells cast upon themselves at a time? That may be the rule in the games, however, do remember that novels, while they retain a certain semblance of the game rules, do not necessarily adhere to them, and can most definitely scrap the rules in preference to the plot's needs.

I am not saying that what I suggest is exactly the most logical thing that Nevron had done, but it is plausible.



Also would depend on if he has the craft contingent spell feat, which is common in the East. If that's the case, he might have a whole heck of a lot of contingencies. Their cost can get retributive though.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6094 Posts

Posted - 20 Oct 2011 :  21:30:38  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


I do find it intriguing. Perhaps once or twice he had possessed another zulkir, then moved on when the zulkir's body eventually expired.



Only if it was prior to "the Zulkirate" being formed as the form of governance. The history as written states that it wasn't finalized to its current form until after Thayd "fell". Now, does "fell" mean noone was binding him anymore (if he was a vestige).
Or, if you select the idea that he was indeed some kind of possessing spirit... which actually may have other possibilities... maybe he had some kind of physical form. Isn't their some kind of prestige class for fiendish being to possess other forms? What if he'd been one of those mages who over time had infused himself with abyssal or hellish energies. I know the picture of him in the Grand history of the realms (or at least I suppose that's his picture) looks very fiendish.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

Therise
Master of Realmslore

1265 Posts

Posted - 20 Oct 2011 :  21:34:46  Show Profile Send Therise a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Also would depend on if he has the craft contingent spell feat, which is common in the East. If that's the case, he might have a whole heck of a lot of contingencies. Their cost can get retributive though.


No offense, but... ouch, that's one of the most broken mechanics for casters that's been invented.

I realize that novels often go beyond game rules for narrative/story purposes, but that's one of those feats that should never be allowed IMO.

4E Realms was awful, but it's water under the Boareskyr Bridge. Let's make 5E Realms truly shine!
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6094 Posts

Posted - 20 Oct 2011 :  21:49:01  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


I do find it intriguing. Perhaps once or twice he had possessed another zulkir, then moved on when the zulkir's body eventually expired.



Only if it was prior to "the Zulkirate" being formed as the form of governance. The history as written states that it wasn't finalized to its current form until after Thayd "fell". Now, does "fell" mean noone was binding him anymore (if he was a vestige).
Or, if you select the idea that he was indeed some kind of possessing spirit... which actually may have other possibilities... maybe he had some kind of physical form. Isn't their some kind of prestige class for fiendish being to possess other forms? What if he'd been one of those mages who over time had infused himself with abyssal or hellish energies. I know the picture of him in the Grand history of the realms (or at least I suppose that's his picture) looks very fiendish.



Although, I'm still leaning more heavily towards vestige. The fact that he was a theurgist adept just fits so well with the lore of the theurgian society of Pact Magic users. Throw in that Pholzubbalt ("the boneyard" or "the mausoleum city") was established a little over 100 years prior to Thayd's uprising by "Mulhorandi Necromancers", and you may have the place where the Theurgist society had their hidden library. And nothing says they "built" the mausoleum city. Could they have stumbled over a treasure trove of lore of all kinds, possibly this had even been a dark elven city founded by some of the dark elves who had been taught by Wendonai at Dun-Tharos (aka Narathmault)

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

Firestorm
Senior Scribe

Canada
801 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2011 :  01:10:01  Show Profile Send Firestorm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


A wizard can only have one or two contingency spells cast upon themselves at a time? That may be the rule in the games, however, do remember that novels, while they retain a certain semblance of the game rules, do not necessarily adhere to them, and can most definitely scrap the rules in preference to the plot's needs.

I am not saying that what I suggest is exactly the most logical thing that Nevron had done, but it is plausible.


If Wizards could cast contingencies for every possible scenario, then they would never die. And that would just be stupid.

I can"t think of a single book where a character had more than one contingency spell, let alone the game mechanics.
Go to Top of Page

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6428 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2011 :  03:44:11  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A wizard in 2E could have a contingency, a chain contingency, a handful of persistent spell effects, any number of permanent ones, and all sorts of spells like Elminster's evasion which basically function as special-case (escape) contingency magics. Not to mention whatever they've managed to wish on themselves, or any magical items which automatically activate contingencies as part of their operation.

Firestorm stated it best: if wizards could cast contingencies for every possible scenario, then they would never die. Wizards do die, so obviously the wizards or the contingencies must have limitations.

[/Ayrik]
Go to Top of Page

Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2011 :  04:07:34  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


I do find it intriguing. Perhaps once or twice he had possessed another zulkir, then moved on when the zulkir's body eventually expired.


Only if it was prior to "the Zulkirate" being formed as the form of governance. The history as written states that it wasn't finalized to its current form until after Thayd "fell". Now, does "fell" mean noone was binding him anymore (if he was a vestige).
Or, if you select the idea that he was indeed some kind of possessing spirit... which actually may have other possibilities... maybe he had some kind of physical form. Isn't their some kind of prestige class for fiendish being to possess other forms? What if he'd been one of those mages who over time had infused himself with abyssal or hellish energies. I know the picture of him in the Grand history of the realms (or at least I suppose that's his picture) looks very fiendish.

One more possibility: Perhaps he still lives, but his power is too diminished that, despite his desire to lend aid to either Szass Tam or the united Zulkirs, he wasn't able to help end the Civil War. He might be wandering in Shadowfell, recuperating...just like the Imaskaran archwizard Madryoch...biding his time till he is once again powerful enough to possess a formidable wizard/fiend.

Every beginning has an end.
Go to Top of Page

Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2011 :  04:12:43  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


A wizard can only have one or two contingency spells cast upon themselves at a time? That may be the rule in the games, however, do remember that novels, while they retain a certain semblance of the game rules, do not necessarily adhere to them, and can most definitely scrap the rules in preference to the plot's needs.

I am not saying that what I suggest is exactly the most logical thing that Nevron had done, but it is plausible.


If Wizards could cast contingencies for every possible scenario, then they would never die.
Unlikely. Some contingencies may fail, [like Rivalen's, when he was fighting the green dragon wrecking havoc in Selgaunt. He would have died had Brennus not directed the power of Sakkors's mythallar to his sword.] But in Nevron's case, I'd like to think his didn't fail.

Every beginning has an end.
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6094 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2011 :  17:02:26  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Therise

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Also would depend on if he has the craft contingent spell feat, which is common in the East. If that's the case, he might have a whole heck of a lot of contingencies. Their cost can get retributive though.


No offense, but... ouch, that's one of the most broken mechanics for casters that's been invented.

I realize that novels often go beyond game rules for narrative/story purposes, but that's one of those feats that should never be allowed IMO.



Broken mechanically if you aren't actually considering the costs. Start doing the math for how much it costs to make some 5th lvl contingencies and you'll quickly see why its not something that you do all the time. Now, having a few low level spells that you can have come up... that's doable.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6094 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2011 :  17:18:17  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


I do find it intriguing. Perhaps once or twice he had possessed another zulkir, then moved on when the zulkir's body eventually expired.


Only if it was prior to "the Zulkirate" being formed as the form of governance. The history as written states that it wasn't finalized to its current form until after Thayd "fell". Now, does "fell" mean noone was binding him anymore (if he was a vestige).
Or, if you select the idea that he was indeed some kind of possessing spirit... which actually may have other possibilities... maybe he had some kind of physical form. Isn't their some kind of prestige class for fiendish being to possess other forms? What if he'd been one of those mages who over time had infused himself with abyssal or hellish energies. I know the picture of him in the Grand history of the realms (or at least I suppose that's his picture) looks very fiendish.

One more possibility: Perhaps he still lives, but his power is too diminished that, despite his desire to lend aid to either Szass Tam or the united Zulkirs, he wasn't able to help end the Civil War. He might be wandering in Shadowfell, recuperating...just like the Imaskaran archwizard Madryoch...biding his time till he is once again powerful enough to possess a formidable wizard/fiend.



Hmmm, might be interesting as well. What if he is indeed a vestige (just because I like that idea), but someone made a vestige phylactery and at the same time developed an arcane spell like a "phylactery trap" like you'd use on a lich to keep it bound in its phylactery. Said spell was modified to work with the Vestige Phylactery. Or maybe he's that undead sentience and there's some kind of soul trap out there that has him bound into something.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

Firestorm
Senior Scribe

Canada
801 Posts

Posted - 22 Oct 2011 :  00:32:18  Show Profile Send Firestorm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


A wizard can only have one or two contingency spells cast upon themselves at a time? That may be the rule in the games, however, do remember that novels, while they retain a certain semblance of the game rules, do not necessarily adhere to them, and can most definitely scrap the rules in preference to the plot's needs.

I am not saying that what I suggest is exactly the most logical thing that Nevron had done, but it is plausible.


If Wizards could cast contingencies for every possible scenario, then they would never die.
Unlikely. Some contingencies may fail, [like Rivalen's, when he was fighting the green dragon wrecking havoc in Selgaunt. He would have died had Brennus not directed the power of Sakkors's mythallar to his sword.] But in Nevron's case, I'd like to think his didn't fail.


Rivalen's contingencies did not fail. If he even had any cast.
The dragon cast an anti magic area of effect trying to use his physical mass to finish rivalen. Rivalen prevailed by casting a powerful abjuration to counter it before hitting the ground. The dragon then tried to attack him again and failed. Rivalen then asked, while invulnerable to physical attacks, for the power of the mythallar to end it more quickly.


Edited by - Firestorm on 22 Oct 2011 01:39:01
Go to Top of Page

Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 22 Oct 2011 :  15:57:02  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

I am too lazy at the moment to grab the book and review that scene, so let's say you have the right of it. Still, the truth remains the same: some contingencies may fail.

Every beginning has an end.
Go to Top of Page

Firestorm
Senior Scribe

Canada
801 Posts

Posted - 22 Oct 2011 :  17:32:28  Show Profile Send Firestorm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


I am too lazy at the moment to grab the book and review that scene, so let's say you have the right of it. Still, the truth remains the same: some contingencies may fail.


I am right. I just read that part :)

And yes, some contingencies may fail. But in this case, it is more likely that he did not have a contingency cast for that particular fate. Since contingencies are higher level spells and are not permanent(They must be cast that day), it is more likely that he wanted to save more of his higher level spell slots for combat since, as Szass Tam stated to Aoth, the Zulkir's are in a win or lose thay forever situation.

he might have had a contingency cast, but not for that exact circumstance, and as stated, they have to be very specifically tailored.
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 5 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Previous Page | Next Page
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2017 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000