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Seravin
Senior Scribe

Canada
793 Posts

Posted - 17 Oct 2011 :  20:45:09  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The alternative Thayan war described in this post is infinitely better than what happened, in my opinion! Also how the Spellplague may have influenced the Zulkirs' control over Thay...or a slave revolt during it and the reclaimation of the courntry by the Tharchions...*sigh*

Did I mention today that the 4th edition Realms kinda stinks to me? No? okay.
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 17 Oct 2011 :  20:48:50  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Given that some pre-Szass Tam zulkirs just vanished without trace, as I conjectured before, it's possible they have been acting as Hidden Guardians and one day will say enough is enough and kick the lich lord out.

Every beginning has an end.
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe

688 Posts

Posted - 18 Oct 2011 :  08:25:16  Show Profile  Visit MrHedgehog's Homepage Send MrHedgehog a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't like that it was all the Zulkirs (and the Church of Kossuth...and every church except the Church of Bane?) vs. Szass Tam - he shouldn't alone have been that powerful imo. How the factions are described in Spellbound / Dreams of the Red Wizards is more of how
it should have played out. The different kinds of magic should have been able to balance each other out. As it appears to me undead are susceptible to so many things and during the Civil War all the other 7 schools (and the Church of Kossuth) would have focused their energy on combating undead. The magic he somehow had was really over the top when other spellcasters are supposed to be as powerful, similarly powerful, or even more powerful but never accomplish such feats. Why are all of his minions bound to him by magic, but it doesn't seem like the Zulkir of Enchantment's are? etc. etc. I enjoyed the novels but they were easy to criticize in the realm of internal consistency. Granted he killed the Zulkir of Transmutation so he wouldn't find out his plan to unmake the world - I still think one school shouldn't have been able to defeat all the rest just because people think the undead are cool.

In the wake of Szss Tam failing to unmake the world I think he should be brought low by many united forces. But I don't think it will happen because WotC seems to want a lich king just like (AKA to rip off the popularity of) Warcraft / World of Warcraft :(

A more logical civil war would have gone something like this:


Transmutation
Necromancy
Evocation
Church of Bane

vs.

Abjuration
Enchantment
Conjuration
Church of Kossuth

Neutral or flip floppy

Illusion
Divination
Other Churches

Possibly also with potential Zulkirs in every school switching sides. If you want to rule and are a necromancer, why wouldn't you switch sides? And vice versa.

Edited by - MrHedgehog on 18 Oct 2011 08:59:14
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 18 Oct 2011 :  09:07:06  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog

I don't like that it was all the Zulkirs (and the Church of Kossuth...and every church except the Church of Bane?) vs. Szass Tam - he shouldn't alone have been that powerful imo. How the factions are described in Spellbound / Dreams of the Red Wizards is more of how
it should have played out. The different kinds of magic should have been able to balance each other out.

I would like to note that it was not just sheer power that won him his crown. The Spellplague made magic unreliable. Despite their might, the zulkirs and their Red Wizard underlings found it difficult to cast most of their spells. Even Nevron himself, when he attempted to summon a myrmyxicus, failed at first, not by lack of concentration nor power, but due merely to the unreliability of the Art that time. Szass Tam, on the other hand, had Bane's help. Bane enabled him to work around the limitations of the shattered Weave, and through a magical mental web, Szass Tam was able to share such insight to his lackeys.

Every beginning has an end.

Edited by - Dennis on 18 Oct 2011 09:24:27
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Nightseer
Seeker

45 Posts

Posted - 18 Oct 2011 :  11:09:56  Show Profile Send Nightseer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Szass Tam. Enjoyable chap.

Shar!
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Seravin
Senior Scribe

Canada
793 Posts

Posted - 18 Oct 2011 :  20:32:12  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
In the wake of Szss Tam failing to unmake the world I think he should be brought low by many united forces. But I don't think it will happen because WotC seems to want a lich king just like (AKA to rip off the popularity of) Warcraft / World of Warcraft :(


So true. So sadly true.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6094 Posts

Posted - 18 Oct 2011 :  22:18:58  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin

quote:
In the wake of Szss Tam failing to unmake the world I think he should be brought low by many united forces. But I don't think it will happen because WotC seems to want a lich king just like (AKA to rip off the popularity of) Warcraft / World of Warcraft :(


So true. So sadly true.



Ah, I won't give WoW that much credit. Nearly every major fantasy campaign world at one point or another has has some major either fiendish or undead empire (or in some cases both.... after all, Narfell favored Orcus, lord of the undead). What I would have found more interesting is if they started something akin to what was done in the sword & sorcery campaign world. There they had 2 necromantic societies. One was inclined to very "clean" undead which were used to support the society of the living. Disease was worried about and what not, but their laws were very strict... when you died, your body was owned by the government, etc.... That could have been the "new Thay" without Tam (or that could be the reflection of necromancy's role in a new Thay). Then Tam could have been running a necromantic society similar to what he currently has.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Idamar of Thay
Seeker

19 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2011 :  00:07:56  Show Profile Send Idamar of Thay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My vote would be for Nevron. He has reached unheard of levels of arrogance and overconfidence that just makes me want to root for the guy. He may have been transformed into a mane, but unless Tam did something else to Nevron, that means the Abyss has just welcomed a new small insignificant mane....that happens to control an army of demons. He knows the name of many powerful denizens of the abyss and even as a mane could redo the rituals of binding. Heck, being a master summoner, if anyone knows how to open a breach to return to the Prime Material Plane, it's Nevron.
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2011 :  01:49:20  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Magic can work differently in the Nine Hells. For all we know, the moment Nevron was translocated to hell, Szass Tam's spell suddenly expired.

Every beginning has an end.
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe

Canada
801 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2011 :  13:24:49  Show Profile Send Firestorm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Magic can work differently in the Nine Hells. For all we know, the moment Nevron was translocated to hell, Szass Tam's spell suddenly expired.


Knowing Szass Tam's sense of irony, I suspect he planned that spell and tested it beforehand to make sure Nevron got his just deserts for opposing him.
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe

Canada
801 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2011 :  13:27:27  Show Profile Send Firestorm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Given that some pre-Szass Tam zulkirs just vanished without trace, as I conjectured before, it's possible they have been acting as Hidden Guardians and one day will say enough is enough and kick the lich lord out.


I don't think so personally. But to each his own.
In my world, The one's who disappeared were killed. Zulkir's above all always wanted power and prestige and would not willingly give up their titles. Witness all the remaining Zulkir's spending 90 years just plotting ways to get back to Thay and regain what they have lost.

Those sorts so not strike me as the types to work from the shadows when they have so much more power in Thay out in the open.
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader

USA
3068 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2011 :  13:50:38  Show Profile Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Magic can work differently in the Nine Hells. For all we know, the moment Nevron was translocated to hell, Szass Tam's spell suddenly expired.


Knowing Szass Tam's sense of irony, I suspect he planned that spell and tested it beforehand to make sure Nevron got his just deserts for opposing him.



I did some extensive research and discovered that 1,459,752 Manes are slaughtered each day. I don't think Nevron is coming back

Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin

Be my friend on Goodreads.com: http://www.goodreads.com/user/show/6751111-brian
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2011 :  14:59:45  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478

quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Magic can work differently in the Nine Hells. For all we know, the moment Nevron was translocated to hell, Szass Tam's spell suddenly expired.


Knowing Szass Tam's sense of irony, I suspect he planned that spell and tested it beforehand to make sure Nevron got his just deserts for opposing him.


I did some extensive research and discovered that 1,459,752 Manes are slaughtered each day. I don't think Nevron is coming back

4,572 wizards die/are killed each day. But Aoth lives. [Even though he's always been in the thick of realms-shattering wars.]

Every beginning has an end.
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader

USA
3068 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2011 :  15:03:03  Show Profile Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478

quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Magic can work differently in the Nine Hells. For all we know, the moment Nevron was translocated to hell, Szass Tam's spell suddenly expired.


Knowing Szass Tam's sense of irony, I suspect he planned that spell and tested it beforehand to make sure Nevron got his just deserts for opposing him.


I did some extensive research and discovered that 1,459,752 Manes are slaughtered each day. I don't think Nevron is coming back

4,572 wizards die/are killed each day. But Aoth lives. [Even though he's always been in the thick of realms-shattering wars.]



Ah Aoth, old blue-eyes himself

Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin

Be my friend on Goodreads.com: http://www.goodreads.com/user/show/6751111-brian
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2011 :  15:03:03  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Magic can work differently in the Nine Hells. For all we know, the moment Nevron was translocated to hell, Szass Tam's spell suddenly expired.


Knowing Szass Tam's sense of irony, I suspect he planned that spell and tested it beforehand to make sure Nevron got his just deserts for opposing him.

But the lab rat he used to test the spell's effectiveness [or lack thereof] was not Nevron, and therefore didn't possess enough magic that might undo the spell.

Every beginning has an end.
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader

USA
3068 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2011 :  15:04:50  Show Profile Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Magic can work differently in the Nine Hells. For all we know, the moment Nevron was translocated to hell, Szass Tam's spell suddenly expired.


Knowing Szass Tam's sense of irony, I suspect he planned that spell and tested it beforehand to make sure Nevron got his just deserts for opposing him.

But the lab rat he used to test the spell's effectiveness [or lack thereof] was not Nevron, and therefore didn't possess enough magic that might undo the spell.



Would a polymorphed Nevron still have complete access to the magic he used as an archmage in human form??

Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin

Be my friend on Goodreads.com: http://www.goodreads.com/user/show/6751111-brian
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2011 :  15:09:26  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Given that some pre-Szass Tam zulkirs just vanished without trace, as I conjectured before, it's possible they have been acting as Hidden Guardians and one day will say enough is enough and kick the lich lord out.


I don't think so personally. But to each his own.
In my world, The one's who disappeared were killed. Zulkir's above all always wanted power and prestige and would not willingly give up their titles. Witness all the remaining Zulkir's spending 90 years just plotting ways to get back to Thay and regain what they have lost.

Those sorts so not strike me as the types to work from the shadows when they have so much more power in Thay out in the open.

I would have to disagree. Not all zulkirs possess the same personalities. They may have the same level of haughtiness, selfishness, and avarice, but how they view certain matters differ. Some might have tired of ruling a realm with a bunch of bickering, equally loathsome archmages, or preferred the relative safety of seclusion to a throne that constantly invites assassins. Ed himself said that the first Zulkir of Necromancy, Tarabbas Mroound, disappeared in his own volition soon after being named zulkir.

Every beginning has an end.
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2011 :  15:12:16  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Magic can work differently in the Nine Hells. For all we know, the moment Nevron was translocated to hell, Szass Tam's spell suddenly expired.


Knowing Szass Tam's sense of irony, I suspect he planned that spell and tested it beforehand to make sure Nevron got his just deserts for opposing him.

But the lab rat he used to test the spell's effectiveness [or lack thereof] was not Nevron, and therefore didn't possess enough magic that might undo the spell.


Would a polymorphed Nevron still have complete access to the magic he used as an archmage in human form??

Some spells do not require verbally produced words. Some can be triggered by mere exertion of will, which a mane, fortunately, can still manage to do.

Every beginning has an end.
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader

USA
3068 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2011 :  15:17:49  Show Profile Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Magic can work differently in the Nine Hells. For all we know, the moment Nevron was translocated to hell, Szass Tam's spell suddenly expired.


Knowing Szass Tam's sense of irony, I suspect he planned that spell and tested it beforehand to make sure Nevron got his just deserts for opposing him.

But the lab rat he used to test the spell's effectiveness [or lack thereof] was not Nevron, and therefore didn't possess enough magic that might undo the spell.


Would a polymorphed Nevron still have complete access to the magic he used as an archmage in human form??

Some spells do not require verbally produced words. Some can be triggered by mere exertion of will, which a mane, fortunately, can still manage to do.



Not sure if those Cantrips are going to help much

Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin

Be my friend on Goodreads.com: http://www.goodreads.com/user/show/6751111-brian
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2011 :  15:42:15  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478

Not sure if those Cantrips are going to help much

Oh, I wasn't talking about cantrips, but powerful contingencies. The Simbul has a plethora of them. Druxus Rhym, too. Remember the Prologue of Unclean? He would have cast some contingencies by simply recalling them to mind, but he was so addled to think because his assassin was banging his head to the wall.

Every beginning has an end.

Edited by - Dennis on 19 Oct 2011 15:42:55
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader

USA
3068 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2011 :  15:43:14  Show Profile Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478

Not sure if those Cantrips are going to help much

Oh, I wasn't talking about cantrips, but powerful contingencies. The Simbul has a plethora of them. Druxus Rhym, too. Remember the Prologue of Unclean? He would have cast some contingencies by simply recalling them to mind, but he was so addled to think because his assassin was banging his head to the wall.



I know, i was just being silly

Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin

Be my friend on Goodreads.com: http://www.goodreads.com/user/show/6751111-brian
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe

Canada
801 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2011 :  19:32:24  Show Profile Send Firestorm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Magic can work differently in the Nine Hells. For all we know, the moment Nevron was translocated to hell, Szass Tam's spell suddenly expired.


Knowing Szass Tam's sense of irony, I suspect he planned that spell and tested it beforehand to make sure Nevron got his just deserts for opposing him.

But the lab rat he used to test the spell's effectiveness [or lack thereof] was not Nevron, and therefore didn't possess enough magic that might undo the spell.



Would a polymorphed Nevron still have complete access to the magic he used as an archmage in human form??


Did He polymorph Nevron? In the book, he killed him and mutated his spirit into a mane. His body was left lying there. Not sure how, if any, that affects his spellcasting.
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2011 :  19:56:15  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

You have the right of it. Szass Tam separated Nevron's spirit from his body and shrank it into a mane. It would surely affect his spellcasting, but as we all know, it's the mind that counts most in working magic. Despite the disadvantages, I think he'd manage to save himself. As I previously noted, he could simply trigger a contingency that does not require a verbal command.

Every beginning has an end.
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe

Canada
801 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2011 :  23:19:09  Show Profile Send Firestorm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


You have the right of it. Szass Tam separated Nevron's spirit from his body and shrank it into a mane. It would surely affect his spellcasting, but as we all know, it's the mind that counts most in working magic. Despite the disadvantages, I think he'd manage to save himself. As I previously noted, he could simply trigger a contingency that does not require a verbal command.


Contingencies require conditions to activate however. They are not quickened spells that you can set off by a command word or gesture.

For instance, you could set a contingency teleport on your person to go off when you reach a certain amount of physical damage to your body. Or a contingency heal spell that would instantly heal all damage done to you. But the conditions of the spell going off are specific, and you can only have a small amount of contingency spells before they start to interfere with each other.

What makes high level "Elminster's Evasion" such a powerful teleport spell is that he designed the spells to have 6 different possible triggers(most contingencies only have 1 trigger. Nevron is not exactly Elminster). Trying to think of triggers is the tough part. If you are in a situation in which you can"t afford to leave and have to see through, you would not want a contingency teleport going off unless it was absolutely necessary. I am assuming the triggers would be along the lines of a certain lethal amount of physical damage, being paralyzed, rendered unconscious, being turned to stone, Put to sleep, etc

I don"t know if anywhere along the lines he was going to think "If my spirit gets wrenched from my body". Which would not get considered by the contingency as "physical damage" and would not set it off.

In any case, from reading that part over a few times, Nevron was in the middle of casting a spell, and Szass Tam used a quickened spell of his own, merely making a clutching gesture, beating Nevron to the spell, and instantly separating his soul from his body. Nevron's spirit was absolutely dumbfounded as Szass cast his next spell within seconds to change him and get rid of him. Even if he had a quickened teleport ready with a thought, would it transport his body which he was separated from? Hard to say.
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Idamar of Thay
Seeker

19 Posts

Posted - 20 Oct 2011 :  00:55:52  Show Profile Send Idamar of Thay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
But there are other things to consider besides contingency spells.

If I recall, Nevron had already planned to one day leave the Prime Material Plane to enter the lower planes as a conqueror. Obviously is current situation is different, but my point is he has to have made some sort of preperation as well as doing research. I'm still not willing to believe Nevron is dead yet.
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