Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Forgotten Realms Products
 D&D Core Products
 Game Theory [All Editions Welcome]
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Previous Page | Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 3

Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4425 Posts

Posted - 18 Oct 2011 :  14:46:55  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Farrel


Yep, it's down to the DM, and you're quite right that it's applicable to any ruleset, or edition, of any Role Playing Game. It's in essense the depth, or detail, of your campaign world. You might run a gritty campaign or one that's lighthearted and extreme fantasy. You might not RP anything but the monster encounters or you might RP every detail...


That's the conclusion I've come to as well. For me, the tone and style of the game is indicative of the DM and not just the mechanics or setting. Game and Setting do help to influence that style, but I think is a minimum part of the setting. Eberron, for example does Steam-Punk very well. It does gadgets and gizmos, mixing magic and low-tech very well. Forgotten Realms does High Fantasy, plain and simple. I don't think I could do a fun E6 or E8 game in the Realms and still keep it looking the way it does.

quote:
Originally posted by Farrel


I've always looked at pre-made adventures and tried to find things that I can tie in to my campaign. I've enjoyed using the Lords of Darkness (REF5) recently, and I found ways to not just run it as a combat encounter but as a way to expand the player's knowledge, contacts, friends, etc.

It helps if you play with people you are inherently comfortable with and have known for a long time. I do understand when you mention playing with friends and then playing with acquaintances, there's a big difference.



I agree on both counts. Though pre-made adventurers (espically 4E ones) often lack a certain......something for me. Maybe it's because I'm not the one creating it or maybe it's because I look at it from a mostly DM stand-point and it changes the way I preceive how the adventure should go. It could also be because I don't like deviating much from the published adventure. When the PCs really go off the rails from what the adventure says, then it's twice the problem to accomidate their actions and still stick to the story much.

Go to Top of Page

Therise
Master of Realmslore

1272 Posts

Posted - 18 Oct 2011 :  15:19:54  Show Profile Send Therise a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

So is this more of a DM style of doing things, is this indicative of a specific edition of D&D or even specific settings? I'm asking because I feel this is more to do with how the DM runs the game than any sort of edition or setting. This realism can be felt in most settings and ruleset, though I definitly agree that Pre-made adventurers and Living Campaigns/Encounters are more along the lines of the fast combat play and not RP-intensive.

This is probably because you want to keep a group moving fast through modules. In these situations you not gaming with your exclusive friends (though that doesn't mean you don't consider them friends) so the DM has to appeal to the very basics of the game (ie. Combat). I've only done one or two things like this in College and while the adventurs are fun, nothing really stood out in my mind as Unforgettable.

Part of it is DM style, but a good portion is player expectation. For some players, they want to get tensions out, kill some stuff, and wrap up and head home after about 2-3 hours. Many published adventures lend themselves to this, and they tend to work well in gaming stores, RPGA events, and the like.

Many home games are like that as well, especially when groups are new and getting their footing. Younger gamers and older gamers may also push for encounters rather than deep RP campaigns, either because they want combat and shinies or because they have limited game time and need to keep on a schedule. So the general skew for published adventures is for rapid, relatively straightforward encounters.

I think only once you have a fairly established group, and really know your players' tastes, you can then start exploring things like deep world-building and rich roleplay. Even then, your players need to like that sort of thing, and it isn't for everybody. Put in too much of a requirement for creative effort, or too much background reading ahead of time, or work in a sub-genre that one or two players aren't fond of (e.g. some who like high fantasy may not like steampunk), and deep roleplay can feel more like a chore than fun (for me, trying to RP a Star Trek campaign is like pulling teeth). Some players may like the high fantasy and intrigue of the Realms, but get totally turned off by the new post-apocalypse feel of 4E Realms. Others might really want that feeling that the world setting is teetering on the edge of chaos and total oblivion, and it's their job to save everything.

For myself, I think this is why I think 4E (rules) haven't left an indelible impression. I've seen rules come and go, and I think 4E is a nice system. But I get really bored by combat if there's not much else to hold it together. And off the top of my head, I haven't seen any brand new campaign/RP material that really grabbed me. At least not yet, anyway.


Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families!

Edited by - Therise on 18 Oct 2011 15:34:51
Go to Top of Page

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7963 Posts

Posted - 18 Oct 2011 :  22:40:00  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Wooly Rupert

It's not always about having the perfect character sheet -- there's also the factor that magical items are rewards for doing and killing stuff. You take that away, it's like they did the work for nothing.
Computer gamers constantly say they "work" for their items. True, they endure hours of inhumanly repetitious tedium, doing the same thing over and over because 1% of the time it'll spawn one of the 10 components they need to unlock a slowly-erode-the-life-meter battle with some overpowered beast ...

When you start to view it as work then it's no longer play. You're wasting your brain trying to behave like a bot, not having fun ... the game is playing you.

[/Ayrik]
Go to Top of Page

Therise
Master of Realmslore

1272 Posts

Posted - 18 Oct 2011 :  23:43:16  Show Profile Send Therise a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

quote:
Wooly Rupert

It's not always about having the perfect character sheet -- there's also the factor that magical items are rewards for doing and killing stuff. You take that away, it's like they did the work for nothing.
Computer gamers constantly say they "work" for their items. True, they endure hours of inhumanly repetitious tedium, doing the same thing over and over because 1% of the time it'll spawn one of the 10 components they need to unlock a slowly-erode-the-life-meter battle with some overpowered beast ...

When you start to view it as work then it's no longer play. You're wasting your brain trying to behave like a bot, not having fun ... the game is playing you.


Absolutely true. There was a point for me in WoW where it stopped being fun and started feeling like I was being made to dance (because team coordination in boss fights is essential at epic/heroic levels). And it wasn't so much that the clicking and movements and such were difficult per se, it also included things like "ugh, I have to listen to the leader fight with someone who isn't up to the skill par of the rest of us." There were also things I just hated doing, like hours of farming materials so we'd be able to make buff potions.

Either the repetitiveness gets to you, or the skill requirements vs. social fun will diminish at some point. Some people might drop out earlier than others based on skill or interest.

So I imagine it must be hard, trying to make encounters difficult enough to remain challenging for the group. Yet at the same time, not so difficult or repetitive that people drop out from boredom. I will say, though, it sometimes seemed like WoW developers were catering to the top 5% of players, who either had the skills to "hit it" fairly well the first few times (or the stamina to sit through TPK wipe after wipe).

It has to be easier making an encounter that "fits" your group when you're a tabletop DM.

Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families!
Go to Top of Page

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7963 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2011 :  01:16:00  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Blizzard is notorious, though every game software company is guilty, when it comes to caving in to the demands of the extreme players ... the 5-10% of the crowd who play the game like a full-time job (with overtime). These comparatively few people represent at least 75% of the total game-server time, they run multiple accounts, they bot and hack shamelessly whenever they can get away with it, they maintain fansites, they all basically know each other and they're there year after year every single time you logon, like they don't seem to ever do anything else with their lives and hardly sleep.

The rest of the crowd is a bunch of casual mediocrity plus some number of endlessly generated noobs. Most understand the game well enough (after a while), but then again they blindly play it the way the designers intended, they don't know the shortcuts and tweaks and sploits, they just kinda take what they get instead of deliberately and methodically farming what they require to simultaneously gear up several optimized builds.

Nerds seem to often be fanatics and extremists with poor sense of balance and moderation ... these same personality types play tabletop RPGs. I think the DM's interactivity is actually not overwhelmingly important; it's secondary to the group dynamic ... these players number in the handful and have to learn how to play nice and have fun, not the same as playing online with a thousand half-anonymous people who either suck at life or suck at the game.

[/Ayrik]
Go to Top of Page

Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4425 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2011 :  19:04:43  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Therise

Part of it is DM style, but a good portion is player expectation. For some players, they want to get tensions out, kill some stuff, and wrap up and head home after about 2-3 hours. Many published adventures lend themselves to this, and they tend to work well in gaming stores, RPGA events, and the like.

Many home games are like that as well, especially when groups are new and getting their footing. Younger gamers and older gamers may also push for encounters rather than deep RP campaigns, either because they want combat and shinies or because they have limited game time and need to keep on a schedule. So the general skew for published adventures is for rapid, relatively straightforward encounters.


My group definitly fits into this style. It's not that we want more combat or less RP, but it's because we only have about 2 1/2 to 3 hours a week to play. So I try to get in a battle or 2 during that time while moving the adventure along at a good pace. When we had 5-6 hours to play, it'd be really awesome RP experience. Alas, time is the main culprit of my shrinking D&D experience

quote:
Originally posted by Therise


I think only once you have a fairly established group, and really know your players' tastes, you can then start exploring things like deep world-building and rich roleplay. Even then, your players need to like that sort of thing, and it isn't for everybody. Put in too much of a requirement for creative effort, or too much background reading ahead of time, or work in a sub-genre that one or two players aren't fond of (e.g. some who like high fantasy may not like steampunk), and deep roleplay can feel more like a chore than fun (for me, trying to RP a Star Trek campaign is like pulling teeth). Some players may like the high fantasy and intrigue of the Realms, but get totally turned off by the new post-apocalypse feel of 4E Realms. Others might really want that feeling that the world setting is teetering on the edge of chaos and total oblivion, and it's their job to save everything.


The thought of doing a Star Trek campaign does sound rather intriguing, though it would depend on the era, classes, and species one could play. I do have a good group that's willing to try new stuff, and they usually like what we try like a Resident Evil d20 campaign, which was a lot of fun. It does depend on what sort of group your gaming with, though.

quote:
Originally posted by Therise


For myself, I think this is why I think 4E (rules) haven't left an indelible impression. I've seen rules come and go, and I think 4E is a nice system. But I get really bored by combat if there's not much else to hold it together. And off the top of my head, I haven't seen any brand new campaign/RP material that really grabbed me. At least not yet, anyway.



What, might I ask, do you think would hold it together better? That can go for any game rules, not just 4E. Generally I think when people refer to 4E being just about combat, I think it references their lack of non-combative "stuff" or rules that allow them to do other stuff. But I have to question why there needs to be rules for these aspects? Why can't it fall to DM fiat or a very small table for DM guidelines?

Going with the 3E rules, I see some sub-rules on crafting items, researching their own spells, Professions, and so forth but honestly, I've put very little of these aspects to use. This isn't because they're not interesting, far from it, but I have a problem with a character being forced to choose or use limited resources between something thats flavorful yet provides little to no real benefits other than a possibly better RP experience. That is, if you derive a better RP experience from those aspects.

For me, I just don't see the need for hard-nose rules for those situations and I think a better solution/resolution can be garnered from a close DM/PC relationship where both want to make the game fun vs. trying to use a contrived rules to gain the same result.

@ Aryik: I see what your saying and I'd agree that most MMORPGs are like this. That where I see the comparison stopping with the video game genre though. Neverwinter Nights 1&2, Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, etc.. have not felt this way. Possibly because it's more story-driven than character advancement driven?
Go to Top of Page

Farrel
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
239 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2011 :  20:37:53  Show Profile Send Farrel a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Blizzard is notorious, though every game software company is guilty, when it comes to caving in to the demands of the extreme players ... the 5-10% of the crowd who play the game like a full-time job (with overtime). These comparatively few people represent at least 75% of the total game-server time, they run multiple accounts, they bot and hack shamelessly whenever they can get away with it, they maintain fansites, they all basically know each other and they're there year after year every single time you logon, like they don't seem to ever do anything else with their lives and hardly sleep.


There's always going to be people, whatever activity they enjoy, that take things to the extreme. It's their personal choice and although I might not agree with it, it's still a valid playstyle. I've known raider's in WoW that get their children to farm/grind materials when they get home from school
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

The rest of the crowd is a bunch of casual mediocrity plus some number of endlessly generated noobs. Most understand the game well enough (after a while), but then again they blindly play it the way the designers intended, they don't know the shortcuts and tweaks and sploits, they just kinda take what they get instead of deliberately and methodically farming what they require to simultaneously gear up several optimized builds.


I was a casual player and raided when possible, I was in a friendly, mature guild of like-minded players. Something that one player enjoys might be ridiculed by another, they seek to invalidate a persons playstyle and I really detest that "leet" mentality. It seems as though that if they don't play the game the "right way" they shouldn't be allowed to play. I've always believed that you shouldn't impose your own beliefs and values on others, let people make their own decisions, whether you consider them right or wrong... it's their personal choice. It's almost as though that if you don't do x or y then you suck, they may not enjoy x or y but it's down to them and what they consider fun.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Nerds seem to often be fanatics and extremists with poor sense of balance and moderation ... these same personality types play tabletop RPGs. I think the DM's interactivity is actually not overwhelmingly important; it's secondary to the group dynamic ... these players number in the handful and have to learn how to play nice and have fun, not the same as playing online with a thousand half-anonymous people who either suck at life or suck at the game.


As long as the fanatics and extremists can learn to play nicely with others then it's a win/win situation. The problem with many MMO's is that it often brings out the worst in people, whether they mean to let it happen, or not. It's the anonymity of the internet that's the problem, some people don't seem to consider other peoples reactions/feelings so they act like asses and windowlickers. Anyone remember the Barrens Chat?
Go to Top of Page

Therise
Master of Realmslore

1272 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2011 :  20:45:50  Show Profile Send Therise a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

My group definitly fits into this style. It's not that we want more combat or less RP, but it's because we only have about 2 1/2 to 3 hours a week to play. So I try to get in a battle or 2 during that time while moving the adventure along at a good pace. When we had 5-6 hours to play, it'd be really awesome RP experience. Alas, time is the main culprit of my shrinking D&D experience

Time is really a limiting factor. But with three hours a week (that's my group also), we do about two hours or so of RP. Quite a bit of the time, unless it's really a big fight, we find creative ways to get around direct combat and only go there when it's really necessary.

quote:
The thought of doing a Star Trek campaign does sound rather intriguing, though it would depend on the era, classes, and species one could play. I do have a good group that's willing to try new stuff, and they usually like what we try like a Resident Evil d20 campaign, which was a lot of fun. It does depend on what sort of group your gaming with, though.

My issue with Star Trek is that it's really fun for a while, but it's almost designed to be on-the-rails adventuring. If you're just wandering the Trek universe as a mercenary bunch, that's different of course, but most Trek adventures sorta come with the expectation that you're in Starfleet and you'll be on a ship in a chain of command. You see a planet, you investigate in the typical Starfleet way, not much variation or diversity there. But again, that's just my experience with it.

quote:
What, might I ask, do you think would hold it together better? That can go for any game rules, not just 4E. Generally I think when people refer to 4E being just about combat, I think it references their lack of non-combative "stuff" or rules that allow them to do other stuff. But I have to question why there needs to be rules for these aspects? Why can't it fall to DM fiat or a very small table for DM guidelines?

Really good, solid lore and a detailed and fairly realistic world, that's what holds any system together for me. The current setting for 4E FR is too divorced (in time, and in theme) from the old one, and it's really really empty. With a detailed world setting that I really love, the rules can be 3E, 2E, 4E, it's all good.

Novels, and good lore-filled supplements do this for me. But this kind of thing is really personal and certain flavors aren't going to fit the bill for every taste. I'm not into 4E Realms for a lot of reasons, and I also never got interested in Dark Sun, or Dragonlance (as a setting), or even Ravenloft that much. I was a solid Greyhawk enthusiast, though, and I suppose I still am to some extent but I'd be hard pressed to remember it now compared to when it was one of the core settings. I liked the depth and flavor of Shadow World (made for Rolemaster), and got into that world pretty well. So for me, it's all pulling for "high fantasy" of a classic Arthurian or Lord of the Rings type. Post-apocalyse stuff tends to repel me, as do "darkest of the dark, filled with evils and gray morality on all sides" types of things.

Non-combat rules don't generally pull me in that much. I think it's important to have some, of course, but I've always been comfortable houseruling whenever a system didn't have something we wanted for skill checks, or crafting, or whatnot. Or we would just RP it without rules, as long as the intention and outcome made logical sense.

quote:
Going with the 3E rules, I see some sub-rules on crafting items, researching their own spells, Professions, and so forth but honestly, I've put very little of these aspects to use. This isn't because they're not interesting, far from it, but I have a problem with a character being forced to choose or use limited resources between something thats flavorful yet provides little to no real benefits other than a possibly better RP experience. That is, if you derive a better RP experience from those aspects.

For me, I just don't see the need for hard-nose rules for those situations and I think a better solution/resolution can be garnered from a close DM/PC relationship where both want to make the game fun vs. trying to use a contrived rules to gain the same result.

@ Aryik: I see what your saying and I'd agree that most MMORPGs are like this. That where I see the comparison stopping with the video game genre though. Neverwinter Nights 1&2, Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, etc.. have not felt this way. Possibly because it's more story-driven than character advancement driven?


I agree completely that for many skill checks and crafting attempts, you just don't need rules when it can be better served through roleplaying.

And about NWN1+2, BG1+2, and IWD1+2, the story really did make them special. But also, and very different than WoW, they're all single-controller games that you can complete at your own speed. WoW is realtime, essentially, and that's fine. But if you want to do some complex pattern attack or spell sequence, you absolutely must make macros and do keybinding. In fact, macro-ing in WoW is probably one of the things that differentiates "excellent" players from "average" players. And it's the macros doing the hard work, really, lol!



Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families!

Edited by - Therise on 19 Oct 2011 21:05:06
Go to Top of Page

Therise
Master of Realmslore

1272 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2011 :  21:01:44  Show Profile Send Therise a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Farrel

There's always going to be people, whatever activity they enjoy, that take things to the extreme. It's their personal choice and although I might not agree with it, it's still a valid playstyle. I've known raider's in WoW that get their children to farm/grind materials when they get home from school

Oh yeah, I knew a few of those people too. Craziness, really, making your kid do "chores" in a game. I knew parents that made farming in WoW part of allowance-earning. Just plain bizarre.

quote:
I was a casual player and raided when possible, I was in a friendly, mature guild of like-minded players. Something that one player enjoys might be ridiculed by another, they seek to invalidate a persons playstyle and I really detest that "leet" mentality. It seems as though that if they don't play the game the "right way" they shouldn't be allowed to play.

You have to admit, though, the game itself practically promoted and encouraged people to act like major cranks to each other. Granted, there were guilds that intentionally labeled themselves as "casuals" of course, and those were fun and really cool people.

But the moment they wanted to raid, the game also flips that switch. If wipe after wipe happens because you don't dance perfectly or follow the exact pattern of spells required for your character during that fight, people would get frustrated. The game itself promotes "one way, linear approaches" to most of the raid fights. One person missing a beat or hitting the wrong key accidentally can wipe the whole group now. And it's just gotten worse with each expansion. At least in vanilla WoW there was breathing room for everyone to have different styles.

But now, if you're an arcane mage and this one specific boss fight requires frost mages, your guild will berate and angrily poop all over your fun until you "re-spec" to frost. Then you've gotta learn the frost rotation, yadda yadda... it doesn't matter if you hate frost and loved playing arcane, you do it for the group (or you're out of the guild, oftentimes).

quote:
I've always believed that you shouldn't impose your own beliefs and values on others, let people make their own decisions, whether you consider them right or wrong... it's their personal choice. It's almost as though that if you don't do x or y then you suck, they may not enjoy x or y but it's down to them and what they consider fun.

Totally agree. This is one of the things that is SO much better about tabletop gaming: the freedom to play what you love.

quote:
As long as the fanatics and extremists can learn to play nicely with others then it's a win/win situation. The problem with many MMO's is that it often brings out the worst in people, whether they mean to let it happen, or not. It's the anonymity of the internet that's the problem, some people don't seem to consider other peoples reactions/feelings so they act like asses and windowlickers. Anyone remember the Barrens Chat?


Oh lord, Barrens chat... endless Chuck Norris jokes amidst people asking for directions, nose-pickers, and randomly screamed profanity. Others asking if pie was better than cake, and nobody able to find Mankrik's wife even with a map and two people guiding them.


Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families!
Go to Top of Page

Farrel
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
239 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2011 :  21:09:22  Show Profile Send Farrel a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Therise

quote:
Originally posted by Farrel

Anyone remember the Barrens Chat?


Oh lord, Barrens chat... endless Chuck Norris jokes amidst people asking for directions, nose-pickers, and randomly screamed profanity. Others asking if pie was better than cake, and nobody able to find Mankrik's wife even with a map and two people guiding them.





Thanks Therise, I was having a coffee when I read that and I seem to have breathed most of it instead of drinking it due to laughing
Go to Top of Page

Therise
Master of Realmslore

1272 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2011 :  21:15:46  Show Profile Send Therise a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Farrel

Thanks Therise, I was having a coffee when I read that and I seem to have breathed most of it instead of drinking it due to laughing


Chuck Norris wouldn't have choked.
Y U NOT HAVE PIE WITH THAT COFFEE? YYYY??????
He prefers cake, of course.
The cake is a lie.
AAAAGHREEEEEESH! FOR DA HORDE!!!!!1111!!!@




Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families!
Go to Top of Page

Farrel
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
239 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2011 :  21:31:34  Show Profile Send Farrel a Private Message  Reply with Quote
First of all, in response to Therise's post... KEK!

I really hadn't considered the time constraint, some of our gaming sessions start at 20:00 and often finish at 01:00-02:00.

The other factor, for me personally, is that I only play with one other person. I can concentrate all my plans and schemes specifically for the player and don't have to worry about the group splitting up to explore or any other such considerations.

I will admit that during our gaming sessions that we'll digress and end up in discussion about something (it's often completely unrelated to the game itself). Not the best use of time really?

I think if people have limited time to play then they have to tailor that session to get the most out of it. Whether the group likes combat or talking the DM has to make the best of the time available.

Edited by - Farrel on 19 Oct 2011 21:45:32
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36775 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2011 :  22:07:27  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

For me, I just don't see the need for hard-nose rules for those situations and I think a better solution/resolution can be garnered from a close DM/PC relationship where both want to make the game fun vs. trying to use a contrived rules to gain the same result.


Let's flip this around: why doesn't this apply to combat? Why do we need rules for one, but we can totally wing the other with only vague guidelines?

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4425 Posts

Posted - 20 Oct 2011 :  14:22:59  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@ Farrel and Therise: For pretty much the same things you listed about WoW is why I stopped playing. I didn't want to go heavy into the game, with add-ons, Macros, and consistant character re-building so I could fit into the group. I often went Solo, played up to a point where having a Guild almost became a requirement and got fed up with the amount of Farming needed to do non-combative stuff. I think I spent a week of playing just to get my craft skill up to build a suit of armor that, once completed, was out dated and I had something better. And the amount of gold I sold it for would be about equal to the same amout gained through adventuring.


quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

For me, I just don't see the need for hard-nose rules for those situations and I think a better solution/resolution can be garnered from a close DM/PC relationship where both want to make the game fun vs. trying to use a contrived rules to gain the same result.


Let's flip this around: why doesn't this apply to combat? Why do we need rules for one, but we can totally wing the other with only vague guidelines?



You could do that, but I think that goes against D&D at it's very roots. Since the war-game Chainmail and through D&D's history, combat has played a pretty big role in the game. Even if that role has varied, it was integral with character advancement, monster ecology/creation, and drive of more and more supplements for the game.

With that said, even Gygax stated that players and DMs don't need rules to play in which you could do a completely story-driven game. Having been involved with a few, they're fun and exciting but it doesn't feel like D&D. It stops being a "game" and more or less RP Story Time. I also feel combat needs the most un-biased arbitration, something not easily done with DM fiat. Also, this is the part of the game where the DM stops being the narritor and starts being an opponent, via monsters and traps. The combat can also be very simplified, with simple spells (x damage vs. Save) and attack mod. with a d20 vs. AC and have that be the biggest part of your combat system. No grappling, no strange maneuves, martial arts, fancy sword styles, etc. But I don't see that kind of thing appealing to a general audience honestly.
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36775 Posts

Posted - 20 Oct 2011 :  19:23:38  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan


quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

For me, I just don't see the need for hard-nose rules for those situations and I think a better solution/resolution can be garnered from a close DM/PC relationship where both want to make the game fun vs. trying to use a contrived rules to gain the same result.


Let's flip this around: why doesn't this apply to combat? Why do we need rules for one, but we can totally wing the other with only vague guidelines?



You could do that, but I think that goes against D&D at it's very roots. Since the war-game Chainmail and through D&D's history, combat has played a pretty big role in the game. Even if that role has varied, it was integral with character advancement, monster ecology/creation, and drive of more and more supplements for the game.

With that said, even Gygax stated that players and DMs don't need rules to play in which you could do a completely story-driven game. Having been involved with a few, they're fun and exciting but it doesn't feel like D&D. It stops being a "game" and more or less RP Story Time. I also feel combat needs the most un-biased arbitration, something not easily done with DM fiat. Also, this is the part of the game where the DM stops being the narritor and starts being an opponent, via monsters and traps. The combat can also be very simplified, with simple spells (x damage vs. Save) and attack mod. with a d20 vs. AC and have that be the biggest part of your combat system. No grappling, no strange maneuves, martial arts, fancy sword styles, etc. But I don't see that kind of thing appealing to a general audience honestly.



See, my thinking is that role-playing is what separates D&D from Chainmail and other games, and that you need those additional rules for non-combat situations -- otherwise, you're just in a combat game with some "let's pretend" sessions going on between fights.

Should a DM just arbitrarily decide how successful my character is at building a bow with just materials my character found in the woods? Should a DM arbitrarily decide whether or not a person is capable of conning a guard into letting him past? Sure, you could roleplay that instead of rolling, but what if the player is shy or simply can't speak well enough to be convincing -- should his bard with 18 Charisma be unable to do anything because the player himself can't? Should a DM arbitrarily decide whether or not my character heard a noise? Should a DM rule that if the player can't figure out that a prominent NPC has a hidden agenda, then his character has no chance to figure this out?

Crafting, Sense Motive, Bluff, etc -- those are all about overcoming challenges. Defeating something in combat is about overcoming the challenge of getting past it's defenses without getting killed in turn. If rules are necessary for overcoming one type of challenge, why are they not necessary for overcoming another type of challenge?

The rules and the dice decide how likely it is that a PC can do something, whether it's learn a spell, cut a kobold in half, or sweet-talk an elfmaid into some alone time. It doesn't matter how much is straight combat and how much is pure story -- you need rules to define what's possible.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

Farrel
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
239 Posts

Posted - 20 Oct 2011 :  19:43:32  Show Profile Send Farrel a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert


See, my thinking is that role-playing is what separates D&D from Chainmail and other games, and that you need those additional rules for non-combat situations -- otherwise, you're just in a combat game with some "let's pretend" sessions going on between fights.

Should a DM just arbitrarily decide how successful my character is at building a bow with just materials my character found in the woods? Should a DM arbitrarily decide whether or not a person is capable of conning a guard into letting him past? Sure, you could roleplay that instead of rolling, but what if the player is shy or simply can't speak well enough to be convincing -- should his bard with 18 Charisma be unable to do anything because the player himself can't? Should a DM arbitrarily decide whether or not my character heard a noise? Should a DM rule that if the player can't figure out that a prominent NPC has a hidden agenda, then his character has no chance to figure this out?

Crafting, Sense Motive, Bluff, etc -- those are all about overcoming challenges. Defeating something in combat is about overcoming the challenge of getting past it's defenses without getting killed in turn. If rules are necessary for overcoming one type of challenge, why are they not necessary for overcoming another type of challenge?

The rules and the dice decide how likely it is that a PC can do something, whether it's learn a spell, cut a kobold in half, or sweet-talk an elfmaid into some alone time. It doesn't matter how much is straight combat and how much is pure story -- you need rules to define what's possible.



IMHO I think this nails it, I like to have rules to set a guide for my DMing, so that I can be consistent and fair. I won't let the rules get in the way of having fun though.

Sometimes I won't bother with a player's skill check for an opposed roll with an NPC, i'm lucky to have a player that can think on his feet and do his character justice. This hasn't always been the case, i've had some shy players that I felt needed the roll of a dice to make the skill check, I don't want to isolate or make them feel uncomfortable... hence the roll of a dice and minimal dialogue.

Did someone mention sweet-talking an elfmaid, where'd she go?
Go to Top of Page

Therise
Master of Realmslore

1272 Posts

Posted - 20 Oct 2011 :  20:08:44  Show Profile Send Therise a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

@ Farrel and Therise: For pretty much the same things you listed about WoW is why I stopped playing. I didn't want to go heavy into the game, with add-ons, Macros, and consistant character re-building so I could fit into the group. I often went Solo, played up to a point where having a Guild almost became a requirement and got fed up with the amount of Farming needed to do non-combative stuff. I think I spent a week of playing just to get my craft skill up to build a suit of armor that, once completed, was out dated and I had something better. And the amount of gold I sold it for would be about equal to the same amout gained through adventuring. [/auote]
Yep, farming got old real quick.

I will say, some of my best experiences (and the most fun) in WoW were at low level. Guilds of a "casual" nature, where you pair up with people at lower levels, that's super fun and you get to meet some really cool people that way. I still email some of them years later, and we're planning on doing a fun, casual SWTOR guild when it comes out in December.

Enjoying low level as much as I did, though, there are only so many times you can do something like Scholomance before it gets stale. Or questing in Ashenvale for the 4th time. I did love raiding in vanilla, though. Giant groups going into Molten Core, all of us on raid chat, that was hilarious. I miss it, really.

[quote]You could do that, but I think that goes against D&D at it's very roots. Since the war-game Chainmail and through D&D's history, combat has played a pretty big role in the game. Even if that role has varied, it was integral with character advancement, monster ecology/creation, and drive of more and more supplements for the game.

I agree with this. Combat, particularly combat that is individually styled and relying on player creativity, is THE big thing that sets D&D apart from all the wargames that went before. Roleplaying was Arneson's gift to D&D, but beyond roleplaying that you're going to the village and negotiating with so-and-so, I'd strongly argue that individualized creative combat is also roleplaying.

Where 4E -can- break down in this regard is that combat choices are often pushed into roles that are too rigid. Wizards only casting magic missiles one after the other, for instance. 4E doesn't have to be that way, of course, but I found that less experienced newcomers tended to be incredibly predictable in their combat choices and didn't do much RP even in a creative combat sense. AD&D was a bigger offender in this regard, though, with respect to newer players.

And I totally agree, DMs should be a narrator/director and arbiter rather than an opponent. That whole "opponent" style is THE flavor of wargaming, and it -should- be absent in D&D of any edition.

Crafting and such, those things I see as additive bonuses to the game. It's nice to have those rules, and I did like how they were done in 2E-3E, but there's also a lot to be said for the more open-ended narrative possibilities for crafting in 4E.

Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families!

Edited by - Therise on 20 Oct 2011 20:11:34
Go to Top of Page

Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4425 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2011 :  04:05:40  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert


See, my thinking is that role-playing is what separates D&D from Chainmail and other games, and that you need those additional rules for non-combat situations -- otherwise, you're just in a combat game with some "let's pretend" sessions going on between fights.

Should a DM just arbitrarily decide how successful my character is at building a bow with just materials my character found in the woods? Should a DM arbitrarily decide whether or not a person is capable of conning a guard into letting him past? Sure, you could roleplay that instead of rolling, but what if the player is shy or simply can't speak well enough to be convincing -- should his bard with 18 Charisma be unable to do anything because the player himself can't? Should a DM arbitrarily decide whether or not my character heard a noise? Should a DM rule that if the player can't figure out that a prominent NPC has a hidden agenda, then his character has no chance to figure this out?


I'm not totally disagreeing with you here. I should've been more elaborate in my opinion of hard-nose rules vs. a more free roaming DM/PC communal relationship with things that don't envolve combat. It's not that rolls or skills aren't needed, because they do help, what I have a problem with is making characters decide which to be better at like Crafting vs. Intimidating, for example. Basically my line of thinking goes like this: Combat effects everyone, all the time, at all levels. Non-combat situations effect certain people sometimes when that particular situation comes up. In areas like Craft, Profession, and say... Perform (bards not withstanding) it's more likely to effect one or two characters yet not have such an impact on the group as a whole (thought that doesn't exclude the times when it does, I'm speaking generally here).

For your examples, I feel an appropriate measure would be for the DM to decide the DC, what skills, and any bonuses the PC might receive due to back round and even up to Player's meta-game knowledge of the situation. A Fighter who's been given everything in life and only knows some basic attacks that wants to make a bow is going to have a harder time than a Fighter who's father is a Weapon-smith and the PC's background is shown to have some woodsman training (even basic stuff like identifying specific trees and fauna). Instead there is a complex set of DCs for the characters to beat and once you get to a certain point, no matter what you roll it's an automatic success. The PHB even states that Skills are immune to Nat. 20 = Automatic Success, Nat. 1 = Automatic Failure. Pretty much because I've put little stock into those aspects of the game is why I feel bloated rules for them is a little unnecessary. In a theroitical 5E, I'd like to see rules for this, but as an Optional addition where PCs don't have to spend their limited resources for some character flair.

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert


Crafting, Sense Motive, Bluff, etc -- those are all about overcoming challenges. Defeating something in combat is about overcoming the challenge of getting past it's defenses without getting killed in turn. If rules are necessary for overcoming one type of challenge, why are they not necessary for overcoming another type of challenge?

The rules and the dice decide how likely it is that a PC can do something, whether it's learn a spell, cut a kobold in half, or sweet-talk an elfmaid into some alone time. It doesn't matter how much is straight combat and how much is pure story -- you need rules to define what's possible.



I agree with you and I like how Skills relate to the over-all effect of D&D. As I mentioned above, I just have a problem with characters being forced to choose to be good with one while stink at something that might apply to the general health of his fello players. For example (gosh I love examples ), a Rogue who puts a lot of ranks into Bluff, Sense Motive, Diplomacy, and Perform to sweet talk elven maidens on a regular basis is greatly putting his friends at serious risk because he's for crap at detecting traps, stealth for scouting, or couldn't wiggle his way out of a 9-year old's knot. These are skills that, I feel, aid everyone at the table and often times keep them alive in combative situations. Sweet-talking an elf, while fun and exciting really only effects himself. I just feel rules for combat are more important because combat can kill a PC where as failing to sweet-talk an elfmaid generally gets the PC a lap full of water/ale/wine or a smack on the face. There are times when these skills are critical to plot and story elements, no denying that. I just think that rules for them should be more like guidelines than Skill check + Y must beat DC X with no exceptions.
Go to Top of Page

Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4425 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2011 :  04:15:57  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Therise


I agree with this. Combat, particularly combat that is individually styled and relying on player creativity, is THE big thing that sets D&D apart from all the wargames that went before. Roleplaying was Arneson's gift to D&D, but beyond roleplaying that you're going to the village and negotiating with so-and-so, I'd strongly argue that individualized creative combat is also roleplaying.

Where 4E -can- break down in this regard is that combat choices are often pushed into roles that are too rigid. Wizards only casting magic missiles one after the other, for instance. 4E doesn't have to be that way, of course, but I found that less experienced newcomers tended to be incredibly predictable in their combat choices and didn't do much RP even in a creative combat sense. AD&D was a bigger offender in this regard, though, with respect to newer players.


Ya know, I completely blame the style and layout of the powers for this sort of experience. When people read (Target: One creature, Hit: X-damage, Effect: Blah) they tend not to think that it can be used outside of this narrow mechanic. It took a little time but my wife's Wizard was using her spells to overcome all sorts of obsticles such as melting the frozen door of a frozen tower with an encounter spell. A bit broader structure for more wiggle-room in spells/power description could've really helped the editin here, IMO.

And I totally agree, DMs should be a narrator/director and arbiter rather than an opponent. That whole "opponent" style is THE flavor of wargaming, and it -should- be absent in D&D of any edition.

quote:
Originally posted by Therise


Crafting and such, those things I see as additive bonuses to the game. It's nice to have those rules, and I did like how they were done in 2E-3E, but there's also a lot to be said for the more open-ended narrative possibilities for crafting in 4E.



Agreed, I don't think anyones saying that Skills are not needed, as they provide yet another dimension to character creation and Roleplay. Where it gets strange is how those rules are intergrated into the system and used for players. When I DM 4E, I had an Executioner (Assassin) PC that wanted to make "Black Eggs", that was ground-up glass, steel shavings, black-powder covered in a real chicken egg and coated in Tar. It's design purpose was to blind targets for so many rounds. So I allowed him to do with with a simple 1/2 level + Int. modifier vs. a Low DC (it's not terribly complicated to craft) and volia, he had about a dozen of them. They were fun to see in combat too, I must say.
Go to Top of Page

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7963 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2011 :  09:56:36  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Your stats measure your ability to survive and succeed, when they reach zero you die. Your personality and hair colour aren't gonna decide whether you live or die, or if they do, it'll be through the application of a stats mechanic. It's built into the game. I'd say about 60-80% of all the text written in D&D books deals specifically with numerical values which are plugged into functions that determine life and death.

When the only tool you have is a hammer then all your problems start to look like nails. I don't blame players for placing heavy emphasis on combat abilities.

[/Ayrik]
Go to Top of Page

Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4425 Posts

Posted - 12 Jan 2012 :  05:27:25  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well with the whole 5E being official and the strong emphasis on new Playtesting and what-not, I think this is a good thread to kick-start up again. Now, I'd rather not have yet another "What do you want to see in 5E!" kind of thread because those are all numerious yet often only lead to yelling about what's better than what with no rhyme or reason.

Instead, I'd like to hear one or two (three if you truely must) ideas that would fit into a d20 system-engine that benefits the game as a whole (not just one person's love for Vancian spellcasting or the removal of feats because they're "icky") and how that might be applied to such a system. These don't have to be strictly mechanically natured with math and numbers factored in, but general thoughts. Also, I'd like to hear the ideas of other systems (or even video games) on how they might be applied to the over all game in a positive way. Also, explainations are really helpful to fully understand the need for said idea to be incorporated.


I guess I'll go first:


  • One-half level approach: This was something that started first with Star Wars: Saga but became a main staple point with 4E. First, I think the best reason for this approach is that it doens't hold anyone back, including PC that like to branch out to other aspects areas of knowledge such as the Fighter dabbling in magic or the priest dabbling in a bit more sword-play. Second, it helps add up in the long run. In earlier editions, one had to be truely carful how bad their BAB got when multiclassing or taking a Prestige Class becaus just a few drops from the top performance meant a significant reduction in anything combat releated. These gains weren't strong enough to warrent such drops and thus fueled those who loved to Min/Max. By going half-level, this eliminates the drive for Min/Max in this fashion and makes dabbling a big more appealing.


  • Ability Scores and their role with combat: One thing that I've become enamored with about the current edition was that not every class that focuses on attacking must do so through Strength. Rogues do so automatically through Dex, Clerics can do so through Wisdom, and Paladins can choose to use Charisma. But how does this effect one's simulationist vision of the game?

    Personally, I felt that melee-based classes (ones that get up-close and personal) were instantly gimped when they were pretty much required to put a LOT into one attribtue, namely Strength, even when most of their features or spells or what have you came from something else. Further the line of thinking to other areas of the PC like saving throws, HP, and AC which all play a large factor overall. It's almost as if Synergy of Abilities Scores and character generation were at odds with one another. I don't think this is the best way to proceed namely because it wasn't the case for everyone.

    Certain classes were exempt from this area because everything they received was all based off one or two abilities and they could affort to have 2 or 3 "Dump Stats". I'm ok with one, espically in a game where Point Buy and Stat Array are becoming the standard norm, but lets keep most classes a little more synergetic at performing their role.


  • Skills: Ah, this feature of the game has caused SOO many arguments, created so much love, and everything in between. First, i"d like to say that I hope they remain with D&D for the duration of it's career. But that doens't mean that they got them right the first or (in Pathfinder's case) the second or even third time around. But as each edition comes and goes, they all take their swipe at this area. My perspective is, we need to give classes more but divide areas. What I'd like to see is 3 separate columns of Skills. Ones that direcly involve Combat, ones with social aspects, and ones for character backgrounds. Each race/class can have training or proficiency or whatever in a few from each column.

    The question is, ranks or no ranks? I can say I've NEVER been a fan of Ranks mainly because it's a pain in the butt when your making a 13th level NPC with 68 ranks to distribute among 28 skills and keeping in mind what skills are available at which time with what class. It became too much. Pathfinder made it a bit simpler, paring down a few skills and putting the ranks to equal your ECL. 4E made it more simpler, saying you have training in X amount but your not restricted to any of them, good luck. So I'd have to say I'm a fan of the static bonus and training over the multidued of skill ranks that a PC gets every level. But I'm not without compromise and I feel if a Rank-system is more popular, then it should be more like Paizo and have X amount of ranks but no more than your total-ECL. I also feel that keeping certain skills together was an oveall success such as Stealth, Perception, Athletics, Acrobatics instead of 2-3 different skills for each.



Ok, what I posted were my own opinions which I feel you may or may NOT agree with. That's ok and i'm very open to constructive criticism. That being said, feel free to bring up your ideas or comments on what I said (or to just talk about mechanics in general).
Go to Top of Page

Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe

USA
495 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2012 :  17:33:45  Show Profile Send Old Man Harpell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Multi-classing; One thing that 4th Edition did that found favor with me was stepping on the endless multi-classing (especially just so you could get X Prestige Class and then the Y Prestige Class - which, as a player, I admit I too exploited mercilessly). I have completely forbidden multi-classing in my Pathfinder game, and since we are still at relatively low levels, am looking into ways to utilize the 'half level' approach.

Split Stats: One thing we are looking into, which started in Second Edition (and which I really haven't seen since) is Split Statistics. This lends to emphasis on aspects which may end up making a difference, not just in roleplay, but in mechanics aspect.

By way of example, my wife plays a half-orc fighter. Using Point Buy, she came out with a Charisma of 14 (and a Wisdom of 7...ouch). Since the missus hates being party leader or making decisions beyond keeping her companions and herself alive, she has little use for the things that define being a strong leader. Conversely, she has described the half-orc as being uncharacteristically attractive for one of her species - apart from skin tone and a tiny pair of tusks, she looks like six feet of muscular blonde Norse valkyrie. Even those who normally give half-orcs a hard time look twice to be sure she is what she appears to be.

So if we split that Charisma of 14 into its components, Leadership and Appearance, we trade off points on a one-for-one basis. Make it Leadership of 12 and Appearance of 16, for example - for every point you take one of the sub-attributes in one direction, you take the other in the opposite direction. Min/maxing becomes as detrimental as not in cases like this. Yes, it's still possible, but sacrifices are still to be made if things like this are used. And you can require a justification for it (such as the above half-orc).

That sorcerer may have a Charisma of 18, and split it 14/22 for the bonus spell slots (which, if I recall, 4 points either way was the recommended limit), but he'll take a hit in Reaction and physical appearance interaction, even as he becomes a walking artillery piece...which I, as a GM, enforce ruthlessly. Make that fey or infernal aspect shine, baby (heh, heh). "No, I'm not a tiefling, fool, pay the glowing eyes no attention!" Build in certain aspects beyond the numbers, and have them accept it if they want the number aspects of those attributes.

Just a couple of (long-winded) items that sprang to mind.
Go to Top of Page

Zireael
Master of Realmslore

Poland
1190 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2012 :  20:33:25  Show Profile  Visit Zireael's Homepage Send Zireael a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell

Multi-classing; One thing that 4th Edition did that found favor with me was stepping on the endless multi-classing (especially just so you could get X Prestige Class and then the Y Prestige Class - which, as a player, I admit I too exploited mercilessly). I have completely forbidden multi-classing in my Pathfinder game, and since we are still at relatively low levels, am looking into ways to utilize the 'half level' approach.

Split Stats: One thing we are looking into, which started in Second Edition (and which I really haven't seen since) is Split Statistics. This lends to emphasis on aspects which may end up making a difference, not just in roleplay, but in mechanics aspect.

By way of example, my wife plays a half-orc fighter. Using Point Buy, she came out with a Charisma of 14 (and a Wisdom of 7...ouch). Since the missus hates being party leader or making decisions beyond keeping her companions and herself alive, she has little use for the things that define being a strong leader. Conversely, she has described the half-orc as being uncharacteristically attractive for one of her species - apart from skin tone and a tiny pair of tusks, she looks like six feet of muscular blonde Norse valkyrie. Even those who normally give half-orcs a hard time look twice to be sure she is what she appears to be.

So if we split that Charisma of 14 into its components, Leadership and Appearance, we trade off points on a one-for-one basis. Make it Leadership of 12 and Appearance of 16, for example - for every point you take one of the sub-attributes in one direction, you take the other in the opposite direction. Min/maxing becomes as detrimental as not in cases like this. Yes, it's still possible, but sacrifices are still to be made if things like this are used. And you can require a justification for it (such as the above half-orc).

That sorcerer may have a Charisma of 18, and split it 14/22 for the bonus spell slots (which, if I recall, 4 points either way was the recommended limit), but he'll take a hit in Reaction and physical appearance interaction, even as he becomes a walking artillery piece...which I, as a GM, enforce ruthlessly. Make that fey or infernal aspect shine, baby (heh, heh). "No, I'm not a tiefling, fool, pay the glowing eyes no attention!" Build in certain aspects beyond the numbers, and have them accept it if they want the number aspects of those attributes.

Just a couple of (long-winded) items that sprang to mind.



Split stats are an excellent idea - can you tell me where I can find more?

I like this
quote:
One thing that I've become enamored with about the current edition was that not every class that focuses on attacking must do so through Strength. Rogues do so automatically through Dex, Clerics can do so through Wisdom, and Paladins can choose to use Charisma.
, since after a little tweaking it allows removing (or lessening) dump stats.

One-half level is also a good thing.

--------------------------------------

Personally, I would remove the levels and challenge ratings from Next D&D, and place the giving-out of XP completely in the DM's hands.

------------------------
Do you prefer AD&D/3e Vancian system (spell slots, etc.), or the Tome of Battle system (Encounter/Per-Day/Stances) or maybe the 4e system?

Would you keep the difference between the wizards and the fighters (nicknamed 'Linear Warriors Quadratic Wizards') or would you streamline them - I don't mean giving warriors spells, but applying the same mechanics to them - something like Tome of Battle manevuers for every class...

SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!

http://zireael07.wordpress.com/
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2012 :  01:00:34  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Would someone explain the one-half level thing to me? I read something about it a long time ago on paizo's site, before they finalized the rules, but I forget the specifics.

Split stats are excellent. I have never used just the base ones - I have had systems with everything from 7 stats to 35 (I like to have stats for the senses, as well). For instance, someone needs to roll an 18 or better to notice something - they get to add their alertness bonus, which would be the bonuses from Vision and hearing (and smell, if applicable). The stats are the same bell-curve as the normal ones, and use the same bonuses. This also helps quite a bit differentiating the races.

I also don't believe in negative numbers while generating characters - my system fixed that, and alleviated the need for all those rolling systems. For instance, a human's strength is 2d+6, A Half-orc gets 2d6+8. Everyone rolls just two dice. NPCs roll the normal three (if you generate them randomly - I don't). In this system, Dwarves would have a 2d6+8 STR as well, but only a 2d6+4 CHA. It removes any crap stats, and you don't get any oddities like a dwarf with a CHA of 1. Heroes are supposed to be better, otherwise they'd just stay home and pick corn.

I'm also a fan of armor-as-damage-reduction. I know thats not classic D&D, but it allows for a better system of unarmored fighting. dextrous fighters should be harder to hit then one encumbered by a hundred pounds of plate... but they aren't under the regular rules. You Agility (a split of dexterity) should determine how hard you are to hit, along with training. Armor just keeps you from getting killed when you do get hit.

I am all for each class having its stat determine its combat-effectiveness. A rogue doesn't rely on brute force, he relies on a carefully place kill-shot.

I mentioned in another thread turning 'HP' into stamina, and having that work as spell points as well. That allows a Mage to endanger himself by over-casting (and passing out). It makes sense (in 4e/CRPG world) that HP no longer represents hits at all, since you can now recover them faster (and on your own). Criticals should be 'real' hits, counted against CON, and only healed by a cleric or potion). Thats a nice blend of old and new - fans of the classic game can rationalize that they aren't really 'healing' faster - they were just winded.

Thats all I got for now - it was part of a new system I was working on. Maybe I'll call it 6e (sexy?)

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Go to Top of Page

Kentinal
Great Reader

4684 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2012 :  01:12:39  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Half levels under current edition I can not explain, however prior editions have approached it in a few ways.
Being "monster" and class one advanced part as the "monster" and part of the class (or classes). There also was duel classing and versions of multi-classing.
Half levels basically came dome level up part of character to a higher level then other part of character (And having those abilities available quicker then achieving a full level first).

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
Go to Top of Page

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7963 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2012 :  01:47:13  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've experimented with different "Natural 20" options.

The default we usually adopt is an assumption that 20 always hits and always doubles whatever damage was rolled on the dice: ie; 2 x Weapon damage, damage bonuses from Str/etc still added but not doubled.

I've tried 20 = maximum damage, 20 = a free bonus attack, 20 = opponent loses an attack, 20 = roll on the infamous Critical Hit Tables, even 20 = player's choice from these options. We still tend to return to our trusty default, for consistent speed and simplicity.

We also assume 20 always hits (though for normal damage roll) even when the attack is "impossible" and would normally require 21+ to successfully hit. Likewise 1 = Fumble, pretty much the opposite effects ... although none of the Fumble Tables I've tried have ever been popular in my groups.

[/Ayrik]
Go to Top of Page

Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe

USA
495 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2012 :  01:56:06  Show Profile Send Old Man Harpell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Zireael: Here is the base information on Split Statistics. Warning - this is a long post. This is a Nth-generation cut-and-paste, and does not include the numbers (obviously). Also, this is (I believe) Second Edition information, so YMMV:

Strength (Muscle and Stamina)

Muscle: Your ability to cause damage and bring your Strength to bear in short bursts.
- Attack Bonus (melee weapons)
- Damage Bonus
- Abilities requiring bursts of power (Bending, Breaking, Lifting)

Stamina: Your ability to move and bring your Strength to bear over a long period of time.
- Movement Rate (Walk, Run, Jump, Swim, Fly)
- Encumbrance
- Abilities requiring endurance

Dexterity (Aim and Balance)

Aim: Determines how well you can manipulate objects with your hands.
- Attack Bonus (missile weapons, finesse, touch)
- Severity of Fumbles
- Skills requiring hand control (Forgery, Lock Picking, Set/Disarm Traps, etc)
- Crafts requiring hand control (Music, Painting, Sculpting)

Balance: Determines how well you can control your body movement.
- Armor Class Bonus
- Saving Throws: Reflex
- Quickness and Initiative
- Skills requiring body control (Balancing, Climbing, Escaping, Jumping, etc)
- Skills requiring stealthiness (Hiding, Moving Silently)
- Performances requiring body control (Dancing)

Fortitude (Constitution and Toughness)

Constitution: Your ability to resist disease and death magic.
- Saving Throws: Fortitude (Health/Necromancy)
- Resist Toxins (Disease, Poison, Paralyzation, Petrification, etc)
- System Shock

Toughness: Your ability to sustain physical damage, and once damaged heal from it.
- Hit Point Bonus
- Resist Elements (Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire, Sonic)
- Natural Healing

Intelligence (Knowledge and Reason)

Knowledge: How much information you can store in your memory.
- Number of Skills known
- Arcane spells known
- Skills requiring knowledge (Knowledge, Profession, Spellcraft)

Reason: Your ability to learn new knowledge, and see through falsehoods.
- Learn new Arcane Spells
- Bonus Arcane Spells (Wizard)
- Skills requiring reason and logic (Appraise, Decipher, Research, Use Device)

Wisdom (Intuition and Willpower)

Intuition: Your common sense and ability to be aware of what is around you.
- Bonus Divine Spells
- Skills requiring awareness (Heal, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival)

Willpower: Your mental strength, used to influence or resist mental attacks.
- Saving Throws: Willpower, Mind, Magic
- Skills requiring mental discipline (Concentration)

Charisma (Appearance and Leadership)

Appearance: Your physical beauty, how others see you.
- Physical appearance
- Reaction Bonus
- Skills requiring appearance (Disguise, Seduction)
- Fate, Fortune and Luck

Leadership: Your personality, likability and ability to influence and attract others.
- Bonus Arcane Spells (Sorcerer)
- Attract Cohorts, Followers and Henchmen
- Skills requiring leadership (Acting, Bluffing, Diplomacy, Gathering Info, Handling Animals, Intimidation)

- OMH
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2012 :  06:47:24  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay, its not the same half-level thing that was being discussed on the Paizo boards (I have no idea if it was ever implemented in the final rules). It had something to do with adding half your second level's BAB to your primary levels BAB to determine your comabt effectiveness. In other words, it was a great way to 'munchinkinize' one of the major drawbacks of multi-classing (which you usually need to get those yummy PrCs).

My solution is to simply have a Martial Aptitude replace BAB, and people can hand-tailor their character any way they like, by putting points into it (just like a stat). In fact, if they wanted to really do it right, split it into MA (Melee Aptitude) and RA (Ranged Aptitude).

And screw PrCs anyway - they can accomplish the same thing with Feat-trees, without all that clutter. It was a great concept initially, but then it morphed into something unweildy. Just make certain feats only available to certain organizations and races (groups), and that would function in the way PrCs were originally intended.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Go to Top of Page

Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4425 Posts

Posted - 16 Jan 2012 :  13:59:11  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay


Okay, its not the same half-level thing that was being discussed on the Paizo boards (I have no idea if it was ever implemented in the final rules). It had something to do with adding half your second level's BAB to your primary levels BAB to determine your comabt effectiveness. In other words, it was a great way to 'munchinkinize' one of the major drawbacks of multi-classing (which you usually need to get those yummy PrCs).

My solution is to simply have a Martial Aptitude replace BAB, and people can hand-tailor their character any way they like, by putting points into it (just like a stat). In fact, if they wanted to really do it right, split it into MA (Melee Aptitude) and RA (Ranged Aptitude).


The 1/2 level approach (in 4E) is the driving mechanic behind your defenses, attacks, initiative, and skills. For example, a 10th level Fighter would automatically get +5 to hit, +5 to his Fort/Ref/Will, +5 to his Initiative, +5 to his AC, +5 to all his skills (even ones not trained in). This keeps people on the same pacing with these very basic and simple practices that don't necessarily reflect your class. A rogue of the same level shouln't stink worse than the fighter for attacking by example. From there, you add in Ability modifiers, armor, weapon proficiencies, magic etc. I'm not really sure I've seen the +1/2 level mechanic in Pathfinder's finalized rules. There is some thing akin to this in Star Wars: Saga though.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay


And screw PrCs anyway - they can accomplish the same thing with Feat-trees, without all that clutter. It was a great concept initially, but then it morphed into something unweildy. Just make certain feats only available to certain organizations and races (groups), and that would function in the way PrCs were originally intended.


PrCs should enhance your already gaining abilities, not supplant those aspects. First thing they need to do is do-away with a load of Prerequisites. Period. No more mechanical requirments for them except maybe a class or race if it's warrented. Second is to have more, less SUPER-POWERFUL features because this is where min/maxing get's ridiculous.

@ Ayrik: I like some of your examples and my use them with some homebrew rules I'm creating. For myself, I always consider a Natural 20 automatic success or Crit if it's an attack. I abolished confrim criticals in 3.5 for any natural 20 because you don't confirm natural 1s. I also like the idea of the attack doing max damage plus any other modifiers the weapon entails. So if you crit with a Longsword and normally deal 1d8+5/19-20x2 then it'll be 26 damage (13x2). It makes thing simpler instead of critical rolls doing less than a normal hit might do.

@ Old Man Harpell: While I think your break down of ability scores is really interesting and it's something I've never considered doing, does it become a bit too micro-managable? I mean, I personally don't see how you describe your character's appearance to have any sort of reflection of Charisma-modifier. An elf fighter could have an 8 in Charisma but still be a stunning or attractive individual. But they lack the social graces of communities outside of elves or act snobbish or be aloof.
Go to Top of Page

Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe

USA
495 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2012 :  05:34:19  Show Profile Send Old Man Harpell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
@ Old Man Harpell: While I think your break down of ability scores is really interesting and it's something I've never considered doing, does it become a bit too micro-managable? I mean, I personally don't see how you describe your character's appearance to have any sort of reflection of Charisma-modifier. An elf fighter could have an 8 in Charisma but still be a stunning or attractive individual. But they lack the social graces of communities outside of elves or act snobbish or be aloof.


I admit it does involve some extra bookwork, as you have to travel up and down the attribute chart for what effectively becomes two separate attributes. And some attributes, the DM may simply say 'no, I can't see that'. I would never, for example, allow a wizard to Split his Intelligence - that's simply too much headache, and despite my earlier example, I would be hesitant to allow a sorcerer to do the same with his Charisma. The mechanics themselves appeared in, I believe (I may be misremembering) Unearthed Arcana for 1st Edition.

One of my players is playing a (human) Witch (Pathfinder's Advanced Player's Guide). She (the witch) has a Charisma of 14, which was promptly split into Leadership 10/Appearance 18 (the maximum drift). The player created quite an excellent history that beautifully explained why, so I allowed it. While a beauty, she is embittered, suspicious, manipulative, and trusts absolutely no one (as a quick encapsulation). Since Charisma isn't a necessary attribute for her class (Intelligence is), and since she has a good explanation why, I allowed it.

Your point on Charisma not necessarily having anything to do with Appearance is well-taken...Hitler proved that in a sick, cultish way, as well as others in history. I see it as just another way to explain certain traits about a character.

Another system that was introduced was that of 'Comeliness' (this might have been the mechanic in Unearthed Arcana I was thinking about), and the fellow who was (is, on occasion) my DM used this mechanic. Simply put, Comeliness is your character's physical attractiveness, expressed in a number that is completely divorced from Charisma. Thus, as in your elf example, that elf fighter could indeed be a radiant beauty, but her personality (to non-elves, most certainly), would be akin to having a discussion with a grouchy aurumvorax.

Comeliness would either be determined with a die roll, like the other attributes, or simply hash out with the DM what you think it should be, and why you think a score of X is justified (this is what I would be inclined to do were I to use this mechanic, especially since I use Point Buy, and would not want to have to force players to allocate Points specifically to their Physical Appearance as well as the others).
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 3 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Previous Page | Next Page
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2024 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000