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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Oct 2011 : 17:00:26
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Barnabus the grey
is he entreri
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why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
Edited by - sfdragon on 13 Oct 2011 17:03:09
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2011 : 06:15:01
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Anyone who thought otherwise was deluded. I said that right after Gauntlgrym. The clues were plain to see for anyone who ever read other books by RAS.
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Dinnin
Seeker
Australia
53 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2011 : 01:41:26
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| the moment i read of Barrabus i knew it was him. Im just about finished Gauntlgrym and its a great read. |
"Use yer heads! A barnyard goose tastes better 'an a wild one cause it don't use its muscles. The same oughta hold true for a giant's brains!"
Bruenor Battlehammer |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2011 : 16:38:21
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| I found the Barrabus thing to be annoying. While him as a character was one of the few tolerable parts of the book, I felt keeping his identity a secret was rather pointless. If it was meant to be foreshadowing then Salvatore needs to look up the definition of subtly. If it was meant as a red herring then it'll be the most annoying un-reveal in his novels to date. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1265 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2011 : 16:48:21
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| Yeah I have no idea why Bob didn't just acknowledge Barrabus as Entreri right away...even a 12 year old reader of his books could have discerned that after the second time he was mentioned in Guantlgrym. It was not subtle, maybe he just thought the readers would have forgotten Entreri after so many books without him? I loved Guantlgrym as a book tho, a great read and a fitting ending to one of the great heroes of the Realms. But the whole side plot of WHO.IS.BARRABUS THE GREY? was weak. |
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Drizztsmanchild
Learned Scribe
USA
228 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2011 : 09:02:42
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Not to derail the critiques...which is why I usually stay out of these threads...but please understand something regarding Barrabus/Entreri. I wasn't trying to fool anyone from the introduction of Barrabus on.
I was letting readers meet this guy and take a measure of him. Yes, it became quite likely that he was Entreri, but never was I looking for the kind of "is it Wulfgar or Zak?" mystery. It was straightforward, letting you meet the guy as others would meet the guy and draw your own conclusions.
(This is in Bob's own Words from his forums on the Entreri/gray issue) |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2011 : 23:43:57
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When Bob revealed the identity of the dwarf and the drow behind the high captains in Luskan to be Arthrogate and Jarlaxle in The Pirate King, many readers complained that it was so obvious that he didn't even need to reveal their IDs at all.
But when he doesn't reveal the ID of this character, other readers complain.
So...WTH? |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Yoss
Learned Scribe
USA
259 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2011 : 14:02:46
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
When Bob revealed the identity of the dwarf and the drow behind the high captains in Luskan to be Arthrogate and Jarlaxle in The Pirate King, many readers complained that it was so obvious that he didn't even need to reveal their IDs at all.
But when he doesn't reveal the ID of this character, other readers complain.
So...WTH?
Because in the end, it is impossible to please everybody. And human nature dictates that people are going to point out when they dislike something. Negative opinions are far more easily expressed than positive ones, especially on the internet. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2011 : 16:28:41
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
When Bob revealed the identity of the dwarf and the drow behind the high captains in Luskan to be Arthrogate and Jarlaxle in The Pirate King, many readers complained that it was so obvious that he didn't even need to reveal their IDs at all.
But when he doesn't reveal the ID of this character, other readers complain.
So...WTH?
Oh, I thought it was stupid then, too. But then I could at least see the purpose; Athrogate and Jarlaxle weren't point of view characters in Pirate King. Not telling their identities, obvious as they were, showed us that the people they were around didn't know who they were.
On the other hand, Barrabus was a point of view character in Guantlgrym. Now, if Bobby boy was trying to establish that Artemis no longer thinks of himself as Artemis, that's fine. But he needed to establish that the two were in fact the same character for that contrast to sink in; as written, it really comes off as trying to set up the mystery of "who is Barrabus the Gray?" |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2011 : 17:39:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
When Bob revealed the identity of the dwarf and the drow behind the high captains in Luskan to be Arthrogate and Jarlaxle in The Pirate King, many readers complained that it was so obvious that he didn't even need to reveal their IDs at all.
But when he doesn't reveal the ID of this character, other readers complain.
So...WTH?
Oh, I thought it was stupid then, too. But then I could at least see the purpose; Athrogate and Jarlaxle weren't point of view characters in Pirate King. Not telling their identities, obvious as they were, showed us that the people they were around didn't know who they were.
On the other hand, Barrabus was a point of view character in Guantlgrym. Now, if Bobby boy was trying to establish that Artemis no longer thinks of himself as Artemis, that's fine. But he needed to establish that the two were in fact the same character for that contrast to sink in; as written, it really comes off as trying to set up the mystery of "who is Barrabus the Gray?"
Not really. It was glaringly obvious. Just as much so as it was with a mysterious dwarf with 2 morningstars saying "bwahaha"
I don"t get why anyone is bothered by this.
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1265 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2011 : 19:06:44
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I can't speak for anyone else, but when a writer is vague and doesn't give direct identities or answers---but drops a million little hints about the identity/situation, I expect a red herring (like when we expected Zak and got Wulfgar--it was interesting).
BUT when the writing is purposefully vague on identity but gives glaring hints and the answer turns out to be obvious, I think why bother with being vague and indirect in the first place? What purpose does it serve? I find that poor writing, myself, like the writer isn't giving the reader credit?
I dunno. I still loved Gauntlgrym AND Pirate King (which many didn't like) so don't think I'm hating on Bob!
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2011 : 20:35:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
I can't speak for anyone else, but when a writer is vague and doesn't give direct identities or answers---but drops a million little hints about the identity/situation, I expect a red herring (like when we expected Zak and got Wulfgar--it was interesting).
BUT when the writing is purposefully vague on identity but gives glaring hints and the answer turns out to be obvious, I think why bother with being vague and indirect in the first place? What purpose does it serve? I find that poor writing, myself, like the writer isn't giving the reader credit?
I dunno. I still loved Gauntlgrym AND Pirate King (which many didn't like) so don't think I'm hating on Bob!
Yeah... I'm about midway through reading Neverwinter, and the hints on Barrabus are thick to the point of "it pretty much can't be anyone else." But at the same time, it does feel like a giant red herring.
Why not just say, early on, that it's him with a new name? It's not like the reveal will be a shock by the time I get to it. Really strange, and distracting for the reader.
Other than that, though, pretty good novel. Standard Drizzt fare.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2011 : 20:56:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
When Bob revealed the identity of the dwarf and the drow behind the high captains in Luskan to be Arthrogate and Jarlaxle in The Pirate King, many readers complained that it was so obvious that he didn't even need to reveal their IDs at all.
But when he doesn't reveal the ID of this character, other readers complain.
So...WTH?
Oh, I thought it was stupid then, too. But then I could at least see the purpose; Athrogate and Jarlaxle weren't point of view characters in Pirate King. Not telling their identities, obvious as they were, showed us that the people they were around didn't know who they were.
On the other hand, Barrabus was a point of view character in Guantlgrym. Now, if Bobby boy was trying to establish that Artemis no longer thinks of himself as Artemis, that's fine. But he needed to establish that the two were in fact the same character for that contrast to sink in; as written, it really comes off as trying to set up the mystery of "who is Barrabus the Gray?"
Not really. It was glaringly obvious. Just as much so as it was with a mysterious dwarf with 2 morningstars saying "bwahaha"
I don"t get why anyone is bothered by this.
I never said he was doing a good job of setting up the mystery, and as stated that wasn't his intent. But it sure felt like he was either setting up the mystery or a red herring while being much too heavy handed with the hints. I've never credited Salvatore with a gift for subtly, though, so it's easy for me to jump to a negative conclusion. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2011 : 19:48:29
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I try to not post in writer - be it author and/or designer - critique threads for my own safety....
BUUUUUUTTT... I seriously doubt that RAS was trying to hide Athrogate and Jarlaxle's identities at any point in tPK. I'd have to whole-heartedly agree with Asmodeus and Firestorm on this one point - it is really a non-issue.
I haven't read Gauntlgrym, and probably never will (the FIRST RAS novel I intend to avoid), so I have no opinion on how that 'mystery' was handled.
However, just the name probably would have given it away for me - RAS only likes to use his own characters, and how many of his creations are GREY? <smirk> |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2011 : 20:08:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I try to not post in writer - be it author and/or designer - critique threads for my own safety....
BUUUUUUTTT... I seriously doubt that RAS was trying to hide Athrogate and Jarlaxle's identities at any point in tPK. I'd have to whole-heartedly agree with Asmodeus and Firestorm on this one point - it is really a non-issue.
I haven't read Gauntlgrym, and probably never will (the FIRST RAS novel I intend to avoid), so I have no opinion on how that 'mystery' was handled.
However, just the name probably would have given it away for me - RAS only likes to use his own characters, and how many of his creations are GREY? <smirk>
Why Avoid it? It was his best novel in a long long time. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2011 : 21:02:07
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As a big fan of continuity AND Fantasy Cartography - especially where The Realms are concerned - I cannot abide the misappropriation of lore/locales.
In other words, I avoid IT to avoid having it keeping me awake nights (and it would). Gauntlgrym appeared on a very early Realms map, and it's round-about location was revealed in at least two sources (not specifically, but the general area).
The one in the novel AIN'T Gauntlgrym... at least, not the original. Maybe some knock-off Gauntlgrym made in Hong Kong... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Oct 2011 21:03:16 |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2011 : 21:23:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As a big fan of continuity AND Fantasy Cartography - especially where The Realms are concerned - I cannot abide the misappropriation of lore/locales.
In other words, I avoid IT to avoid having it keeping me awake nights (and it would). Gauntlgrym appeared on a very early Realms map, and it's round-about location was revealed in at least two sources (not specifically, but the general area).
The one in the novel AIN'T Gauntlgrym... at least, not the original. Maybe some knock-off Gauntlgrym made in Hong Kong...
Perhaps the maps and sources you saw were false leads :P
Seems like a strange reason to avoid a great book :P |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1265 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2011 : 21:44:03
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I'll have to dig up my early references to Guantlgrym, I remember reading in the Grey Box set that it was found by a party of adventurers who came back super rich to Waterdeep from the North, and they bragged about it. Then they left to go get more of it but were never heard from again and it was implied they died to the guardians on their second attempt to go in. I'll dig it out, I don't remember any of the previous lore contradicting it so much, but I also didn't take that much attention as to how far from Luskan Gauntlgrym was when they found it in the book...
Was it from the Dwarves Deep accesory? I have to buy that one...! |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2011 : 22:50:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As a big fan of continuity AND Fantasy Cartography - especially where The Realms are concerned - I cannot abide the misappropriation of lore/locales.
In other words, I avoid IT to avoid having it keeping me awake nights (and it would). Gauntlgrym appeared on a very early Realms map, and it's round-about location was revealed in at least two sources (not specifically, but the general area).
The one in the novel AIN'T Gauntlgrym... at least, not the original. Maybe some knock-off Gauntlgrym made in Hong Kong...
Perhaps the maps and sources you saw were false leads :P
Seems like a strange reason to avoid a great book :P
I'm very much like MT in this. Inconsistencies drive me bananas in this world that I think has been so wonderfully constructed over decades. MT, I really think you should go with Firestorm's solution, however, because you are missing out on one heck of a novel. The whole, "the rumors were wrong" fix can be used quite easily on this one. |
Follow the Maztica (Aztec/Maya) and Anchorome (Indigenous North America) Campaigns on DMsGuild!
The Maztica Campaign
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2011 : 05:28:40
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I finished Neverwinter, but id it hit me that it was Entreri when I read gauntlgrym it never hit me.
it was a good read.
now I can get back to Blackveil |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
Edited by - sfdragon on 26 Oct 2011 05:29:02 |
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Yoss
Learned Scribe
USA
259 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2011 : 08:34:59
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| If you made it through the Hunters Blades and transitions trilogy, then you won't have huge issues with this one outside of a few minor details here and there. It's much, MUCH better. And I'm saying that as someone who has really big issues with inconsistencies, but it is good. It was particularly jarring when one of the Barrabus-is-Entreri mentions had to do with the last 50 pages of RotP apparently occurring in Calimport vs Memnon (although I'm starting to think I read that wrong, since I haven't read anyone either here or elsewhere mention it), and it's even more insane when it is inconsistencies within the author's own work (that's just lazy). But outside that, it's far more worth reading Gauntlgrym and Neverwinter than The Orc King or the 3 leading up to that one. |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1265 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2011 : 19:18:36
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| Haha Yoss...have to agree with you...my least fave Drizzt books by far are the Hunter's Blade Trilogy and Orc King (the other one being the Wulfgar novel where he is in the tiny castletown...I'm not a big Wulfgar fan and think he should have stayed dead). |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2011 : 19:30:04
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"inconsistencies within an author's own work"....
I could go on about that for days. 'He-who-must-not be named' is one of the worst offenders I have ever seen, but this isn't the thread for that. RAS is usually pretty good at self-continuity (but epic-bad at shared-world). He is one of those authors who really needs his own world, because he treats the shared one as if it was his private sandbox.
But that doesn't detract from the fact that he is an excellent writer.
And yes, I did manage to make it through his last few novels, including the bizarre-and-completely-unrelated-to-the-story last 1/3 of RotP and the Jump-the-Shark Thousand Orcs, and enjoyed them regardless...
But I have to draw the line somewhere, and when something completely goes against my own research - which is VERY thorough when it comes to locales - I just can't ignore it.
I will probably read the last three RAS FR novels at some point anyway, since I swore I would never read RotAW and now own the trilogy (I got it for my Birthday, and have yet to crack the covers... but I eventually will), so I have gone back on my self-promises before. Besides, I am now curious about the original topic.
I just feel like I have to keep giving up ground on my convictions just to stay a fan. At what point will enough be enough? I keep turning the other cheek when we get slapped, and I am fresh out of cheeks. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Oct 2011 19:35:51 |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1265 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2011 : 20:53:24
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quote:
last 50 pages of RotP apparently occurring in Calimport vs Memnon
Thinking as I type here...
Hmmm Artemis is from Memnon, right? He travelled to Calimport when he was in his very early teens? The caravan driver tried to molest him or something? Then he lived on the streets alone for a while after arriving until he was picked up by the guild.
And if I remember the end of RotP it was Artmeis going back to the dad and/or priest who molested him as a child and he saw his childhood home/mother/etc. which yeah...he's from Memnon not Calimport so that means the end of RotP should have been in Memnon...if it was retconned to Calimport that's weird!
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Yoss
Learned Scribe
USA
259 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2011 : 21:13:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
quote:
last 50 pages of RotP apparently occurring in Calimport vs Memnon
Thinking as I type here...
Hmmm Artemis is from Memnon, right? He travelled to Calimport when he was in his very early teens? The caravan driver tried to molest him or something? Then he lived on the streets alone for a while after arriving until he was picked up by the guild.
And if I remember the end of RotP it was Artmeis going back to the dad and/or priest who molested him as a child and he saw his childhood home/mother/etc. which yeah...he's from Memnon not Calimport so that means the end of RotP should have been in Memnon...if it was retconned to Calimport that's weird!
Yeah, it all happened in Memnon in RotP. The last few pages, the whole "Artemis Entreri is dead, he died in the Protectors House in Memnon" bit...it happened in Memnon. I'm inches away from scanning back through Neverwinter to find the exact quote where it was referenced, but it read something like talking about the one time Barrabus ever showed mercy was on a priest in Calimport where he, at another time, would have thrown the man from the cliff told him to go back and rebuild the temple...so on and so forth. Clearly the last part of RotP--clearly something that did not happen in Calimport. Now, unless I read it too quickly and missed something, that was one hell of a glaring error. Yes, it's possible I read it wrong, although I'm sure I read it through twice because I didn't want to run around griping about it incorrectly. I'm really going to have to go look for that paragraph now.
And like Mr Markus said, that last 1/3 of that book...very much WTF, so this ties into the story, how? Wait, it doesn't, it just makes a way to ditch Entreri for some undetermined length of time without killing him off/in a way where he can still come back later. But it definitely happened in Memnon.
Oddly enough, I enjoyed the Wulfgar book. I don't know how I enjoyed it, because I was never a huge fan of the guy and would have been fine with him staying dead. Not only that, but I turned into a pretty rabid Entreri fan by that point and it was one of the books standing between me--for chronology's sake--and the sellwords trilogy that I needed to fly through to get to what I really wanted to read. It's not something I plan on re-reading any time soon (or ever, if I'm going to be honest), but I thought it was much better than I expected it to be. Perhaps I was just overloaded on Drizzt at that point and welcomed the change, since I did read through all of RAS' FR stuff over the course of about 6 months. |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1265 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2011 : 21:22:03
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| Maybe it was Calimsham and you misread as Calimport? Just a thought :) As technically Calimsham would be right...I haven't read Neverwinter yet just Gauntlgrym and all the previous books. I shouldn't be reading this in case someone throws out a spoiler :p |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2011 : 21:37:23
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Awww, give the guy a break.
He's still trying to figure out how to spell Lolth.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Yoss
Learned Scribe
USA
259 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2011 : 21:39:19
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I found it. End of chapter 15.
And now I guess going to feel kind of like a tool not putting it behind spoiler tags, so we'll see if this works:
quote:
"Artemis Entreri.
Artemis Entreri!
The name resonated deeply within the soul of the assassin. His given name, that long ago moniker that had seeminly been lost to the ages, as the person who had once been Artemis Entreri had likewise been lost to the ages.
His thoughts went back to a long-ago day in Calimport, a day Entreri had come to cherish as the moment of his escape. Not from Drizzt Do'Urden, whom he'd thought dead. Not from Jarlaxle and the drow elves, for he was certain they would return for him, and they had. Not an escape from Herzgo Alegni, surely, a tiefling who likely wasn't even born at that time.
Nay, on that long-ago day, Artemis Enteeri had found a moment of mercy, and mercy on a priest no less, in exchange for a promise that the priest would behave according to his professed tenets, which promised benefit to the poor of the desert port city.
And it keeps going for the rest of the page, end of chapter 15, after he finally meets up with Drizzt."[/quote]
And it goes on for a bit more for the rest of the page, but essentially that's what I was talking about. But that totally happened in Memnon. And yes, they're both poor desert port cities, but c'mon...
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Yoss
Learned Scribe
USA
259 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2011 : 21:40:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Awww, give the guy a break.
He's still trying to figure out how to spell Lolth.
And whether Guenhwyvar has been neutered.
 I kid, I kid... |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2011 : 01:04:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Yoss
If you made it through the Hunters Blades and transitions trilogy, then you won't have huge issues with this one outside of a few minor details here and there. It's much, MUCH better. And I'm saying that as someone who has really big issues with inconsistencies, but it is good. It was particularly jarring when one of the Barrabus-is-Entreri mentions had to do with the last 50 pages of RotP apparently occurring in Calimport vs Memnon (although I'm starting to think I read that wrong, since I haven't read anyone either here or elsewhere mention it), and it's even more insane when it is inconsistencies within the author's own work (that's just lazy). But outside that, it's far more worth reading Gauntlgrym and Neverwinter than The Orc King or the 3 leading up to that one.
See, this is why things like this are largely matters of opinion; There wasn't a book in Hunter's Blades that I didn't prefer to gauntlgrym, and I think out of Transitions, only The Orc King is worse. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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neverwinter speculation spolier
