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dead
Acolyte
22 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Oct 2011 : 04:45:25
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Hi folks,
I'm just starting a new 3E campaign. The campaign starts in 1370DR.
One of my players has just created a drow cleric of Mystra.
Anyway, I know the Spellplague is a while away (15 years) but, it got me thinking, what happened to clerics of Mystra when the Spellplague hit in 1385DR?
I know there's some controversy over whether the Spellplague effects arcane and divine magic. For my campaign, it will effect both kinds of magic. I think it's just easier that way.
And we know that many mages are driven insane by the ravages of the Spellplague. However, I can't find any sources describing clerics going mad. Are there any canon references?
I know it's my campaign and I can save the PC from the ravages of the Spellplague if I so choose, but I was curious to see what other members of the FR community thought would have happened to clerics during the Spellplague and, in particular, clerics of Mystra.
Thank you
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2011 : 04:56:14
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they live till old age hit s them and they die.
oh wait, myou wanted to know who they converted to.
well
the NG, CG and CN ones likely converted to Selune.
the LG ones likely went to one of the ng LG or LN deiteis
the nutrael and lawful nutreal ones likely went to a LN ot NN deity.
this said,
with the 4e alignment stuff
the ng and cg became G
CN, LN and N became unaligned
LG is still LG.
Selune
Torm
Tempus
shar
you see |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2011 : 07:51:27
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Many might become generic clerics of the Faerūnian pantheon, no longer dedicated towards any particular ephemeral deity.
The loyalties of many might be seduced with Shar's Shadow Weave. Many might ally themselves to Selūne, Oghma, Tymora, Eldath, Milil, Kelemvor, Talos, Auril, the elemental lords, or any other power - depending on their inclinations. I would expect some number would stubbornly persist in their faith to Mystra regardless of the consequences, plus all sorts of splinter faiths and dogmatic schisms who consider only themselves worthy of restoring their religion. I would also expect at least a token resurgence of faith in Karsus and any number of other "dead" gods.
Probably also some sort of divine feeding frenzy: many deities might continue the 2E tradition of adopting/claiming priests from other faiths and even allowing them to maintain their existing granted powers, for a time at least, while gradually converting them to their preferred brand of worship. |
[/Ayrik] |
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dead
Acolyte
22 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2011 : 09:31:40
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Thanks guys.
I was more curious as to what effect the Spellplague had on clerics and, in particular, clerics of Mystra when it hit. For example, mages go insane and lose their power.
Is there any reference of such things happening to clerics? |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2011 : 11:09:54
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quote:
Originally posted by dead
I was more curious as to what effect the Spellplague had on clerics and, in particular, clerics of Mystra when it hit. For example, mages go insane and lose their power.
Is there any reference of such things happening to clerics?
From what I've read, it seemed to only implicate arcane spellcasters though I could easily see how there could be drastic effects on many clerics of Mystra as they just lost their deity. Again, it's left intentionally vague so a DM can say pretty much what he likes without stepping on Canon's toes too much.
As I game in the 1479 DR Realms, I still use clerics of Mystra though they're sort of a group of fanatical cultists who exsist to wipe out all followers of Shar and Cyric and find magical artifacts and spells in an attempt to bring her back. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2011 : 16:46:09
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quote:
Originally posted by dead
Thanks guys.
I was more curious as to what effect the Spellplague had on clerics and, in particular, clerics of Mystra when it hit. For example, mages go insane and lose their power.
Is there any reference of such things happening to clerics?
Not specifically with Mystra's clerics.
However, there were faithful of Eilistraee who had something of a crisis of faith when they felt her die (or go missing).
Suddenly, they were without the deity that granted them spells, and felt rather lost and adrift. In this case, Corellon was there immediately to help pick up the pieces, and most switched to him.
Game-wise, I'd have them lose their clerical powers until they dedicate themselves to another deity. They should also have a major shock from the disconnect, and react emotionally. In Mystra's case, I can easily see them adopting Selune (or Shar) or perhaps even Oghma. Losing your -god- should be a troubling, horrifying experience for a cleric because the deity provided not only security but also a sense of purpose in life.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2011 : 17:23:25
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| Since priests in the Realms (previously) derived their divine power through the Weave, the unraveling of the Weave which occurred during the Spellplague should have had a similar effect on priests as it did on arcane spellcasters. It should be noted though that the canonical effects of the Spellplague on spellcasters is hardly consistent. Mages in Thay for example did not go mad, while many in Cormyr did. I'd reconcile that by saying the Spellsplague is chaotic in nature, and various spikes and ebbs in intensity as it washed over regions of the Realms would account for the disparities. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2011 : 17:51:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
Since priests in the Realms (previously) derived their divine power through the Weave, the unraveling of the Weave which occurred during the Spellplague should have had a similar effect on priests as it did on arcane spellcasters. It should be noted though that the canonical effects of the Spellplague on spellcasters is hardly consistent. Mages in Thay for example did not go mad, while many in Cormyr did. I'd reconcile that by saying the Spellsplague is chaotic in nature, and various spikes and ebbs in intensity as it washed over regions of the Realms would account for the disparities.
While I'm aware of the canon fact that clerical/divine power was channeled through the Weave, this is the first time since the launch of 4E that I've seen someone suggest that the spellplague had the same effect on divine casters as arcane casters.
Is this a "probably, because logically it would've been so" suggestion, or are you revealing something about the spellplague that actually occurred in the canon timeline?
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 06 Oct 2011 17:54:06 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2011 : 17:53:54
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HOWEVER, as I have proven (and Ed agreed with IIRC), that deities CAN deliver spells without the Weave. Theoretically, Mystra and her clergy simply convinced everyone that Mystra's Weave was the only way, which is untrue, it is merely the most efficient way. There are canonical examples (Shar being the most obvious) of gods giving their clerics spells without using the Weave.
Mystra made it easy, and newer gods are (probably) unaware of the 'old method', so they use the Weave automatically (which Cyric stupidly did after ascending). 'Old Gods', like those in the Old Empires and demi-human deities, would have no need for the Weave (though they could still use it if they wished to).
Without the Weave, gods must focus more on their mortal clergy and deliver the spells by an act of will; the Weave is a fully-automated system, which most deities prefer. It was a brilliant coupe on Mystra's part.
Either way, I have to agree that ALL magic would have gone haywire after the Spellplague hit, including things that normally wouldn't be (like Psionics and Shadoweave Magic) - it was just too disruptive and monolithic not to have had a ripple effect on EVERYTHING. The Weave permeated every aspect of Torillian life.
As for the OP question: I would say it was entirely dependent on the personality (and mental stability) of the priest. Some would have went insane, others would have turned to like-minded deities (Larue?), and still others would have felt betrayed and turn to dark powers (like Shar). If the RW is any indication, not all clergy go 'into the business' for the right reasons, and this would effect their reaction to Mystra's last fall. I can think of several FR examples of 'false' priests in the Realms - the gods don't appear to be too picky about who works for them.
And some may have gone into hidden monasteries or become lone hermits, to await her return.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Oct 2011 21:46:22 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2011 : 19:29:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
HOWEVER, as I have proven (and Ed agreed with IIRC), that deities CAN deliver spells without the Weave. Theoretically, Mystra and her clergy simply convinced everyone that Mystra's Weave was the only way, which is untrue, it is merely the most efficient way. There are canonical examples (Shar being the most obvious) of gods giving their clerics spells without using the Weave.
Proven is always an interesting word when it comes to fantasy gaming rules and laws, as things tend to change with editions, novelists, even designer whims. That said, I think we've known this for quite a long time; I have memories back in 2E about Ed saying things about how divine magic worked or was delivered.
The general idea, IIRC, is that the Weave was just something that arcane and divine magic was channeled through, like a filtration process. Both divine and arcane magic could be utilized (or granted, in the case of deities) without the Weave, it was just more difficult. Although from a practical standpoint and gaming rules, this difference was transparent/meaningless from the perspective of mortals: they got their magic one way or another, and the method didn't impact the power level or anything else.
That said, this whole "Weave as a filter" wasn't really part of the original 1E canon of the Realms, as the Weave wasn't originally some kind of overlay on Raw Magic. The Weave was just the Weave, it -was- magic. The interposed filter came later, and intended to explain away wild magic, anti-magic, and dead magic zones in 2E... and later, such things as the shadow weave being a separate thing... and by 4E, that Mystra "lied about magic, it was all an attempt by her to control spellcasting in general" and other such strangeness.
At this point, there are so many inconsistencies and suppositions that you really have to decide on your own what's "true" and what's been "proven" in the Realms; and even if Ed Greenwood agrees with a stated theory, you still have to remember that Ed loves LOVES LOVES for things to be unclear to players (because no mortals really should know the truth of the gods, unless they become gods themselves).
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 06 Oct 2011 19:45:52 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2011 : 20:53:39
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Personally, I've always viewed the weave as a sort of saftey net for the most poweful of spells to be held in check (arcnae and divine). But I've never bought into the belief that the Weave focuses divine magic. For my campaigns, divine magic is focused through the faith of the participant and from the connection of their deity. In 4E, it's a little more different as it's more "faith based" and you receive your powers through the church and other Ordained rites and the deity over-sees what your doing with that divine magic.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2011 : 21:08:06
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| Pretty sure the Weave-as-filter idea has always been Realms canon -- just not published Realms canon. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2011 : 22:17:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Pretty sure the Weave-as-filter idea has always been Realms canon -- just not published Realms canon.
Agreed, though in my campaigns if the Weave fails, or in a Wild Magic zone, Divine magic works fine as it's granted by the Gods/Faith and not the environment. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2011 : 22:27:30
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Agreed.
I am not certain it was Ed - it may have been THO chiming-in in some random thread, but I was able to come up with many cases where the Weave could not have been involved in the delivery of spells. The best example would be that gods outside of FR can deliver spells to their priests without the Weave... this even goes for FR gods, because several of them have a presence outside of Realmspace (Oghma, Loviatar, Tyr, the Mulan gods of the Old Empires, most of the K-T deities, 4e Bane, etc, etc)
And if the Weave were the only way for deities to deliver spells to their followers in Realmspace, then the Creator races could not have had divine magic, since the Weave was created upon their destruction. I very much doubt the Creators could not receive spells from their gods (although I could be wrong... there may have only been Primordials back then).
Hmmmmm... you know what... now that I think about what I just said, it could be possible that a spell-delivery system was only necessary after the war between the deities and Primordials.
I think we may be on to something here.
Still, unless the Weave was far more pervasive then we have ever imagined (parts of it reaching into most other planes), then there has to be another (much harder) way for gods to give their worshipers spells. Continuing the computer analogy in the other thread, the Weave makes spell-giving like sending mass E-mails, as opposed to old-fashioned, hand-written snail-mail letters.
Considering the universal repercussions of the Spellplague, the Weave actually could have been far more pervasive then we thought, but that would automatically make both Mystra and Shar (and probably Selune) much more important then we have been lead to believe (as in, important to the greater D&D over-cosmology). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Oct 2011 22:29:23 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2011 : 01:40:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Pretty sure the Weave-as-filter idea has always been Realms canon -- just not published Realms canon.
Indeed. The Weave is one of the conduits/filters of magic through FR's prime. The FRCS, MoF and Ed's comments all make this pretty clear... |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2011 : 01:55:38
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Pretty sure the Weave-as-filter idea has always been Realms canon -- just not published Realms canon.
Indeed. The Weave is one of the conduits/filters of magic through FR's prime. The FRCS, MoF and Ed's comments all make this pretty clear...
I'll agree that it's that way now. But was this how the Weave was shown in 1E?
FRCS - compare the Gray Box vs. later editions of this.
MoF - 3rd edition.
Ed's comments - I'd like to see, from the 1E era, one of his comments saying that the Weave was this way.
I'll accept it if it can be adequately proven. 
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2011 : 02:41:03
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quote:
Originally posted by dead
What happened to clerics of Mystra when the Spellplague hit in 1385DR?
Adopted by Mystra's true and surviving allies. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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dead
Acolyte
22 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2011 : 03:03:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
HOWEVER, as I have proven (and Ed agreed with IIRC), that deities CAN deliver spells without the Weave. Theoretically, Mystra and her clergy simply convinced everyone that Mystra's Weave was the only way, which is untrue, it is merely the most efficient way. There are canonical examples (Shar being the most obvious) of gods giving their clerics spells without using the Weave.
Mystra made it easy, and newer gods are (probably) unaware of the 'old method', so they use the Weave automatically (which Cyric stupidly did after ascending). 'Old Gods', like those in the Old Empires and demi-human deities, would have no need for the Weave (though they could still use it if they wished to).
Without the Weave, gods must focus more on their mortal clergy and deliver the spells by an act of will; the Weave is a fully-automated system, which most deities prefer. It was a brilliant coupe on Mystra's part.
Yikes, canon sounds pretty confusing
In my game, I'm just going to say magic just "is" and it just happens that Faerunians call it the "Weave". So Mystra is a patron and protector of arcane and divine magic. (Azuth is exclusively arcane magic.)
This means, when Mystra died and the Spellplague ensued, both mages and clerics felt the backlash. Mages were more hardly hit due to the way they channel magic and many went insane. Clerics, however, were largely spared such a catastrophe... except clerics of Mystra. Clerics of Mystra were hit by the backlash as badly as mages.
Due to the chaotic nature of the Spellplague, some mages and clerics of Mystra were luckily uneffected. These mages and clerics might have been spared from going insane, but they still suffered from the loss of magic like everyone else during the Wailing Years (1385DR to 1395DR). (Of course, even after the Wailing Years, the clerics of Mystra don't get their powers back as Mystra is dead.) |
Edited by - dead on 07 Oct 2011 03:04:31 |
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dead
Acolyte
22 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2011 : 03:09:21
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quote:
... and by 4E, that Mystra "lied about magic, it was all an attempt by her to control spellcasting in general" and other such strangeness.
Just curious, do Mystra's clergy know about this revelation?
What did Mystra gain by controlling magic in this fashion? Was it for power gain?
Do some of her clergy resent her for this "deception"? Or, do they have a rational explanation for her actions and defend Mystra? |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2011 : 03:36:23
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Actually, while I do recall much discussion about Mystra and the Art, I don't recall any mention of the Weave in 1E, at least not prior to the Avatar Trilogy of novels ... which were written with the purpose of shifting the Realms into compliance with 2E rules. Perhaps I'm mistaken.
I also recall that early 2E explained Dead Magic zones as being rips, holes, and weak patches of the Weave, while Wild Magic zones were explained as localities where the Weave was somehow strained, warped, or contaminated through exposure to extremely intense conditions or events. Basically, magic didn't work in the former because the Weave was too weak or failed, magic was unpredictable in the latter because the Weave was somehow perverted, diseased, scarred, or damaged. I don't recall any particular mention of "filtering" properties because either magic and the Weave worked properly or it didn't. Again, I might be mistaken ... although it seems to me that the Weave itself (and its properties) wasn't particularly defined until it became necessary to do so somewhere in 3E.
[Edit]
FWIW, 2E priests of Mystra had a variety of granted powers, including:
Their spellcasting was completely unaffected and always operated normally within Dead Magic and Wild Magic zones. The only possible area exempt from offering this boon being the "Pits of Mystra" or "Helmlands" - the place where old Mystra was killed by Helm.
They could, at least at higher levels, permanently "repair" the Weave to remove Dead Magic and Wild Magic zones. Within limits.
(This was actually one of their most holy responsibilities, even though in my powergaming mind it would make more sense for them to turn the entire world into a single huge Dead Magic zone wherein only the Mystran priesthood's magics would operate. A monopoly to get rid of all those troublesome wizards and priests who align with other gods. Then again - if you think about it, this is exactly what what Mystryl/Mystra already did when constructing the Weave: a world-spanning Mystra-Magic zone which inhibits or suppresses all non-Mystran magic.) |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 07 Oct 2011 03:53:40 |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
657 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2011 : 07:22:28
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| My impression was is that every living being in contact suffered, the Chosen, Magister, spellshades and Spellfire wielders the most, followed by arcane spellcasters that used the Weave-Shadoweave and priests of Mystra, Azuth, Velsharoon and Savras. After them priests of Corellon Larethian, Cyric, Leira, Thoth, and other gods with magic domains, and fey warlocks. And so on. |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2011 : 15:31:17
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| In The Ghost King, at least initially magic failed for all spellcasters, not only arcane ones. However, only arcane spellcasters seemed to be harmed by the destruction of the Weave. Cadderly was only able to cast spells because he had a direct connection with Deneir (as Deneir's Chosen), who in turn [Spoiler:]seemed to be trying to fix the Weave and was in turn destroyed/evolved/devolved (still not really clear what happened to Deneir, but I am pretty sure it was supposed to be left up to the readers' imaginations) by that effort. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2011 : 15:33:43
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| I always thought it funny that Shar held power over the Shadow Weave all to herself. I felt it far more likely that it was a power shared between Shar and Leira. But, Leira lost her hold on the power when she had to go into hiding after her ultimate illusion to fake her death, and that's why there was this sudden surge in Shar's control of the shadow weave and its expansion in the realms (for let us not forget, Leira was a peer of sorts with Mystra, Azuth, and Savras). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2011 : 16:36:38
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I always thought it funny that Shar held power over the Shadow Weave all to herself. I felt it far more likely that it was a power shared between Shar and Leira. But, Leira lost her hold on the power when she had to go into hiding after her ultimate illusion to fake her death, and that's why there was this sudden surge in Shar's control of the shadow weave and its expansion in the realms (for let us not forget, Leira was a peer of sorts with Mystra, Azuth, and Savras).
I very much like this Sleyvas. I'm still of the opinion that Leira is lurking out there somewhere but biding her time. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2011 : 17:04:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I always thought it funny that Shar held power over the Shadow Weave all to herself. I felt it far more likely that it was a power shared between Shar and Leira. But, Leira lost her hold on the power when she had to go into hiding after her ultimate illusion to fake her death, and that's why there was this sudden surge in Shar's control of the shadow weave and its expansion in the realms (for let us not forget, Leira was a peer of sorts with Mystra, Azuth, and Savras).
I very much like this Sleyvas. I'm still of the opinion that Leira is lurking out there somewhere but biding her time.
To what end? |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2011 : 17:40:04
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To address the OP, we don't have all the facts, so there's a great deal of freedom in how you handle it in your game. What seems most likely is that clerics of Mystra lost their powers (because when your god dies, that's what happens) and at least some went mad as they were hit by the spellplague. Those that survived would then have a choice: be absorbed into another church, turn your back on faith, or strike out as a cultist trying to bring your goddess back to life.
In one of my current 4e games, we have a paladin of Mystra who wields silver fire and whose divine powers do indeed manifest in a Mystra-ish way: with seven stars, for instance, or silver-blue flames. He's a chosen of a dead goddess, essentially, and none of us really understand how that can be. (The DM has yet to reveal the truth of the matter.) I would speculate that it's very possible for a mortal to hold a spark of divine power, and still have spells granted by that deity, regardless of whether the deity is alive.
But lest I spoil a DDI article I'm working on, I'll say no more on that point.
For your priest of Mystra, the shattering of divine power and faith should be a major thing in the story, and how the priest regains his powers (if he ever does) should be a major quest.
@"Mystra's Deception":
I wouldn't so much think of it as Mystra "lying" to everyone about how the Weave worked, but more of Ao having set up magic that way so that he could place someone in charge of magic--i.e. to keep the reins on it. Once the filter got blown up, then everyone figured out how to access magic directly, though it's much harder than it used to be. I'm fairly certain a 3.5 wizard would mop the floor with a 4e wizard any day of the week.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I always thought it funny that Shar held power over the Shadow Weave all to herself. I felt it far more likely that it was a power shared between Shar and Leira. But, Leira lost her hold on the power when she had to go into hiding after her ultimate illusion to fake her death, and that's why there was this sudden surge in Shar's control of the shadow weave and its expansion in the realms (for let us not forget, Leira was a peer of sorts with Mystra, Azuth, and Savras).
I very much like this Sleyvas. I'm still of the opinion that Leira is lurking out there somewhere but biding her time.
To what end?
Cyric's, maybe?
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2011 : 18:10:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I always thought it funny that Shar held power over the Shadow Weave all to herself. I felt it far more likely that it was a power shared between Shar and Leira. But, Leira lost her hold on the power when she had to go into hiding after her ultimate illusion to fake her death, and that's why there was this sudden surge in Shar's control of the shadow weave and its expansion in the realms (for let us not forget, Leira was a peer of sorts with Mystra, Azuth, and Savras).
I very much like this Sleyvas. I'm still of the opinion that Leira is lurking out there somewhere but biding her time.
Very likely. Perhaps Mask is even working for her. Shar isn't the only deity who knows how keep secrets. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2011 : 01:38:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I always thought it funny that Shar held power over the Shadow Weave all to herself. I felt it far more likely that it was a power shared between Shar and Leira. But, Leira lost her hold on the power when she had to go into hiding after her ultimate illusion to fake her death, and that's why there was this sudden surge in Shar's control of the shadow weave and its expansion in the realms (for let us not forget, Leira was a peer of sorts with Mystra, Azuth, and Savras).
I very much like this Sleyvas. I'm still of the opinion that Leira is lurking out there somewhere but biding her time.
I've speculated previously -- based on collective musings with Krash and Sage Schend -- that Leira is still around and secretly allied with Mask. Their aim: to steal control of the Shadow Weave from Shar who they've been running as their dupe for a while now.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2011 : 06:35:34
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My understanding was that Leira was somehow attacked or slain by Cyric shortly after his ascension - isn't this how Cyric assimilated part of her power, giving him the portfolio of lies and deception? In fact, I believe he used the weapon Godsbane, thus (unknowingly) allowing Mask to absorb some of Leira's power, giving Mask the portfolio of intrigue and misdirection. It would be interesting indeed if Mask (God of Shadows, Thieves, and Dodgy Doublecrossing Slimebags in general, y'know) had stolen more of deposed Leira's power than Cyric and was in truth now the hidden God of Illusion, using this power to maintain the power itself behind the mask and intrigue of an entirely false illusory deity (who even fools his own faithful, regardless which mask they worship). A masterpiece of self-serving theft, manipulation, treachery, and deception fit for the god of such things, a successful lie used against the Prince of Lies. The more I think about it, the more unavoidably obvious it seems.
A Shadow Weave alliance of some sort between Shar and Cyric seems probable in any event, particularly since Cyric has always maintained a self-declared personal vendetta against Mystra. What better way to oppose his nemesis than to control a magical counter-Weave? What better way to build an army of evil shades than to have Cyric's Dark Sun rise over Shar's Infinite Darkness?
Not that I like Cyric, mind ye. He's a simpering insane idiot. He even has pathetic stats and unoriginal backstory. Yet he is of course perfectly well positioned to take advantage of his (and Shar's) maleficent station within his divine hierarchy, plus he has managed to stay alive and even prosper, unlike some incompetent Faerūnian powers I won't bother to mention. He even pulled off a really good FR novel or two. I'd rather see this half-useless god salvaged and reworked into something respectable than see yet another incarnation of You-Know-Who assigned to the same tired old fail spot in the pantheon. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 08 Oct 2011 13:07:09 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2011 : 15:52:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I always thought it funny that Shar held power over the Shadow Weave all to herself. I felt it far more likely that it was a power shared between Shar and Leira. But, Leira lost her hold on the power when she had to go into hiding after her ultimate illusion to fake her death, and that's why there was this sudden surge in Shar's control of the shadow weave and its expansion in the realms (for let us not forget, Leira was a peer of sorts with Mystra, Azuth, and Savras).
I very much like this Sleyvas. I'm still of the opinion that Leira is lurking out there somewhere but biding her time.
Very likely. Perhaps Mask is even working for her. Shar isn't the only deity who knows how keep secrets.
Good point since Godsbane (which is what supposedly slew Leira and not Cyric) was indeed Mask. I can definitely see Mask and Leira hatching some nefarious plot of this sort together (him as a plotter, her as a liar). As to the ends... maybe it was to get this new upstart Mystra out of the way? Nothing says that Leira was exactly happy when this innocent young girl was given the power of Mystra. Also, maybe the two were hoping Shar would suffer some kind of backlash as a result too. When it comes to the mind of Leira and Mask and their ability to plot / lie.... the bounds of the human mind are hard pressed to see the whole pattern. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2011 : 15:59:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
My understanding was that Leira was somehow attacked or slain by Cyric shortly after his ascension - isn't this how Cyric assimilated part of her power, giving him the portfolio of lies and deception? In fact, I believe he used the weapon Godsbane, thus (unknowingly) allowing Mask to absorb some of Leira's power, giving Mask the portfolio of intrigue and misdirection. It would be interesting indeed if Mask (God of Shadows, Thieves, and Dodgy Doublecrossing Slimebags in general, y'know) had stolen more of deposed Leira's power than Cyric and was in truth now the hidden God of Illusion, using this power to maintain the power itself behind the mask and intrigue of an entirely false illusory deity (who even fools his own faithful, regardless which mask they worship). A masterpiece of self-serving theft, manipulation, treachery, and deception fit for the god of such things, a successful lie used against the Prince of Lies. The more I think about it, the more unavoidably obvious it seems.
A Shadow Weave alliance of some sort between Shar and Cyric seems probable in any event, particularly since Cyric has always maintained a self-declared personal vendetta against Mystra. What better way to oppose his nemesis than to control a magical counter-Weave? What better way to build an army of evil shades than to have Cyric's Dark Sun rise over Shar's Infinite Darkness?
Not that I like Cyric, mind ye. He's a simpering insane idiot. He even has pathetic stats and unoriginal backstory. Yet he is of course perfectly well positioned to take advantage of his (and Shar's) maleficent station within his divine hierarchy, plus he has managed to stay alive and even prosper, unlike some incompetent Faerūnian powers I won't bother to mention. He even pulled off a really good FR novel or two. I'd rather see this half-useless god salvaged and reworked into something respectable than see yet another incarnation of You-Know-Who assigned to the same tired old fail spot in the pantheon.
Cyric's a simpering insane idiot because he developed a powerful magic item that made him believe his own lies. Now, does that sound like Mask's doing, or does that sound like Leira's? I'm voting Leira and there's just been a masterful bit of illusion playing to clear some of the chess pieces from the board.
A little more food for thought... how many deities were working through Alias' (or using "illusions" or "lies" about who they were) and its since been "revealed" that they're just one single entity. Now, depending on what direction you want to go with this... whether they truly were the same beings or truly were separate beings and what's being told in 4E is a lie.... it could be a result of the hand of the master illusionist. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Spellplague: What happens to clerics of Mystra?
