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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader

USA
3085 Posts

Posted - 03 Oct 2011 :  17:29:52  Show Profile Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478

Just to clarify: i am not a slow reader, just wish i could read super fast since there are 100's of books i have yet to have time for.

Oh, I know. Someone who reads really "fat" books can't be a slow reader.



I do love a good fat fantasy book. Though i did just purchase the complete FR Double Diamond Triangle Saga off of Ebay, so i guess i will read the skinny books as well.

Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin

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Edited by - Artemas Entreri on 03 Oct 2011 17:30:55
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6607 Posts

Posted - 03 Oct 2011 :  20:24:37  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
entreri3478

Stephen King as a fantasy author? barf
I generally agree wholeheartedly, I refuse to stomach such pulp. However, I actually liked Eyes of the Dragon. Odd that his one and only book of pure fantasy should have been so much better, IMO, than the usual logorrheic drivel he puts to page.

[/Ayrik]
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe

Canada
802 Posts

Posted - 03 Oct 2011 :  20:40:14  Show Profile Send Firestorm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

quote:
entreri3478

Stephen King as a fantasy author? barf
I generally agree wholeheartedly, I refuse to stomach such pulp. However, I actually liked Eyes of the Dragon. Odd that his one and only book of pure fantasy should have been so much better, IMO, than the usual logorrheic drivel he puts to page.



As much as I do not groove with his writing style and have a hard time reading his books, I find most movies based on his books/Short stories to be very enjoyable.
Shawshank Redemption, It, The Langoliers, 1408, The Shining, Firestarter, The Running man, Pet Cemetery, The Green Mile, The Lawnmower man, Children of the Corn, The Mist, Apt Pupil, The Stand..........
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Therise
Master of Realmslore

1265 Posts

Posted - 03 Oct 2011 :  20:41:22  Show Profile Send Therise a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

quote:
entreri3478

Stephen King as a fantasy author? barf
I generally agree wholeheartedly, I refuse to stomach such pulp. However, I actually liked Eyes of the Dragon. Odd that his one and only book of pure fantasy should have been so much better, IMO, than the usual logorrheic drivel he puts to page.


Jocularity! 'Tis oft better to be unaffected than grandiloquent, aye?

4E Realms was awful, but it's water under the Boareskyr Bridge. Let's make 5E Realms truly shine!
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 03 Oct 2011 :  23:08:29  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
of the above list of films, I enjoyed several (but not all), and two were amazing: Shawshank Redemption and Green Mile. I had no idea Stephen King had anything to do with those. You learn something new every day.

Funny how they both have to do with prison. Maybe he can create a new genre (although I think porn already has a sub-genre in that vein LOL)

Movies never do the novels justice - Jaws was a mediocre movie (although it scared the heck out of my, being as I live in the vicinity of where it supposedly takes place), but the novel was very good (another case of me being stuck someplace with nothing to read - in this case in Jersey for the summer and naught but my Aunt's book collection). I don't enjoy horror for horror's sake, and much of modern horror is just that; gruesome special effects with very little story.

Alfred Hitchcock is rolling over in his grave.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Faraer
Great Reader

3308 Posts

Posted - 03 Oct 2011 :  23:39:46  Show Profile  Visit Faraer's Homepage Send Faraer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
There are so many sub-genres of fantasy I don't think an answer to this question is possible. Aren't things like Indiana Jones, Wild, Wild West, and The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen all fantasy? Isn't Star Wars?

Even the DaVinci Code could be classified as fantasy, because anything fictional (even if based upon half-truths) is fantasy, technically.

Fantasy in the largest sense is a very wide class of which realist fiction is necessarily a subset. Secondary-world heroic fantasy -- the sense in which Dennis originally used 'fantasists' -- is a genre, taxonomically equivalent to crime, horror, science fiction, literary fiction, etc.

Ideas of genre can be useful, and they can mislead: for instance, writing in a genre (or a medium) only bounds what you can do in a few out of myriad possible directions. Yet still often the LF people can't see the walls of their own house, and talk of 'transcending' other genres as if such a thing was necessary.

Edited by - Faraer on 03 Oct 2011 23:50:45
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe

USA
473 Posts

Posted - 03 Oct 2011 :  23:46:44  Show Profile  Visit Old Man Harpell's Homepage Send Old Man Harpell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Voted Tokien.

I prefer Michael Moorcock and R.E.H., but Tolkien is, to me, the unchallenged Moses-figure of the fantasy genre as we know it.
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 04 Oct 2011 :  09:45:22  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Iím inclined to agree with MT. Most movie adaptations rarely give the novels justice. Though if the authors are given hand in the production, say, they themselves wrote the script, the results are spectacular. Off the top of my head, I can say the ones that gave justice to the novels were Stardust, Goblet of Fire, Prisoner of Azkaban, and others of different genres: I Am Number Four, Something Borrowed, Someone Like You, and Dream Boy.

Every beginning has an end.

Edited by - Dennis on 04 Oct 2011 09:46:03
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 04 Oct 2011 :  09:52:58  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer

Fantasy in the largest sense is a very wide class of which realist fiction is necessarily a subset. Secondary-world heroic fantasy -- the sense in which Dennis originally used 'fantasists' -- is a genre, taxonomically equivalent to crime, horror, science fiction, literary fiction, etc.

Ideas of genre can be useful, and they can mislead: for instance, writing in a genre (or a medium) only bounds what you can do in a few out of myriad possible directions. Yet still often the LF people can't see the walls of their own house, and talk of 'transcending' other genres as if such a thing was necessary.


That is why it is really difficult to categorize a book. Some authors use so many elements of various genres. But I guess, when you read a novel, you will know. Instinct. Plain and simple. I know itís rather too easy an explanation and begs more argument more than it solves the problem. However, letís remember that reading is a very personal activity. Who better knows what it is he is reading than the reader himself?

Every beginning has an end.
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader

USA
3085 Posts

Posted - 04 Oct 2011 :  13:37:54  Show Profile Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

of the above list of films, I enjoyed several (but not all), and two were amazing: Shawshank Redemption and Green Mile. I had no idea Stephen King had anything to do with those. You learn something new every day.

Funny how they both have to do with prison. Maybe he can create a new genre (although I think porn already has a sub-genre in that vein LOL)

Movies never do the novels justice - Jaws was a mediocre movie (although it scared the heck out of my, being as I live in the vicinity of where it supposedly takes place), but the novel was very good (another case of me being stuck someplace with nothing to read - in this case in Jersey for the summer and naught but my Aunt's book collection). I don't enjoy horror for horror's sake, and much of modern horror is just that; gruesome special effects with very little story.

Alfred Hitchcock is rolling over in his grave.



I believe the full title of the novella was Rita Hayworth and the Shawshank Redemption. If you have seen the movie then this makes complete sense.

Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin

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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 05 Oct 2011 :  00:13:58  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wow. Hard to pin down just ONE. But, I'll add my two Zhents anyway. I'm voting other, because you also failed to include such long-time fantasy stapels as Piers Anthony and Robert Asperin. (Both rather jokular writers, I know, but they practically INVENTED homorous fantasy- and both are exceptionally good at world-building and plotting: see Xanth, the Mode worlds, Phaze/Proton, Klah/Deva/Perv, and others....) as well as old favorites and my personal intros to fantasy (along with the above-named) of C.S. Lewis and Frank Baum. and Howard and Let's not forget Shakespeare himself- Midsummer Night's Dream, Tempest, and Macbeth, anyone? And Aesop, Homer, Virgil, et al..... So many....

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Faraer
Great Reader

3308 Posts

Posted - 05 Oct 2011 :  00:57:49  Show Profile  Visit Faraer's Homepage Send Faraer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I disagree with a lot of what Moorcock wrote in Wizardry and Wild Romance, but he was correct in reacting to the burgeoning fantasy market far too much of which was made up of people who read The Lord of the Rings and missed the point. The lasting value of Tolkien's creation stems in large part from his Catholicism, his philology and his war experiences. Without these, his painstaking worldbuilding would have been just a diverting hobby. (Likewise, my love of Realmslore is underpinned by Ed Greenwood's wry, gentle humour and kindness and humanistic life-philosophy and my least favourite Realms work is what parts furthest from that.) Considering Tolkien's peers from the last century, I think of radically transformative imaginations like Yeats, Borges, Burroughs, Wolfe, and Stafford.
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader

USA
3085 Posts

Posted - 05 Oct 2011 :  14:39:51  Show Profile Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BARDOBARBAROS

From this list i picked Tolkien...But WHERE IS ROBERT E. HOWARD?????

Robert Howard is for me the best storyteller of fantasy ....He had an overwhelming talent on writing!!!

But and Tolkien was a creative mind with Middle Earth...



I have been meaning to try some Robert Howard for awhile now. Are the Conan books ordered or stand-alone? Could i just pick up one and read through without missing any back story?

Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin

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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 05 Oct 2011 :  16:35:37  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
[...] Let's not forget Shakespeare himself- Midsummer Night's Dream, Tempest, and Macbeth, anyone? [...]

Calling Shakepeare a "fantasist" would be far too limiting. He's the God of Literature. He invented, or rather explored the full potentials of almost all literary genres.

Every beginning has an end.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31144 Posts

Posted - 05 Oct 2011 :  17:32:09  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
[...] Let's not forget Shakespeare himself- Midsummer Night's Dream, Tempest, and Macbeth, anyone? [...]

Calling Shakepeare a "fantasist" would be far too limiting. He's the God of Literature. He invented, or rather explored the full potentials of almost all literary genres.



Or Francis Bacon did.

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Therise
Master of Realmslore

1265 Posts

Posted - 05 Oct 2011 :  17:32:35  Show Profile Send Therise a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
[...] Let's not forget Shakespeare himself- Midsummer Night's Dream, Tempest, and Macbeth, anyone? [...]

Calling Shakepeare a "fantasist" would be far too limiting. He's the God of Literature. He invented, or rather explored the full potentials of almost all literary genres.


**nearly chokes on coffee**

Shakespeare owes a lot to Virgil, Aristophanes, Ovid, Horace, Sophocles, Euripedes...

4E Realms was awful, but it's water under the Boareskyr Bridge. Let's make 5E Realms truly shine!
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Thelonius
Senior Scribe

Spain
726 Posts

Posted - 05 Oct 2011 :  17:51:20  Show Profile  Click to see Thelonius's MSN Messenger address Send Thelonius a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Therise

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
[...] Let's not forget Shakespeare himself- Midsummer Night's Dream, Tempest, and Macbeth, anyone? [...]

Calling Shakepeare a "fantasist" would be far too limiting. He's the God of Literature. He invented, or rather explored the full potentials of almost all literary genres.


**nearly chokes on coffee**

Shakespeare owes a lot to Virgil, Aristophanes, Ovid, Horace, Sophocles, Euripedes...


And they owe quite a lot to older myths from the ancient eaasterner culture and from the yet more archaic cultures from their regions.... so we could go like that for ages Maybe a "relatively modern" clarification should be added?

"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est

Edited by - Thelonius on 05 Oct 2011 17:53:09
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Therise
Master of Realmslore

1265 Posts

Posted - 05 Oct 2011 :  18:02:36  Show Profile Send Therise a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius

quote:
Originally posted by Therise

**nearly chokes on coffee**

Shakespeare owes a lot to Virgil, Aristophanes, Ovid, Horace, Sophocles, Euripedes...


And they owe quite a lot to older myths from the ancient eaasterner culture and from the yet more archaic cultures from their regions.... so we could go like that for ages Maybe a "relatively modern" clarification should be added?


Well sure, but Shakespeare as the "God of Literature"? Come on. Well respected as a playwright and storyteller, absolutely. But compare him to Marlowe, Kyd, both of whom had strong influences on Shakespeare... heck, what about Chaucer, who is actually considered the Father of English Literature?


4E Realms was awful, but it's water under the Boareskyr Bridge. Let's make 5E Realms truly shine!
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader

USA
3085 Posts

Posted - 05 Oct 2011 :  18:10:49  Show Profile Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
[...] Let's not forget Shakespeare himself- Midsummer Night's Dream, Tempest, and Macbeth, anyone? [...]

Calling Shakepeare a "fantasist" would be far too limiting. He's the God of Literature. He invented, or rather explored the full potentials of almost all literary genres.



What other areas are covered under this Portfolio?

Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin

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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader

USA
3085 Posts

Posted - 05 Oct 2011 :  18:21:19  Show Profile Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
How does Robert Jordan still have zero votes but Weis has 3%? Weird.

Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin

Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2

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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 05 Oct 2011 :  21:09:02  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
[...] Let's not forget Shakespeare himself- Midsummer Night's Dream, Tempest, and Macbeth, anyone? [...]

Calling Shakepeare a "fantasist" would be far too limiting. He's the God of Literature. He invented, or rather explored the full potentials of almost all literary genres.


And they owe quite a lot to older myths from the ancient eaasterner culture and from the yet more archaic cultures from their regions.... so we could go like that for ages Maybe a "relatively modern" clarification should be added?

I thought I wrote God of Modern Literature. Quite a few other philosophers, writers and story-tellers centuries before the apex of his career did invent several genres, but it was he who polished those almost perfectly.

Every beginning has an end.
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Therise
Master of Realmslore

1265 Posts

Posted - 05 Oct 2011 :  21:54:40  Show Profile Send Therise a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
[...] Let's not forget Shakespeare himself- Midsummer Night's Dream, Tempest, and Macbeth, anyone? [...]

Calling Shakepeare a "fantasist" would be far too limiting. He's the God of Literature. He invented, or rather explored the full potentials of almost all literary genres.


And they owe quite a lot to older myths from the ancient eaasterner culture and from the yet more archaic cultures from their regions.... so we could go like that for ages Maybe a "relatively modern" clarification should be added?

I thought I wrote God of Modern Literature. Quite a few other philosophers, writers and story-tellers centuries before the apex of his career did invent several genres, but it was he who polished those almost perfectly.


Oh, I see. Modern Literature. So you're putting Shakespeare in the same class as Ezra Pound and T.S. Eliot, James Joyce, and Gertrude Stein, even though Shakespeare wrote nothing relating to industrialization or globalization.

I think the term you're looking for is Elizabethan.


4E Realms was awful, but it's water under the Boareskyr Bridge. Let's make 5E Realms truly shine!
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 05 Oct 2011 :  22:01:45  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478

How does Robert Jordan still have zero votes but Weis has 3%? Weird.

Maybe those who want to vote for him prefer that I also include Brandon Sanderson on the same option, given his contributions to the WoT series. Robert Jordan and Brandon Sanderson...like Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman.

Or perhaps those who do like him voted Tolkien instead.

Every beginning has an end.
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Faraer
Great Reader

3308 Posts

Posted - 05 Oct 2011 :  23:01:34  Show Profile  Visit Faraer's Homepage Send Faraer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
I have been meaning to try some Robert Howard for awhile now. Are the Conan books ordered or stand-alone? Could i just pick up one and read through without missing any back story?

The best Conan edition is the current volumes produced by Wandering Star and published by Del Rey, which collect the stories in the order Howard wrote them, which is mainly the same order they were originally published in Weird Tales. They move back and forward in Conan's life, and I recommend reading them in this order, as vivid episodes rather than a reconstructed chronicle. This is the most popular ordering of the stories in terms of internal chronology, should you wish to read them that way.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31691 Posts

Posted - 06 Oct 2011 :  01:41:21  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478

How does Robert Jordan still have zero votes but Weis has 3%? Weird.

Because many fantasy readers may feel somewhat intimated by tackling Jordan's massive masterpiece, and so they avoid it.

I know many of the fantasy-reading folk I interact with back in Australia only, unfortunately, frequent authors who don't have an extensive back-history of novels to read through. Instead, they grab the latest books by new and upcoming authors, so they're around from the beginning, should these works expand into "Wheel of Time"-like proportions.

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