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Clad In Shadows
Learned Scribe
Canada
158 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Sep 2011 : 22:35:23
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Hey all, so I have never read the Elminster series. My brother had the first two books, I believe, but I never did get around to reading them. So I managed to track down a copy of the annotated Elminster as well as Hell, Daughter, and Elminster Must Die. I'll also be grabbing Bury Elminster Deep soon as I plan on just reading them back to back.
I do have a question though. How does Shadow Of The Avatar fit into things? I've read that Elminster is either a character in these books, or at least makes appearances. Is it important to read those? And if so, at what point in the series should I be reading them?
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1267 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2011 : 23:23:28
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Chronologically they would fall between Annotated Elminster and Elminster in Hell AFAIK, they are set during the Time of Troubles.
Elminster definitely features in them but they are more about the Rangers Three. I liked that series (the first 2 books were better than the 3rd) and it's nice to have more of Sylune, she is a great character.
I don't think you need to read them in the Elminster series but I read them as kind of a Avatar Trilogy supplement of sorts (in particular the Battle of Shadowdale); like the Lost Chronicles to the Dragonlance Chronicles.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2011 : 08:20:42
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Shadows of Doom, Book One of the Shadow of the Avatar trilogy, was very disappointing. Seravin has the right of it: you need not read the said trilogy to fully understand the Elminster series; the SotA was more like a different version of the Avatar series as seen in Elminster's perspective. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2011 : 14:37:01
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| I would read 1 "Elminster" book before purchasing all of them. Ed has a writing style that many Realms fans don't care for. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2011 : 14:57:30
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I recommend you start with the very first, The Making of a Mage. It's one of Ed's best. And you will really sympathize with Elminster. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1267 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2011 : 16:47:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Shadows of Doom, Book One of the Shadow of the Avatar trilogy, was very disappointing. Seravin has the right of it: you need not read the said trilogy to fully understand the Elminster series; the SotA was more like a different version of the Avatar series as seen in Elminster's perspective.
Which book had the Zhents marching on Shadowdale and the big fight in Mistledale where Torm's avatar appeared? I really enjoyed that one... especially when the Simbul took out that Zhent mage flying above spying while she was still in raven form...hah. Darn. And yes, Ed's writing style is an acquired taste. I love his characters and world of course (we all do) but his novel endings always seem hugely muddled/rushed for some reason. |
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Merrith
Learned Scribe
135 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2011 : 00:08:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Shadows of Doom, Book One of the Shadow of the Avatar trilogy, was very disappointing. Seravin has the right of it: you need not read the said trilogy to fully understand the Elminster series; the SotA was more like a different version of the Avatar series as seen in Elminster's perspective.
Which book had the Zhents marching on Shadowdale and the big fight in Mistledale where Torm's avatar appeared? I really enjoyed that one... especially when the Simbul took out that Zhent mage flying above spying while she was still in raven form...hah. Darn. And yes, Ed's writing style is an acquired taste. I love his characters and world of course (we all do) but his novel endings always seem hugely muddled/rushed for some reason.
Believe it was actually Tempus' avatar, and far as I remember that was the 3rd one All Shadows Fled. Agreed Ed's style is much different from everyone else's, which is just one of a number of reasons I love it so much. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2011 : 11:52:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Merrith
Agreed Ed's style is much different from everyone else's, which is just one of a number of reasons I love it so much.
He's often very effective in evoking any setting and describing battle scenes, but at times, or should I say recently, his writing looks like a child lost in the woods and wandering aimlessly; [and the unfortunate reader is forced to follow such endless, desultory meandering]. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2011 : 14:07:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Merrith
Agreed Ed's style is much different from everyone else's, which is just one of a number of reasons I love it so much.
He's often very effective in evoking any setting and describing battle scenes, but at times, or should I say recently, his writing looks like a child lost in the woods and wandering aimlessly; [and the unfortunate reader is forced to follow such endless, desultory meandering].
Well said Dennis |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1267 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2011 : 16:57:18
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| One of the things I love about Ed's work is that I know I can follow it up to any of the source books (mostly written by Ed like Volo's guides) and find consistency in the setting/characters. That's amazing and harder to do with any other authors unless say Bob Salvatore is writing about Vassa and Damarra like the last 2 sell sword books. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2011 : 21:12:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
One of the things I love about Ed's work is that I know I can follow it up to any of the source books (mostly written by Ed like Volo's guides) and find consistency in the setting/characters. That's amazing and harder to do with any other authors unless say Bob Salvatore is writing about Vassa and Damarra like the last 2 sell sword books.
I really enjoy Ed's "nonfiction" realms stuff from modules/campaign guides/etc; but i have just never been able to get on board with his writing style for the novels. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2011 : 23:50:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
One of the things I love about Ed's work is that I know I can follow it up to any of the source books (mostly written by Ed like Volo's guides) and find consistency in the setting/characters. That's amazing and harder to do with any other authors unless say Bob Salvatore is writing about Vassa and Damarra like the last 2 sell sword books.
It's reasonable to expect consistency from the creator of the setting himself. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Merrith
Learned Scribe
135 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2011 : 06:32:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Merrith
Agreed Ed's style is much different from everyone else's, which is just one of a number of reasons I love it so much.
He's often very effective in evoking any setting and describing battle scenes, but at times, or should I say recently, his writing looks like a child lost in the woods and wandering aimlessly; [and the unfortunate reader is forced to follow such endless, desultory meandering].
I'll have to disagree with you, as I feel like the two most recent Elminster novels have been two of my favorites yet. If you don't like romps, there's a lot of Ed's stuff you won't enjoy. If you don't like the way he weaves in details of the setting, you might get lost in the masses of nobles, eateries, and tavern names he drops and goes back to occasionally to provide more full detail. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2011 : 06:52:00
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The haphazard meandering is just one the reasons I've become averse to his recent work. The choice of characters and the lack of a thrilling climax [or climaxes] are another. I hardly care for his characters lately, even Elminster is becoming boring...to the point that I wish someone else writes about the Old Mage...
I did enjoy the first four Elminster novels, though. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2011 : 14:27:05
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| I have only read the first 3 Elminster books and i realize in those books he was not the all-powerful mage he is today; but when i read them his character development just felt like a regular guy out adventuring...which i just thought was weird. I love reading about powerful characters like Szass Tam because they are doing things that most characters in other books are incapable of doing; they are not just out dungeon diving for treasure or lore. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2011 : 14:33:49
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
I love reading about powerful characters like Szass Tam because they are doing things that most characters in other books are incapable of doing; they are not just out dungeon diving for treasure or lore.
If you haven't yet read them, I recommend the following trilogies: Paul S. Kemp's The Erevis Cale and The Twilight War; Troy Denning's Return of the Archwizards; Clayton Emery's Arcane Age; and Richard Lee Byers's Year of Rogue Dragons. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 09 Sep 2011 14:38:13 |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2011 : 15:39:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
I love reading about powerful characters like Szass Tam because they are doing things that most characters in other books are incapable of doing; they are not just out dungeon diving for treasure or lore.
If you haven't yet read them, I recommend the following trilogies: Paul S. Kemp's The Erevis Cale and The Twilight War; Troy Denning's Return of the Archwizards; Clayton Emery's Arcane Age; and Richard Lee Byers's Year of Rogue Dragons.
Yep read them all except for Books 2 & 3 of The Twilight War...but i will get to those quickly.  I enjoyed them all too with the notable exception of Arcane Age |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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A Gavel
Seeker
USA
53 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2011 : 18:36:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
He's often very effective in evoking any setting and describing battle scenes, but at times, or should I say recently, his writing looks like a child lost in the woods and wandering aimlessly; [and the unfortunate reader is forced to follow such endless, desultory meandering].
This tells us more about the attention span of this reader than it does about Ed's writing.
There's nothing at all haphazard or meandering about Ed's recent novels.
They're more complex than childrens' fantasy books where a band of heroes crosses an unfamiliar continent to fufill a quest without ever getting lost, or everything "just happens to happen" very neatly, with characters running into each other for fights. More of Ed's characters make mistakes and blunder down side roads than in aforesaid fantasies, but that's just Ed being more realistic. He's far from the best fantasy writer currently active, but he's far, far better than most gamers give him credit for.
If Dennis finds them aimless, Dennis isn't paying attention. |
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Baleful Avatar
Learned Scribe
Canada
161 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2011 : 18:42:28
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Well said.
I attended a symposium on writing at my alma mater recently, and a prof presented a paper at it in which he cited Ed Greenwood's writing as an example of "complex plotting hidden in the background rather than stated baldly in the foreground," which he lamented as an inevitable consequence of "instant Sesame Street-style gratification" among too many younger readers. In short, we want the payoff RIGHT NOW, and even some editors fall into the trap of "not wanting a single word in a book that doesn't advance the plot."
Whereas most memorable books (and haven't we read Ed posting here at the Keep, via THO, about just this, before?) are about CHARACTERS.
Dennis has posted ad nauseum about how much he hates Manshoon, and Ed's last two Elminster novels use Manshoon heavily. I suspect this is behind much of the reaction Dennis has had to them.
Now I'm sure Dennis will hurry to tell me how wrong I am. |
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2011 : 18:47:04
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| entreri3478, you realise that in the first two Elminster books, Elminster's character development was SUPPOSED to be "like a regular guy out adventuring"? As in, the head of the Books Department at TSR then assigned Ed to write just that sort of story? |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2011 : 19:56:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade
entreri3478, you realise that in the first two Elminster books, Elminster's character development was SUPPOSED to be "like a regular guy out adventuring"? As in, the head of the Books Department at TSR then assigned Ed to write just that sort of story?
Yes i realize that...which is why i clearly stated such in my post |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Clad In Shadows
Learned Scribe
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2011 : 22:59:42
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Thanks for the info guys! I'm about a quarter of the way through the final book in Salvatore's Saga Of The First King series, and then I plan on starting Elminster. I also like the fact that I have the annotated version, so I can delve a little deeper into the thought process involved.
FYI, I have read Greenwood's Seven Sisters novel. So I'm not 100% new to his writing. And writing has to be VERY dense or VERY dry for me to not be able to follow along. I think I'll be fine. Though I'll be sure to let you all here know if I'm not.
I'll try and get the Shadow Of The Avatar series, but if I don't, no biggie. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2011 : 23:23:10
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quote:
Originally posted by A Gavel
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
He's often very effective in evoking any setting and describing battle scenes, but at times, or should I say recently, his writing looks like a child lost in the woods and wandering aimlessly; [and the unfortunate reader is forced to follow such endless, desultory meandering].
This tells us more about the attention span of this reader than it does about Ed's writing.
There's nothing at all haphazard or meandering about Ed's recent novels.
They're more complex than childrens' fantasy books where a band of heroes crosses an unfamiliar continent to fufill a quest without ever getting lost, or everything "just happens to happen" very neatly, with characters running into each other for fights. More of Ed's characters make mistakes and blunder down side roads than in aforesaid fantasies, but that's just Ed being more realistic. He's far from the best fantasy writer currently active, but he's far, far better than most gamers give him credit for.
If Dennis finds them aimless, Dennis isn't paying attention.
I love the detail in Ed's novels.
Check out Ed's Dark Warrior Rising, or Dark Vengenace.
Not Realms related but bad *** novels. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2011 : 05:04:36
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quote:
Originally posted by A Gavel
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
He's often very effective in evoking any setting and describing battle scenes, but at times, or should I say recently, his writing looks like a child lost in the woods and wandering aimlessly; [and the unfortunate reader is forced to follow such endless, desultory meandering].
This tells us more about the attention span of this reader than it does about Ed's writing.
There's nothing at all haphazard or meandering about Ed's recent novels.
They're more complex than childrens' fantasy books where a band of heroes crosses an unfamiliar continent to fufill a quest without ever getting lost, or everything "just happens to happen" very neatly, with characters running into each other for fights. More of Ed's characters make mistakes and blunder down side roads than in aforesaid fantasies, but that's just Ed being more realistic. He's far from the best fantasy writer currently active, but he's far, far better than most gamers give him credit for.
If Dennis finds them aimless, Dennis isn't paying attention.
Heh. Attention span my ***. I've read novels far longer than Ed's [e.g. Feist's, Erikson's, Rawn's, Wurts's, Weeks's, Modesitt's, Friedman's], and most I finished in one to three sittings.
But as I mentioned in the not so distant past, I could endure a writing style I don't like if and when the author writes about a character I'm very interested in. If Ed gives Larloch more screen time in the next Elminster book, I would definitely read it, and wouldn't mind seeing too much of the Roach or even "getting lost in the woods." |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2011 : 05:10:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Baleful Avatar
Dennis has posted ad nauseum about how much he hates Manshoon, and Ed's last two Elminster novels use Manshoon heavily. I suspect this is behind much of the reaction Dennis has had to them.
Now I'm sure Dennis will hurry to tell me how wrong I am.
Let's just say I'd be very happy if Ed reveals that Larloch [more out of boredom than considering the Roach's capabilities] has actually made the lovable Roach one of his "disposable" puppet-spies in the Sword Coast. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Elminster Reading Order
