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Artemas Entreri
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USA
3068 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2011 :  17:43:08  Show Profile Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Are evil necromancers generally cooler/more interesting than the good-aligned ones? Maybe the same goes to wizards of all schools of magic?



The evil necromancers definitely got to sit at the cool kids table in elementary school.

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Artemas Entreri
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USA
3068 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2011 :  17:49:13  Show Profile Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Those necromancers in Elder Scolls IV sure were a bunch of bastards ;)

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Ayrik
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Canada
6428 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2011 :  04:26:11  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I suppose, following the assertions argued on the previous page, we could say that since Karsus was a lich then he too must've been a necromancer.

[/Ayrik]
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Dennis
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Posted - 27 Sep 2011 :  06:28:06  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Where was it mentioned that Karsus was a lich?

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Ayrik
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Canada
6428 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2011 :  07:27:44  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I believe Netheril offhandedly mentioned that Karsus "reverted to Lichdom to prolongue his life [once Ioulaum's Longevity and other life-sustaining magics began to fail]" - twice - once in the section about Heavy Magic, I cannot recall the specific place of the other mention.

[/Ayrik]
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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2011 :  14:32:16  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

I believe Netheril offhandedly mentioned that Karsus "reverted to Lichdom to prolongue his life [once Ioulaum's Longevity and other life-sustaining magics began to fail]" - twice - once in the section about Heavy Magic, I cannot recall the specific place of the other mention.

Funny that I didn't notice it before... But yes, it's there.

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Dennis
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Posted - 27 Sep 2011 :  14:33:19  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Does the lack of votes to Diablo necromancers mean no one here likes the setting, nor reads any Diablo novels?

Szass Tam having the most votes is no surprise.

---------

Is there a lich who has a sense of humor?

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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader

USA
3068 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2011 :  14:40:12  Show Profile Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Does the lack of votes to Diablo necromancers mean no one here likes the setting, nor reads any Diablo novels?

Szass Tam having the most votes is no surprise.

---------

Is there a lich who has a sense of humor?



Considering what he did to Nevron, I would say that Szass Tam definitely has a sense of humor.

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Dennis
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Posted - 27 Sep 2011 :  14:53:58  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Maybe. But in the Zulkirate, only Lallara [obviously] had. Though hers was usually the twisted kind, and often at the cost of some poor, fat man.

Every beginning has an end.

Edited by - Dennis on 27 Sep 2011 14:55:11
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6094 Posts

Posted - 30 Sep 2011 :  19:30:02  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

All the staple necromancy spells, of course; animate dead, vampiric touch, enervation, that sort of stuff. Not the greatest in terms of level and power, although I think the greatest in scope and impact.

My players and I have long agreed that necromancer spells basically suck until around 3rd level, then past about 5th-6th level they're okay but hardly comparable to what the other schools offer. Assuming the necromancer uses "stock" spells instead of inventing his own, of course. Dark cleric types are generally much more versatile in terms of spell lists; plus they're also tougher opponents to kill and can heal themselves ... in short, Necromancers are really not a great choice if you're looking for power. As implemented in D&D, at least.




That reminds me. In SOME resource, I know there was a first level necromancy spell that all it did was allow you to animate a single skeleton. I actually found that spell useful and believable for a necromancer. Granted, said skeleton usually didn't last long, but it was typically better than having a single magic missile blast or a shocking grasp. Or it could at least absorb a single blow that might have been meant for someone else. Of course, in an area effect, it was fodder. But for the beginner mage, not a bad little spell.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6094 Posts

Posted - 30 Sep 2011 :  19:43:30  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

There is nothing that keeps a generalist wizard from casting necromantic spells. And there's nothing that keeps a necromancer from casting regular spells. The difference is that the necromancer focuses so much on necromatic spells that he's actually weaker in non-necromantic areas. If I read about Vecna raising armies of undead, I'd agree that he was likely a necromancer. Slapping his name on a book and doing nothing else noticably focused on the dead is less than convincing.



And if you're a generalist wizard who multi-classes as dread necromancer, then takes levels of ultimate magus, then becomes a priest of Myrkul, then takes levels as a true necromancer (putting some of those arcane into wizard and some into dread necro)..... you may not be a "necromancy specialist" but you're a necromancer in my book. Just something that had been puttering around in my brain.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31690 Posts

Posted - 01 Oct 2011 :  03:03:36  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478

Those necromancers in Elder Scolls IV sure were a bunch of bastards ;)

I thought they were kind of weak, actually. I was a little disappointed that such a cool concept wasn't more appropriately applied as a greater threat to your character in the game.

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Alystra Illianniis
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USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 05 Oct 2011 :  01:06:03  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Weak? those guys were kicking my dunmer butt a couple of days ago!! (I just bought a new 360 a few weeks ago, and delved back into my favorite RPG console game again. I'm currently at lvl 20 as a custome bladesinger dark elf- no surprise to those here who know me well- and my last fight with just three necros sent me packing.... But I'm over it. :) )

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
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Australia
31690 Posts

Posted - 05 Oct 2011 :  01:31:08  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

Weak? those guys were kicking my dunmer butt a couple of days ago!! (I just bought a new 360 a few weeks ago, and delved back into my favorite RPG console game again. I'm currently at lvl 20 as a custome bladesinger dark elf- no surprise to those here who know me well- and my last fight with just three necros sent me packing.... But I'm over it. :) )

Ah, that's probably it then. I've been told that the console versions of Oblivion were somewhat more "trying" when compared to the PC version, which is the format I'm most familiar with for this game. Perhaps the necromancers in the console games were entirely more difficult to best.

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Alystra Illianniis
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USA
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Posted - 05 Oct 2011 :  01:44:12  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'll say! Then again, my class is not "optimized" for fighting magic-users or anything else in particular. It's just fun to play- and based on my bard in D&D.

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188

Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
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The Sage
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Australia
31690 Posts

Posted - 05 Oct 2011 :  02:15:33  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You've managed a bard-like build for your PC in Oblivion?

Interesting.

Can you provide some details on the custom build, as it sounds like something I'd like to try out?

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Nilus Reynard
Learned Scribe

Canada
107 Posts

Posted - 05 Oct 2011 :  12:53:10  Show Profile Send Nilus Reynard a Private Message  Reply with Quote
With the choices provided, I had to go with Szass Tam.

Nilus Reynard
Doom Master of Beshaba, Hand of Despair.
P21 Hm CN
(2nd Edition AD&D)
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 07 Oct 2011 :  00:52:13  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

You've managed a bard-like build for your PC in Oblivion?

Interesting.

Can you provide some details on the custom build, as it sounds like something I'd like to try out?




There was already a bard-type class in Oblivion (and Morrowwind before that), but mine is more like the Bladesinger PrC. I recall using agility, personality, and intell as my prime stats, combat as my main focus, and used blade, illusion, light armor, alteration, speechcraft, mercantile, and (I think) alchemy as the main skills. Not completely certain on that last one- it might have been acrobatics or athletis. My birthsign was the Thief, I believe. And I went with Dunmer(dark elf) for three reasons- A. the fire resistance and generally decent magic ability (I ignore Ancestor Gaurdian because at 1/day, it's nearly pointless IMO) help A LOT(especially since pretty much most NPC's in Oblivion use fire in some way), B. I LOVE dark elves anyway, and C. They have less of a draw-back than most of the other races in terms of abilities. (although the Argonian's abilities are swwet, too, as are the Khajit's.) Don't like the High Elf's weakness to magic, and most of the others have abilities that either don't serve much purpose at higher levels, or are too focused on one thing. (Beast Tongue and Voice of Emporer come to mind....)

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188

Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31690 Posts

Posted - 07 Oct 2011 :  01:39:19  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

You've managed a bard-like build for your PC in Oblivion?

Interesting.

Can you provide some details on the custom build, as it sounds like something I'd like to try out?




There was already a bard-type class in Oblivion (and Morrowwind before that), but mine is more like the Bladesinger PrC.
Ah. It's been so long since I've created a new character, that I forgot about the Bard class in Oblivion.
quote:
I recall using agility, personality, and intell as my prime stats, combat as my main focus, and used blade, illusion, light armor, alteration, speechcraft, mercantile, and (I think) alchemy as the main skills. Not completely certain on that last one- it might have been acrobatics or athletis. My birthsign was the Thief, I believe. And I went with Dunmer(dark elf) for three reasons- A. the fire resistance and generally decent magic ability (I ignore Ancestor Gaurdian because at 1/day, it's nearly pointless IMO) help A LOT(especially since pretty much most NPC's in Oblivion use fire in some way), B. I LOVE dark elves anyway, and C. They have less of a draw-back than most of the other races in terms of abilities. (although the Argonian's abilities are swwet, too, as are the Khajit's.) Don't like the High Elf's weakness to magic, and most of the others have abilities that either don't serve much purpose at higher levels, or are too focused on one thing. (Beast Tongue and Voice of Emporer come to mind....)

Neat. I'm going to borrow this, and try it out for myself.

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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Alystra Illianniis
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USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 07 Oct 2011 :  01:45:26  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Enjoy! It can be a little weak in the magic area, since I only used two magic skills as my mains, but otherwise, it's good. And I remember now, it was sneak, not alchemy. I think I also took security in place of mercantile, but either would work.

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188

Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 07 Oct 2011 :  02:39:06  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Does anyone like Akhlaur? I find his background story quite interesting. But of course, that's something expected from any characters of Elaine.

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jordanz
Senior Scribe

509 Posts

Posted - 07 Oct 2011 :  06:43:22  Show Profile  Visit jordanz's Homepage Send jordanz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Based on that classic battle in the Unholy book, one could argue that Szass Tam is as much as generalist s Vecna. I can't recall one necromatic spell used when he took on the Zulkirs in that last fight.
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Ayrik
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Canada
6428 Posts

Posted - 07 Oct 2011 :  07:36:27  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Conversely: Maligor, Zulkir of Alteration (until 1362DR), developed a spell, then an army, of darkenbeasts. The magic might technically be transmutation, but the effect is most decidedly necromantic. Perhaps he picked up a few levels of necromancer, much as Mythrellan acquired some levels as a shadowmage? I wouldn't be surprised if all the Zulkirs had a few multiclassed levels in other magics, hidden abilities kept secret from all other Red Wizards to be used as a secret weapon, defense, escape, counter, or versatility when absolutely needed. Even a single level in another magic class would allow access to an array of spells and items which were previously forbidden.

I still maintain that Szass Tam is in fact a (non-specialized) mage whose affinity for necromancy results from his being lichy, as described in the oldest Realmslore; he basically gains all the bonuses of a specialist without the drawbacks. Larloch, too, I suspect is a non-specialist who gains free necromancy - plus imagine how much extra necromancy he might gain from all his lich servitors. Perhaps the same even holds true for Vecna, although his divine immortality (and artifact status) effectively means that he is not necessarily constained by the same rules which apply to puny little mortal mages, so it's really impossible to say. I'm inclined to treat all three as unrestricted necromancers, insofar as needed for gaming purposes.

I think DMGR7: Complete Book of Necromancers offers the best definition: a necromancer (even in games/settings where no necromancer subclass exists) can be any mage who simply selects the majority of his spells and magic from the same lists which would be used by a necromancer. Kinda difficult to convincingly claim otherwise when 70% of your spell list involves death magics and such stuff, eh? Specialization is not required to cast the same spells just as proficiently as a specialist, and after a point it actually becomes more of a hindrance than a benefit because the bonuses become comparatively minor while the limitations remain quite significant.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 07 Oct 2011 07:51:26
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6094 Posts

Posted - 07 Oct 2011 :  15:15:44  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Conversely: Maligor, Zulkir of Alteration (until 1362DR), developed a spell, then an army, of darkenbeasts. The magic might technically be transmutation, but the effect is most decidedly necromantic. Perhaps he picked up a few levels of necromancer, much as Mythrellan acquired some levels as a shadowmage? I wouldn't be surprised if all the Zulkirs had a few multiclassed levels in other magics, hidden abilities kept secret from all other Red Wizards to be used as a secret weapon, defense, escape, counter, or versatility when absolutely needed. Even a single level in another magic class would allow access to an array of spells and items which were previously forbidden.

I still maintain that Szass Tam is in fact a (non-specialized) mage whose affinity for necromancy results from his being lichy, as described in the oldest Realmslore; he basically gains all the bonuses of a specialist without the drawbacks. Larloch, too, I suspect is a non-specialist who gains free necromancy - plus imagine how much extra necromancy he might gain from all his lich servitors. Perhaps the same even holds true for Vecna, although his divine immortality (and artifact status) effectively means that he is not necessarily constained by the same rules which apply to puny little mortal mages, so it's really impossible to say. I'm inclined to treat all three as unrestricted necromancers, insofar as needed for gaming purposes.

I think DMGR7: Complete Book of Necromancers offers the best definition: a necromancer (even in games/settings where no necromancer subclass exists) can be any mage who simply selects the majority of his spells and magic from the same lists which would be used by a necromancer. Kinda difficult to convincingly claim otherwise when 70% of your spell list involves death magics and such stuff, eh? Specialization is not required to cast the same spells just as proficiently as a specialist, and after a point it actually becomes more of a hindrance than a benefit because the bonuses become comparatively minor while the limitations remain quite significant.



As pertains to Tam in particular, the main question in my mind is has he ever cast any illusions or enchantments personally that we know of? There was a specific short story that dwelt on the fact he specifically couldn't cast illusions, and I don't recall him ever using any enchantments. Now, what his third class was (being a red wizard after all), that I'd be hard put to declare as I bet I've seen him in novels use invocation, conjuration, divination, transmutation, and of course necromancy. I'd be pretty convinced that he had to take the feats to recover his spell casting in the third school, except noone ever shows him doing it in their builds of him.
However, after reading the pathfinder rules, I'm definitely applying them to my games for the future with regards to school specialization.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 07 Oct 2011 :  15:27:00  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz

Based on that classic battle in the Unholy book, one could argue that Szass Tam is as much as generalist s Vecna. I can't recall one necromatic spell used when he took on the Zulkirs in that last fight.

In fact, it was mentioned in Undead, which I'm currently re-reading, that Szass Tam is a master of all disciplines. Here are Dmitra Flass's words:

quote:

"You're right," [Dmitra] said, "that should suffice, but you don't know Szass Tam like I do. He's a genius, and a master of every school of wizardry. So can we really hide whole armies from him, or was that Rashemi griffon rider correct? Is this a feck­less plan?"


And given that no zulkir would dare fight him in a one on one battle, I say the other zulkirs would agree with Dmitra's estimation of the lich's power.

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