Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Forgotten Realms Journals
 General Forgotten Realms Chat
 Your Favorite Male Necromancer (In All Settings)
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Previous Page | Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 8

Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 10 Sep 2011 :  04:39:21  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

It's not the POWER of the necro, it's all their darn PETS that makes them so nasty!! I mean, why worry about that pesky adventuring group trying to kill you when you can just keep raising wave after wave of skellies and zombies to whittle them down? Tsk, Ayrik, you underestimate them....

Indeed. In the novel Nagash the Sorcerer by Mike Lee, one of the factors that brought Nagash and his lieutenants victory is their seemingly endless supply of raise the dead spell. Dead enemies and allies alike are brought back to "life" to fight for them. Even the high priests from the enemy camp had difficulty countering the wave after wave of undead. Plus, most necromancers are also masters of other schools of magic, like abjuration and evocation.

Every beginning has an end.

Edited by - Dennis on 14 Sep 2011 04:56:48
Go to Top of Page

Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore

1221 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2011 :  14:38:56  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Asmodeus's Homepage Send Chosen of Asmodeus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

I'm thinking most people are confusing "favourite" with "most powerful".


A lot of people use that as their criteria for favorite.


As I do, most of the time. My primary criterion, though, is how well he's represented in fiction.



While I'd be lying if I said it wasn't something I took into consideration (I can't stand completely ineffectual characters), it's fairly low on my list compared to moral complexity and depth.

"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress

Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.

The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY
Go to Top of Page

Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2011 :  14:52:05  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

I'm thinking most people are confusing "favourite" with "most powerful".


A lot of people use that as their criteria for favorite.


As I do, most of the time. My primary criterion, though, is how well he's represented in fiction.

While I'd be lying if I said it wasn't something I took into consideration (I can't stand completely ineffectual characters), it's fairly low on my list compared to moral complexity and depth.

Some low level characters accomplished great feats [sometimes recorded in history, sometimes forgotten as the realms they hailed from], succeeded admirably where the powerful ones failed. So again, depth matters most.

Every beginning has an end.
Go to Top of Page

Artemas Entreri
Great Reader

USA
3068 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2011 :  14:53:22  Show Profile Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

I'm thinking most people are confusing "favourite" with "most powerful".


A lot of people use that as their criteria for favorite.


As I do, most of the time. My primary criterion, though, is how well he's represented in fiction.

While I'd be lying if I said it wasn't something I took into consideration (I can't stand completely ineffectual characters), it's fairly low on my list compared to moral complexity and depth.

Some low level characters accomplished great feats [sometimes recorded in history, sometimes forgotten as the realms they hailed from], succeeded admirably where the powerful ones failed. So again, depth matters most.



Thats what she said

Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin

Be my friend on Goodreads.com: http://www.goodreads.com/user/show/6751111-brian
Go to Top of Page

Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2011 :  15:01:59  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478

That's what she said.

Yes. I simply elucidated it further. And oh! CoA is male.

Every beginning has an end.
Go to Top of Page

Artemas Entreri
Great Reader

USA
3068 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2011 :  15:23:26  Show Profile Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Now that "Don't Ask Don't Tell" is officially over, this quote applies to "she said" and "he said" ;)

Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin

Be my friend on Goodreads.com: http://www.goodreads.com/user/show/6751111-brian
Go to Top of Page

Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 23 Sep 2011 :  01:13:34  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You guys are SICK!!!

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188

Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u
Go to Top of Page

Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 23 Sep 2011 :  01:53:50  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Are evil necromancers generally cooler/more interesting than the good-aligned ones? Maybe the same goes to wizards of all schools of magic?

Every beginning has an end.

Edited by - Dennis on 23 Sep 2011 01:56:39
Go to Top of Page

jordanz
Senior Scribe

509 Posts

Posted - 23 Sep 2011 :  03:13:31  Show Profile  Visit jordanz's Homepage Send jordanz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wow no mention of Vecna or his underling Acererak?

Vecna was born as a human, centuries ago as a member of the untouchable caste in the Flan city of Fleeth on Oerth. He was initially trained by his mother, Mazzel, in the art of magic, before she was executed by the government of Fleeth for practicing witchcraft. Vowing revenge, Vecna eventually assumed a mastery of the dark arts achieved by no mortal before or since. Some say this achievement was due to direct tutelage by Mok'slyk the Serpent, believed to be the personification of arcane magic itself.

Nearly one thousand years after his birth, Vecna, now a lich and ruler of a great and terrible empire (in the Sheldomar Valley, centered near the modern-day Rushmoors), laid siege to the city of Fleeth with an army of arcane spellcasters and undead. Legend has it that Vecna was nearly slain in this battle by clerics channeling the power of Pholtus, the god of light. The clerics unleashed a great burst of light, which hit Vecna primarily on his left side. Vecna was rescued and brought to safety by one of his wizard generals, a cambion named Acererak (who would one day himself become a mighty demilich).

Vecna eventually recovered. On the verge of conquering Fleeth, the officials of the city came before him to beg for mercy. They offered up the entire city and her wealth if only Vecna would spare the lives of her citizens. When Vecna was not satisfied, the officials offered their own lives. Vecna gave one of their number, Artau, and his family, over to his lieutenant, Kas, who spent the entire day torturing and murdering them before the other officials. Still unsatisfied, Vecna slaughtered all within the city, and had their heads stacked before the officials, with those of their family members prominent. Vecna then granted his mercy, granting the officials leave to depart, and promising them his protection for the rest of their lives.

At his empire's height, Vecna was betrayed and destroyed by his most trusted lieutenant, a vampire called Kas the Bloody-Handed, using a magical sword that Vecna himself had crafted for him, now known as the Sword of Kas. Only his left hand and his eye survived the battle, perhaps because of the previous events in Fleeth.

Vecna did not stay gone forever, and rose as a demigod of magic and secrets in the world of Greyhawk. In 581 CY, his cult helped set events in motion that would have granted him the power of a greater god, but the plan was ultimately foiled. After these events, Vecna ended up imprisoned in the demiplane of Ravenloft, but broke free again later, emerging with the power of a greater god, after absorbing the power of Iuz. He then broke free into the city of Sigil, where he came perilously close to rearranging all existence to his whims. (Vecna's multiverse shattering campaign in Sigil is used as an in-universe way to explain the differences between the 2nd and 3rd editions of Dungeons & Dragons.[citation needed]). When Vecna was ejected from Sigil by a party of adventurers, Iuz was freed and Vecna returned to Oerth greatly reduced in power, though still a lesser god.

In the events of the Living Greyhawk campaign setting, Vecna's machinations allowed him to reappear on the prime material plane and retake his place in the Oerth pantheon.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vecna
Go to Top of Page

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6428 Posts

Posted - 23 Sep 2011 :  03:31:31  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmm. I could name a handful of evil necros off the top of my head. Can't really think of any good-aligned ones worth remembering.

[/Ayrik]
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30338 Posts

Posted - 23 Sep 2011 :  03:39:42  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Still don't see anything saying he's a necromancer. Being a master of dark arts and being undead implies necromancy, but there are other dark arts, and having a necro inclination isn't a requirement for becoming undead.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

jordanz
Senior Scribe

509 Posts

Posted - 23 Sep 2011 :  04:46:02  Show Profile  Visit jordanz's Homepage Send jordanz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Still don't see anything saying he's a necromancer. Being a master of dark arts and being undead implies necromancy, but there are other dark arts, and having a necro inclination isn't a requirement for becoming undead.





At some point in his history, Vecna penned a tome known as Ordinary Necromancy. He is also rumored to have made significant additions to the Book of Vile Darkness.
Go to Top of Page

Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 23 Sep 2011 :  05:29:06  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Hmmm. I could name a handful of evil necros off the top of my head. Can't really think of any good-aligned ones worth remembering.

In the Realms, there are hardly any goodly necromancers, which makes sense since necromancy is a dark art and is almost always associated with evil. But in other settings, there are quite a lot. Though sometimes, they should have been called spirit-summoners.

Every beginning has an end.
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30338 Posts

Posted - 23 Sep 2011 :  05:29:54  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Still don't see anything saying he's a necromancer. Being a master of dark arts and being undead implies necromancy, but there are other dark arts, and having a necro inclination isn't a requirement for becoming undead.



At some point in his history, Vecna penned a tome known as Ordinary Necromancy. He is also rumored to have made significant additions to the Book of Vile Darkness.



Not trying to be difficult, but I'm still not seeing where this makes him a necromancer. So he wrote a book about necromancy... Could have just been observations, or recordings of spells known to necromancers, or even an in-depth study of undead critters. I could write a book about flowers, but it wouldn't make me a florist, especially if I just compiled other people's stuff.

And again, dark arts and vile darkness include a lot more than just necromancy.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31690 Posts

Posted - 23 Sep 2011 :  06:05:31  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Still don't see anything saying he's a necromancer. Being a master of dark arts and being undead implies necromancy, but there are other dark arts, and having a necro inclination isn't a requirement for becoming undead.





At some point in his history, Vecna penned a tome known as Ordinary Necromancy. He is also rumored to have made significant additions to the Book of Vile Darkness.

I don't recall him being directly referenced as a necromancer, but his interest in such subjects may have resulted in Vecna becoming something of an "armchair necromancer"... for lack of a more appropriate term.

Not a necromancer in the true and practising sense of the word, but a "necromancer" by association given his somewhat more perverse interests in the manipulation of the force of undeath.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
Go to Top of Page

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6428 Posts

Posted - 23 Sep 2011 :  06:38:13  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would think that necromancers didn't really exist as a proper class back in Vecna's (1E) glory days [outside of the "necromancer" class attempts in D&D magazines] ... one had to make do with nicely evil dark bastard cleric sorts, and they generally managed to be really good at being really evil.

By the time necromancers were properly defined (in 2E), Vecna (along with the Greyhawk setting in general) were already fading into obsolescence under relentless tides of Realmslore. Subsequent attempts to reinvent Greyhawk in later editions seemed to receive mediocre reception at best, Vecna was promoted to godhood and descriptions of his history typically refer to him only as an archmage. Only Gygax would've had more precise information.

Though yeah, retconning Vecna into a necromancer seems quite fitting ... yet, it was never actually done in canon (that I know of). Consider also that Larloch (a purely 2E-3E invention, apparently also somewhat close to godhood) is noted for discovering much necromantic lore and publishing several monumental and revolutionary theses about/involving necromancy ... and yet he also was never categorically branded as a necromancer, his past class was "archwizard".

Vecna's artifacts, at least as originally defined in the 1E DMG, then evolved from 2E onwards, exhibit a wide array of magical effects and powers which include a good number of non-necromantic magics; in fact, these include a number of magics which strictly oppose the school of necromancy under 2E rules and would thus be impossible for normal necromancers to ever learn.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 23 Sep 2011 06:46:11
Go to Top of Page

Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 23 Sep 2011 :  08:44:10  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

During his lichdom, before his ascension, was he a "generalist" lich like Larloch, experimenting all forms of magic, or were most or all his undertakings had to do with undeath?

Every beginning has an end.
Go to Top of Page

jordanz
Senior Scribe

509 Posts

Posted - 24 Sep 2011 :  04:16:29  Show Profile  Visit jordanz's Homepage Send jordanz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think the question should be "Is practicing general Wizardry mutually exclusive from practicing Necromancy? Perhaps Vecna practiced both. But there is a lot of strong circumstantial evidence that he had no small expertise in necromancy.

The creation and use of powerful undead underlings and writing a book about necromancy is enough for me. Having an underling who was the prime antagonist in "Tomb of Horrors", an Arch Demilich himself... But I see some of your points Wooly , he still might not have been. Either way I still love the guy, quite the evil and mysterious badass.
Go to Top of Page

Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2011 :  23:19:51  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Hmm. I didn't know he was NOT a necromancer. I thought being a god of undeath, he's a necromancer by default. Then again, my mistake. I often associate undeath with necromancy. But isn't it the case at first. Dabbling with magic relating to undeath, one has to be a necromancer. From there, he could explore other forms/schools of magic. While he's still practicing necromancy, he can now be called a generalist for practicing other forms of the Art. So it's possible that at first, or sometime in his rather long existence, he had been a Neromancer.

Every beginning has an end.
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30338 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2011 :  04:41:08  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There is nothing that keeps a generalist wizard from casting necromantic spells. And there's nothing that keeps a necromancer from casting regular spells. The difference is that the necromancer focuses so much on necromatic spells that he's actually weaker in non-necromantic areas. If I read about Vecna raising armies of undead, I'd agree that he was likely a necromancer. Slapping his name on a book and doing nothing else noticably focused on the dead is less than convincing.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

jordanz
Senior Scribe

509 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2011 :  04:54:16  Show Profile  Visit jordanz's Homepage Send jordanz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

There is nothing that keeps a generalist wizard from casting necromantic spells. And there's nothing that keeps a necromancer from casting regular spells. The difference is that the necromancer focuses so much on necromatic spells that he's actually weaker in non-necromantic areas. If I read about Vecna raising armies of undead, I'd agree that he was likely a necromancer. Slapping his name on a book and doing nothing else noticably focused on the dead is less than convincing.




"...Nearly one thousand years after his birth, Vecna, now a lich and ruler of a great and terrible empire (in the Sheldomar Valley, centered near the modern-day Rushmoors), laid siege to the city of Fleeth with an army of arcane spellcasters and undead"

Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30338 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2011 :  05:07:01  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

There is nothing that keeps a generalist wizard from casting necromantic spells. And there's nothing that keeps a necromancer from casting regular spells. The difference is that the necromancer focuses so much on necromatic spells that he's actually weaker in non-necromantic areas. If I read about Vecna raising armies of undead, I'd agree that he was likely a necromancer. Slapping his name on a book and doing nothing else noticably focused on the dead is less than convincing.




"...Nearly one thousand years after his birth, Vecna, now a lich and ruler of a great and terrible empire (in the Sheldomar Valley, centered near the modern-day Rushmoors), laid siege to the city of Fleeth with an army of arcane spellcasters and undead"





That's a lot more telling, though an army of arcane spellslingers could raise an undead army a lot more effectively than a single lich can.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2011 :  05:46:31  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

There is nothing that keeps a generalist wizard from casting necromantic spells. And there's nothing that keeps a necromancer from casting regular spells. The difference is that the necromancer focuses so much on necromatic spells that he's actually weaker in non-necromantic areas. If I read about Vecna raising armies of undead, I'd agree that he was likely a necromancer. Slapping his name on a book and doing nothing else noticably focused on the dead is less than convincing.

One of my points exactly, which appears like I haven't made clear. It's just a possibility: that Vecna at first focused on necromantic spells that he was way weaker in other fields, realized the shortcomings of said discipline, and eventually endeavored to become a generalist.

Every beginning has an end.
Go to Top of Page

Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2011 :  05:48:31  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

There is nothing that keeps a generalist wizard from casting necromantic spells. And there's nothing that keeps a necromancer from casting regular spells. The difference is that the necromancer focuses so much on necromatic spells that he's actually weaker in non-necromantic areas. If I read about Vecna raising armies of undead, I'd agree that he was likely a necromancer. Slapping his name on a book and doing nothing else noticably focused on the dead is less than convincing.


"...Nearly one thousand years after his birth, Vecna, now a lich and ruler of a great and terrible empire (in the Sheldomar Valley, centered near the modern-day Rushmoors), laid siege to the city of Fleeth with an army of arcane spellcasters and undead"

Not being difficult, but if it comes down to it, even Larloch can [and mayhap prefers to] send an army of undead to fight for him. And we all know he's not a necromancer.

Every beginning has an end.

Edited by - Dennis on 26 Sep 2011 05:59:09
Go to Top of Page

Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
2907 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2011 :  05:58:56  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I had to vote Sammaster.

He created one of my favorite groups in the Realms, and created the way to turn Dragons into Liches to achive his vision of a Realms ruled by dead dragons.

He is a "Fallen Chosen also..."

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 8 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Previous Page | Next Page
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2017 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000