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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30338 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2011 :  21:52:00  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Same thing as Larloch: people assume powerful undead characters are all Necromancers.

But is Strahd even a mage?



Yup, he's a spellslinger.

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Penknight
Senior Scribe

USA
536 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2011 :  22:25:11  Show Profile Send Penknight a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Same thing as Larloch: people assume powerful undead characters are all Necromancers.

But is Strahd even a mage?



I've followed Ravenloft a long while. Ever since I was given the Black Box, as a matter of fact, back in 1999. As of the Gazeteer Volume I from White Wolf (3E Ravenloft), he's been a Ftr 4/Necromancer 16. A great character that has given me many great memories and stories as a DM and player both. By the way, getting to play a member of the Von Zarovich family with all the gifts and curses of that bloodline can make for a wonderful character concept if you have the proper sourcebook of the families of Ravenloft.

I tend to run a Ravenloft campaign around fall and special occasions, and will be gearing up for it soon. Which means it's time to dust off my sourcebooks and beginning plotting. Ah, the Land of Mists...

Telethian Phoenix
Pathfinder Reference Document
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6428 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2011 :  22:35:16  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I learn something new every day.

Clearly my group has been away from Ravenloft for too long. They hate being stuck there.

[/Ayrik]
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Penknight
Senior Scribe

USA
536 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2011 :  00:44:21  Show Profile Send Penknight a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

I learn something new every day.

Clearly my group has been away from Ravenloft for too long. They hate being stuck there.



Glad I could be of some help to you, my friend. And many thanks to you for your thoughts on my golden mithril in the other scroll, also.

The campaign I run in the Land of Mists is a Natives campaign. I never was a big fan of playing an Outlander, really, or bringing them in. I use them, yes. But not as PCs. I prefer the manner of using them like Gennifer and Laurie Weathermay-Foxgrove encountered them, actually. Makes for a better tale, I feel.

Telethian Phoenix
Pathfinder Reference Document
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2011 :  02:27:10  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Although I didn't vote him despite my strong partiality to Netherese, I still thought Aumvor would have the most votes, given his accomplishments and reputation. I guess most people are disgusted by his looks, which seems worse than being a smelly walking bag of bones.

Every beginning has an end.
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6428 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2011 :  02:50:15  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm thinking most people are confusing "favourite" with "most powerful".

[/Ayrik]
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31690 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2011 :  03:09:16  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Although I didn't vote him despite my strong partiality to Netherese, I still thought Aumvor would have the most votes, given his accomplishments and reputation. I guess most people are disgusted by his looks, which seems worse than being a smelly walking bag of bones.

My interest in Aumvor was approaching near-legendary status on the Wizards boards... before all the Gleemax forum rearrangements began impacting on the amount of time I chose to spend over there.

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
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Posted - 03 Sep 2011 :  03:15:09  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Penknight

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Same thing as Larloch: people assume powerful undead characters are all Necromancers.

But is Strahd even a mage?



I've followed Ravenloft a long while. Ever since I was given the Black Box, as a matter of fact, back in 1999. As of the Gazeteer Volume I from White Wolf (3E Ravenloft), he's been a Ftr 4/Necromancer 16. A great character that has given me many great memories and stories as a DM and player both. By the way, getting to play a member of the Von Zarovich family with all the gifts and curses of that bloodline can make for a wonderful character concept if you have the proper sourcebook of the families of Ravenloft.
Actually, Strahd's stats as a Ftr4/Nec16 were set from the original 3e Secrets of the Dread Realms supplement, and used almost consistently throughout the entire published line of White Wolf products for the RAVENLOFT setting.

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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage

Edited by - The Sage on 03 Sep 2011 03:15:53
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6428 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2011 :  03:32:03  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have no 2E stats for Strahd on record - was he originally just classed as a "Vampire"? I recall his appearance in the 2E Ravenloft setting (and even earlier 1E appearance in the epynomous I6: Ravenloft module) didn't really stat him up, plus they predate Van Richten's Guide to Vampires where the first canon rules (that I know of) allowed individual vampires to possess classes and special abilities. I read I, Strahd 16 years ago and can't recall much about the book except that I didn't like it, yet I don't think it mentioned Strahd practicing any magic which couldn't be explained as powers granted by vampirism and the land itself ... perhaps I read key details incorrectly or simply forgot them.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 03 Sep 2011 03:34:11
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Penknight
Senior Scribe

USA
536 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2011 :  04:35:48  Show Profile Send Penknight a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

quote:
Originally posted by Penknight

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Same thing as Larloch: people assume powerful undead characters are all Necromancers.

But is Strahd even a mage?



I've followed Ravenloft a long while. Ever since I was given the Black Box, as a matter of fact, back in 1999. As of the Gazeteer Volume I from White Wolf (3E Ravenloft), he's been a Ftr 4/Necromancer 16. A great character that has given me many great memories and stories as a DM and player both. By the way, getting to play a member of the Von Zarovich family with all the gifts and curses of that bloodline can make for a wonderful character concept if you have the proper sourcebook of the families of Ravenloft.
Actually, Strahd's stats as a Ftr4/Nec16 were set from the original 3e Secrets of the Dread Realms supplement, and used almost consistently throughout the entire published line of White Wolf products for the RAVENLOFT setting.



That is true. However, I believe that the Gazeteer came out later, and was the most up to date (though granted, not much changed). That's why I stated it as "as of". And Sage, I'm curious what you thought of Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. I wasn't all that big a fan of it personally, and prefer to run I6 if I am going that route. What were your views on it?

Telethian Phoenix
Pathfinder Reference Document

Edited by - Penknight on 03 Sep 2011 04:36:20
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31690 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2011 :  04:50:43  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

I have no 2E stats for Strahd on record - was he originally just classed as a "Vampire"? I recall his appearance in the 2E Ravenloft setting (and even earlier 1E appearance in the epynomous I6: Ravenloft module) didn't really stat him up, plus they predate Van Richten's Guide to Vampires where the first canon rules (that I know of) allowed individual vampires to possess classes and special abilities. I read I, Strahd 16 years ago and can't recall much about the book except that I didn't like it, yet I don't think it mentioned Strahd practicing any magic which couldn't be explained as powers granted by vampirism and the land itself ... perhaps I read key details incorrectly or simply forgot them.

Strahd was listed as an ancient vampire and 16th-level necromancer in the 2e Domains of Dread campaign setting. It's pretty much how he appeared throughout the rest of the material published for 2e RL as well.

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31690 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2011 :  05:12:46  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Penknight

And Sage, I'm curious what you thought of Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. I wasn't all that big a fan of it personally, and prefer to run I6 if I am going that route. What were your views on it?

Actually, and sadly, I was never able to obtain a copy when it was initially released here. It sold out rather quickly, and there was never an opportunity for second shipments.

So it's currently sitting on my "To-Purchase" list for when I next make an order at nobleknight.com.

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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2011 :  05:43:40  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Although I didn't vote him despite my strong partiality to Netherese, I still thought Aumvor would have the most votes, given his accomplishments and reputation. I guess most people are disgusted by his looks, which seems worse than being a smelly walking bag of bones.

My interest in Aumvor was approaching near-legendary status on the Wizards boards... before all the Gleemax forum rearrangements began impacting on the amount of time I chose to spend over there.


He is a genius and so great that two his most powerful spells were named after him. And if I'm not mistaken, he's the uber-lich who's got the most number of phylacteries. [And in the history of fantasy, I think he's the only obese lich.]

Every beginning has an end.
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore

1221 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2011 :  22:32:13  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Asmodeus's Homepage Send Chosen of Asmodeus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

I'm thinking most people are confusing "favourite" with "most powerful".



A lot of people use that as their criteria for favorite.

"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress

Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.

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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2011 :  04:57:25  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

I'm thinking most people are confusing "favourite" with "most powerful".


A lot of people use that as their criteria for favorite.


As I do, most of the time. My primary criterion, though, is how well he's represented in fiction.

Every beginning has an end.
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 07 Sep 2011 :  16:13:36  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

I think Shradin Mulophor deserves an honorable mention. It took the combined powers of the Skulls of Skullport to rid of him.

Every beginning has an end.

Edited by - Dennis on 07 Sep 2011 16:14:19
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 09 Sep 2011 :  00:50:43  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Regarding Strahd- yes, he is indeed a necromancer, at least if one looks at the number of necromancy spells he created, as per the 2nd ed Wizards' Spell Compendium collection. At least two of the volumes contain spells of his own devising, including Strahd's Malefic Meld, which is a rather fun and nasty spell to join two or more creatures together into one new creature. He is mentioned as using a blue dragon and beholder on more than one occasion as parts of the meld! (Apparently he's rather fond of that spell...)

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

My stories:
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Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6428 Posts

Posted - 09 Sep 2011 :  01:38:09  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A blueholder? A scaly blue orb with dragon horns, wings, claws, lightning breath weapon, and spellcasting? Or a large levitating reptilian creature with a dozen squirming eyestalks emerging from its spine, plus dragonfear and antimagic gaze attacks? An ugly wee beastie, either way. I shall look again upon the spell compendiums, although I'm allergic to one of them.

[/Ayrik]
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 09 Sep 2011 :  01:45:19  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It was a blue dragon with eyestalks on its head, and some other nasty beholder traits. Which one are you allergic to? I have all but one of them, and use them quite frequently, even for 3.5 ed!

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188

Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6428 Posts

Posted - 09 Sep 2011 :  07:47:06  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Haha, Alystra, having reexamined my library I was just reminded that my four volumes of the Wizard's Spell Compendium remain entirely wholesome. It is instead all (the remarkably similar) four volumes of my Encyclopedia Magica which are protected by strong allergy wards; they were tainted by a certain feline with noxious attitude and even more noxious fluid glands. A fitting punishment (I suppose) for the unforgivably abusive crime of allowing them to function as convenient props under the unbalanced legs of a friend's wobbly gaming table. They remain hermetically encapsulated behind complex layers of mystical ziplock seals, untouched now for perhaps a decade, I sadly have not the biological fortitude to endure any exposure to the magical writings contained therein.

I confess that I have oft considered obtaining ethereal copies of these particular tomes through illicit channels, although even possession of the genuine physical articles has not thus far been sufficient for me to reconcile the troublesome ethics (or brave the dark-planar dangers) found along this most dubious path towards accumulating knowledge.

I shall indeed peruse my volumes of the Wizard's Spell Compendium to refresh any vital lore I may have forgotten during my endless distractions with other scholarly pursuits. Perhaps more scrying into the happenings of dreadful Ravenloft might also be rewarding, as permitted by time away from my other studies.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 09 Sep 2011 07:49:36
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 09 Sep 2011 :  07:51:47  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Fellow scribes:

What do you think is the greatest spell ever invented/cast by a necromancer? I would have said Szass Tam's Ritual of Unmaking, but he was never able to cast it anyway.

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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 09 Sep 2011 :  22:51:22  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That little spell of Strahd's that I mentioned is high on my list. All kinds of fun ways for that to work- or NOT work, as the case may be! He came up with some other good ones, too- like a spell called "Mimic Living", which allows an undead being to mimic the life-aura of a living creature, thus hiding their undead nature. I believe he came up with a soul-switching spell, as well, but I forgot the name of it.

Ayrik, I know of at least one legit way to get said books in eather-form. If you are interested, pm me, and I'll link you. I understand your aversion to said feline's "marking" of the tomes. One of my former kitties did much the same to some of my own tomes. Have you tried using febreeze? Or better yet, there's a spray you can get that deodorizes such scents from many surfaces and items- including fabric- you might invest in a bottle or two and use it LIGHTLY on said tomes.

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188

Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6428 Posts

Posted - 09 Sep 2011 :  23:12:55  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
All the staple necromancy spells, of course; animate dead, vampiric touch, enervation, that sort of stuff. Not the greatest in terms of level and power, although I think the greatest in scope and impact.

My players and I have long agreed that necromancer spells basically suck until around 3rd level, then past about 5th-6th level they're okay but hardly comparable to what the other schools offer. Assuming the necromancer uses "stock" spells instead of inventing his own, of course. Dark cleric types are generally much more versatile in terms of spell lists; plus they're also tougher opponents to kill and can heal themselves ... in short, Necromancers are really not a great choice if you're looking for power. As implemented in D&D, at least.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 09 Sep 2011 23:25:44
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 09 Sep 2011 :  23:30:37  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's not the POWER of the necro, it's all their darn PETS that makes them so nasty!! I mean, why worry about that pesky adventuring group trying to kill you when you can just keep raising wave after wave of skellies and zombies to whittle them down? Tsk, Ayrik, you underestimate them....

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188

Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6428 Posts

Posted - 10 Sep 2011 :  00:03:53  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Agreed, the power to reanimate your fallen enemies to fight on your side is quite awesome.

Alas, it's not especially workable within D&D's Vancian magic system. There are limits, indeed very low limits, on how many minions can be animated, in some cases there are also limits imposed on maximum number or duration as well. Let's face it, when "wave after wave" really translates into about 1-6 zombies per casting there's not a lot of reason for the Necromancer's enemies to be particularly worried. An unusually high number of spells specifically counteract undead (or undead powers), and any decent Paladin or Priest can simply brandish his holy symbol to destroy or turn undead faster than a Necromancer of same level can manufacture them. The fault lies not in Necromancers, only in their implementation within the D&D game.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 10 Sep 2011 00:05:36
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