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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Sep 2011 : 16:13:36
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I think Shradin Mulophor deserves an honorable mention. It took the combined powers of the Skulls of Skullport to rid of him. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 07 Sep 2011 16:14:19 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2011 : 00:50:43
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| Regarding Strahd- yes, he is indeed a necromancer, at least if one looks at the number of necromancy spells he created, as per the 2nd ed Wizards' Spell Compendium collection. At least two of the volumes contain spells of his own devising, including Strahd's Malefic Meld, which is a rather fun and nasty spell to join two or more creatures together into one new creature. He is mentioned as using a blue dragon and beholder on more than one occasion as parts of the meld! (Apparently he's rather fond of that spell...) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2011 : 01:38:09
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| A blueholder? A scaly blue orb with dragon horns, wings, claws, lightning breath weapon, and spellcasting? Or a large levitating reptilian creature with a dozen squirming eyestalks emerging from its spine, plus dragonfear and antimagic gaze attacks? An ugly wee beastie, either way. I shall look again upon the spell compendiums, although I'm allergic to one of them. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2011 : 07:47:06
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Haha, Alystra, having reexamined my library I was just reminded that my four volumes of the Wizard's Spell Compendium remain entirely wholesome. It is instead all (the remarkably similar) four volumes of my Encyclopedia Magica which are protected by strong allergy wards; they were tainted by a certain feline with noxious attitude and even more noxious fluid glands. A fitting punishment (I suppose) for the unforgivably abusive crime of allowing them to function as convenient props under the unbalanced legs of a friend's wobbly gaming table. They remain hermetically encapsulated behind complex layers of mystical ziplock seals, untouched now for perhaps a decade, I sadly have not the biological fortitude to endure any exposure to the magical writings contained therein.
I confess that I have oft considered obtaining ethereal copies of these particular tomes through illicit channels, although even possession of the genuine physical articles has not thus far been sufficient for me to reconcile the troublesome ethics (or brave the dark-planar dangers) found along this most dubious path towards accumulating knowledge.
I shall indeed peruse my volumes of the Wizard's Spell Compendium to refresh any vital lore I may have forgotten during my endless distractions with other scholarly pursuits. Perhaps more scrying into the happenings of dreadful Ravenloft might also be rewarding, as permitted by time away from my other studies. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 09 Sep 2011 07:49:36 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2011 : 07:51:47
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Fellow scribes:
What do you think is the greatest spell ever invented/cast by a necromancer? I would have said Szass Tam's Ritual of Unmaking, but he was never able to cast it anyway. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2011 : 22:51:22
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That little spell of Strahd's that I mentioned is high on my list. All kinds of fun ways for that to work- or NOT work, as the case may be! He came up with some other good ones, too- like a spell called "Mimic Living", which allows an undead being to mimic the life-aura of a living creature, thus hiding their undead nature. I believe he came up with a soul-switching spell, as well, but I forgot the name of it.
Ayrik, I know of at least one legit way to get said books in eather-form. If you are interested, pm me, and I'll link you. I understand your aversion to said feline's "marking" of the tomes. One of my former kitties did much the same to some of my own tomes. Have you tried using febreeze? Or better yet, there's a spray you can get that deodorizes such scents from many surfaces and items- including fabric- you might invest in a bottle or two and use it LIGHTLY on said tomes. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2011 : 23:12:55
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All the staple necromancy spells, of course; animate dead, vampiric touch, enervation, that sort of stuff. Not the greatest in terms of level and power, although I think the greatest in scope and impact.
My players and I have long agreed that necromancer spells basically suck until around 3rd level, then past about 5th-6th level they're okay but hardly comparable to what the other schools offer. Assuming the necromancer uses "stock" spells instead of inventing his own, of course. Dark cleric types are generally much more versatile in terms of spell lists; plus they're also tougher opponents to kill and can heal themselves ... in short, Necromancers are really not a great choice if you're looking for power. As implemented in D&D, at least. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 09 Sep 2011 23:25:44 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2011 : 00:03:53
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Agreed, the power to reanimate your fallen enemies to fight on your side is quite awesome.
Alas, it's not especially workable within D&D's Vancian magic system. There are limits, indeed very low limits, on how many minions can be animated, in some cases there are also limits imposed on maximum number or duration as well. Let's face it, when "wave after wave" really translates into about 1-6 zombies per casting there's not a lot of reason for the Necromancer's enemies to be particularly worried. An unusually high number of spells specifically counteract undead (or undead powers), and any decent Paladin or Priest can simply brandish his holy symbol to destroy or turn undead faster than a Necromancer of same level can manufacture them. The fault lies not in Necromancers, only in their implementation within the D&D game. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 10 Sep 2011 00:05:36 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2011 : 04:39:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
It's not the POWER of the necro, it's all their darn PETS that makes them so nasty!! I mean, why worry about that pesky adventuring group trying to kill you when you can just keep raising wave after wave of skellies and zombies to whittle them down? Tsk, Ayrik, you underestimate them....
Indeed. In the novel Nagash the Sorcerer by Mike Lee, one of the factors that brought Nagash and his lieutenants victory is their seemingly endless supply of raise the dead spell. Dead enemies and allies alike are brought back to "life" to fight for them. Even the high priests from the enemy camp had difficulty countering the wave after wave of undead. Plus, most necromancers are also masters of other schools of magic, like abjuration and evocation. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 14 Sep 2011 04:56:48 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2011 : 14:38:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I'm thinking most people are confusing "favourite" with "most powerful".
A lot of people use that as their criteria for favorite.
As I do, most of the time. My primary criterion, though, is how well he's represented in fiction.
While I'd be lying if I said it wasn't something I took into consideration (I can't stand completely ineffectual characters), it's fairly low on my list compared to moral complexity and depth. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2011 : 14:52:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I'm thinking most people are confusing "favourite" with "most powerful".
A lot of people use that as their criteria for favorite.
As I do, most of the time. My primary criterion, though, is how well he's represented in fiction.
While I'd be lying if I said it wasn't something I took into consideration (I can't stand completely ineffectual characters), it's fairly low on my list compared to moral complexity and depth.
Some low level characters accomplished great feats [sometimes recorded in history, sometimes forgotten as the realms they hailed from], succeeded admirably where the powerful ones failed. So again, depth matters most. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2011 : 14:53:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I'm thinking most people are confusing "favourite" with "most powerful".
A lot of people use that as their criteria for favorite.
As I do, most of the time. My primary criterion, though, is how well he's represented in fiction.
While I'd be lying if I said it wasn't something I took into consideration (I can't stand completely ineffectual characters), it's fairly low on my list compared to moral complexity and depth.
Some low level characters accomplished great feats [sometimes recorded in history, sometimes forgotten as the realms they hailed from], succeeded admirably where the powerful ones failed. So again, depth matters most.
Thats what she said  |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2011 : 15:01:59
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
That's what she said.
Yes. I simply elucidated it further. And oh! CoA is male. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2011 : 15:23:26
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| Now that "Don't Ask Don't Tell" is officially over, this quote applies to "she said" and "he said" ;) |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2011 : 01:53:50
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Are evil necromancers generally cooler/more interesting than the good-aligned ones? Maybe the same goes to wizards of all schools of magic? |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 23 Sep 2011 01:56:39 |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2011 : 03:13:31
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Wow no mention of Vecna or his underling Acererak?
Vecna was born as a human, centuries ago as a member of the untouchable caste in the Flan city of Fleeth on Oerth. He was initially trained by his mother, Mazzel, in the art of magic, before she was executed by the government of Fleeth for practicing witchcraft. Vowing revenge, Vecna eventually assumed a mastery of the dark arts achieved by no mortal before or since. Some say this achievement was due to direct tutelage by Mok'slyk the Serpent, believed to be the personification of arcane magic itself.
Nearly one thousand years after his birth, Vecna, now a lich and ruler of a great and terrible empire (in the Sheldomar Valley, centered near the modern-day Rushmoors), laid siege to the city of Fleeth with an army of arcane spellcasters and undead. Legend has it that Vecna was nearly slain in this battle by clerics channeling the power of Pholtus, the god of light. The clerics unleashed a great burst of light, which hit Vecna primarily on his left side. Vecna was rescued and brought to safety by one of his wizard generals, a cambion named Acererak (who would one day himself become a mighty demilich).
Vecna eventually recovered. On the verge of conquering Fleeth, the officials of the city came before him to beg for mercy. They offered up the entire city and her wealth if only Vecna would spare the lives of her citizens. When Vecna was not satisfied, the officials offered their own lives. Vecna gave one of their number, Artau, and his family, over to his lieutenant, Kas, who spent the entire day torturing and murdering them before the other officials. Still unsatisfied, Vecna slaughtered all within the city, and had their heads stacked before the officials, with those of their family members prominent. Vecna then granted his mercy, granting the officials leave to depart, and promising them his protection for the rest of their lives.
At his empire's height, Vecna was betrayed and destroyed by his most trusted lieutenant, a vampire called Kas the Bloody-Handed, using a magical sword that Vecna himself had crafted for him, now known as the Sword of Kas. Only his left hand and his eye survived the battle, perhaps because of the previous events in Fleeth.
Vecna did not stay gone forever, and rose as a demigod of magic and secrets in the world of Greyhawk. In 581 CY, his cult helped set events in motion that would have granted him the power of a greater god, but the plan was ultimately foiled. After these events, Vecna ended up imprisoned in the demiplane of Ravenloft, but broke free again later, emerging with the power of a greater god, after absorbing the power of Iuz. He then broke free into the city of Sigil, where he came perilously close to rearranging all existence to his whims. (Vecna's multiverse shattering campaign in Sigil is used as an in-universe way to explain the differences between the 2nd and 3rd editions of Dungeons & Dragons.[citation needed]). When Vecna was ejected from Sigil by a party of adventurers, Iuz was freed and Vecna returned to Oerth greatly reduced in power, though still a lesser god.
In the events of the Living Greyhawk campaign setting, Vecna's machinations allowed him to reappear on the prime material plane and retake his place in the Oerth pantheon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vecna |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2011 : 03:31:31
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| Hmmm. I could name a handful of evil necros off the top of my head. Can't really think of any good-aligned ones worth remembering. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2011 : 03:39:42
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| Still don't see anything saying he's a necromancer. Being a master of dark arts and being undead implies necromancy, but there are other dark arts, and having a necro inclination isn't a requirement for becoming undead. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2011 : 04:46:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Still don't see anything saying he's a necromancer. Being a master of dark arts and being undead implies necromancy, but there are other dark arts, and having a necro inclination isn't a requirement for becoming undead.
At some point in his history, Vecna penned a tome known as Ordinary Necromancy. He is also rumored to have made significant additions to the Book of Vile Darkness. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2011 : 05:29:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Hmmm. I could name a handful of evil necros off the top of my head. Can't really think of any good-aligned ones worth remembering.
In the Realms, there are hardly any goodly necromancers, which makes sense since necromancy is a dark art and is almost always associated with evil. But in other settings, there are quite a lot. Though sometimes, they should have been called spirit-summoners. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2011 : 05:29:54
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Still don't see anything saying he's a necromancer. Being a master of dark arts and being undead implies necromancy, but there are other dark arts, and having a necro inclination isn't a requirement for becoming undead.
At some point in his history, Vecna penned a tome known as Ordinary Necromancy. He is also rumored to have made significant additions to the Book of Vile Darkness.
Not trying to be difficult, but I'm still not seeing where this makes him a necromancer. So he wrote a book about necromancy... Could have just been observations, or recordings of spells known to necromancers, or even an in-depth study of undead critters. I could write a book about flowers, but it wouldn't make me a florist, especially if I just compiled other people's stuff.
And again, dark arts and vile darkness include a lot more than just necromancy. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2011 : 06:05:31
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Still don't see anything saying he's a necromancer. Being a master of dark arts and being undead implies necromancy, but there are other dark arts, and having a necro inclination isn't a requirement for becoming undead.
At some point in his history, Vecna penned a tome known as Ordinary Necromancy. He is also rumored to have made significant additions to the Book of Vile Darkness.
I don't recall him being directly referenced as a necromancer, but his interest in such subjects may have resulted in Vecna becoming something of an "armchair necromancer"... for lack of a more appropriate term.
Not a necromancer in the true and practising sense of the word, but a "necromancer" by association given his somewhat more perverse interests in the manipulation of the force of undeath. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2011 : 06:38:13
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I would think that necromancers didn't really exist as a proper class back in Vecna's (1E) glory days [outside of the "necromancer" class attempts in D&D magazines] ... one had to make do with nicely evil dark bastard cleric sorts, and they generally managed to be really good at being really evil.
By the time necromancers were properly defined (in 2E), Vecna (along with the Greyhawk setting in general) were already fading into obsolescence under relentless tides of Realmslore. Subsequent attempts to reinvent Greyhawk in later editions seemed to receive mediocre reception at best, Vecna was promoted to godhood and descriptions of his history typically refer to him only as an archmage. Only Gygax would've had more precise information.
Though yeah, retconning Vecna into a necromancer seems quite fitting ... yet, it was never actually done in canon (that I know of). Consider also that Larloch (a purely 2E-3E invention, apparently also somewhat close to godhood) is noted for discovering much necromantic lore and publishing several monumental and revolutionary theses about/involving necromancy ... and yet he also was never categorically branded as a necromancer, his past class was "archwizard".
Vecna's artifacts, at least as originally defined in the 1E DMG, then evolved from 2E onwards, exhibit a wide array of magical effects and powers which include a good number of non-necromantic magics; in fact, these include a number of magics which strictly oppose the school of necromancy under 2E rules and would thus be impossible for normal necromancers to ever learn. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 23 Sep 2011 06:46:11 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2011 : 08:44:10
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During his lichdom, before his ascension, was he a "generalist" lich like Larloch, experimenting all forms of magic, or were most or all his undertakings had to do with undeath? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2011 : 04:16:29
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I think the question should be "Is practicing general Wizardry mutually exclusive from practicing Necromancy? Perhaps Vecna practiced both. But there is a lot of strong circumstantial evidence that he had no small expertise in necromancy.
The creation and use of powerful undead underlings and writing a book about necromancy is enough for me. Having an underling who was the prime antagonist in "Tomb of Horrors", an Arch Demilich himself... But I see some of your points Wooly , he still might not have been. Either way I still love the guy, quite the evil and mysterious badass. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2011 : 23:19:51
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Hmm. I didn't know he was NOT a necromancer. I thought being a god of undeath, he's a necromancer by default. Then again, my mistake. I often associate undeath with necromancy. But isn't it the case at first. Dabbling with magic relating to undeath, one has to be a necromancer. From there, he could explore other forms/schools of magic. While he's still practicing necromancy, he can now be called a generalist for practicing other forms of the Art. So it's possible that at first, or sometime in his rather long existence, he had been a Neromancer. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2011 : 04:41:08
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| There is nothing that keeps a generalist wizard from casting necromantic spells. And there's nothing that keeps a necromancer from casting regular spells. The difference is that the necromancer focuses so much on necromatic spells that he's actually weaker in non-necromantic areas. If I read about Vecna raising armies of undead, I'd agree that he was likely a necromancer. Slapping his name on a book and doing nothing else noticably focused on the dead is less than convincing. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Your Favorite Male Necromancer (In All Settings)
