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Dennis
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Posted - 20 Aug 2011 :  12:51:41  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic

Is time travel restricted in the Realms? If yes, who or what restricts it? And why? It's just that I very rarely see it being utilized in FR fiction, unlike the Magic: The Gathering novels, which almost always make use of it, in both grand and subtle ways. In MtG, they call it clockworking, and nearly every time it's used, it makes the plot interesting.

Off the top of my head I can recall only two instances. One is when Karsus used it to “get” his star and Candlemas (Dangerous Games). And the other is when Cera, a priestess of Amaunator, and Aoth employed it to spy on the dragons during their secret convocation (Whisper of Venom).

Time traveling could have undone a lot of realms-shattering events...or maybe worsened them... Whichever is the case, I guess one way or another, it could have helped develop some elements in the plot of some FR novels.

Every beginning has an end.

Thelonius
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Spain
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Posted - 20 Aug 2011 :  12:55:16  Show Profile  Click to see Thelonius's MSN Messenger address Send Thelonius a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Got to say that now I think of it, I really never saw time-travel used in the realms. Maybe it has to do with the fact that the Realms are a very complex and full of shattering events, time-travel could make things complicated as there are a lot of implications, and maybe so the readers don't see them like a panacea "SpellPlague? Hey just time-travel and solved". Is the good thing of such a complicated and well put together world.

"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 20 Aug 2011 :  13:03:02  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius

Got to say that now I think of it, I really never saw time-travel used in the realms. Maybe it has to do with the fact that the Realms are a very complex and full of shattering events, time-travel could make things complicated as there are a lot of implications, and maybe so the readers don't see them like a panacea "SpellPlague? Hey just time-travel and solved". Is the good thing of such a complicated and well put together world.



I don't think it's as easy as that. I don't know if you're a fan of MtG as well, but MtG also has a lot of world/plane-shattering events. Time-traveling rarely solved those cataclysmic phenomena, because it's not a guarantee that when one bad event was undone, no other bad event would occur. The Toralians, who are masters in magic relating to the manipulation of time, knew that pretty well. Even clock-working sphinxes embraced that notion. So no, time travel is not a panacea. Nevertheless, its use alone could lead to some unexpected and interesting things.

Every beginning has an end.
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Thelonius
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Spain
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Posted - 20 Aug 2011 :  13:12:41  Show Profile  Click to see Thelonius's MSN Messenger address Send Thelonius a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius

Got to say that now I think of it, I really never saw time-travel used in the realms. Maybe it has to do with the fact that the Realms are a very complex and full of shattering events, time-travel could make things complicated as there are a lot of implications, and maybe so the readers don't see them like a panacea "SpellPlague? Hey just time-travel and solved". Is the good thing of such a complicated and well put together world.



I don't think it's as easy as that. I don't know if you're a fan of MtG as well, but MtG also has a lot of world/plane-shattering events. Time-traveling rarely solved those cataclysmic phenomena, because it's not a guarantee that when one bad event was undone, no other bad event would occur. The Toralians, who are masters in magic relating to the manipulation of time, knew that pretty well. Even clock-working sphinxes embraced that notion. So no, time travel is not a panacea. Nevertheless, its use alone could lead to some unexpected and interesting things.


I'm not a follower of MtG besides the card game itself wich I play, but there is a time-travel rule that says you can't actually supress the reason of the travel itself. I use that rule to annoy my game fellows But anyways there are too many ramifications to make it somehow not messy perhaps.

"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est
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Cronje
Seeker

56 Posts

Posted - 20 Aug 2011 :  13:19:38  Show Profile Send Cronje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The reason for there being so little example of time travel being used is because of the death of Mystryl. After Karsus used a ridiculously powerful spell to steal her divinity from her, Mystryl sacrificed herself rather than let Karsus become a deity. When her successor, Mystra, came into power, she put an upper limit on spell power and altered the Weave so that time travel was impossible.

I can't think of any examples of anyone time traveling using magic not focused through the Weave or anyone using it since the Weave's collapse, but it might be possible again.

Edited by - Cronje on 20 Aug 2011 13:20:24
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 20 Aug 2011 :  13:30:04  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Cronje

I can't think of any examples of anyone time traveling using magic not focused through the Weave or anyone using it since the Weave's collapse, but it might be possible again.


Yes, with a deity's aid, as evidenced in the second example I gave. Amaunator/Lathander has time as part of his portfolios. Beside that, I guess some arcane spellcasters who utilize the Shadow Weave could do it, too.

Every beginning has an end.

Edited by - Dennis on 20 Aug 2011 13:31:32
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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 20 Aug 2011 :  13:36:46  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius

I'm not a follower of MtG besides the card game itself wich I play, but there is a time-travel rule that says you can't actually supress the reason of the travel itself.


It wasn't stated that way in the novels, but more or less they mean the same. Tying to undo the past, even if it's the greatest clockworker who does it, would not ensure it would be undone. There might be changes, but the end result would still be the same. Or the changes themselves could worsen the end result.

Every beginning has an end.
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AdamBridger
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
118 Posts

Posted - 20 Aug 2011 :  13:57:03  Show Profile Send AdamBridger a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis



Off the top of my head I can recall only two instances. One is when Karsus used it to “get” his star and Candlemas (Dangerous Games). And the other is when Cera, a priestess of Amaunator, and Aoth employed it to spy on the dragons during their secret convocation (Whisper of Venom).



In Whisper of Venom if i recall correctly it was not time travelling as such but rather a spell that allowed Cera and Aoth to observe an event in the past - their bodies stayed in the present. However, that being said the dragons did notice their spiritual presence in the past so it could count as a form of time travelling as they influenced events.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
32277 Posts

Posted - 20 Aug 2011 :  14:13:57  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Time travel is possible in the Realms, but with restrictions. Some of that is discussed in the Netheril boxed set. There is also the Portals in Time subseries of the Perilous Gateways, though I felt some of the earlier lore was ignored when those articles were written.

And though they are 2E and not Realms-specific, the Chronomancy rules are still on the WotC website. You can find the link in the Previous Edition Downloads -- Current Links thread.


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Eltheron
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740 Posts

Posted - 20 Aug 2011 :  14:14:38  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Time travel in the Realms has always been extremely limited, by Mystryl herself (and then presumably later by Mystra-1, Mystra-2 and Amaunator in 4E). Rules for it were established in 2E, and whether it's by chronomancy (9th lvl "time conduit" spells) or by time gates (and there are several) you basically can live up to a year in the past and affect events "locally" but you can never alter the real, primary timeline.

See "Arcane Age: Netheril, Empire of Magic" boxed set from 2E for the rules.


"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 20 Aug 2011 :  14:27:33  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AdamBridger

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis



Off the top of my head I can recall only two instances. One is when Karsus used it to “get” his star and Candlemas (Dangerous Games). And the other is when Cera, a priestess of Amaunator, and Aoth employed it to spy on the dragons during their secret convocation (Whisper of Venom).



In Whisper of Venom if i recall correctly it was not time travelling as such but rather a spell that allowed Cera and Aoth to observe an event in the past - their bodies stayed in the present. However, that being said the dragons did notice their spiritual presence in the past so it could count as a form of time travelling as they influenced events.


Exactly. That's why I count it as time traveling. To travel in time stream does not mean one has to do it in his/her physical form.

Every beginning has an end.
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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 20 Aug 2011 :  14:33:20  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Thanks for the links, Wooly. [Browsing them now...]

Every beginning has an end.
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AdamBridger
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
118 Posts

Posted - 20 Aug 2011 :  15:06:27  Show Profile Send AdamBridger a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by AdamBridger

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis



Off the top of my head I can recall only two instances. One is when Karsus used it to “get” his star and Candlemas (Dangerous Games). And the other is when Cera, a priestess of Amaunator, and Aoth employed it to spy on the dragons during their secret convocation (Whisper of Venom).



In Whisper of Venom if i recall correctly it was not time travelling as such but rather a spell that allowed Cera and Aoth to observe an event in the past - their bodies stayed in the present. However, that being said the dragons did notice their spiritual presence in the past so it could count as a form of time travelling as they influenced events.


Exactly. That's why I count it as time traveling. To travel in time stream does not mean one has to do it in his/her physical form.



Time travel doesn't have to only be back in time. There has been occasions where people have gone forward through time.

The one that stands out for me is at the end of Shadowrealm you find out that Mask has transported Erevis Cale's former lover (sorry can't remember her name at the moment) into the future, thereby saving her from the Shadowstorm.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
32277 Posts

Posted - 20 Aug 2011 :  15:06:30  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Thanks for the links, Wooly. [Browsing them now...]



There was some good stuff in the Perilous Gateways series. And there's some stuff that... isn't as good.

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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 20 Aug 2011 :  15:24:36  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AdamBridger

Time travel doesn't have to only be back in time. There has been occasions where people have gone forward through time.

The one that stands out for me is at the end of Shadowrealm you find out that Mask has transported Erevis Cale's former lover (sorry can't remember her name at the moment) into the future, thereby saving her from the Shadowstorm.



Indeed. I remember that scene. Her name's Vara, by the way.

MtG often uses future time travel. It's quite interesting, specially the characters (mostly iconic in the planes) who dabble with it.

Every beginning has an end.
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AdamBridger
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
118 Posts

Posted - 20 Aug 2011 :  15:32:23  Show Profile Send AdamBridger a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
[br
Indeed. I remember that scene. Her name's Vara, by the way.




Thanks for that. My copy of the book is at the bottom of a big stack of books with a couple of stacks either side - didn't feel like digging through all of that for a name.

Does prophecy count as time travel? Using knowledge of the future to affect the future does count as interference but does any "travel" actually take place?

Edited by - AdamBridger on 20 Aug 2011 15:33:17
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
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Australia
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Posted - 20 Aug 2011 :  15:44:50  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'll note, also, that Ed has said previously stated that as of 1370s DR, Mystra had officially "shutdown" time travel to the point that time conduit no longer worked and there was something up with the time gates.

How this relates to the status of time travel in the post-Spellplague Realms and the "death" of Mystra, remains to be seen.

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Dennis
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Posted - 20 Aug 2011 :  15:47:16  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AdamBridger

Does prophecy count as time travel? Using knowledge of the future to affect the future does count as interference but does any "travel" actually take place?


I don't think so. Prophecy is a province of the school of divination. As I understand it, time travel involves traveling through time -either past or future- with your spirit or physical form, or in the case of the gods, with their avatars. By traveling, you don't only see (as the case of divination) an event in the past or future, but you also live in it.

Every beginning has an end.
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Dennis
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Posted - 20 Aug 2011 :  15:50:31  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

I'll note, also, that Ed has said previously stated that as of 1370s DR, Mystra had officially "shutdown" time travel to the point that time conduit no longer worked and there was something up with the time gates.

How this relates to the status of time travel in the post-Spellplague Realms and the "death" of Mystra, remains to be seen.


Thanks, Sage. I'll try to formulate some conjectures as to its current status after I peruse some old tomes.

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The Sage
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Posted - 20 Aug 2011 :  15:50:36  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AdamBridger

Does prophecy count as time travel? Using knowledge of the future to affect the future does count as interference but does any "travel" actually take place?

I wouldn't think so.

It's important to note that even attempting to provide specific information about any of the prophecies has been exceedingly difficult, for the most part. After all, it's not unheard of for Alaundo's/Augathra's prophecies to have a number of different ways they're interpreted/seen.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 21 Aug 2011 :  04:50:55  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AdamBridger

Does prophecy count as time travel? Using knowledge of the future to affect the future does count as interference but does any "travel" actually take place?



I would say no. You are not personally leaving your own timeframe...

Does looking in the window of a house put you inside that house?

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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2011 :  06:33:10  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Page 13 of Netheril: Empire of Magic states:
quote:

Magical items couldn’t go with the travelers‚ and memorized spells were wiped from memory (many theorize that this stored mental energy is actually what powers the spell). Armor and weapons that didn’t exist at the destination likewise couldn’t go with the time traveler (so full- and field-plate armor can never go back in time to Netheril). Spell books and scrolls could go back in time, but spells that don’t exist at the destination time simply appear as blank pages (such spells reappear when the time traveler returns to his own time).

If so, when Karsus transported the “star” through time, the said star should have been stripped of all its magical properties when it arrived at Karsus's time frame. Does this mean Karsus found a way to bypass the restrictions that Mystryl placed in time traveling? Did he use a different spell far more advanced than the time conduit? Was the star too potent that it couldn't be subjected to the restrictions? Or did Mystryl impose the new restrictions after Karsus ferried the star?

Every beginning has an end.

Edited by - Dennis on 11 Sep 2011 12:43:21
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Ayrik
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Canada
6835 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2011 :  12:31:03  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Does prophecy count as time travel? Using knowledge of the future to affect the future does count as interference but does any "travel" actually take place?
I personally think prophecy is absolutely a form of time travel, a universe which admits either one must allow both. Because being able to simultaneously possess accurate knowledge of conditions at present and future points in timespace would invalidate the uncertainty principle; it would be an application of causality in the reverse direction relative to normal timeflow. The laws of a universe with prophesy would dictate that once a prophesy is actually known it has already happened (it is already happening and will have already happened) and is inescapably fated, physicists might argue that apparent success at defying fate indicates nothing more than inaccurate prophesies or flawed interpretations of the same. I would suggest a correlation between accuracy of prophesy and variability in the parameters which affect it; the more exacting and unambiguous the prophesy the more likely it will occur exactly as stated. Any universe which allows prophesy probably has to follow a "Law of Conservation of Prophesy" which dictates that the more vague the prophesy the more parameters can affect change to its predicted outcome.

Humans (and similar beings) are generally quite terrible at prophesy, gods and other high-order entities are marginally better at it; it's likely a measure of capacity to extend perceptions beyond the immediate. Note that humans are also quite lousy at truly understanding the past, and are even inclined to constantly challenge the validity of records from the past, so much worse when a prophesy about the future was written in the past. It might be argued that human ability to "defy" prophesy stems from stubborn inability to live beyond the immediate moment (and the small envelope of time within its proximity), we basically do what we want to do now while blindly disregarding any wisdom offered by the past and future, it's probably why prophesies involving humans are always so vaguely cryptic.

Does the handful of Norse deities adopted into Faerűn (Tyr, Helm/Heimdall, Kezef/Fenrir, etc) indicate that the Realms will be involved in the prophesy of Ragnarok?

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 11 Sep 2011 12:38:29
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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2011 :  12:37:57  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

The thing with prophecy is, there's no guarantee that it will really happen. Whereas actual time-traveling obviously makes it clear that the event will happen because you become part of it, you get to live in the time frame by which it is bound.

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_Jarlaxle_
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Germany
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Posted - 12 Sep 2011 :  09:16:37  Show Profile Send _Jarlaxle_ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Or did Mystryl impose the new restrictions after Karsus ferried the star?


I would guess this is it.
An other explanaition could be that the star existed in Karsus timeframe too, it was just somewhere else or there where others somewhere in space...

Edited by - _Jarlaxle_ on 12 Sep 2011 09:17:03
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Ayrik
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Canada
6835 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2011 :  01:36:51  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Ayrik

Does the handful of Norse deities adopted into Faerűn (Tyr, Helm/Heimdall, Kezef/Fenrir, etc) indicate that the Realms will be involved in the prophesy of Ragnarok?
I gotta say I love quoting myself, it makes me seem smart and stuff.

But more about this question of Ragnarok prophesy ... could Cyric be seen as the Realms counterpart of Loki, particularly since he released Kezef? Tyr and Helm have also played parts similar to those predicted in Ragnarok. Amaunator might be seen as Odin and Lathander as Baldur (in terms of the Realmsified roles they comprise within this prophesy), Tempus (or Talos?) as Thor, Shar as Hel, Silvanus and Chauntea as Frey and Freya, etc

Just sayin' that although it's an imperfect fit, it might be that Ragnarok is indeed prophesied within the Realms. Perhaps, just as likely, it has already come to pass?

Incidentally, is there any Realms equivalent to the goddess-triad Norns or Fates?

[/Ayrik]
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