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Cronje
Seeker
56 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Aug 2011 : 21:56:02
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Are there any sourcebooks that give a history of the Nine Hells. Barring the existence of a sourcebook, perhaps an old Dragon or Dungeon article? Specifically, I'm looking for information on how the Hells came to exist in the Realms, who the major players back then were, etc.
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2011 : 02:25:46
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| Although it seems to contradict some of the current lore, the 2e sourcebook Guide to Hell is full of great lore regarding Baator, Asmo and Jaziran. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Cronje
Seeker
56 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2011 : 02:31:01
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| Thanks for the quick response! Unfortunately, that looks like a generic book, rather than a Realms-specific one. Are there anything setting-specific sources? Or is the Realms Hells the same (with some minor tweaking) as the generic Hells? |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2011 : 03:58:44
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2E Planescape material discusses Baator (The Nine Hells) in great detail. However it does not specifically address the Realms, aside from tangential references, because it is of course written for Planescape campaigns instead of the happenings of "clueless" Primes. There are some (sometimes conflicting) myths about Asmodeus and other fallen celestials, the formation (or colonization) of Baator, and - more than anything else - the endless turmoil of the eternally fiendish Blood War which often spills across many worlds and many planes.
2E Arcane Ages material describes several great (and numerous minor) battles waged against legions and hordes of fiends. These invasions were a central and recurring theme in the fall of Myth Drannor, and perhaps also several great elven nations.
Hell's Gate, known as Ascalhorn to ancient Netheril, also has a notable history involving countless fiends spilling forth through permanent gates to rampage throughout the North; the most recent and possibly well known being the resurgence of daemonfey and fey'ri from somewhere within its unholy depths.
Speaking of treacherous elves and unholy depths, there are surprisingly large populations of devils and demons and daemons of all sorts living in the Underdark and Undermountain. No doubt the evil drow and Halaster are to blame for this.
Old Thay, and presumably even older Mulhorand, have all sorts of associations with fiends. Of particular note is the city Eltab, which is in fact a massive magical glyph inscribed from the roads and buildings and waterways and vitality of the city itself ... this glyph imprisoned a fiend of apocalyptic power named Eltab, so fearful that the Red Wizards were especially diligent in maintaining the glyph's integrity by preventing civic renovation and even outlawing maps and drawings of the city layout. Apparently each copy of the glyph resonates part of its power, and so a map of the city burnt by candle or ruined by spilled ale would diminish the power of the magics binding Eltab ... therefore all such maps were confiscated and mapmakers punished in unusually cruel and creative ways.
The pool of radiance and any number of similar pools scattered throughout the Moonsea area and beyond appear to serve as portals to lower planes. The history of the region is dominated by malevolent beings such as Tyranthraxus and the Seven Lost Gods who emerged from or are somehow linked to these pools. It is quite possible that these entities (and vast armies of other fiends) serve Bane, god of tyranny throughout the region.
Not too far away are the neighbouring Cold Lands. Bloodstone Pass, which links Vaasa and Damara, is the classic location of the venerable (D&D H-Series) Bloodstone modules. The Witch-King Zhengyi was once prominent in the area and particularly fond of lower planar servants. Ancient histories of the region involve large populations, if not an entire civilization, of genies and other entities who originally came from foreign planes. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2011 : 03:59:19
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| I've generally just adapted the generic and Planescape sources for use in my Realms. After all, the Hells are connected to many Spheres. Unfortunately, I'm not a 4e player, therefore unfamiliar with many of the recent changes. That was always my goto book. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2011 : 04:13:19
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It's also worth making note of cambions, alu-fiends, and tieflings. Cambions and alu-demons existed in 1E AD&D, although really only as monsters instead of as characters. Tieflings in 2E were pretty much only involved in Planescape campaigns, no doubt some existed in the Realms but their lower planar blood would be difficult to conceal for long, so again, basically monsters. Later D&D editions evolved tieflings from outcast monsters into solitary unfortunates into entire clans and populations descended from fiendish ancestors.
I'm not sure which D&D edition or which canon approach you prefer in your Realms, but considering the origins (and numbers) of any tieflings in your Realms will say a lot about how active fiends may have been throughout history. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2011 : 13:32:37
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| Ed's articles about Baator, Dragon 75, 76, 91 |
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Cronje
Seeker
56 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2011 : 18:19:47
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| Brilliant! This is perfect, thanks! |
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Cronje
Seeker
56 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2011 : 20:04:58
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| On a related note, what about the origins of the Abyss? |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2011 : 21:57:58
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I should point out that Planescape lore is fairly comprehensive, but it technically applies only to 2E. The Manual of the Planes has been released for each major D&D edition and often presents lore which is blatantly contrary to that published in other editions. In fact, the entire D&D cosmos has been reshaped and reinvented almost from scratch several times. Then there's countless third-party publications which could be used as standalone replacements or optional addons or as anything in between. Pathfinder products are overwhelmingly popular, perhaps even moreso than the classic Planescape material, and they are largely penned by a scribe (known within Candlekeep as Shemmy) whose knowledge of planar things is entirely unsurpassed. Planescape is my personal preference, but I must admit it's basically a "dead product" (long ago abandoned by the authors, and company, who created it) whereas Shemmy is responsive to questions whenever his planar wanderings don't take him away from the keep.
So in summary - the activities of fiends throughout the Realms and other worlds, the origins of the bottomless Abyss, and any other questions you might have about the infinite planes really boil down to whichever references you prefer to adopt as canon. If the focus of your campaign will remain any single world, such as Toril, then it's probably best to arbitrarily fit things in whichever fashion they seem to fit best. Conversely, if you plan to move your campaign across different planes and worlds then you would be well served by working from Planescape (or Spelljammer) or Pathfinder materials, they are simply so creative and comprehensively detailed that you would be hard pressed to invent better in any homebrew setting. Planewalker and the various online wiki pages can always be of use if brief monster entries and module descriptions do not suffice. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 07 Aug 2011 22:10:57 |
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Cronje
Seeker
56 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2011 : 22:08:05
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| I consider anything published by TSR/WotC under the Forgotten Realms banner, and everything published by Ed, as canon as it to pertains to my campaign. That's why I was so excited about Quale's post (thanks again, by the way!). |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2011 : 10:33:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Cronje
Are there any sourcebooks that give a history of the Nine Hells. Barring the existence of a sourcebook, perhaps an old Dragon or Dungeon article? Specifically, I'm looking for information on how the Hells came to exist in the Realms, who the major players back then were, etc.
The best sources imo are a combination of the late 3.5 'Fiendish Codex II', and the 2e 'Hellbound: The Blood War' and 'Faces of Evil: The Fiends'. There's also a little bit in Dungeon magazine in late 3.5 and in Fiendish Codex I that confirms and clarifies some of the origins for the Ancient Baatorians and a pre-Asmodeus/pre-Baatezu 9 Hells of Baator. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2011 : 10:37:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Cronje
Thanks for the quick response! Unfortunately, that looks like a generic book, rather than a Realms-specific one. Are there anything setting-specific sources? Or is the Realms Hells the same (with some minor tweaking) as the generic Hells?
The majority of the older information assumes a common multiverse in which FR is one world among many, with Hell being, well, Hell. The 4e lore goes off on its own, mixes in core PoL stuff, and there are a lot of continuity issues with the earlier sources. Rationalize and adapt as you will, but I suppose it depends on what era of the Realms that you're using (or what edition you play). |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2011 : 10:42:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Cronje
On a related note, what about the origins of the Abyss?
Fiendish Codex I from 3.x is probably the best source.
Synthesizing from details from other sources in 2e and 3e though, the earliest denizens of the Abyss (the obyriths) were seeded there by the earliest fiends from the Gray Waste (who likewise seeded the pre-Asmodeus Hell with the ancient baatorians). Demons/Tanar'ri appeared much later on once mortal souls begin to appear on the outer planes, and it's possible that the first tanar'ri were created (or birthed) by the obyrith lord Pale Knight (mother of the tanar'ri lords Graz'zt, Lupercio, and Vucarik). |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Milith holder of HB8
Seeker
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2011 : 03:23:09
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It is worth noting that the 3e Abyss was reconned heavily by 4e. All demons are now really corrupt elementals/primordials/devils/angels/gods depending on the source. As far as a retconn goes, it's pretty good I think. We still have demons who are clearly Obyriths, but to my knowledge they haven't really explained the difference of the two or why there is a difference. But all in all, you could probably just kitbash the two concepts. Ie, the Obyriths might have been a larger and more powerful force when the Abyss was first created, but was quickly replaced by the Tanar'ri.
We do know, as per MMII that Dagon was the first known Obyrith to exist. It's also suggested that it was possible that Dagon existed before the Abyss proper was there, having come from another place, so it's possible that the Obyriths are from an entirely different dimension and the evil seed the Elemental Eye planted opened a gateway for them. Or perhaps rebirthed them from a previous age. |
Hey, babe, see my shiny teeth as I smile my very best wolf smile- Ed Greenwood. |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2011 : 03:56:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Milith holder of HB8
It is worth noting that the 3e Abyss was reconned heavily by 4e. All demons are now really corrupt elementals/primordials/devils/angels/gods depending on the source. As far as a retconn goes, it's pretty good I think. We still have demons who are clearly Obyriths, but to my knowledge they haven't really explained the difference of the two or why there is a difference. But all in all, you could probably just kitbash the two concepts. Ie, the Obyriths might have been a larger and more powerful force when the Abyss was first created, but was quickly replaced by the Tanar'ri.
We do know, as per MMII that Dagon was the first known Obyrith to exist. It's also suggested that it was possible that Dagon existed before the Abyss proper was there, having come from another place, so it's possible that the Obyriths are from an entirely different dimension and the evil seed the Elemental Eye planted opened a gateway for them. Or perhaps rebirthed them from a previous age.
Most of the information on the 4e Abyss however is for the default PoL setting. Not so much a retcon of pre-4e material as it is material for a wholly different game with no assumed continuity with any of the pre-4e sources, unlike 1e->2e->3e which were still talking about the same cosmology and shared multiverse more or less, versus the 4e versus anything else situation we're in now. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Milith holder of HB8
Seeker
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2011 : 09:23:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
quote:
Originally posted by Milith holder of HB8
It is worth noting that the 3e Abyss was reconned heavily by 4e. All demons are now really corrupt elementals/primordials/devils/angels/gods depending on the source. As far as a retconn goes, it's pretty good I think. We still have demons who are clearly Obyriths, but to my knowledge they haven't really explained the difference of the two or why there is a difference. But all in all, you could probably just kitbash the two concepts. Ie, the Obyriths might have been a larger and more powerful force when the Abyss was first created, but was quickly replaced by the Tanar'ri.
We do know, as per MMII that Dagon was the first known Obyrith to exist. It's also suggested that it was possible that Dagon existed before the Abyss proper was there, having come from another place, so it's possible that the Obyriths are from an entirely different dimension and the evil seed the Elemental Eye planted opened a gateway for them. Or perhaps rebirthed them from a previous age.
Most of the information on the 4e Abyss however is for the default PoL setting. Not so much a retcon of pre-4e material as it is material for a wholly different game with no assumed continuity with any of the pre-4e sources, unlike 1e->2e->3e which were still talking about the same cosmology and shared multiverse more or less, versus the 4e versus anything else situation we're in now.
It's very unlikely that Wizards is going to keep it that way. |
Hey, babe, see my shiny teeth as I smile my very best wolf smile- Ed Greenwood. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2011 : 12:35:21
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| some of the changes are are understandable, it's weird how they made archons chaotic evil, that's all |
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History of the Nine Hells
